Is Floyd top 5 of all time????

[Zeferino]

My point exactly. All due respect dude but you are being a hypocrite... How is it cool and meaningful for Pac to fight the SAME GUYS, AFTER PBF BEAT THEM, and they were meaningless fights for Floyd but relevant for Pac. Shit, why isn't there an outcry for Pac to clean up the division? It doesn't make sense what you are saying. Even though Pac is my favorite fighter at this point, he has fought his share of bums, he moves up and takes the easiest challenge in David Diaz, but he is revered for his win, he fights Oscar and Hatton AFTER Floyd beat them, but he is cool. And, he made Cotto meet him at a catch weight, instead of fighting him at the limit!?!??! But that's cool. If Floyd did those things, we would have 50 threads calling him names and shit! How can a fight be relevant for one fighter and not the other, and BOTH fighters are in the debate for PFP best right now? Help me understand that Dude?

Easy.

Hatton: It was more meaningful for Pac to beat Hatton because he beat Hatton at his BEST WEIGHT where Hatton was champ and he obliterated him there. There's no way you can compare that to Mayweather making Hatton fight him at 147 where Hatton almost got his world rocked by Luis Collazo of all people and subsequently swore he would never go back to 147 because it wasn't the right weight class for him.

De La Hoya It was meaningful for both but for different reasons. However, I was very disappointed with Mayweather's performance. Compare what a young Mosley did to a young DLH with what a young Mayweather did with an old DLH. I thought it was a very crappy performance for someone that is supposedly so skilled.

Also, you pick out Jorge Solis off of boxrec and that's supposed to prove some kind of point. You can pick an unknown boxer off of anybody's resume.

Welterweight is anything over 140 and up to 147. Anything between there can be contractually played with and is still considered welterweight. This is done all the time. Sometimes on ESPN, they'll say "the fight is scheduled for the lightweight division give or take a pound" or something like that. Cotto weighed the same as he had for previous welterweight fights against Pac. That wasn't even an issue.

 

[Zeferino]

Dude, Tito is not garnering any HOF buzz due to those wins. He is more respected for his DeLaHoya loss than his Reid, Vargas wins... Those wins proved nothing.

Nothing to you, I guess. However, Tito's work at 154lb vaulted him up the pound for pound rankings and definitely increased his legend. Maybe I'll post a few old Ring magazine articles and rankings to refresh your memory.

 

[TJervey]

Easy.

Hatton: It was more meaningful for Pac to beat Hatton because he beat Hatton at his BEST WEIGHT where Hatton was champ and he obliterated him there. There's no way you can compare that to Mayweather making Hatton fight him at 147 where Hatton almost got his world rocked by Luis Collazo of all people and subsequently swore he would never go back to 147 because it wasn't the right weight class for him.

De La Hoya It was meaningful for both but for different reasons. However, I was very disappointed with Mayweather's performance. Compare what a young Mosley did to a young DLH with what a young Mayweather did with an old DLH. I thought it was a very crappy performance for someone that is supposedly so skilled.

Also, you pick out Jorge Solis off of boxrec and that's supposed to prove some kind of point. You can pick an unknown boxer off of anybody's resume.

Welterweight is anything over 140 and up to 147. Anything between there can be contractually played with and is still considered welterweight. This is done all the time. Sometimes on ESPN, they'll say "the fight is scheduled for the lightweight division give or take a pound" or something like that. Cotto weighed the same as he had for previous welterweight fights against Pac. That wasn't even an issue.

No.... I picked Solis because I follow the sport and Pac. Why the outcry for Floyd to clean out the division, but I don't hear Dude's like you yelling for Pac to fight a Paul Williams, or a Martinez, etc. Plus, At welterweight, who has Pac really fought to indicate such a higher level of Comp over Floyd? Cotto to me got a gift in his fight leading up to the Pac fight and Oscar was damn sure past his shelf life when they fought? Help me understand this?!?!?!

 

[Zeferino]

Also, who else's career did Trinidad ruin? Joppy? Already on the down swing...

Joppy was like on his 5th defense and had never been stopped. Trinidad's win was so impressive that people started thinking he could beat Roy Jones.

 

[Zeferino]

No.... I picked Solis because I follow the sport and Pac. Why the outcry for Floyd to clean out the division, but I don't hear Dude's like you yelling for Pac to fight a Paul Williams, or a Martinez, etc. Plus, At welterweight, who has Pac really fought to indicate such a higher level of Comp over Floyd? Cotto to me got a gift in his fight leading up to the Pac fight and Oscar was damn sure past his shelf life when they fought? Help me understand this?!?!?!

Pac just got to welterweight and he fought a more credible welterweight in Cotto before Mayweather finally got to one last Saturday after being in the division for like FIVE YEARS. If Pac's competition wasn't so great, then why do you guys swear he had to be on PED's to beat them? You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.

I already broke down the significance of the Cotto and Oscar wins.

 

[TJervey]

Pac just got to welterweight and he fought a more credible welterweight in Cotto before Mayweather finally got to one last Saturday after being in the division for like FIVE YEARS. If Pac's competition wasn't so great, then why do you guys swear he had to be on PED's to beat them? You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.

I already broke down the significance of the Cotto and Oscar wins.

Dude, I've never said he was on PED's. I've actually argued against it. Basically, just like Floyd, Roach is also good at matching Pac against guys who are tailor made for him. Every one of his last 5 fights have been tailored for him... The difference is, Pac is more likable than Floyd, so the urge is to see Floyd get beat to shut his mouth, whereas Pac's humility and good nature makes him easier to like and celebrate. Again, I am definitely more of a Pac fan than a Floyd fan, I just can't be a fool and discount how special a fighter Floyd is.

 

[TJervey]

Pac just got to welterweight and he fought a more credible welterweight in Cotto before Mayweather finally got to one last Saturday after being in the division for like FIVE YEARS. If Pac's competition wasn't so great, then why do you guys swear he had to be on PED's to beat them? You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.

I already broke down the significance of the Cotto and Oscar wins.

Also instead of going after a damaged goods, slow assed Cotto why didn't Roach go after Berto, an undefeated fast young belt holder? Careful matchmaking Dude...

 

[Zeferino]

Dude, I've never said he was on PED's. I've actually argued against it. Basically, just like Floyd, Roach is also good at matching Pac against guys who are tailor made for him. Every one of his last 5 fights have been tailored for him... The difference is, Pac is more likable than Floyd, so the urge is to see Floyd get beat to shut his mouth, whereas Pac's humility and good nature makes him easier to like and celebrate. Again, I am definitely more of a Pac fan than a Floyd fan, I just can't be a fool and discount how special a fighter Floyd is.

I agree that Pac being more likable helps. However, personally, I just appreciate Pac more in the sense that he does what supposed to be done in the traditional sense. What I mean is, if you have an old fighter in front of you and you are a young guy, you are supposed to knock his old ass out or at least try. If you are facing a bum, treat him like one and get his ass out of there. Don't make the fans go through 12 rounds of boredom just for the fuck of it. Finally, if you are facing a little dude like Marquez and you have every advantage in the book, you definitely should know what time it is. Marquez should never have lasted 12 rounds with Mayweather. I thought that was just ridiculous. I prefer Pac at this point because he will close the show and he does seem more willing to take risks IMO.

 

[Zeferino]

Also instead of going after a damaged goods, slow assed Cotto why didn't Roach go after Berto, an undefeated fast young belt holder? Careful matchmaking Dude...

Who was considered better? Cotto or Berto? Cotto.

Cotto was a pretty good choice for Pac's first outing at welter. However, if Pac really wants to rule welter he needs to fight Mayweather and Berto.

 

[actinanass]

In Welterweight, I'll give him top 10. However, I do not think he could of fought most of the cats both Sugars had to go against. I would say he is a solid 7-8ish until he beats Pac.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Dude, I've never said he was on PED's. I've actually argued against it. Basically, just like Floyd, Roach is also good at matching Pac against guys who are tailor made for him. Every one of his last 5 fights have been tailored for him... The difference is, Pac is more likable than Floyd, so the urge is to see Floyd get beat to shut his mouth, whereas Pac's humility and good nature makes him easier to like and celebrate. Again, I am definitely more of a Pac fan than a Floyd fan, I just can't be a fool and discount how special a fighter Floyd is.

My nigga... you see what it is like to get caught in that vortex with these niggas. They will have you going around in circles.

Pac is the honorable warrior that will forever be the smaller guy. He can do no wrong because he knocks niggas out.

Floyd is the overrated loud mouth who only looks good because he picks lesser opponents. He will never be right because he puts on boxing clinics that turn fan favorites into chumps.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Judah was not fresh. Judah had already been knocked out by Kostya Tzyzu and was just coming off a lost to Baldomir, a bum, and he almost got knocked in that fight too. You call that fresh? Hatton was fresh but he wasn't even a welterweight and he was rocked to his toes previously at welter by a non puncher named Collazo.

Berto is not too young and green. Berto is an undefeated champion and he is in a position where he too has to defend his title and take on all comers. How could Mayweather be criticized for unifying belts? By the same token, it seems as if Mayweather's fans lower the measuring stick and just find reasons for this guy to not have to fight anyone.
There is no new list. All anyone asks of Mayweather is for him to fight the guys in his own damn division. He fought Mosley and that's a start but it was way overdue as he has been in the welterweight division for several years now.

Floyd can't unify any titles since he's not a champion. The two issues with Berto are: he's not a "money fighter" yet and beating him would mean nothing.
Again that is a new list for Floyd to beat. Berto has only been mentioned passingly before and Williams is always mentioned but Sergio Martinez? A guy who isn't even a welterweight but now Floyd should fight and beat him too.
Trying too hard.

I read all of the responses on this Thread and it's a shame that the dislike for PBF really clouds judgement. As anyone who I have danced with knows, I am not a PBF advocate but I am a boxing fan and you cannot dispute the Dude's skillset. I don't get caught up in his boastful alter ego because if he wasn't that way pre-fight, we might be talking about a hundred thousand buys as opposed to over a million. Shane can't promote a PPV in his own house, so this fight needed a bad guy and PBF plays it to a tee.

As far as the fight, there is no way to dispute Shane being over trained, Dude went through two complete training camps in probably 6 months or so, had a 15 month layoff, and is 38... that being said, he still signed for the fight, showed up for the fight and fought, so I cannot take away from Floyd's performance due to this shit. Also, I do believe it was a calculated risk Floyd took, realizing that Dude could possible come in at less than 100%, but I don't believe even if he had a regular duration camp, etc. the result would have been much different. Sure it could have been closer, but PBF timing is sinister and not only did Shane maybe run out of gas, but those lead rights and counters took a lot out of him too...

I believe Floyd is the best fighter of the last 15 yrs, used to think it was RJJ but he really did get by on super human athletic ability and speed, Floyd gets by on smarts and adaptability, and some genius matchmaking, which I've come to realize is an art in itself.

He is definitely Top 10, it may be too late for him to crack the top 5 because he doesn't have the time or opponents available to afford him the types of fights to catapult him pass some of the fighters with better resumes...

That's one thing I will disagree with. He did have two training camps but they were months apart. The last 24/7 shoots down the idea of him overtraining since Richardson said they take the last week of the fight easy to prevent that very thing. Shane found out what 39 other guys found out (Castillo twice): watching Floyd fight and fighting Floyd is two different things.

Why not fight Andre Berto? If the guy is so easy, just take his belt and move on to the next guy. So what, now Mayweather shouldn't fight Berto because he's supposedly green? Berto has a belt. If he's green, that's his problem. If Mayweather continues to make excuses like this guy's too green, this guy's not popular, this guy has too many losses, this guy's undefeated but green, etc, then he'll continue as he has the past few years without dominating his own division.
I don't know about you, but I like to see undisputed champions. I think more title unifications are necessary.

Floyd Mayweather is 33 with a body breaking down on him. He has no interest in chasing titles, if he wanted to he would have taken Shane's Saturday night. He in for big purses and big matches. Andre Berto, who looked good but not great in his knock out of Carlos Quintana, is not a big time fighter yet and will not and should not be taken seriously as a challenge.

Of course, after beating Berto, the same people that found ways to discredit his win over Mosley will discredit his win over Berto, who has not beaten one serious fighter to date.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Dude, I've never said he was on PED's. I've actually argued against it. Basically, just like Floyd, Roach is also good at matching Pac against guys who are tailor made for him. Every one of his last 5 fights have been tailored for him... The difference is, Pac is more likable than Floyd, so the urge is to see Floyd get beat to shut his mouth, whereas Pac's humility and good nature makes him easier to like and celebrate. Again, I am definitely more of a Pac fan than a Floyd fan, I just can't be a fool and discount how special a fighter Floyd is.

You see it, too?

Also instead of going after a damaged goods, slow assed Cotto why didn't Roach go after Berto, an undefeated fast young belt holder? Careful matchmaking Dude...

Or Shane Mosley, who was begging for the fight and was the hottest fighter and top welterweight in boxing at the time.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Floyd can't unify any titles since he's not a champion. The two issues with Berto are: he's not a "money fighter" yet and beating him would mean nothing.
Again that is a new list for Floyd to beat. Berto has only been mentioned passingly before and Williams is always mentioned but Sergio Martinez? A guy who isn't even a welterweight but now Floyd should fight and beat him too.
Trying too hard.

Floyd Mayweather is 33 with a body breaking down on him. He has no interest in chasing titles, if he wanted to he would have taken Shane's Saturday night. He in for big purses and big matches. Andre Berto, who looked good but not great in his knock out of Carlos Quintana, is not a big time fighter yet and will not and should not be taken seriously as a challenge.

Of course, after beating Berto, the same people that found ways to discredit his win over Mosley will discredit his win over Berto, who has not beaten one serious fighter to date.

These niggas talk like Floyd can never be consider in the top five or ten of any boxing list because he doesn't have a resume like Leonard, Ali and so on... but this nigga must be out his mind if he thinks a Berto win puts him any closer. Pac is the only nigga that has the resume/credentials to be looked at like Hagler, Fraizer, and etc.

 

[Zeferino]

Floyd can't unify any titles since he's not a champion. The two issues with Berto are: he's not a "money fighter" yet and beating him would mean nothing.
Again that is a new list for Floyd to beat. Berto has only been mentioned passingly before and Williams is always mentioned but Sergio Martinez? A guy who isn't even a welterweight but now Floyd should fight and beat him too.
Trying too hard.




That's one thing I will disagree with. He did have two training camps but they were months apart. The last 24/7 shoots down the idea of him overtraining since Richardson said they take the last week of the fight easy to prevent that very thing. Shane found out what 39 other guys found out (Castillo twice): watching Floyd fight and fighting Floyd is two different things.



Floyd Mayweather is 33 with a body breaking down on him. He has no interest in chasing titles, if he wanted to he would have taken Shane's Saturday night. He in for big purses and big matches. Andre Berto, who looked good but not great in his knock out of Carlos Quintana, is not a big time fighter yet and will not and should not be taken seriously as a challenge.

Of course, after beating Berto, the same people that found ways to discredit his win over Mosley will discredit his win over Berto, who has not beaten one serious fighter to date.

Well, I apologize to you and all the "niggas" and "'cats" for simply wanting to see Mayweather fight. Apparently, now it's asking too much for a guy to fight the other champs in his division like Berto. Even for the sake of curiosity just to see how the two would match up, I guess it's just hating. I recognize that since Berto, although a champion, is not worthy enough to be beaten by Mayweather like Henry Bruseles and Sharmba Mitchell were, it is also unfair to suggest Mayweather fight Sergio Martinez since he's at 154. I guess it is trying to hard to ask Mayweather to fight someone with size, skill and youth. Hmm, interesting. Size, skill, and youth. When was the last time Mayweather fought someone with that combination? I guess it doesn't matter, Mayweather would just slay them all anyway without even having to fight them. After that, he would ascend back to the father and rightfully take his place in the godhead with Sugar Ray robinson. To suggest otherwise is just trying too hard.

I agree with you "niggas" and "cats". Mayweather should only have to fight Pac and that's it. If that fight doesn't come off, Mayweather should just disappear and let the haters cry.

 

[blackmarket]

after seeing him run around the ring for 8+ rounds last night...no.

Damn...do people actually watch fights? What the fuck was he runnin from, a nigga who couldn't hit him (and was scared to try) after the 2nd round?

Floyd is hands down the best fighter in the sport in the 21st century, hes just the total opposite of what the cracka top brass wants in a marketable champ - an insolent nigga with a bad attitude and a checkered past whos better than everybody else and reminds you in/out the ring. Now more than ever whitey has a virulent hatred for that type of Black man-look at the way they try to marginalize Anderson Silva in MMA whos light years ahead of MAchida and anyone else in the sport they cant stop talking about. To boot hes a tactical counterpuncher whos way too good and quick to the punch to get in any real toe to toe wars so hes not the most exciting fighter and at the end of the day thats what people want to see. But you cant deny the fact that out of all these people they been talking about the past 10 yrs hes the only one whos pretty much never been tested and probably never will be if hes smart. Comparing him to Sugar Ray Robinson might be a stretch but when you make the comparisons between now and yesteryear (i.e. fights then were 10 rounds then, although he beat the greats Robinson beat up tons of tomato cans as well) you gotta start thinking if Floyd fought back then he wouldve been the lightweight/welterweight Jack Johnson-unbeatable.

I think when the boxing history books are closed the record will reflect hes top 5 no matter what they say (or wont say).

 

[SloPoke]

Top 10 in ability alone. His record speaks for itself, but that is all that is viable. He us the most brilliant tactician, but the greats are the ones who defy the odds.. I rank him 7 or 8, just from his ability and record.

I'd love to see him vs Pernell in his prime.

 

[meilmarc]

Only reason why Berto has a belt is because Floyd retired, so berto fought for a vacant belt. Floyd is still the Lineal welter champ cuase he beat shane.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Well, I apologize to you and all the "niggas" and "'cats" for simply wanting to see Mayweather fight. Apparently, now it's asking too much for a guy to fight the other champs in his division like Berto. Even for the sake of curiosity just to see how the two would match up, I guess it's just hating. I recognize that since Berto, although a champion, is not worthy enough to be beaten by Mayweather like Henry Bruseles and Sharmba Mitchell were, it is also unfair to suggest Mayweather fight Sergio Martinez since he's at 154. I guess it is trying to hard to ask Mayweather to fight someone with size, skill and youth. Hmm, interesting. Size, skill, and youth. When was the last time Mayweather fought someone with that combination? I guess it doesn't matter, Mayweather would just slay them all anyway without even having to fight them. After that, he would ascend back to the father and rightfully take his place in the godhead with Sugar Ray robinson. To suggest otherwise is just trying too hard.

I agree with you "niggas" and "cats". Mayweather should only have to fight Pac and that's it. If that fight doesn't come off, Mayweather should just disappear and let the haters cry.

Glad you came to your senses. (I can do sarcasm too)

Boxing isn't about curiousity, it's about money and big fights and Andre Berto isn't either. He hasn't beaten one really good fighter yet so why should he get the privilege (and it is that) of fighting the top draw in the sport? How has he earned that? Floyd beat people that made money after years of beating people that didn't. He's already retired twice, let the man cash in.
Yes, it's wrong to think a welterweight has to prove how great he is by beating the middleweight champion, especially when he's a natural welterweight. And Sergio isn't a big fight either. Let him get his value up. Same with Paul Williams. If Floyd fought any of those guys, Berto in particular, it would mean nothing because he's supposed to beat them, he's the star. Pacquiao is the last dude left.

Only reason why Berto has a belt is because Floyd retired, so berto fought for a vacant belt. Floyd is still the Lineal welter champ cuase he beat shane.

That's what I'm saying. When you get to Floyd's or Manny's level belts are meaningles. Particularly, belts you gave away.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Glad you came to your senses. (I can do sarcasm too)

Boxing isn't about curiousity, it's about money and big fights and Andre Berto isn't either. He hasn't beaten one really good fighter yet so why should he get the privilege (and it is that) of fighting the top draw in the sport? How has he earned that? Floyd beat people that made money after years of beating people that didn't. He's already retired twice, let the man cash in.
Yes, it's wrong to think a welterweight has to prove how great he is by beating the middleweight champion, especially when he's a natural welterweight. And Sergio isn't a big fight either. Let him get his value up. Same with Paul Williams. If Floyd fought any of those guys, Berto in particular, it would mean nothing because he's supposed to beat them, he's the star. Pacquiao is the last dude left.




That's what I'm saying. When you get to Floyd's or Manny's level belts are meaningles. Particularly, belts you gave away.

Dave, what that old ass Mayorga lookin "nigga" doesn't understand is that we can use our "nigga" logic to see past the bullshit. All these so called experts jump on Floyd's every move and will move the measuring stick every time he fights regardless of what he does. Nobody is saying that we don't want him to fight Berto, P Will or Martinez, but the reality is Pac makes the most sense. Fighting anyone else will not add to his legacy or prove anything to his critics so these motherfuckers need to stop acting like those fights mean more than they really do.

 

[Alaskanredman]

I can see it now if he beat Martinez or P Williams...

They "exposed" each other.... They were "damaged goods" after their war..... He needs to fight a true Middleweight...

 

[TJervey]

The thing is, as much as I would have liked to see Floyd fight the best over his career, he hasn't and at this point it would be foolish for him to make that the point of the rest of his career. I understand the frustration, but again, you cannot take away from the fact that he is talented. I do believe there are fighters out there who would definitely press the hell out of him, Pac, Williams, Martinez, I believe Berto would be a more difficult fight than many are giving him credit for, but at the end of the Day, I believe Floyd would figure them out. One thing that is truly underestimated is how important a thinking mind is for a fighter. Floyd, even after he got rocked, remained calm in the corner, never flinched, even his corner was relatively calm. Whereas a lot of fighters would have panicked, he remained calm, realized he was rocked and maybe plan A wasn't working, and IMMEDIATELY went to plan B. I mean, Dude IMMEDIATELY changed strategy, started to press the issue, and took Shane out of his gameplan. As far as Shane goes, he really didn't have a plan B, and that was the difference. Shane is as athletic, stronger, and I still believe quicker, but he doesn't have Floyd's timing. I believe Williams would be tough, but I also see him getting countered to death. Out of all of them, I see Martinez as his biggest test, because he has the conditioning, Movement and power to give Floyd fits. Pac is a wild card, because he is active, fast, unorthodox, and hits hard. That being said, I truly believe Floyd is the best right now, until someone beats him. As much as we call him a dodger, which he has been guilty of, he is also smarter than most, which is why even now, he has so little mileage, but is one of the wealthiest most well known fighters in history. Shane, a great fighter, warrior, etc. and he is a HOFer, but, I'm sure if he could do things differently, he would. As good as he was, he will always be remembered for this ass whipping, because I believe to a point he underestimated Floyd, because of the hype and the negative press, and left himself open...

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Easy.

Hatton: It was more meaningful for Pac to beat Hatton because he beat Hatton at his BEST WEIGHT where Hatton was champ and he obliterated him there. There's no way you can compare that to Mayweather making Hatton fight him at 147 where Hatton almost got his world rocked by Luis Collazo of all people and subsequently swore he would never go back to 147 because it wasn't the right weight class for him.

De La Hoya It was meaningful for both but for different reasons. However, I was very disappointed with Mayweather's performance. Compare what a young Mosley did to a young DLH with what a young Mayweather did with an old DLH. I thought it was a very crappy performance for someone that is supposedly so skilled.

I would lean towards Pacquiao's win over Hatton as more impressive since it was at Hatton's more natural weight but the second part of your post throws that out. Since welter is considered 140 to 147, then the Mayweather knockout edges the Pacquiao knockout since he did it first.
Mayweather definitely has the edge when it comes to De La Hoya. He beat him pretty clearly at super welterweight when Oscar came in at 160. Manny beat him at an older age and at a very drained 147.
Neither is as impressive as the first Mosley win over DLH but May over Pac, just because he beat a bigger, fresher fighter (Oscar was coming off knocking out Mayorga).

Welterweight is anything over 140 and up to 147. Anything between there can be contractually played with and is still considered welterweight. This is done all the time. Sometimes on ESPN, they'll say "the fight is scheduled for the lightweight division give or take a pound" or something like that. Cotto weighed the same as he had for previous welterweight fights against Pac. That wasn't even an issue.

But he had to come down to 145 to make the catchweight, something Freddie Roach himself said he thought would take something out of him. The catchweight was a way for Pacquiao to gain an advantage and it only worked because the WBO pressured Cotto by making Manny a contender despite having never beaten a ranked welterweight.

Dave, what that old ass Mayorga lookin "nigga" doesn't understand is that we can use our "nigga" logic to see past the bullshit. All these so called experts jump on Floyd's every move and will move the measuring stick every time he fights regardless of what he does. Nobody is saying that we don't want him to fight Berto, P Will or Martinez, but the reality is Pac makes the most sense. Fighting anyone else will not add to his legacy or prove anything to his critics so these motherfuckers need to stop acting like those fights mean more than they really do.

Exactly. Floyd did not come out of retirement to "clean up the division". He came back for big money and legacy fights and none of those three guys offer that. Not one of those guys even fights on ppv. Berto needs to get a couple name guys in the ring in a hurry just in case May and Pac can't get it together. He needs to be making himself as valuable as possible. Quintana was a good start but he needs to be trying to get Shane in the ring by the fall.
For Floyd, he's beaten two of the top 5 p4p fighters in the world right now, leaving only himself, Pacquiao, and P Williams. Since Pacquiao is a welterweight and Williams is a jr. middle/middleweight, the Pacquiao fight is the only one left worth making.

 

[Zeferino]

Exactly. Floyd did not come out of retirement to "clean up the division". He came back for big money and legacy fights and none of those three guys offer that. Not one of those guys even fights on ppv.

So, do you consider Mayweather's decision win at welter over the lightweight Marquez a legacy fight?

Also, if the criteria for an opponent being acceptable is having fought on PPV, then who besides Pacquiao is supposedly worthy enough to fight Mayweather? If the Pac fight doesn't come off, maybe Mayweather should just retire because it seems no one else is worthy enough to fight him.

He can't fight Berto because he's too green and hasn't been on PPV. Williams and Martinez are in other weight classes and haven't been on PPV. I'm sure there are excuses, I mean reasons, for why Mayweather shouldn't have to fight virtually anyone else except Pacquiao.

As supposed fans of the sport and not the boxers, I find it interesting that people are able to come up with so many reasons not to see Mayweather fight. As a fan of boxing, I would love to see him test his style against all these other styles especially before anointing him the greatest of all time, the greatest defensive fighter of all time, and all that other nonsense.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

So, do you consider Mayweather's decision win at welter over the lightweight Marquez a legacy fight?

Also, if the criteria for an opponent being acceptable is having fought on PPV, then who besides Pacquiao is supposedly worthy enough to fight Mayweather? If the Pac fight doesn't come off, maybe Mayweather should just retire because it seems no one else is worthy enough to fight him.

He can't fight Berto because he's too green and hasn't been on PPV. Williams and Martinez are in other weight classes and haven't been on PPV. I'm sure there are excuses, I mean reasons, for why Mayweather shouldn't have to fight virtually anyone else except Pacquiao.

As supposed fans of the sport and not the boxers, I find it interesting that people are able to come up with so many reasons not to see Mayweather fight. As a fan of boxing, I would love to see him test his style against all these other styles especially before anointing him the greatest of all time, the greatest defensive fighter of all time, and all that other nonsense.

Marquez was a setup for Pacquiao, Stevie Wonder could see that. In his defense, JMM was a top 5 p4p fighter and had a good ppv history, something none of the three you name are except Williams in the p4p ranking.
I'm a fan of the sport and the boxers (so are you, be honest) but I'm adult and I don't expect businessmen to make poor business decision because I have an everchanging wish list.

The ppv criteria is very important and may be the most important. It's far more important than random alphabet titles and belts. So yeah, Pacquiao is the only guy worthy of fighting Mayweather right now. Manny, unlike Berto, Martinez (who just started getting fights on HBO again) and Williams, brings something to the table: a big name and big money.

I won't apologize for not engaging in fantasy boxing and then being mad when the guys who actually have to fight don't do what I want. Expecting a welterweight to fight jr.middle/middleweights is out of bounds and I've noticed only expected of Floyd Mayweather. Martinez just came into his fight with Pavlik at 175 lbs. How would a 150 lbs Mayweather (or Pacquiao) have an even shot against a true light heavyweight? If they fight at a catchweight, Martinez (and Williams) would have to drain themselves at a dangerous rate and then the same people who don't want to give Floyd credit for smashing Shane would shit on that win too (it's been a trend that shows no sign of abating).

If he can't get Pac, he'll probably retire since there isn't anymore big fights out there. That's the main reason I think (you keep seeming to miss this point) Berto should hurry and get a couple high profile fights and wins in before the end of the year so he can get in line for Mayweather.

 

[Zeferino]

Marquez was a setup for Pacquiao, Stevie Wonder could see that. In his defense, JMM was a top 5 p4p fighter and had a good ppv history, something none of the three you name are except Williams in the p4p ranking.
I'm a fan of the sport and the boxers (so are you, be honest) but I'm adult and I don't expect businessmen to make poor business decision because I have an everchanging wish list.

The ppv criteria is very important and may be the most important. It's far more important than random alphabet titles and belts. So yeah, Pacquiao is the only guy worthy of fighting Mayweather right now. Manny, unlike Berto, Martinez (who just started getting fights on HBO again) and Williams, brings something to the table: a big name and big money.

I won't apologize for not engaging in fantasy boxing and then being mad when the guys who actually have to fight don't do what I want. Expecting a welterweight to fight jr.middle/middleweights is out of bounds and I've noticed only expected of Floyd Mayweather. Martinez just came into his fight with Pavlik at 175 lbs. How would a 150 lbs Mayweather (or Pacquiao) have an even shot against a true light heavyweight? If they fight at a catchweight, Martinez (and Williams) would have to drain themselves at a dangerous rate and then the same people who don't want to give Floyd credit for smashing Shane would shit on that win too (it's been a trend that shows no sign of abating).

If he can't get Pac, he'll probably retire since there isn't anymore big fights out there. That's the main reason I think (you keep seeming to miss this point) Berto should hurry and get a couple high profile fights and wins in before the end of the year so he can get in line for Mayweather.

It's not even all about Berto. Berto is just one of the fighters that Mayweather could face, IMO. I'm a fan of boxing and I really don't care about Mayweather's business decisions or how much money he has. Why would a fan of the sport even care about Floyd's business decisions anyway?

All these explanations about weight and why Mayweather shouldn't fight junior middleweights, even though you had no problem with claiming De La Hoya was a natural junior middle, don't even matter. What matters is you can come up with a million reasons why Mayweather shouldn't fight anyone except Pacquiao yet you claim to be his fan and probably think he's a top ten all time great.

You are right, I may be missing your point because frankly fans of the past never let how much money some fighter was going to receive get in the way of them wanting to see fights. I'm looking at boxing from the point of view of the actual sport and not the business side because I could care less about how much money Mayweather is getting. As a fan of the sport, I just want to see great fights and great match-ups.

For you to say that Pacquiao is the only guy "worthy" to fight Mayweather right now is very revealing of the kind of mentality certain fans have today. This is part of the reason why great fights are not made. What ever happened to just fighting? Shit, the guy's already rich anyway.

You're such a fan of Mayweather that the only person you want to see him fight is Pacquiao and if not then you're happy to just see him retire? That just doesn't seem right.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

It's not even all about Berto. Berto is just one of the fighters that Mayweather could face, IMO. I'm a fan of boxing and I really don't care about Mayweather's business decisions or how much money he has. Why would a fan of the sport even care about Floyd's business decisions anyway?

All these explanations about weight and why Mayweather shouldn't fight junior middleweights, even though you had no problem with claiming De La Hoya was a natural junior middle, don't even matter. What matters is you can come up with a million reasons why Mayweather shouldn't fight anyone except Pacquiao yet you claim to be his fan and probably think he's a top ten all time great.

If you don't see the difference in a welterweight moving up to fight a natural jr. middle as opposed to a natural light heavyweight, how much of a fan could you be?
How is it reasonable to expect Mayweather (or Pacquiao or Berto or any welter) to move up to fight a the top middleweight in the world if it's blatantly outside their natural weight class? Paul Williams, like Sugar Ray Leonard before him, is a natural jr to regular middleweight, Floyd Mayweather is not. Since size isn't an issue for you, why not want him to fight Tomasz Adamek or David Haye?
You don't have to assume anything about what I think, I'll tell you. I'm a Mayweather fan because he's proven himself to be a great fighter, same reason I'm a Pacquiao fan and a Shane Mosley fan. I doubt I would put him in my Top 10 all time but I haven't thought about it, so I don't know. "All time" is a long time. He is a top 10 for welters and if he isn't top 10 p4p, he's close.

You are right, I may be missing your point because frankly fans of the past never let how much money some fighter was going to receive get in the way of them wanting to see fights. I'm looking at boxing from the point of view of the actual sport and not the business side because I could care less about how much money Mayweather is getting. As a fan of the sport, I just want to see great fights and great match-ups.

I don't know from "fans in the past" and quite frankly no one in boxing gave a shit about what fans wanted then either. The money had to be right then as it is now.
If you're looking at the sport without considering the business side, you aren't looking at the sport through realistic eyes or perspective. The business has always come first and it always will.
And I don't see how sporting it is to want a welterweight to fight the middleweight champion when that welter has never even campaigned at jr. middleweight.

For you to say that Pacquiao is the only guy "worthy" to fight Mayweather right now is very revealing of the kind of mentality certain fans have today. This is part of the reason why great fights are not made. What ever happened to just fighting? Shit, the guy's already rich anyway.

"Just fighting" ended the day a man was paid to fight another man.
Drop the quotations around "worthy". Fighters have to earn big fights, they shouldn't just be given one. Josh Clottey was given one and he shouldn't have been and the fight was horrible. Whether it's Berto, Martinez, or Williams, they have to show that people will pay money en masse to watch them fight. Martinez and Williams hopefully can do that but Berto is far behind. Just being a fighter or having an alphabet title doesn't mean you're a great fighter and definitely doesn't mean people will pay to watch you fight. Mayweather has earned that. Pacquiao has earned that. None of these other guys you mention have.
What great fight hasn't been made? Pacquiao-Mayweather and that's it. When the money's right, every fight gets made eventually.

You're such a fan of Mayweather that the only person you want to see him fight is Pacquiao and if not then you're happy to just see him retire? That just doesn't seem right.

Let me make my point so you can stop attempting and misrepresenting me:

The only person I can see him fighting at this point is Pacquiao. If he chose to fight Berto, I'd watch with the outcome being pretty predetermined at this point. I don't expect him to take any fights that will not net him at least $15 million dollars and the only guy with that type of attraction quality is Manny.
If he can't get Manny and no one steps up to make themselves a real attraction, I expect him to retire. I'd hate to see him go but I'd rather him retire than watch him hang around too long like Roy and Evander and Bernard.

 

[Zeferino]

If you don't see the difference in a welterweight moving up to fight a natural jr. middle as opposed to a natural light heavyweight, how much of a fan could you be?
How is it reasonable to expect Mayweather (or Pacquiao or Berto or any welter) to move up to fight a the top middleweight in the world if it's blatantly outside their natural weight class? Paul Williams, like Sugar Ray Leonard before him, is a natural jr to regular middleweight, Floyd Mayweather is not. Since size isn't an issue for you, why not want him to fight Tomasz Adamek or David Haye?
You don't have to assume anything about what I think, I'll tell you. I'm a Mayweather fan because he's proven himself to be a great fighter, same reason I'm a Pacquiao fan and a Shane Mosley fan. I doubt I would put him in my Top 10 all time but I haven't thought about it, so I don't know. "All time" is a long time. He is a top 10 for welters and if he isn't top 10 p4p, he's close.


I don't know from "fans in the past" and quite frankly no one in boxing gave a shit about what fans wanted then either. The money had to be right then as it is now.
If you're looking at the sport without considering the business side, you aren't looking at the sport through realistic eyes or perspective. The business has always come first and it always will.
And I don't see how sporting it is to want a welterweight to fight the middleweight champion when that welter has never even campaigned at jr. middleweight.


"Just fighting" ended the day a man was paid to fight another man.
Drop the quotations around "worthy". Fighters have to earn big fights, they shouldn't just be given one. Josh Clottey was given one and he shouldn't have been and the fight was horrible. Whether it's Berto, Martinez, or Williams, they have to show that people will pay money en masse to watch them fight. Martinez and Williams hopefully can do that but Berto is far behind. Just being a fighter or having an alphabet title doesn't mean you're a great fighter and definitely doesn't mean people will pay to watch you fight. Mayweather has earned that. Pacquiao has earned that. None of these other guys you mention have.
What great fight hasn't been made? Pacquiao-Mayweather and that's it. When the money's right, every fight gets made eventually.





Let me make my point so you can stop attempting and misrepresenting me:

The only person I can see him fighting at this point is Pacquiao. If he chose to fight Berto, I'd watch with the outcome being pretty predetermined at this point. I don't expect him to take any fights that will not net him at least $15 million dollars and the only guy with that type of attraction quality is Manny.
If he can't get Manny and no one steps up to make themselves a real attraction, I expect him to retire. I'd hate to see him go but I'd rather him retire than watch him hang around too long like Roy and Evander and Bernard.

Misrepresent you? You basically confirmed everything I said. You contradicted yourself a couple of times too. You say fighters have to earn big fights but then you caught yourself with the Clottey example. I guess it depends on your definition of "big fights" which I suspect is limited to fights only in which Pacquiao and Mayweather are involved.

Also, you state that the Clottey fight was horrible as if it had something to do with him not "earning" it yet the Marquez fight with Mayweather was equally horrible and you think he earned it somehow.

This stuff about Berto, Martinez, and Williams having to prove something more for people to want to see them fight is bullshit and a convenient excuse for ducking them. If everybody thought like you, there would be almost no fights to watch. If a boxer is active, he should be fighting. I'm a fan of boxing so I like to see guys fight. I think fans should want to see Mayweather take out all these top welters. I really don't see what the controversy is. Isn't it natural to want to see boxers box? Especially if it's the so called pound for pound best in the world?

Finally, you keep going into this stuff about middleweights and light heavyweights when my point in this topic is not about the intricacies of fighting at different weights. My point is about seeing fights.

When did I ever say that there was no difference between fighting light heavies, middles, welters, and all of this stuff? I don't know where you're getting that.

You addressed my main point when you said that the only guy "worthy" of fighting Mayweather is Pac and if that fight doesn't come of he may as well retire. We differ on that. As a boxing fan, I think there are plenty of great fights to be made, great money to be made, and it's not all limited to just one opponent. You said that Mayweather came back for legacy fights. One way to gain a legacy is to dominate your division like Hopkins and Monzon did so there is some value in that. Did I say that Mayweather should unify the belts and make a zillion defenses? No. Would it look impressive for him to face the other champs in his division and become undisputed at welterweight? Yes.

 

[Spectrum]

Marquez was a setup for Pacquiao, Stevie Wonder could see that. In his defense, JMM was a top 5 p4p fighter and had a good ppv history, something none of the three you name are except Williams in the p4p ranking.
I'm a fan of the sport and the boxers (so are you, be honest) but I'm adult and I don't expect businessmen to make poor business decision because I have an everchanging wish list.

The ppv criteria is very important and may be the most important. It's far more important than random alphabet titles and belts. So yeah, Pacquiao is the only guy worthy of fighting Mayweather right now. Manny, unlike Berto, Martinez (who just started getting fights on HBO again) and Williams, brings something to the table: a big name and big money.

I won't apologize for not engaging in fantasy boxing and then being mad when the guys who actually have to fight don't do what I want. Expecting a welterweight to fight jr.middle/middleweights is out of bounds and I've noticed only expected of Floyd Mayweather. Martinez just came into his fight with Pavlik at 175 lbs. How would a 150 lbs Mayweather (or Pacquiao) have an even shot against a true light heavyweight? If they fight at a catchweight, Martinez (and Williams) would have to drain themselves at a dangerous rate and then the same people who don't want to give Floyd credit for smashing Shane would shit on that win too (it's been a trend that shows no sign of abating).

If he can't get Pac, he'll probably retire since there isn't anymore big fights out there. That's the main reason I think (you keep seeming to miss this point) Berto should hurry and get a couple high profile fights and wins in before the end of the year so he can get in line for Mayweather.

This.

 

[Spectrum]

This stuff about Berto, Martinez, and Williams having to prove something more for people to want to see them fight is bullshit and a convenient excuse for ducking them.

Zef,

I agree with you about wanting to see fighters...well fight. However, we have to be careful with the terms we use. Ducking in boxing has ONE meaning...avoiding fighting a boxer that many think would beat you.

You cant really be ducking a fighter that doesnt even fight in your own weight class so you have to eliminate PW and Sergio.

Can Floyd really be accused of DUCKING Berto . Are you really making the argument that if Floyd retired, he was ducking Berto

 

[Zeferino]

Zef,

I agree with you about wanting to see fighters...well fight. However, we have to be careful with the terms we use. Ducking in boxing has ONE meaning...avoiding fighting a boxer that many think would beat you.

You cant really be ducking a fighter that doesnt even fight in your own weight class so you have to eliminate PW and Sergio.

Can Floyd really be accused of DUCKING Berto . Are you really making the argument that if Floyd retired, he was ducking Berto

Okay, point well taken regarding the terms. Avoiding would be the better term. As far as Berto, I don't think Floyd is ducking Berto. I think Floyd is eager for the easier money. To me, he seemed very conscious of the danger Mosley presented and I am sure he would rather have big fights for similar money against lesser threats. However, I do think that if he were to just retire right now, he'd be leaving a whole lot of unfinished business and the criticism would never stop.

 

[Spectrum]

Okay, point well taken regarding the terms. Avoiding would be the better term. As far as Berto, I don't think Floyd is ducking Berto. I think Floyd is eager for the easier money. To me, he seemed very conscious of the danger Mosley presented and I am sure he would rather have big fights for similar money against lesser threats. However, I do think that if he were to just retire right now, he'd be leaving a whole lot of unfinished business and the criticism would never stop.

I completely agree. I think he needs to beat Pacman and beat him soundly. I think differently than before.. I actually think that Floyd should beat Pacman easily. If he didnt beat him by KO or UD, I would be shocked. I think Pacman is a great fighter..an actuall all-time great, but I really think Floyd is in another class he need to outclass Pacman.

I also think he would need to outclass one more great fighter to really put the nail in the coffin. I could never consider him the BEST of all time simply because this era doesnt stand up to great eras of the past. However, by doing beating two more great, the case could then be made that he would be one of the best in ANY era.

I am of the opinion that even fighting Berto and a couple other welters is not going to do much for his overall legacy because there arent many great welters.. good welters but not great welters.

 

[FJP]

Berto is exciting but he gets hit WAY too much and he tires. 2 things that kill you when you fight Floyd.

 

[Spectrum]

Berto is exciting but he gets hit WAY too much and he tires. 2 things that kill you when you fight Floyd.

Exactly man... i couldnt even imagine how bad the second half of that fight would be..

 

[Alaskanredman]

Am I the only one that doesn't gets the people discrediting Floyd for fighting a P4P fighter that was smaller than him by 10 lbs, but they expect Floyd to fight some what unproven bigger guys (by 13-20 lbs) and talk shit like this is what all fighters do... especially when most fighters only move one or two weight classes in a career.