1) i am not rehashing shit we have already discussed
2) ok, if that is what you think
Floyd Mayweather comes off vacation to face Vicious Victor Ortiz for $40 mill
- Thread starter dime bag
- Start date
1) i am not rehashing shit we have already discussed
2) ok, if that is what you think
I can guarantee that if Floyd has a life or death fight with anyone... the first thing that will be said is "see he isn't that good" and it won't matter if he's 40. If you can't admit how good he is based on some of his damn near flawless victories over champions... you will never admit it.
If he isn't what you like cause you want brawl... fine.
If you question if he has heart... fine, he hasn't had to dig deep.
If want to see him against tough comp... fine, we all do.
But to act like you can't judge whether or not he is a great boxer...
I cant rate him against other greats because of the points i made. And i never said he wasnt a great boxer.
Funny
You damn Skippy it's another storyYeah, he could have finished the fight but I think he (and Nacho) realized right there on the stool that his career was done. The only time I could say Oscar would possibly have been ko'd was against Trinidad had that been a 15 rounder. Oscar had nothing left and Tito was stepping on the gas and starting to tag him. Other than that, he's gone down on flash-type knockdowns but dudes chin is sturdy. Now his ribs are another story.
I can guarantee that if Floyd has a life or death fight with anyone... the first thing that will be said is "see he isn't that good" and it won't matter if he's 40. If you can't admit how good he is based on some of his damn near flawless victories over champions... you will never admit it.
If he isn't what you like cause you want brawl... fine.
If you question if he has heart... fine, he hasn't had to dig deep.
If want to see him against tough comp... fine, we all do.
But to act like you can't judge whether or not he is a great boxer...
Agreed, you can feel how you want about Floyd but dude is undeniably a great fighter.
When I watched the fight between Ortiz and Berto and saw Mayweather watching in the crowd, I had a feeling that he would face the winner of that fight...sure enough that happened...
buk said:
Then by your logic/opinion, Floyd will never attain the "greatness" that you speak of
Really, why does a fighter have to be "tested" to be great? It is like I said before and what merce77 rehashed, some fighters are just so good that there is no one out there that can test them or even come close. I would just sit back and enjoy what you are seeing, because there is no other fighter like him coming any time soon...
When I watched the fight between Ortiz and Berto and saw Mayweather watching in the crowd, I had a feeling that he would face the winner of that fight...sure enough that happened...
Then by your logic/opinion, Floyd will never attain the "greatness" that you speak of
Really, why does a fighter have to be "tested" to be great? It is like I said before and what merce77 rehashed, some fighters are just so good that there is no one out there that can test them or even come close. I would just sit back and enjoy what you are seeing, because there is no other fighter like him coming any time soon...
lol, ok.
<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" name="single2" src="http://riddimmafia.com/player-viral.swf" width="470" height="320" allowscriptaccess="never" wmode="transparent" flashvars="file=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIDJb26v6Wo&feature=player_embedded#at=154&link=http://smartenupnas.com/?cat=1&skin=http://riddimmafia.com/bekle.swf&plugins=viral-1,viral2">
Floyd Sr Talks about Mayweather-Ortiz and manny vs shane
Floyd Sr Talks about Mayweather-Ortiz and manny vs shane
Last edited:
No one inflates Corley: he was a decent guy who had some belts before and was a sound gatekeeper for the jr welterweight/welterweight divisions. There's a reason HBO and the promoters sent Mayweather and Cotto his way: if you couldn't beat Demarcus Corley, you didn't deserve to be on tv or fighting for big money. Kermit Cintron holds that position for jr middles right now.
Castillo wasn't on his level but who has been? There was talk that Corrales was, he wasn't. But Castillo gave him the hardest fight of his career, to date (and he wasn't a southpaw
), and he gave him a rematch about as fast as you can and beat him soundly.I don't remember mentioning Duran and Leonard at all. It's a lot easier to have this conversation if you would argue the points I actually make and not ones you need me to make so you can make your points.
Looking for these epic moments is how guys like Arturo Gatti are called "great" (he is in one sense but not like true legends). You name a great and look at these life and death fights and you see they were often matched with a guy who played to their weakness or they made tactical mistakes that let the other guy in the fight or win (Leonard-Duran I)
So do I but if it turns into a typical Mayweather fight (Ortiz wins the first couple rounds based on a couple good shots and greater activity, Floyd starts pulling away by the fourth round, one sided decision), I don't see how it would be a knock on Mayweather.
There's nothing wrong with liking all out, no defense brawls but you have to be able to recognize superior boxing talent when it's evident.
I see your C/S and Raise you One More So in other words i C/S the C/S
When I watched the fight between Ortiz and Berto and saw Mayweather watching in the crowd, I had a feeling that he would face the winner of that fight...sure enough that happened...
Then by your logic/opinion, Floyd will never attain the "greatness" that you speak of
Really, why does a fighter have to be "tested" to be great? It is like I said before and what merce77 rehashed, some fighters are just so good that there is no one out there that can test them or even come close. I would just sit back and enjoy what you are seeing, because there is no other fighter like him coming any time soon...
I agree with this point greatly. However, the problem with Floyd is he "retired" at a time when the division was relatively deep. There was Cotto, Margarito, Paul Williams, Berto, Cintron, and this was the time Floyd chose to retire and become inactive. In other words he left a lot of work undone. Then he sporadically began to unretire himself against guys that weren't even welterweights (Hatton and Marquez) while letting these guys knock each other off. Now the smoke has cleared and he's resurfacing little by little. This is why people feel Mayweather needs to be tested, because he has a lot unfinished business or convincing to do. Before 2006, he was convincing and an active boxer. After that, things went downhill and he seemed to cease being interested in dominating his division of residence.
I understand this. I thought there was a legit argument for Cotto to fight Mayweather after he beat Mosley. I never thought he could beat him but at that point, he seemed like the next up.
That's just it... yes there are fights we all would have liked to have seen which we have discussed over and over again, but if we are talking about people on Floyd's level... none of them were that good. All of them had to land lucky shots and seeing how hard it is to land a clean shot on him... Floyd was always favored to not only win but to dominate. That's why there was a push to keep him moving up so people can just walk through Floyd's punches and have a better chance to land that lucky shot.
That is the counterpoint. Each of these guys was good, to different degrees, but each had glaring vulnerabilities like Ortiz does that even if Mayweather had fought them it wouldn't have made a difference. Hell, I thought Williams had the formula with his reach, chin, and heavy, heavy punch output but then I saw him fight a counterpuncher in Carlos Quintana and look horrible and if Quintana can do that, Mayweather would embarass him.
And yeah, that's exactly why people want him to keep moving up but damn, I think he's as big as he's going to get.
I think the fights need to be fought. I don't think it's fair to just look at a guy and say there's no way he could beat another guy. Even you just mentioned the Carlos Quintana situation. No one expected him to take Paul Williams to hell like that in their first fight. No one expected Baldomir to beat Judah because on paper Judah just boxes circles around him without getting touched. In reality, Baldomir got to Judah, hurt him badly and got the decision. I don't think Mayweather should be the exception to this. The fights should be fought in the ring and I refuse to just give him a pass and say he would have won all of those fights anyway.
That's not what I'm saying. I agree with this. But for people who say he hasn't fought someone on his level yet, they can't throw those guys up when it's past apparent that they aren't elite fighters like Mayweather and Pacquiao and even Mosley (in the past).
And you know like I know, Judah and Mayweather are two different type of fighters: one thinks he's the greatest but doesn't put in the work while the other thinks he's the greatest and works hard to prove it. Had Judah been looking at Baldomir instead of counting his money for his upcoming fight with Mayweather, he wins that fight. Floyd Mayweather is a lot of things but he never overlooks opponents and treats every guy like they're the greatest threat in the world (because at that moment they are).
I agree regarding Judah. He obviously is an underachiever. He even managed to make his fight against Roque Cassiani a close fight by basically just falling asleep after the 6th round. My main point is that it doesn't take an elite fighter to beat an elite fighter and that's why the fights need to be fought.
Again, we're agreeing. I just want to be sure you see what I and Alaskan are saying that if he had fought a couple of those guys (no way he fights all of them), the criticism of "He hasn't fought anyone on his level" could be and would still be leveled by those that want to use that.
Ahh, I think I see what you are saying now. It's kind of like how Bernard Hopkins unified 160 and defended against a whole bunch of contenders that were not on his level. What else could he do? That's all that was there until Wright and Taylor came along when Hops was probably already outgrowing the division. The same goes for Roy Jones, he unified light heavy against almost every champ in dominating fashion, fought and beat almost every single guy in the top ten in his division yet people love to say he didn't fight nobody, the opponents, were garbage men, blah blah blah. So yeah, I can see how a fighter could get discouraged and say "fuck it". I don't know if that was Floyd's reasoning but in the end no matter what anyone says, a lot of Hopkins' legacy hangs on making that record amount of defenses. For Jones, no matter how horrible he looks now, he'll always be able to hang his hat on being dominant at lightheavy and unifying the titles there. So yes, regardless, the fights should be fought no matter what the skeptics say and dominating your division in the traditional sense should still hold some merit.
Then we're on the same page.
I believe in dominating your division too and I think it still does have merit. Now the titles and belts? That's another issue.
Chop chop was not a gate keeper. Shit pbf's toughest fights were againts burton and catsillio. Really? PBF ducked big fights that would have ended the debate on him. You vant deny his talent but his appetite to be great is lacking.
I never would bash people for their views on bhop. He dominated a weak division. Had ugly fights. It was hard to say were he rated with previous champs in that divison. Ii mean you judge fighters by how they perform win or lose in big fights. Bhop big fights were against journey men before tito. I couldnt knock a person not feeling him. People needed bhop to step against elite fighters and face challenges. Once pbf does the same he will not be just a great boxer, but have a great career.
Gatti was not a great fighter. But dude had some great fights.
I never would bash people for their views on bhop. He dominated a weak division. Had ugly fights. It was hard to say were he rated with previous champs in that divison. Ii mean you judge fighters by how they perform win or lose in big fights. Bhop big fights were against journey men before tito. I couldnt knock a person not feeling him. People needed bhop to step against elite fighters and face challenges. Once pbf does the same he will not be just a great boxer, but have a great career.
Gatti was not a great fighter. But dude had some great fights.
I was a huge bhop fan. But i was biased cause i'm from philly. That being said when you grow up watching the leonards, durans, ali and other greats you know that is how you be ome great. You fight the best. Pbf career started and is ending the same way. They are feeding him dudes that cant beat him since he went pro. The only fight he had really was against oscar that fit the bill of a tough fight. Every other fight was just a cake walk type of fight. RIP chico, he was not mentally ready to be in the ring with pbf at the time of their fight.
We've had this debate before and you don't seem to understand what a "gatekeeper" in boxing is. Since I already explained it in this thread, I'm not going to again but he fit the definition at the time.
I don't remember him ducking any fights. When he left Arum, the planned Cotto and Margarito fights were off and he went to fight Oscar, the biggest payday in boxing.
Great observation.
Were Tito, a blown up welter at the time, and DLH, a true jr middle, really elite competition to a solid middleweight like Hopkins? So, going by the same logic you use with Mayweather buk, Hopkins didn't fight anyone on his level.
Who's fault was that? They didn't sign to fight him hoping he would beat up his girl and face charges. How does Mayweather not get credit for dominating Corrales in the prime of his career? Dude went on to have a Fight of the Decade quality fight with Castillo after this so he still had plenty in the tank.
And I don't see what he could have done differently in that fight.
One other thing, I'm 37, who do you think I came up watching? The same Duran, Leonard, Hearns and Hagler, not to mention Aaron Pryor (who Sugar ducked, c'mon now). Those guys had each other to fight. Mayweather had Castillo, Corrales, Judah from his era and Mosley and DLH from the one before and Ortiz from the next one coming up. It's entirely his fault that, so far, he's dominated each of those guys at least once. He had superior talent and incredible work ethic to go with it (never is out of shape and treats every opponent as legit). I don't see him passing all of those guys but he will pass some and he's earned it.
I am fine with you not defining "gatekeeper" to me. It really is a stupid term to inflate a paper champ anyways.
If you don't remember him "ducking fights" then that is because you don't want to.
Actually when Tito fought BHOP. The question was if BHOP was on Tito's level.
Hagler fighting little guys is not something I remember. I am not going to argue that one. I just remember him having some great fights when I was a kid. Brutal fights to be exact.
Corley was never a "paper" champion. He was a minor champion who beat people to get his belts. It's not inflating at all to call him a "gatekeeper". It's an accurate description.
Who did he duck? Not fighting someone and ducking someone are two different things. Riddick Bowe ducked Lennox Lewis. Ray Leonard ducked Aaron Pryor. I can't think of anyone where the situation was the same for Mayweather: a guy he just would not fight.
Only the stupid and the gullible fell for that shit. I didnt understand then and don't now where people were coming from thinking Tito was going to beat Hopkins, like they didn't see the De La Hoya fight.
And still, Hopkins beat a smaller guy who wasn't on his level, whatever the hype was.
Lol, I know you hold yourself in high esteem. However you were not stupid to be impressed by the world class people Tito was putting to bed compared to the c and b level fighters BHOP faced on espn and sports network. I said I knew BHOP was going to win that fight. But in reality I was rooting for the home team. The way Tito was dismantling people was insane. Hype or not. BHOP was the underdog and that fight propelled him. He was given the HBO treatment like PBF. He earned his by facing his biggest threat. Then again by even more historical fights later.
Who were these world class champions he was putting to bed? Fernando Vargas? David Reid? And how many of them were middleweights? When Tito had a world class boxer in front of him, he got outboxed but that guy ended up beating himself (Oscar).
Hopkins was the underdog, not disputing that, but I didn't think he should have been and my opinion at that time was borne out.
Hopkins earned everything he's gotten, by hook or by crook (a dirtier I don't think I've seen) but his biggest win at that point was over a welterweight who had fought all of three times over 147 and only one at 160.
If you have determined a metric on how to appraise fighters "greatness" use it uniformly.
And yes I do hold myself in high esteem. Don't see why I shouldn't. Looking for validation from other people is how you end up with no sense of integrity or consistency.
You're forgetting that Vargas was an offense genius/beast and then the steroids fucked him up...
Lol, you guys stay cracking me up. Circle jerking in every thread, lmao.
Ballooning up to over 200 pounds between fights didn't help either. Vargas could have been really good. He gave Winky a very good fight though I felt he lost, and he absolutely schooled Ike Quartey who Oscar went life and death with. He was much too young to be thrown in there with Tito and his corner shouldn't have waited so long to stop the fight.