Thats because you are a company guy. Merce says he should move up and you applaud. I say ir and you wait for Merce's dismissal of me echoing the same opinion and you applaud. Lol, funny.
Canelo, Morales Eye Mayweather as Pacquiao Plays Out
- Thread starter Alaskanredman
- Start date
Thats because you are a company guy. Merce says he should move up and you applaud. I say ir and you wait for Merce's dismissal of me echoing the same opinion and you applaud. Lol, funny.
I agree.
May is in a great position...if he beats Pac all he has to do is wait on either Khan or wait for a contender at 154 who is the recognized champ or best in the division than just take it from there...
the man has never taken any damage...always in fight shape...still very fast and best defensive fighter in the sport...
I truly believe he can fight 2 more years & still be dominant...
I see a lot of good match ups for him too. I hope the Pac fight goes down cause by mid 2012... shit is going to be wide open.
I agree but he has to move up and take challenges. If he dominates at 147. What does that prove? Nothing. I mean to fight once a year against people with no real chance is boring. 154 is where he needs to go. And I honestly can see him take on a much bigger foe like jr or sergio. I hope it happens. A fight with khan, bradley or manny* seem to easy of fights for him to take.
154 is stacked with good young fighters that like to fight...all the top fighters can give you a good fight any night...
the Jr Middleweight division is going to be the premier division in the sport surpassing the Welterweights pretty soon IMO...
this is a chance for him to really display his greatness....hopefully he moves up...
I still believe he can outclass most of those fighters...
I do too. He is that good. He just needs to do something other than beating smaller fighters and cats who have no chance against him. The funny thing is when I say he doesn't take tough fights. People laugh, but never can put up a list of his tough opponents that warrant his call to greatness. His resume is ass. He doesn't fight tough competition. I mean both him and oscar fought gatti. You never see hbo or anybody mention the beat down oscar gave gatti. why? cause oscar has been in wars and great fights. that is the key difference between pbf and all the greats. and people whining about him moving up. that is what the best have done since boxing started. to me, pbf is this close to greatness. he just needs to reach for it and not just expect people to give it to him with such a weak resume.
I never knew you had to dominate in 5 weight classes before you could be considered great... I think there are a lot of hall of famers that should be informed about this. 4 isn't a enough even if you beat one champion at the 5th weight class... you still have to prove yourself by moving up and shit even then you have to go to that 6th weight class before it is really legit.
I know. They should be embarassed by their transparency.
Yes it was but we didn't know that back then.
All the top fighters are products of matchmaking to some extent and Floyd's no different.
He's had one tough fight and quickly avenged it. But it's not his job to determine favorites and he doesn't know who's going to be tough until the fight starts. He's fought faster guys, bigger guys, smaller guys, brawlers and dangerous fighters with serious knockout power.
The only people who don't give him due credit are, at this point, outliers. The mainstream, serious boxing press was calling him a first ballot HoFer years ago. He'll never be "The Greatest", his resume doesn't stand up to that even with a Pacquiao fight, but he's the greatest of his era and it's not even close.
Hell no. Much like Floyd, once he became a big name, he started taking the big money fights over dangerous fights. He hasn't taken a tough fight (that wasn't a rematch of a fight he lost/drew) since the first Morales fight. After that, I would consider the second Marquez fight dangerous but he had to fight JMM again because he was dominated so badly in the first one after a fast start.
And yes, old school comic geek and cartoon aficionado.
I never knew you had to dominate in 5 weight classes before you could be considered great... I think there are a lot of hall of famers that should be informed about this. 4 isn't a enough even if you beat one champion at the 5th weight class... you still have to prove yourself by moving up and shit even then you have to go to that 6th weight class before it is really legit.
That does seem to be the argument.
Like I said, if he can get a good opponent at 154 who only rehydrates up to 160 and not 170,175, then he should take the fight.
I know. They should be embarassed by their transparency.
Yes it was but we didn't know that back then.
All the top fighters are products of matchmaking to some extent and Floyd's no different.
He's had one tough fight and quickly avenged it. But it's not his job to determine favorites and he doesn't know who's going to be tough until the fight starts. He's fought faster guys, bigger guys, smaller guys, brawlers and dangerous fighters with serious knockout power.
The only people who don't give him due credit are, at this point, outliers. The mainstream, serious boxing press was calling him a first ballot HoFer years ago. He'll never be "The Greatest", his resume doesn't stand up to that even with a Pacquiao fight, but he's the greatest of his era and it's not even close.
Hell no. Much like Floyd, once he became a big name, he started taking the big money fights over dangerous fights. He hasn't taken a tough fight (that wasn't a rematch of a fight he lost/drew) since the first Morales fight. After that, I would consider the second Marquez fight dangerous but he had to fight JMM again because he was dominated so badly in the first one after a fast start.
That does seem to be the argument.
Like I said, if he can get a good opponent at 154 who only rehydrates up to 160 and not 170,175, then he should take the fight.
Dave. I hear what you are saying. But PBF's tought fight was against Oscar. That is it. I can't give castillo to much credit when it was clear that it was only close because PBF didn't take him seriously. That fight was more about PBF not being in a professional mindstate than Castillo's talents.
Manny's tough fights have been all his fights with mab, erik, and juan. Hell figting hatton at 140 and the cotto fights were tough fights too. He just blew them away. Oscar lost on the scales and even his high iq couldn't save him from an onslaught from a fighter he should have been able to outbox.
You can't seriously compare the two fighters.
No doubt. Floyd by a mile is the greater fighter.
Castillo was the best lightweight in the world and the lineal champ, PBF had a serious shoulder injury, that much is clear. He fought on the inside with Castillo, a very serious brawler and body puncher, and he gave almost as good as he got. I thought he lost, but it is what it is. If you remember correctly, Diego Corrales was supposed to rip his head off, and he got one of the worst schoolings I've ever seen.
As far as your other comments, I'll chalk it up to you not knowing as much about boxing as you think you do.
Pac never fought a prime MAB or Morales and Morales still beat him, and then he refused to move up to fight Erik in the next 2 fights and Erik was shaking like a malnourished Somalian at the weigh in. But you neglect to mention these things, these little asterisks next to Pac's "biggest" wins. He was outboxed, not once, not twice, but THREE times by Marquez and got Christmas presents in at least 2 of those fights. Hatton was a glorified club fighter who never belonged in the same ring as Floyd or Pac, he was HBO's great white hype. And Cotto, meh, he gets some credit for that but he also fought a partially starched, worn out Cotto.
And if you think Oscar was a smart, high IQ fighter, then that explains a lot of your comments. Outbox a guy when you're completely starched? It's obvious you've never boxed. To tell you the truth, I give Pac more credit for kicking the shit out of a comparatively huge guy in Margarito, then I give him for any other fight.
Well I expect Alaska to come in at anytime and cosign you, lol. Anyways you are entitled to your opinion and I mine. Neither really matters much except to people that chose to make it more than what it is.
I could easily say Chico was not mentally or physically in his fight with PBF. It was more that and the pending jail time than PBF. But that is my opinion and you have yours. What a person is supposed to do and what they do in the ring are two totally different things. Chico was not in the fight at all. Castillio first fight was a joke. And that is how PBF took it. You don't just get vastly better than an opponent you just had a split decision with. PBF bullshit against him in the first fight. In the rematch you saw what class both fighters were in afterwards. The funny thing is I thought you were going to bring up linear champ Carlos too.
Now I will chalk this up to you not knowing as much as you do about boxing as you think you do. But you can write it as much as you want. But His fights against MAB and Erik were far from tainted from them not being in their prime. You act like Manny fought them in 2009. A funny thing worth mentioning. You claim "No doubt. Floyd by a mile is the greater fighter." and then he refused to move up to fight Erik in the next 2 fights". How can the greater fighter be know more for who he didn't fight than who he did. At least Manny fought these guys. Sure he was outboxed by Juan 3 matches. But Manny did enough to win two against a future hall of famer that made each fight a classic match between the two. You can find things to critque each fighter due to their resume. But you seem to lack an understanding of the sport if you think PBF's resume is better. He has less tough fights, fewer matches with people on his level, and even fewer classic level fights. PBF wins, but it is because he is always looking for the path of the least resistance.
And Oscar has been in the ring and trained with some of the best talents of his generation. So yeah. He does have a high boxing IQ.
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Whatever nicca. The simple fact of the matter is - Floyd had less tough fights because - HE IS A BETTER FIGHTER!!!!! Do you think Morales, Barrera, Cotto, and whoever else were gonna give Floyd fits or that they would actually be tough fights? Just look at what he did to Marquez, who is a better pure boxer than any of those guys. At 126-130, Floyd would probably have stopped either of those guys. And it's funny how you think Coralles mental state had anything to do with him being thoroughly out boxed and knocked down 5 or 6 times. That was all Floyd. Diego could have been in the best mental state of his career and still would have lost badly, because - FLOYD IS A BETTER FIGHTER. I also find funny that aside from MAB, Morales and Cotto - they've fought the same people. You really do need meds bruh. You contradict yourself and flip flop all over the place.
And please explain to me in what fight Oscar put this supposed IQ to work. It must have been when he started running and stopped boxing vs Tito. Or when Floyd Sr. had to yell in his face to use his fuckin jab because Vargas was beating his ass in the first couple rounds. Or how he decided to go toe to toe with Mosley in the first fight when the rematch made it clear he could have outboxed him. Or maybe him refusing to use a jab he'd found some success against Floyd with.
Dude you don't even know what a boxer with a high boxing IQ is. Next you'll tell me Manny has a high boxing IQ, when he can't even take a step to his left or right to walk down a totally washed up Mosley.
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Really. I will stop here. I think you are sniffing the gas from your own ass. You know about boxing, but are blinded by your perception of events. Which is cool. But stop acting as though your voice is gospel. Maybe with young bucks. But I appreciate your opinions, but just not impressed by them.
PBF has the weakest resume of any great. He has left more fights on the floor than any boxer I know. And just because he didn't fight certain fighters. I can't see how you can automatically give him the win. You can assume but you don't know until they fight. And lastly pbf has only been in the ring with three people that were at his level. That was oscar, chico, and juan. Three fights. Dude, three fights. Hell if you want to be generous add hatton, castillo, and carlos since you are so fond of lineal champs. Now look at manny. MAB, Erik, juan, larios, solis, hatton, oscar, margarito, and cotto. Thats 14 tough fights.
Still it is all a matter of opinion. You got yours and I have mine.
not picking sides...both you & Merce posted some stuff I agree and disagree with...Oscar, Hatton, Marg & Cotto were not tough or career defining fights...more great match making and stipulations...Oscar was considered old when he fought PBF but rejuvenated when he fought Pac at a weight he hasn't made in years?...
now that Marquez clearly exposed Pacs flaws can't you say alot of Pac's later fights were great match making...and stipulations...other than Marquez III what tough fight has he been in Clottey?...Cotto who was never the same after losing to Marg...who also had to come down in weight to fight Pac lost his belt under 147 limit
his team attempted to do the same against the great JMM...tried to blow him up slow him down...Marquez beat him with ease at a weight he hasn't made since the fight against PBF...only twice he moved beyond 140 lost to PBF and the world saw what he did to Pac...
I definitely agree with MAB, Morales, Marquez
and I agree PBF needs to boost his resume...
Castillo was the top guy in his division and a champion. Don't change the reality to fit your philosophy. Fighting a top guy for a championship in his division is a "tough fight", even if one guys wins it easily (which it took him two fights to do).
Just no respect for Corrales at all. Dude was a killer and to not consider him a "tough fight" makes your whole premise suspect.
Floyd has/had multiple legal entanglements and still dismantled a bigger, stronger, younger southpaw. Fighters are no strangers to outside bullshit so drop that excuse.
You're just talking crazy now. The first Barrerra fight would qualify but not the pointless rematch. The same goes for the first Morales fight and maybe the rematch but not the third fight when Erik was no longer a featherweight or even a super featherweight but had to come down to make that fight instead of Manny moving up.
I can see Cotto but with an asterisk since even Roach publicly acknowledged the point of the catchweight (which he is now against
) was to drain Cotto and he thought Cotto was a damaged fighter after the Margarito beating and a tough Clottey fight.Can't give him the Oscar fight. If he had beaten Oscar at 154, yeah but not 147.
Yes you can. They're both phenomenall fighters who have used canny matchmaking to bolster their reputations. Manny just did a better job of following the DLH matchmaking example of getting ever advantage he can before he ever hits the ring and exploiting it.
Oscar's a smart promoter but I've never seen anywhere people call him a smart boxer, especially after the Trinidad loss.
No, it's not. It's 7 at the most.
not picking sides...both you & Merce posted some stuff I agree and disagree with...Oscar, Hatton, Marg & Cotto were not tough or career defining fights...more great match making and stipulations...Oscar was considered old when he fought PBF but rejuvenated when he fought Pac at a weight he hasn't made in years?...
now that Marquez clearly exposed Pacs flaws can't you say alot of Pac's later fights were great match making...and stipulations...other than Marquez III what tough fight has he been in Clottey?...Cotto who was never the same after losing to Marg...who also had to come down in weight to fight Pac lost his belt under 147 limit
his team attempted to do the same against the great JMM...tried to blow him up slow him down...Marquez beat him with ease at a weight he hasn't made since the fight against PBF...only twice he moved beyond 140 lost to PBF and the world saw what he did to Pac...
I definitely agree with MAB, Morales, Marquez
and I agree PBF needs to boost his resume...
If he wants to be compared to all time, top 5 dead or alive guys like Leonard, Robinson, Ali, he needs to add Manny and Sergio to his resume. But to just be considered an all time legend and the best of his era, he's good and he gets that over Manny.
Funny. I have asked numerous times for people to list of PBF's tough fights or toughest opponents. I never get that list.
Let's start here.
Then followed by
But in the same thread he says this.
Buk is crazy. Wait Merce77 said this.
I think this is all I have been saying. I agree with P03t and Merce until he gets all crazy cause I'm not apart of his crew. The funny thing is I agree with him when he isn't talking crazy. Which is usually right after I post and he get boosting powers when his followers chime in.
One last thing. I can post records of fighters with a low boxing IQ. To say Oscar doesn't have that is funny. Cause he fought great fighters and sometimes made tactical errors. Well that is what happens when you take on opponents that have a chance of beating you. But I guess you guys have been watch PBF to much and must of forgot. Anyways these are just opinions. Until Merce and his crew start training world class fighters then I might view them differently. As of now. I will view there words as I do mine. A guy speaking on boxing on bgol.
Then followed by
But in the same thread he says this.
Buk is crazy. Wait Merce77 said this.
Somehow when I say this. I am crazy.
I think this is all I have been saying. I agree with P03t and Merce until he gets all crazy cause I'm not apart of his crew. The funny thing is I agree with him when he isn't talking crazy. Which is usually right after I post and he get boosting powers when his followers chime in.
One last thing. I can post records of fighters with a low boxing IQ. To say Oscar doesn't have that is funny. Cause he fought great fighters and sometimes made tactical errors. Well that is what happens when you take on opponents that have a chance of beating you. But I guess you guys have been watch PBF to much and must of forgot. Anyways these are just opinions. Until Merce and his crew start training world class fighters then I might view them differently. As of now. I will view there words as I do mine. A guy speaking on boxing on bgol.
Can we cut the shit?
Better resume... Manny
Better fighter/boxer... Floyd
We have been over this a million times and it is old. Buk wants to argue silly shit but when begged to support his shit. He has nothing. I'm still waiting on the articles from all the guys that buk says Floyd ducked. We have seen footage of Floyd saying they are ducking him from that time period so it isn't some rewriting history bullshit. The question is why were these guys ducking Floyd? The answer is he could beat them and there wasn't a lot of money in fighting him until he got De la.
Which brings us full cirlce to the topic at hand. Floyd is great because he goes in the ring with guys who should put up a good fight with anyone and Floyd beats them with ease. That's why he doesn't have tough fights. People don't want to believe it so they pick apart every fighter he has been against like they are bums. Marquez just proved that the hype is real and the weight excuse doesn't work nor should it work anyways because any who signs a contact to fight at a weight should be prepaired to fight at that weight.
Manny has trouble with quality fighters. Thats why he has wars. That's why Cotto can come up off the ground and have success boxing for a few rounds. That's why Mosley can shut down Manny's Offense with movement but ate everything from Floyd... cause he doesn't have that trouble. People who don't like Floyd are frustrated with the idea that he is that good. Th e reality is you can pick anyone in boxing, morph them into Floyd's size and none of them have the skill set to beat him on paper.
Better resume... Manny
Better fighter/boxer... Floyd
We have been over this a million times and it is old. Buk wants to argue silly shit but when begged to support his shit. He has nothing. I'm still waiting on the articles from all the guys that buk says Floyd ducked. We have seen footage of Floyd saying they are ducking him from that time period so it isn't some rewriting history bullshit. The question is why were these guys ducking Floyd? The answer is he could beat them and there wasn't a lot of money in fighting him until he got De la.
Which brings us full cirlce to the topic at hand. Floyd is great because he goes in the ring with guys who should put up a good fight with anyone and Floyd beats them with ease. That's why he doesn't have tough fights. People don't want to believe it so they pick apart every fighter he has been against like they are bums. Marquez just proved that the hype is real and the weight excuse doesn't work nor should it work anyways because any who signs a contact to fight at a weight should be prepaired to fight at that weight.
Manny has trouble with quality fighters. Thats why he has wars. That's why Cotto can come up off the ground and have success boxing for a few rounds. That's why Mosley can shut down Manny's Offense with movement but ate everything from Floyd... cause he doesn't have that trouble. People who don't like Floyd are frustrated with the idea that he is that good. Th e reality is you can pick anyone in boxing, morph them into Floyd's size and none of them have the skill set to beat him on paper.
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Also let just this last thing, because some how this lost in the discussion. Floyd moved from 130 because there were no tough fights and quality guys didn't want to fight him, the same 135, and 140. At 147 he was critized for not fight real welters, but know he has done that also. So we need stop acting like Floyd hasn't out classed in his divisions and moved up to fight better guys. He has done it already, but he is clearly good enough to make it look easier than it should be. If he moves up again we will be happy. If he doesn't he has good opponents at his weight and has proved enough already to be called great. The other thing that has tip people over to the move up column is how he beat good fighter who should in the ring as a middle weight. Is it not odd that buk sung Manny's praises for beating Margarito just off size factor but he rips the Ortiz fight... I think he would be sad if Floyd move up again, because if Floyd runs through some of those guys to, he'll explain how each one of them are bums and Floyd needs a real challenge at middleweight to fight light heavy weights like Chavez. When will it stop? If Floyd fought and beat Martinez... most people would give him goat status while buk will be saying he still hasn't had any tough fights.
There really isn't anything worthwhile to reply to in this post except for this. PBF is a great talent. I think my frustration is he doesn't try to make great fights.
ok. I mean if that is how you feel, cool.
C/S...if there is one thing I hate about PBF is his talking about how he better than Ray Robinson & Ali
we can clearly see he will easily outclass Pac...he definitely needs to push this fight before Arum makes Pac Vs JMM 4...& if JMM clearly dominates again that diminishes Pac even further...PBF needs to act now & really push fighting Pac before the summer....
Sergio is a toss up IMO.....I don't think PBF needs Sergio on his resume with the way 154 currently looks....& vice versa Sergio can still have big fights around his weight class...& can easily move up & have huge fights against Bute, Ward in the future....
I agree on the sergio thing. I find it odd no one who is constantly asking for what Floyd is or isn't doing, but they don't ask the same of his possible opponents. Pac is blasting guys away at WW. They don't even want to fight when they feel the heat, and I'm constantly hearing that beats guys more impressively, but for some reason it is understood that he is okay were he is at and he can fight the Bradleys out there with no complaint.
While Martinez says he wants to fight WW when he has dominated MW. How many times have we here the Hatton fight was a bad fight cause the guy fought at one class below Floyd? I see no consistency in these arguments. If the best fighters move up... why is Martinez fight even acceptable? Shouldn't Martinez be Canada going head to head with Bute? Or atleast fighting guys at 160 instead of 154? If Martinez can beat Floyd does that mean anything and if it doesn't are we chalking it up to Martinez' size? If that is the case in any of your minds, then what exactly is Floyd proving he wins... that he beat a lesser skilled guy again.
Oh and no one is fucking with Robinson. It is impossible to what he did today. Not skills but the fact that dude would fight like 5 times a month. They won't allow shit like that no more.
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I hate that about PBF too. I mean I was talking bout that to a certain degree. And we were saying how can PBF even think he is in the same or better class than SRL. I find it mind boggling. Most people do. But that is part of his charm. I guess, lol.C/S...if there is one thing I hate about PBF is his talking about how he better than Ray Robinson & Ali
we can clearly see he will easily outclass Pac...he definitely needs to push this fight before Arum makes Pac Vs JMM 4...& if JMM clearly dominates again that diminishes Pac even further...PBF needs to act now & really push fighting Pac before the summer....
Sergio is a toss up IMO.....I don't think PBF needs Sergio on his resume with the way 154 currently looks....& vice versa Sergio can still have big fights around his weight class...& can easily move up & have huge fights against Bute, Ward in the future....
I would be blown away if Manny beat PBF or even made it competitive. I don't see it. But then again I am willing to assume I am totally wrong. Because if PBF truly felt it was an easy fight he would have made it. That of course is my opinion.
The sergio thing in maddening. I love to see him fight PBF. But I also want to see him clean out the MW division. Sergio trying to fight a tiny 144 pound pac is stupid. But him dropping to get in the ring with a 154 pound PBF is interesting for both fighters.
because it was shown on HBO he could not perform at that weight class. It was already known he looks like shit at 147 and Ricky wasn't ready for PBF at that weight. He had a better shot at 140. We all saw him look like shit at 147. Which is why IMO that fight was made at that weight. Ricky wanted the money and got that and a KO. I give it to him. He at least tried.
Dude's skill was amazing though. He could go from a finesse boxer to a hunter/killer type of fighter at a whim. I used to balk at calling him the GOAT, but he is.
It had nothing to do with weight. Collazo is a better boxer than Hatton and he was robbed... simple. Callazo didn't bully Hatton with his weight or punch his lights out... he beat him with skill. Can't motherfuckers just lose anymore?
I wasn't knocking his skills at all. I'm just saying there will always be a special fighter to come up the ranks on that end of the spectrum, but no will match his resume.
Why am I responding... nevermind this post buk.
And there you go. Hopefully we never have to rehash this again.
C/S...if there is one thing I hate about PBF is his talking about how he better than Ray Robinson & Ali
we can clearly see he will easily outclass Pac...he definitely needs to push this fight before Arum makes Pac Vs JMM 4...& if JMM clearly dominates again that diminishes Pac even further...PBF needs to act now & really push fighting Pac before the summer....
Sergio is a toss up IMO.....I don't think PBF needs Sergio on his resume with the way 154 currently looks....& vice versa Sergio can still have big fights around his weight class...& can easily move up & have huge fights against Bute, Ward in the future....
Seeing how knowledgeable and respectful of the history of boxing and boxers he and his family seem to be, I would be surprised if, in a serious conversation, he really believed that shit.
He can push for it all he wants, if Arum has other plans, then it won't happen. Arum doesn't like Floyd and Manny is by far his biggest draw and he isn't eager to devalue his fighter anymore than he has been in the last JMM fight.
With Sergio, it's not a make or break fight for either of them but to be considered in that truly great pantheon like Ali and Robinson, he would have to be at least one more top fighter and Sergio is the best option. Beating the true king of 154 and 160 would be an incredible feather nearly on par with Jones winning a heavyweight title.
I know you weren't, I just wanted to throw that in there. Plus the fact that the only videos that exist of Ray are of him already past his prime.
We will.
I think skill-wise, Floyd believes he's just as good, if not better than either of them - and he truly might be right. Imho Floyd's skills can be matched against any elite fighter in his weight range throughout the history of boxing, and nine times out of ten, I'd put my money on Floyd. BECAUSE he's so knowledgeable, he knows this to be true also. As far as his seemingnly disrespectful nature when addressing the subject? That's just an act, him being Money May. I'm sure dude has the utmost reverence for those other fighters that he compares himself to.
Exactly why I would love that fight to happen. It would be quite something to see Floyd beat a much bigger, elite fighter like Sergio, especially if he won in an impressive fashion. Throw in a win over Marquez and if it happens, a win over Pacquiao, and Floyd could end his career having beat the other three best P4P fighters in the world - late in his career. Which to me is just as impressive as what Jones did. Especially, if he does to Pacquiao and Sergio what he did to Juan.
As far as Sergio's last fight and how he looked....I chalk it up to styles making fights and an off night for Sergio. But he did what elite fighters do on an off night, he put his opponent away regardless.
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