Canelo, Morales Eye Mayweather as Pacquiao Plays Out

[Zeferino]

I didn't think he looker larger, just more healthy. Floyd is naturally around 147-150 while those two guys are naturally 160+ so while they have to cut weight, Floyd doesn't very similar to De La Hoya at 154.



I don't think most people see him in the top 20 range either just because other guys have much better resumes. Everybody has knocks on them: low skill level, number of losses, or resume. Floyd's is the third one.



I don't it tarnishes his legacy at all. Cheating tarnishes resumes (Margarito will never recover from the padded glove debacle). Not having a great resume will just be the one negative working against him, something everyone has to one degree or another.




He never ducked tarver or darius. In fact, Michalczewski was ducking him. Roy was the top fighter in the world while Michalczewski was a relative unknown who rarely left Germany and seemed to always get the benefit of the doubt from local judges. Plus the dollar was more valuable than the Euro at the time so the onus was on Michalczewski, not Jones to make that fight.
Who the hell was Antonio Tarver to be ducked? When he was the top contender, he got a shot and lost. He only got a rematch because he was the first guy to win 3 rounds off Jones in years.



I have to strongly disagree. For all his shortcomings, Ruiz was a legitimate heavyweight champion who won his title in the ring (as opposed to it being given to him by a sanctioning body or beating another unranked heavyweight like Pacquiao won his jr middleweight title).
Boy, if Roy had made and won those fights with Holyfield and/or Tyson, they would be building a new wing on the Boxing HoF.





One thing about the idea that Floyd left a lot of fights on the table in different weight classes:

Is this being said with the understanding that until the De La Hoya fight, no one wanted to fight Mayweather. He was the ultimate high risk-low reward opponent out there. He wasn't even selling out the big halls in Las Vegas and that was with significant names like Corrales, Castillo, and Judah. Kostya Tsyzu didn't want to fight him. Arum was keeping him from Cotto and Margarito because he promoted all three. Mosley went on vacation instead of fighting him.
Don't revise history to make your point.

I also reject the idea he hasn't dominated the welterweight division. Shane Mosley was the top welterweight when they fought. Zab Judah was the top welterweight when they signed to fight and was still a champion when they fought. Carlos Baldomir was the guy who beat Judah and he was the top welter when they fought. Victor Ortiz, same. He didn't plow through the number 2,3,4 guys, he fought whoever was on top of the welterweight division. Even Hatton, not a top welter but still the WBA champion of the division and undefeated. He looked bad against Collazo but a lot of orthodox fighters look bad against southpaws (don't some of you still insist that Mayweathter is vulnerable to southpaws despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?).

Great objective post and not because I agree with all of it. I actually disagree with the part about Floyd dominating welterweight but that's a pretty good argument you made. I see domination differently. To me dominating a division is like what Naseem Hamed did in his prime. He unified by knocking out every single other champ at 126 and even took care of the top 5 contenders too in devastating fashion. Jones was similar at 175. Ricardo Lopez also did this. The way Floyd just takes time off, is barely active in the division, doesn't defend titles, missed several top 3 guys in the division, just doesn't seem like the picture of a guy dominating his division.

 

[Alaskanredman]

But dave come on... its Ruiz. Fucking Ruiz. I would make an argument about wack he is, but you have to remember struggling to get through one of his fights. Think about the guys he beat. He survived in division that was weak as hell. So much talk about resumes and I find it funny who is given a pass and who isn't. Essentially giving a motherfucker props for getting fat and/or bulking up to beat a real bum, not even a guy who is debatable with good wins in the mix, is weird to me. It would be different if we were talking about a guy who moved up and was on the same level as Ruiz or even just a little better, but when we are talking about an out of the world talent put on weight and beat a guy who has never won against anyone good fighter. There is Holyfield I think but he was old. Ok, I made an argument.

 

[merce77]

But dave come on... its Ruiz. Fucking Ruiz. I would make an argument about wack he is, but you have to remember struggling to get through one of his fights. Think about the guys he beat. He survived in division that was weak as hell. So much talk about resumes and I find it funny who is given a pass and who isn't. Essentially giving a motherfucker props for getting fat and/or bulking up to beat a real bum, not even a guy who is debatable with good wins in the mix, is weird to me. It would be different if we were talking about a guy who moved up and was on the same level as Ruiz or even just a little better, but when we are talking about an out of the world talent put on weight and beat a guy who has never won against anyone good fighter. There is Holyfield I think but he was old. Ok, I made an argument.

I agree with some of what you said. One thing you gotta remember is that these are professional fighters. You can take a dude with an 0-15 record and he could probably pick apart 3 or 4 regular men on the street at the same time, I've seen it happen with old neighborhood fighters. No matter how much of a bum you think Ruiz is (and he is), dude was still a pro who fought everyone in the division and managed to win the title. I still say Roy should have stayed and fought Mike Tyson. Mike was shot and it would have been quite a feather in Roy's cap.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

But dave come on... its Ruiz. Fucking Ruiz. I would make an argument about wack he is, but you have to remember struggling to get through one of his fights. Think about the guys he beat. He survived in division that was weak as hell. So much talk about resumes and I find it funny who is given a pass and who isn't. Essentially giving a motherfucker props for getting fat and/or bulking up to beat a real bum, not even a guy who is debatable with good wins in the mix, is weird to me. It would be different if we were talking about a guy who moved up and was on the same level as Ruiz or even just a little better, but when we are talking about an out of the world talent put on weight and beat a guy who has never won against anyone good fighter. There is Holyfield I think but he was old. Ok, I made an argument.

God. Every time I think this crew is under control, you or merce says something contrary
How many times must I tell you both: all disagreements are to be handled in pm, never in public. Damn, it's like talking to a woman.



Back to the Quiet Man
There is no argument that he was a great champion, he wasn't. I hated watching him fight. But he was a legitimate champ. The division was weak but he beat the competition put in front of him, which is all you can ask of a fighter.
Even in a weak division, which heavyweight still is, you don't see tons of guys moving up from middleweight/super middleweight and winning any share of a heavyweight title. The fact that it's still something that's not done, makes Jones' accomplishment special.

I agree with some of what you said. One thing you gotta remember is that these are professional fighters. You can take a dude with an 0-15 record and he could probably pick apart 3 or 4 regular men on the street at the same time, I've seen it happen with old neighborhood fighters. No matter how much of a bum you think Ruiz is (and he is), dude was still a pro who fought everyone in the division and managed to win the title. I still say Roy should have stayed and fought Mike Tyson. Mike was shot and it would have been quite a feather in Roy's cap.

He had to be kicking himself when James Toney beat up Evander since he had been negotiating with Evander previously.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Great objective post and not because I agree with all of it. I actually disagree with the part about Floyd dominating welterweight but that's a pretty good argument you made. I see domination differently. To me dominating a division is like what Naseem Hamed did in his prime. He unified by knocking out every single other champ at 126 and even took care of the top 5 contenders too in devastating fashion. Jones was similar at 175. Ricardo Lopez also did this. The way Floyd just takes time off, is barely active in the division, doesn't defend titles, missed several top 3 guys in the division, just doesn't seem like the picture of a guy dominating his division.

Gotcha. Good examples.
Since the De La Hoya fight, Floyd hasn't been about titles, just big, "event" fights. At that level and with titles being so devalued, championships become secondary.

 

[merce77]

God. Every time I think this crew is under control, you or merce says something contrary
How many times must I tell you both: all disagreements are to be handled in pm, never in public. Damn, it's like talking to a woman.



Back to the Quiet Man
There is no argument that he was a great champion, he wasn't. I hated watching him fight. But he was a legitimate champ. The division was weak but he beat the competition put in front of him, which is all you can ask of a fighter.
Even in a weak division, which heavyweight still is, you don't see tons of guys moving up from middleweight/super middleweight and winning any share of a heavyweight title. The fact that it's still something that's not done, makes Jones' accomplishment special.




He had to be kicking himself when James Toney beat up Evander since he had been negotiating with Evander previously.

I forgot. But Dave, you just broke the first and only rule. First rule of co-sign club - YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT CO-SIGN CLUB!!!!!

 

[Alaskanredman]

How many times must I tell you both: all disagreements are to be handled in pm, never in public. Damn, it's like talking to a woman.
Back to the Quiet Man
There is no argument that he was a great champion, he wasn't. I hated watching him fight. But he was a legitimate champ. The division was weak but he beat the competition put in front of him, which is all you can ask of a fighter.
Even in a weak division, which heavyweight still is, you don't see tons of guys moving up from middleweight/super middleweight and winning any share of a heavyweight title. The fact that it's still something that's not done, makes Jones' accomplishment special.

So you mothersfuckers aren't just going to co sign me? What kind of crew is this? Fuck you guys I'm out. All I'm saying is any time the motherfucker fought someone who was a little more than average Ruiz was in trouble. Roy was insane and what we are saying is the weight was a challenge not Ruiz. I can dig that, but motherfuckers who are good like that have proven they can do their job with the weight... the tough part is the weight and just a good boxer in front of you too.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

Gotcha. Good examples.
Since the De La Hoya fight, Floyd hasn't been about titles, just big, "event" fights. At that level and with titles being so devalued, championships become secondary.

I agree. Point in case. Ortiz vs pbf was classic Floyd. He fights a guy who really has no chance and tries to build it as an event. To me that is his downfall. You just can't be great and not go up against the best. Ortiz was a few fights from quitting. Getting a belt did not erase that to me.

Ruiz has my resepect. I hated watching him and roy fight. To me each fighter had ugly matches. But at least John stepped in the ring with anyone. That made him a great champ in my eyes.

Titles are not devalued as much as the best fight not caring about them.

 

[Alaskanredman]

I'm so broken up by the lack of support, I'm going to go cry in the car. That shit must be funny cause buk has used that line like 20 times since the Marquez fight.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

I forgot. But Dave, you just broke the first and only rule. First rule of co-sign club - YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT CO-SIGN CLUB!!!!!

Man, the CSC is the worst kept secret cabal since the Illuminati.

So you mothersfuckers aren't just going to co sign me? What kind of crew is this? Fuck you guys I'm out.

All I'm saying is any time the motherfucker fought someone who was a little more than average Ruiz was in trouble. Roy was insane and what we are saying is the weight was a challenge not Ruiz. I can dig that, but motherfuckers who aren't good like have proven they can do their job with the weight... the tough part is the weight and just a good boxer too.

I am not disagreeing with you (so get out of your car), I just think Roy deserves more credit for the win than you want to give him.

I agree. Point in case. Ortiz vs pbf was classic Floyd. He fights a guy who really has no chance and tries to build it as an event. To me that is his downfall. You just can't be great and not go up against the best. Ortiz was a few fights from quitting. Getting a belt did not erase that to me.

Ortiz was everything everyone said Floyd would never fight: bigger, younger, southpaw, straight forward brawler that would force him to fight and he fought the guy. There aren't any welterweights who do stand more than a puncher's chance against Mayweather at this point so it's on him to make each fight an event.
When was the last time the other top p4p guy took on a guy in which he wasn't the clear favorite before the fight? I seem to remember some people even thought Pacquiao would dominate JMM.
I hate to always play that tit for tat game but you can't knock one fighter and boost another when they're doing the EXACT SAME THING in terms of how they're handling their careers.

Ruiz has my resepect. I hated watching him and roy fight. To me each fighter had ugly matches. But at least John stepped in the ring with anyone. That made him a great champ in my eyes.

And Roy didn't?????? C'mon man. Stop.

Ruiz was a great champion?????

I hate when dudes get high/drunk and start posting shit.

Titles are not devalued as much as the best fight not caring about them.

The best fighters don't care about them because they don't mean shit.

I'm so broken up by the lack of support, I'm going to go cry in the car. That shit must be funny cause buk has used that line like 20 times since the Marquez.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

Ortiz was everything everyone said Floyd would never fight: bigger, younger, southpaw, straight forward brawler that would force him to fight and he fought the guy. There aren't any welterweights who do stand more than a puncher's chance against Mayweather at this point so it's on him to make each fight an event.
When was the last time the other top p4p guy took on a guy in which he wasn't the clear favorite before the fight? I seem to remember some people even thought Pacquiao would dominate JMM.
I hate to always play that tit for tat game but you can't knock one fighter and boost another when they're doing the EXACT SAME THING in terms of how they're handling their careers.

WHO IS EVERYBODY? I never said anything about pbf fighting a younger bigger fighter. Ortiz was the last person that derserved a title match against pbf. What I have always said is he goes out his way to make sure he has a clear advantage against his opponents. When I see him fight an old shane, an overweight juan, ricky in a weight class we all saw him look like ass in. I have a problem. When I say move up I don't mean for him to take an easy fight. I expect him to fight cotto or sergio. A pound for pound fighter with skill, size, and are fighting at a high level. Pbf fighting ortiz was lame. I hate seeing a talent fool people into making them think he is great by taking easy fights. I personally think canelo fight is another ortiz fight. He isn't read for pbf nor is khan. Pbf needs to face a vet that is in the position that they can win. He does that. Dude will look better.

I thought manny was going to dominate. I like a fool totally dismissed the first two fights. Juan not only knows how to fight manny. But he is also able to execute that plan.

 

[merce77]

Ortiz was everything everyone said Floyd would never fight: bigger, younger, southpaw, straight forward brawler that would force him to fight and he fought the guy. There aren't any welterweights who do stand more than a puncher's chance against Mayweather at this point so it's on him to make each fight an event.
When was the last time the other top p4p guy took on a guy in which he wasn't the clear favorite before the fight? I seem to remember some people even thought Pacquiao would dominate JMM.
I hate to always play that tit for tat game but you can't knock one fighter and boost another when they're doing the EXACT SAME THING in terms of how they're handling their careers.

WHO IS EVERYBODY? I never said anything about pbf fighting a younger bigger fighter. Ortiz was the last person that derserved a title match against pbf. What I have always said is he goes out his way to make sure he has a clear advantage against his opponents. When I see him fight an old shane, an overweight juan, ricky in a weight class we all saw him look like ass in. I have a problem. When I say move up I don't mean for him to take an easy fight. I expect him to fight cotto or sergio. A pound for pound fighter with skill, size, and are fighting at a high level. Pbf fighting ortiz was lame. I hate seeing a talent fool people into making them think he is great by taking easy fights. I personally think canelo fight is another ortiz fight. He isn't read for pbf nor is khan. Pbf needs to face a vet that is in the position that they can win. He does that. Dude will look better.

I thought manny was going to dominate. I like a fool totally dismissed the first two fights. Juan not only knows how to fight manny. But he is also able to execute that plan.

Okay, so which fighter would Floyd fight at is weight that he doesn't have a clear advantage over? Even if he moves up in weight to fight Serg, the only advantage Serg would have is weight and power. Just like Ortiz. Manny won't fight him - so who else is there. And don't say Khan, he's not ready at all and there's no guarantee he makes it past Peterson.

 

[Alaskanredman]

I still think Khan was a better choice than Ortiz, and if Khan fights Mayweather at some point, I think people will see it. He has shit to work on and he is atleast smart enough to see it unlike most of the fighters in the game.

 

[merce77]

I still think Khan was a better choice than Ortiz, and if Khan fights Mayweather at some point, I think people will see it. He has shit to work on and he is atleast smart enough to see it unlike most of the fighters in the game.

At the time the fight was made, I still think Ortiz was the better choice. Coming off a huge win AT welterweight. Khan would have been another 140lb fighter moving up to fight Floyd. I like Khan but I see so many technical flaws in him. His footwork is shit, and his combos are sloppy. I want to see how he does against Peterson who is a good technical fighter and of comparable height and longer reach. Though Lamont did lose almost every round to Tim Bradley, he beat Victor Ortiz and was robbed. IDK, none of these young guys coming up to 147 impress me. Floyd should look to 154 for his next opponent.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

Okay, so which fighter would Floyd fight at is weight that he doesn't have a clear advantage over? Even if he moves up in weight to fight Serg, the only advantage Serg would have is weight and power. Just like Ortiz. Manny won't fight him - so who else is there. And don't say Khan, he's not ready at all and there's no guarantee he makes it past Peterson.

I guess Cotto, Sergio, Sturm, Kirkland, Angulo, maybe chavez jr, Lee and Zbik. These guys all have the power to put PBF in another place in the ring that he has never been in. I am sticking with my 154 to 160 divisions. PBF has the talent and skill to move up that high. I like to see him attempt it. The little guy parade is just old with me. Khan still doesn't have it yet. He could be a valid opponent but later. Manny is smaller and I am just not interested in the fight. It was cool, but him in the ring with bigger people and he can't even weigh more than 144 is boring me too. He has fought heavier people and it was cool. I like to see what he is going to do next.

I mean Merce you even said something of the same as me with pbf fighting smaller guys. It is just old to me.

 

[merce77]

I guess Cotto, Sergio, Sturm, Kirkland, Angulo, maybe chavez jr, Lee and Zbik. These guys all have the power to put PBF in another place in the ring that he has never been in. I am sticking with my 154 to 160 divisions. PBF has the talent and skill to move up that high. I like to see him attempt it. The little guy parade is just old with me. Khan still doesn't have it yet. He could be a valid opponent but later. Manny is smaller and I am just not interested in the fight. It was cool, but him in the ring with bigger people and he can't even weigh more than 144 is boring me too. He has fought heavier people and it was cool. I like to see what he is going to do next.

I mean Merce you even said something of the same as me with pbf fighting smaller guys. It is just old to me.

I don't want to see him fight smaller guys either, but I'd rather see him fight Khan than Andy Lee, Zbik or Felix Sturm. None of those guys bring in any money either. I mean it's not like Floyd is the only guy who has done this. Leonard would only fight guys who brought in money or as Dave said, could sell a big event. It just so happens that in his era, these divisions were packed with great fighters, not just decent ones. But it's not like Leonard jumped in the ring with Marlon Starling, Lloyd Honeyghan, Donald Curry, Mike McCallum - these were EXCELLENT fighters and he left all those fights on the table. Do you honestly think it's because Ray was scared? IMHO it's gonna take a lot more than size and power to beat Floyd. The Oscar fight showed me that. Now will Floyd look as dominant at 154-160 as he's looked at welter, I say no. But I do honestly believe he could beat most of those guys you mentioned easily, with the exception of Kirkland and Sergio. Chavez Jr shouldn't even be mentioned on that list - he hasn't earned even a fight with Sergio.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

I don't want to see him fight smaller guys either, but I'd rather see him fight Khan than Andy Lee, Zbik or Felix Sturm. None of those guys bring in any money either. I mean it's not like Floyd is the only guy who has done this. Leonard would only fight guys who brought in money or as Dave said, could sell a big event. It just so happens that in his era, these divisions were packed with great fighters, not just decent ones. But it's not like Leonard jumped in the ring with Marlon Starling, Lloyd Honeyghan, Donald Curry, Mike McCallum - these were EXCELLENT fighters and he left all those fights on the table. Do you honestly think it's because Ray was scared? IMHO it's gonna take a lot more than size and power to beat Floyd. The Oscar fight showed me that. Now will Floyd look as dominant at 154-160 as he's looked at welter, I say no. But I do honestly believe he could beat most of those guys you mentioned easily, with the exception of Kirkland and Sergio. Chavez Jr shouldn't even be mentioned on that list - he hasn't earned even a fight with Sergio.

Once again people really need to stop comparing PBF to SRL. SRL earned his props by fighting hall of famers in their prime. Hell he even fought Hearns who outboxed him twice and Duran who took it to fim in fight 1. Hell, only mike is a name of a fighter out of that group you named that could give SRL problems. But there are more names on his list of fights SRL made than not. And you forget. SRL big fights were because he fought awesome opponents. A huge difference.

I am sure PBF would have a great chance of beating those guys. But I can't say for sure. I think they would pose a unique problem for PBF.

 

[merce77]

Once again people really need to stop comparing PBF to SRL. SRL earned his props by fighting hall of famers in their prime. Hell he even fought Hearns who outboxed him twice and Duran who took it to fim in fight 1. Hell, only mike is a name of a fighter out of that group you named that could give SRL problems. But there are more names on his list of fights SRL made than not. And you forget. SRL big fights were because he fought awesome opponents. A huge difference.

I am sure PBF would have a great chance of beating those guys. But I can't say for sure. I think they would pose a unique problem for PBF.

Again, did I not say that Leonard fought in an era of GREAT fighters. To be honest the welterweight and superwelterweight divisions are shit compared to Leonard's era. But if you think Starling and Curry wouldn't give Leonard trouble then why even mention guys like Angulo or Zbik or Sturm in terms of opponents for Floyd. When Starling, Curry or Honeyghan were twice the fighters any of those mostly bums that you mentioned are. You're saying that Leonard wouldn't have had problems with any of those great fighters I mentioned so it doesn't matter that he didn't fight them - but he didn't fight them - which is your VERY argument against Floyd.

 

[Alaskanredman]

At the time the fight was made, I still think Ortiz was the better choice. Coming off a huge win AT welterweight. Khan would have been another 140lb fighter moving up to fight Floyd. I like Khan but I see so many technical flaws in him. His footwork is shit, and his combos are sloppy. I want to see how he does against Peterson who is a good technical fighter and of comparable height and longer reach. Though Lamont did lose almost every round to Tim Bradley, he beat Victor Ortiz and was robbed. IDK, none of these young guys coming up to 147 impress me. Floyd should look to 154 for his next opponent.

Look I don't have the biggest problem with the Ortiz fight, but I still like Khan better at this point, mainly because he knows he has shit he needs to fix and he is going against guys who will prepare him for a slick fighter. Malinaggi, Judah, Peterson and even trying to get Bradley. No one else trying to hit the Floyd lottery is even going that route. Manny , Sergio or anyone else. Sergio looks slick fighting stiff Europeans, but he if he steps in there with a Floyd type fighter, he will be lost.

 

[merce77]

Look I don't have the biggest problem with the Ortiz fight, but I still like Khan better at this point, mainly because he knows he has shit he needs to fix and he is going against guys who will prepare him for a slick fighter. Malinaggi, Judah, Peterson and even trying to get Bradley. No one else trying to hit the Floyd lottery is even going that route. Manny , Sergio or anyone else. Sergio looks slick fighting stiff Europeans, but he if he steps in there with a Floyd type fighter, he will be lost.

Good points. Then again Khan is a GB fighter as opposed to Top Rank. I don't think Sergio would be lost though, it's not like he's a low IQ fighter.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Good points. I don't think Sergio would be lost though, it's not like he's a low IQ fighter.

Maybe lost is too strong, but in the 11th round I would expect him have the face Manny had in the corner when he was listening to Roach tell him absolutely nothing and knowing he had to deal with a guy who wasn't falling apart under the pressure of the usual shit.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

A couple of things. I can't knock srl for not fighting anyone but pryor. But to me he missed just that one fighter. You can argue barkley too. But for the most part he fought the best. And like manny fought his hearns, juan. A fighter that outboxes you but you somehow pull out the win. Most people just want to see pbf fight the best opponent he has had since chico and shane were hovering around him.

Nobody in my opinion derserves or is ready to see pbf at 147. Well manny deserves a match but it is not competitive to me. But i could be wrong. Pbf may walk through the names I mentioned but I doubt it. These are not guys made for him to walk through. In my humble opinion.

 

[tp2001]

One thing about the idea that Floyd left a lot of fights on the table in different weight classes:

Is this being said with the understanding that until the De La Hoya fight, no one wanted to fight Mayweather. He was the ultimate high risk-low reward opponent out there. He wasn't even selling out the big halls in Las Vegas and that was with significant names like Corrales, Castillo, and Judah. Kostya Tsyzu didn't want to fight him. Arum was keeping him from Cotto and Margarito because he promoted all three. Mosley went on vacation instead of fighting him.

Don't revise history to make your point.

I also reject the idea he hasn't dominated the welterweight division. Shane Mosley was the top welterweight when they fought. Zab Judah was the top welterweight when they signed to fight and was still a champion when they fought. Carlos Baldomir was the guy who beat Judah and he was the top welter when they fought. Victor Ortiz, same. He didn't plow through the number 2,3,4 guys, he fought whoever was on top of the welterweight division. Even Hatton, not a top welter but still the WBA champion of the division and undefeated. He looked bad against Collazo but a lot of orthodox fighters look bad against southpaws (don't some of you still insist that Mayweather is vulnerable to southpaws despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?).

^^^ this right here

Funny how he was one of the best pound-for-pound fighters in the sport since he was at the 135lb. division, and yet after he decimated Corrales, other people wouldn't want to fight him. That point of yours Dave about him not selling out halls and arenas I believe. No one back then wanted to see him fight Henry Bruseles...Come on man. His whole demeanor and marketing strategy did not change until before the Gatti fight. He took the "bad guy" angle and ran with it. He tried to go forward with that in the 140lb. division but no one wanted to buy it, so he tried 147. As mentioned before, he could have been the undisputed welterweight champ (and unofficially is) if Judah didn't screw up against Baldomir. Floyd finally got on the big money scene when he was matched up against De La Hoya, and yes that is because Mosley gave the okay for it because Floyd was supposed to fight him then (and it would have been a much closer fight).

I excuse Floyd's resume because other than Paul Williams a few years ago and Sergio now, who else could he fight? Cotto, Margarito, Clottey, and Pac are all under Arum's stranglehold so there was no way Floyd was going to fight those guys. If Berto would have won that fight against Ortiz, Floyd would have fought him and then maybe Ortiz later on. In addition to that, I feel that he will fight Amir Khan next year (in September or October in Wembley) and call it after that...nothing else to prove...

 

[Upgrade Dave]

At the time the fight was made, I still think Ortiz was the better choice. Coming off a huge win AT welterweight. Khan would have been another 140lb fighter moving up to fight Floyd. I like Khan but I see so many technical flaws in him. His footwork is shit, and his combos are sloppy. I want to see how he does against Peterson who is a good technical fighter and of comparable height and longer reach. Though Lamont did lose almost every round to Tim Bradley, he beat Victor Ortiz and was robbed. IDK, none of these young guys coming up to 147 impress me. Floyd should look to 154 for his next opponent.

Exactly. Now, Khan looks to be the better opponent but at that time, which would be better received: Floyd fighting a strong Ortiz coming off a big win at 147 or Khan, a jr welterweight, who had never fought at 147?

I guess Cotto, Sergio, Sturm, Kirkland, Angulo, maybe chavez jr, Lee and Zbik. These guys all have the power to put PBF in another place in the ring that he has never been in. I am sticking with my 154 to 160 divisions. PBF has the talent and skill to move up that high. I like to see him attempt it. The little guy parade is just old with me. Khan still doesn't have it yet. He could be a valid opponent but later. Manny is smaller and I am just not interested in the fight. It was cool, but him in the ring with bigger people and he can't even weigh more than 144 is boring me too. He has fought heavier people and it was cool. I like to see what he is going to do next.

That is a ridiculous list. You do yourself a disservice with that type of shit.
You knock Ortiz because he was two fights away from quitting but you put Kirkland on and, at the time, he was one fight away from getting knocked out by a guy who couldn't break an egg. Angulo lost his biggest fight to Cintron, so how does he get a Mayweather fight?
Sturm???? He's a middleweight. At least try to stick to guys at 147-154 or just thrown in Andre Ward and Vitali Klitchko as well since weight divisions are meaningless to you.
Floyd does have the talent but he doesn't have the size for an extended run at jr middle. He already went up, beat De La Hoya at 154. Unlike Manny, he actually beat a top jr middle for a title.
You're tired of the "parade of small guys" but who are you talking about? Hatton, who had moved up to welterweight at that point, and JMM, who had no business taking that fight. Before that he fought Oscar and Baldomir and after that he fought Shane Mosley and Victor Ortiz. Every one of those guys is either his equal or bigger.

I don't want to see him fight smaller guys either, but I'd rather see him fight Khan than Andy Lee, Zbik or Felix Sturm. None of those guys bring in any money either. I mean it's not like Floyd is the only guy who has done this. Leonard would only fight guys who brought in money or as Dave said, could sell a big event. It just so happens that in his era, these divisions were packed with great fighters, not just decent ones. But it's not like Leonard jumped in the ring with Marlon Starling, Lloyd Honeyghan, Donald Curry, Mike McCallum - these were EXCELLENT fighters and he left all those fights on the table. Do you honestly think it's because Ray was scared? IMHO it's gonna take a lot more than size and power to beat Floyd. The Oscar fight showed me that. Now will Floyd look as dominant at 154-160 as he's looked at welter, I say no. But I do honestly believe he could beat most of those guys you mentioned easily, with the exception of Kirkland and Sergio. Chavez Jr shouldn't even be mentioned on that list - he hasn't earned even a fight with Sergio.

Thank you and good point with the fights Leonard didn't make. Every fighter has some of those. It's not about comparing Mayweather to Leonard, it's about applying the same standard to everyone.

^^^ this right here

Funny how he was one of the best pound-for-pound fighters in the sport since he was at the 135lb. division, and yet after he decimated Corrales, other people wouldn't want to fight him. That point of yours Dave about him not selling out halls and arenas I believe. No one back then wanted to see him fight Henry Bruseles...Come on man. His whole demeanor and marketing strategy did not change until before the Gatti fight. He took the "bad guy" angle and ran with it. He tried to go forward with that in the 140lb. division but no one wanted to buy it, so he tried 147. As mentioned before, he could have been the undisputed welterweight champ (and unofficially is) if Judah didn't screw up against Baldomir. Floyd finally got on the big money scene when he was matched up against De La Hoya, and yes that is because Mosley gave the okay for it because Floyd was supposed to fight him then (and it would have been a much closer fight).

...

Floyd was caught in a vicious cycle where he couldn't get any of the big names in the ring and because he wasn't a big name, he couldn't sell tickets or ppvs. There's a reason he took the Gatti fight in Atlantic City, he had to. Gatti was a big name and routinely sold out AC arenas and HBO had a hard-on about him because he was an exciting White fighter. He needed that fight because that would be the biggest stage he would have performed on at that point in his career.
I still think that if his fight with Judah hadn't done such surprising numbers, he wouldn't have gotten the Oscar fight. Like it or not, that cook out fight between the uncle and father got that fight a lot more mainstream pub that it would have gotten ordinarily which probably helped in replay ratings on HBO.
Not that he's the biggest name in the sport, everybody wants to fight. They're more than willing to take a L for one of those big paychecks.

 

[Alaskanredman]

I have never seen a fighter put under this type of microscope before and had his history re-written so much. It would be easier if cats just admit they don't fuck with dude and move on instead of creating a separate reality and a separate set of rules for one boxer... on top of that, changing the goal line. The shit is goofy at this point.

 

[Alaskanredman]

The only motherfucker who was talking big shit about Floyd and calling him out pre De La from what I remember was Hatton. Now excuses are maybe about why that fight shouldn't of happened and all these complaints about ducking of fights remains unsupported.

^^^ this right here

Funny how he was one of the best pound-for-pound fighters in the sport since he was at the 135lb. division, and yet after he decimated Corrales, other people wouldn't want to fight him. That point of yours Dave about him not selling out halls and arenas I believe. No one back then wanted to see him fight Henry Bruseles...Come on man. His whole demeanor and marketing strategy did not change until before the Gatti fight. He took the "bad guy" angle and ran with it. He tried to go forward with that in the 140lb. division but no one wanted to buy it, so he tried 147. As mentioned before, he could have been the undisputed welterweight champ (and unofficially is) if Judah didn't screw up against Baldomir. Floyd finally got on the big money scene when he was matched up against De La Hoya, and yes that is because Mosley gave the okay for it because Floyd was supposed to fight him then (and it would have been a much closer fight).

I excuse Floyd's resume because other than Paul Williams a few years ago and Sergio now, who else could he fight? Cotto, Margarito, Clottey, and Pac are all under Arum's stranglehold so there was no way Floyd was going to fight those guys. If Berto would have won that fight against Ortiz, Floyd would have fought him and then maybe Ortiz later on. In addition to that, I feel that he will fight Amir Khan next year (in September or October in Wembley) and call it after that...nothing else to prove...

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

I have never seen a fighter put under this type of microscope before and had his history re-written so much. It would be easier if cats just admit they don't fuck with dude and move on instead of creating a separate reality and a separate set of rules for one boxer... on top of that, changing the goal line. The shit is goofy at this point.

Dude. It is because of his resume. Compare his resume to any great fighter that you consider his equal or that pbf is better. No great fighter has as weak of a resume than him. Pbf's resume makes tyson's resume look awesome.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Dude. It is because of his resume. Compare his resume to any great fighter that you consider his equal or that pbf is better. No great fighter has as weak of a resume than him. Pbf's resume makes tyson's resume look awesome.

Okay... you're bugging. Larry Holmes comes to mind. Pryor also. That's not even trying but again you think Ruiz was a great champion.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

I have never seen a fighter put under this type of microscope before and had his history re-written so much. It would be easier if cats just admit they don't fuck with dude and move on instead of creating a separate reality and a separate set of rules for one boxer... on top of that, changing the goal line. The shit is goofy at this point.

It is.

Dude. It is because of his resume. Compare his resume to any great fighter that you consider his equal or that pbf is better. No great fighter has as weak of a resume than him. Pbf's resume makes tyson's resume look awesome.

Untrue.

Okay... you're bugging. Larry Holmes comes to mind. Pryor also. That's not even trying but again you think Ruiz was a great champion.

A great champion who took on anyone. How did that Lewis fight go? The only good to great heavyweight around when he was fighting so obviously they fought.

 

[merce77]

Maybe lost is too strong, but in the 11th round I would expect him have the face Manny had in the corner when he was listening to Roach tell him absolutely nothing and knowing he had to deal with a guy who wasn't falling apart under the pressure of the usual shit.

Ok gotchu. You may be right, mostly all Floyd's opponents make that face around the 11th rd. They have that "this is pointless" look on their grill.

 

[Alaskanredman]

It is.

Untrue.

A great champion who took on anyone. How did that Lewis fight go? The only good to great heavyweight around when he was fighting so obviously they fought.

I don't know on what planet Ruiz is a great champion, but you can discredit the worthiness of a fighter like Ortiz, who became champ by beating a good champion.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Ok gotchu. You may be right, mostly all Floyd's opponents make that face around the 11th rd. They have that "this is pointless" look on their grill.

It is an interesting match up but Martinez would also have to be an aggressor instead of counter puncher to boot... Then through his reckless defense he is going to try and land a luck shot... Its possible but I see a whole lot of problems for Martinez.

It's going to take a mother fucker who is stupid fast.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

I don't know on what planet Ruiz is a great champion, but you can discredit the worthiness of a fighter like Ortiz, who became champ by beating a good champion.

Any champ that defends his belt against whoever they throw in front on them deserves to be considered a great champ. Ortiz quit, then got beaten by Peterson. Afterwards put on a great show with Berto then collapsed mentally cause he wasn't ready for the big show. But somehow you think little of a two time heavyweight champ that had a pretty good trilogy with holyfield. But then think highly of Ortiz. Who proved everything I said how he didn't deserve the fight with pbf somehow worthy of praise and a shot. Funny.

Hey, do you think PBF's resume is better than Tyson's? Do you think PBF actually stepped in the ring with better opponents than Mike?

 

[Alaskanredman]

Any champ that defends his belt against whoever they throw in front on them deserves to be considered a great champ. Ortiz quit, then got beaten by Peterson. Afterwards put on a great show with Berto then collapsed mentally cause he wasn't ready for the big show. But somehow you think little of a two time heavyweight champ that had a pretty good trilogy with holyfield. But then think highly of Ortiz. Who proved everything I said how he didn't deserve the fight with pbf somehow worthy of praise and a shot. Funny.

Hey, do you think PBF's resume is better than Tyson's? Do you think PBF actually stepped in the ring with better opponents than Mike?

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

That's is usually what you post when you are waiting on Merce to comment on the subject first. I gotcha.