FLASHBACK THREAD 2007: At Kobe's present output can he overtake MJ as best player in the NBA by the end

[drbombae]

Hell the fuck NO! Have you seen Kobe's defense since Shaq left? Mafuka couldn't stop Moms Mabley.

 

[trekei]

How About kobe being as good a leader /playmaker as Magic . Throw a monkey wrench at laker fans.

 

[Frank Wilson]

Man. Every time this cats scores a bunch of points..this MJ shit comes up. Jordan evalated his game during the playoffs and specifically during the finals. What did Kobe do in the playoffs last year...he tanked the game 7. He did not miss shots..he decided to passively watch the game and take 1 shot in the second half and watch his team get booted. He showed his leadership abilities then.You have to be brain dead to compare Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. Kobe is struggling to keep his team in the fucking playoffs. He is not playing for titles..be is playing just to make the playoffs ever since Shaq left. Regarding the titles he has attained. Any man with an understanding of basketball easily understood that Kobe was apart of the SUPPORTING cast on the Laker teams that won titles. If you switch his name with any other shooting guard/forward of similar playing ability those teams continue win titles just as they did. He was apart of the support:Horry, Fisher, Kobe etc. This was not some type of 2 man wrecking crew..that was Shaq's team. Those teams won and lost and Shaq's back. As Kobe began to get more clock and take more shots..the decline in winning percentage began. When Kobe wins at least one title as the leader of his time...come back. In all likelihood..Kobe will probably never make it back to the finals. For all you kids talking about eras and talent. There were more top 50 players of all time during Jordan's era than any other. You can run a list of top 50 who did not get Titles just because of Jordan..great teams who did not win title just because Jordan and the bulls denied them.

what the fuck has Kobe done since Shaq lefted? All he has done is score points.. He has not improved his team one bit. He does not understand how to actively make this teammates fit into the system. He does not understand how to contol the offensive tempo..get your teammates involved early and often..and then score late in quarters and dominate 4th quarters.which was a Jordan motto. Get your teammates involved and dominate the ball when necessary. Kobe so thorougly dominates the offense that other players are not allowed to get into any offensive flow. There is a myth that he needs to score 40 points a night in order for the Lakers to win..but when you look as their winning percentage..when he takes less than 23 shots..their winning percentage rises greatly... however, he still has not figured that out because he has no basketball IQ..he plays on talent alone. His mental awareness of the game has no evolved..that is the biggest problem in his game right now. He has not involved beyond the physical side of the game.

I can even understand the Magic Johnson argument (although Magic says Jordan was teh GOAT) or even the Russell Argument because of the amount of titles he won, etc..
but this Kobe bullshit. Kobe will be LUCKY if he gets voted into the top 50 of all time when he finishes his career..lucky..even regards to being the GOAT..put the fucking rocks down... Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc are a level much ABOVE players like Kobe. Not only did the all have the ability to score..the made their players better...understood the psychology of basketball and competition..and regularly elevated their games in the playoffs when it really mattered.

<slams hand on table>
You are the man!!!! Tell it to them brother. Preach preach preach.

You couldn't have described the basketball inferiority of Kobe Bryant any better.

I AGREE WITH YOU 100 PERCENT!!!

Kobe won't amount to shit in basketball history untill he wins his own championship. And Kobe winning his own championship WILL NEVER happen because he is too petty, too arrogant and too basketball stupid.

 

[cranrab]

tobe's present output can he overtake jeff grayer?

There is a myth that he needs to score 40 points a night in order for the Lakers to win..but when you look as their winning percentage..when he takes less than 23 shots..their winning percentage rises greatly... however, he still has not figured that out because he has no basketball IQ.

you're being very generous...

the fakers have paid for tobe's poor shot selection (and poor shooting) in the win/loss column... tobe has 63 regular season games in which he's chucked 30 or more FGAs. the fakers record in those games is a losing one: 29-34 (.460)

michael jordan has more than double tobe's amount of regular season games in which he's attempted 30 or more FGAs. michael jordan's teams' winning percentage is a winning one: .650+

.460 losing or .650 winning. NO CONTEST

 

[cranrab]

tobe's present output can he overtake jeff grayer?

if you factor in the playoffs performances of 30 or more FGAs, it really separates the man from the boy.

tobe has 8 playoff games with 30 or more FGAs: 4-4 .500

michael jordan has 10 playoff games with 30 or more FGAs: 8-2 .800

.500 in the post-season or .800 in the post-season? NO CONTEST.

 

[Gemini]

Man. Every time this cats scores a bunch of points..this MJ shit comes up. Jordan evalated his game during the playoffs and specifically during the finals. What did Kobe do in the playoffs last year...he tanked the game 7. He did not miss shots..he decided to passively watch the game and take 1 shot in the second half and watch his team get booted. He showed his leadership abilities then.You have to be brain dead to compare Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. Kobe is struggling to keep his team in the fucking playoffs. He is not playing for titles..be is playing just to make the playoffs ever since Shaq left. Regarding the titles he has attained. Any man with an understanding of basketball easily understood that Kobe was apart of the SUPPORTING cast on the Laker teams that won titles. If you switch his name with any other shooting guard/forward of similar playing ability those teams continue win titles just as they did. He was apart of the support:Horry, Fisher, Kobe etc. This was not some type of 2 man wrecking crew..that was Shaq's team. Those teams won and lost and Shaq's back. As Kobe began to get more clock and take more shots..the decline in winning percentage began. When Kobe wins at least one title as the leader of his time...come back. In all likelihood..Kobe will probably never make it back to the finals. For all you kids talking about eras and talent. There were more top 50 players of all time during Jordan's era than any other. You can run a list of top 50 who did not get Titles just because of Jordan..great teams who did not win title just because Jordan and the bulls denied them.

what the fuck has Kobe done since Shaq lefted? All he has done is score points.. He has not improved his team one bit. He does not understand how to actively make this teammates fit into the system. He does not understand how to contol the offensive tempo..get your teammates involved early and often..and then score late in quarters and dominate 4th quarters.which was a Jordan motto. Get your teammates involved and dominate the ball when necessary. Kobe so thorougly dominates the offense that other players are not allowed to get into any offensive flow. There is a myth that he needs to score 40 points a night in order for the Lakers to win..but when you look as their winning percentage..when he takes less than 23 shots..their winning percentage rises greatly... however, he still has not figured that out because he has no basketball IQ..he plays on talent alone. His mental awareness of the game has no evolved..that is the biggest problem in his game right now. He has not involved beyond the physical side of the game.

I can even understand the Magic Johnson argument (although Magic says Jordan was teh GOAT) or even the Russell Argument because of the amount of titles he won, etc..
but this Kobe bullshit. Kobe will be LUCKY if he gets voted into the top 50 of all time when he finishes his career..lucky..even regards to being the GOAT..put the fucking rocks down... Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc are a level much ABOVE players like Kobe. Not only did the all have the ability to score..the made their players better...understood the psychology of basketball and competition..and regularly elevated their games in the playoffs when it really mattered.

excellent point

 

[Gemini]

I'm no Kobe fan, but MJ's dribbling stunk. In their primes, I'd go with Kobe.

Mike hand better ball control. Kobe is an excellent dribbler, that does not make kobe a better player. John stockton > Tim Hardaway

 

[weezyg]

can the kobe dickriders please tell me who the lakers played to win their titles. the east in 99 2000 and 2001 was way weaker than who the bulls played. kobe got three rings with shaq what has he done since then score alot of points wow look what shaq has done without him. jordan won more scoring titles won DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR in 88 as a shooting guard. when has kobe done anything heroic besides score 81 mike could've done it but phil made him pass more in order to win 3 more rings. i think the lakers played the nets twice in the finals(no center to defend shaq) and vince wasn't there yet and the 76ers who many people said was the worst team to ever make the finals because the competition in the east was horrible so get your facts straight i'm from chicago 37th and king drive and i witnessed mike dominate. if you ask me he was the best player in the league even when he played baseball. the bulls should have won 8 or 9 titles.

 

[TimRock]

i think the lakers played the nets twice in the finals(no center to defend shaq)

so get your facts straight

They Played Indiana (Rik Smits), Philly (Mtumbo) and then NJ.

 

[weezyg]

what do it matter thats not my point. Rik Smits and Mutombo thats your most valid argument smits had foot problems ever since he came in the league mutombo is .....mutombo cant score and who was the nets center? mj is the greatest ever somebody prove me wrong please with facts not opinions

 

[xfactor]

Re: tobe's present output can he overtake jeff grayer?

Man. Every time this cats scores a bunch of points..this MJ shit comes up. Jordan evalated his game during the playoffs and specifically during the finals. What did Kobe do in the playoffs last year...he tanked the game 7. He did not miss shots..he decided to passively watch the game and take 1 shot in the second half and watch his team get booted. He showed his leadership abilities then.

E,

We all know everyone in this thread (including the 15 point that voted for Wobe) have probably NEVER seen Jordan play. Even a 40 year old Jordan playing for the Washington Wizards was a better player than Wobe. And you make an excellent point about the playoffs, which Wobe supports NEVER bring up. How are you going to be the "best player on the planet" yet he cant even score 1 point in the 2nd half of biggest game of his career?

What I dont understand about the Wobe coalition is how do people continue to downplay Shaq's abilities and leadership skills (yet he proved to be a winner before and after joining the lakers) and continue to uplift Wobe's (yet he wont even sniff the 2nd round of the playoffs for the rest of his career) Seems to me like something that goes beyond basketball

Looks like another "Dispelling a myth" thread is needed because guys in this thread are still saying -

1) BGOL Myth- Wobe is the most talented player in the league.

NBA Reality - Wobe is not even in the top 5 of the most talented perimeter players in the league.

2) BGOL Myth - Wobe is unstoppable and can score at will

NBA Reality - Coaches set schemes on defense that encourage Bryant to jack FGA after FGA from the perimeter.

if you factor in the playoffs performances of 30 or more FGAs, it really separates the man from the boy.

tobe has 8 playoff games with 30 or more FGAs: 4-4 .500

michael jordan has 10 playoff games with 30 or more FGAs: 8-2 .800

.500 in the post-season or .800 in the post-season? NO CONTEST.

Considering the fact Jordan shot 50% for his career and Wobe shot 43% FGA in his playoff career. Which brings up another point, how can Wobe be "the greatest player since Jordan" yet his playoff stats are worse than his regular season stats? I thought great players shine in the playoffs?

 

[TimRock]

what do it matter thats not my point.

So what is your point? What does, the player who defended Shaq in their 3 titles, have to do with the topic of this thread? And i believe the Nets center was Jason Collins. But again, what does that have to do with Kobe and Jordan?

mj is the greatest ever somebody prove me wrong please with facts not opinions

If someone really says that Kobe is better than Jordan at any point in their careers, then that person really shouldn't be talking basketball. I am a Kobe/Laker fan and i would never make that assumption. So i doubt anyone will prove you wrong.

 

[FJP]

For dude that says Jordan is the best and talks about facts...there arent any facts that make Mike the greatest. He doesnt have the most rings or best stats. Its simply a popular opinion. Me personally I think Wilt is the greatest. If you look at his stats he's the greatest player by a mile statistically. In terms of winning Russell is the greatest.11 rings? Come on man. Dude won most as a player then turned around and coached for rings. Mike was great I just dont think he's the greatest.

 

[LordSinister]

The topic is "can" Kobe overtake Jordan, not "has" he. If he wins a couple of rings with this sorry team, IMHO yes. If not, No.

End discussion.

 

[FJP]

xfactor I know you dont like Kobe but he's the most talented perimeter player in the league and you know it. I mean honestly its not a comparison. Other players do Certain things better but overall he's the best. The sheer fact that the only person people compare him to his Jordan speaks to that.

 

[Blue-sky]

Mike hand better ball control. Kobe is an excellent dribbler, that does not make kobe a better player. John stockton > Tim Hardaway

I am not sure what is meant by better ball control as opposed to dribbling. In my mind they are the same thing. Unless you consider palming the ball better ball control. Jordan was very good at that.

Yes, Kobe is probably a better dribbler that Jordan.

For the record I'm with Jordan in this thread.

 

[jiggylo09]

If Kobe wins 4 more Championships yes he will be greater than Michael Jordan he currently is in more categories than Jordan and the only thing that puts Jordan over the top is the 6 rings Kobe competition is much better than Jordan's was

 

[G-SPOTTA]

MJ bought "CLASS" back to the NBA. KOBE will neva have the class that MJ possessed. He's a cry baby, a cheat, and worst of all; A FUKKIN SQUEALIN' ASS SNITCH. that niggaz garbage now. So what he can score, his character is shot to hell. His name shouldn't be associated with words like great, warrior, champion, etc. He's none of them and neva will be. Once he retires, he'll be forgotten about with the quickness. The game will be better off once he's gone. Thats on the real!!!!!!!!!


B'More....what!!!!

 

[Spectrum]

If Kobe wins 4 more Championships yes he will be greater than Michael Jordan he currently is in more categories than Jordan and the only thing that puts Jordan over the top is the 6 rings Kobe competition is much better than Jordan's was

put the pipe down...

Jordan has a better career scoring average by FAR.over 6 points more
Jordan has a better career rebounding average
Jordan has rookie of the year honors (kobe no)
Jordan has 6 Finals MVP honors (kobe none)
Jordan has 5 League MVP awards (kobe none)
Jordan has DEFENSIVE player of year honors (kobe none)
Jordan has 2 Olympic Gold Medals (kobe none)
Jordan increased his scoring to almost 34 points a game during playoffs
When Jordan was is first MVP, Jordan led the league in scoring averaging 35.0 ppg on 53.5% shooting. Kobe is a career 45 percent shooter.even worse in the playoffs

This can go on an on. The idea that these two players are on the same level or that Kobe is even approaching it is a huge MIRAGE created by uneducated and ill-informed sports fan. Like I said.. Kobe will be LUCKY to be included in the top 50 of all time.. LUCKY.

I dont agree.. and even he doesnt because he even claims that Jordan is the GOAT.. but I will listen to the Magic argument... Russell etc..they are legitimate claims.. but fucking Kobe Bryant.. I have to question if yall really understand the game of basketball with such ridiculous claims... All Kobe does is score points to the detriment of the success to his team.. His greatest claim to being a great player is scoring ability..and even on that he is a 24 points per game career scorer...and every big game someone brings up this argument.. he has YET to do the shit in a big game in the playoffs.. he cant even lead his team out of the first round of the playoffs.and most likely the will play the Mavericks or Suns first round... again..Lakers booted out of the first round... and his bitch as didnt even go out fighting last year..he went out watching... The greatest player in the game (sarcasm) attempts 1 shot..has zero points and zero assists in the second half of a serious decided game 7 in the first round.. get the fuck outta here

 

[vandamation]

MJ without Pippen is still MJ.Kobe without Shaq is MitchRichmond.POINT BLANK.No Contest.MJ IS THE GREATEST.

 

[xfactor]

xfactor I know you dont like Kobe but he's the most talented perimeter player in the league and you know it. I mean honestly its not a comparison. Other players do Certain things better but overall he's the best. The sheer fact that the only person people compare him to his Jordan speaks to that.

Now people are telling me what I know now

FJP,

I made a post on the sports board last year ranking the top 5 SGs in the NBA and Wobe wasnt even in the top 5. Now including perimeter players, he's even lower down the totem pole. Why? Beacause it takes more to being a talented player than being able to score. Bryant can definitely get his shot off, has the range on his jumper, and has the ability to get hot but doesn that make him the most talented player? Does that even make him the best scorer? No, because I'd give that crown to Gilbert Arenas who Im sure Wobe fans remember torched Bryant for 60 earlier this season in the Staples Center (Oh nevermind, Wobe fans are never in touch with reality regarding their hero). Check Arenas's 50+ point games this year and they were all against ELITE squads in the West. Not the Bobcats or Timberwolves (who wont even sniff a .400 record let alone the playoffs)

And speaking of the Jordan comparions, I've also heard the same for Dwyane Wade and LeBron James (both of which are better players than Wobe)

The topic is "can" Kobe overtake Jordan, not "has" he. If he wins a couple of rings with this sorry team, IMHO yes. If not, No.

End discussion.

LS,

You're one of the funniest cats on the board but this statement makes no sense because 1) He's not going to win a Western Conference title let alone an NBA title playing with the current team because he doesnt have the ability to carry a team. 2) Robert Horry has helped lead teams to way more championships than Charles Barkley. Does that mean Horry is the superior player? It's a lot that can be attributed to being a great player (like making teammates better) but winning a couple of titles isnt the only thing that will seperate the two. Maybe if Bryant had the ROY, DPY, MVP (5 times or more), Finals MVP (6 times or more), Olympic gold medal, countless records for playoff performances.

MJ without Pippen is still MJ.Kobe without Shaq is MitchRichmond.POINT BLANK.No Contest.MJ IS THE GREATEST.

I would say that is a fair comparison...You could also throw in Jerry Stackhouse into the conversation as well.

 

[dacrazydeafdawg]

shyt let me tell you one thing. there isnt no I in team.

MJ didnt win championship right away.. but until he utilized the we in team and cause all kind of problems...shyt pippen...rodman..grant...craig and others... the point is MJ's teammate knew if 3 mofo cover MJ 3 of them will be open for shots and assists...

personally Kobe fuck up a chance to duplicate MJ's success with the bulls when he dog shaq... that like magic dissing kareem...

mj is and will be the greatest that ever play the game because he took it to the next level...

hell mofo hating on jordan cuz of his camp and ties with the high school elite and college elite... i dunno bout yall but charlotte got a good chance of being a nba dynasty..

 

[bungesh]

Thats like comparing Tyson to Ali, they are both the greatest in their own right and in their own times, but Ali will always remain the greatest ever in everyones eyes and a true legend as Jordan will over Kobe. Thats just the way it goes.

 

[cranrab]

tobe's present output can he overtake jeff grayer?

Kobe without Shaq is MitchRichmond.

why the diss on mitch richmond? comparing mitch richmond to tobe is the most cruel, undeserved and degrading insult i've seen towards another human being on BGOL in all my years here.

now maybe if you had said vernell coles...

 

[Nobody]

Re: tobe's present output can he overtake jeff grayer?

I'm pretty sure Kobe wouldn't mind handchecking if it meant there were no zone defenses and he could play one on one most of the game.


One of the biggest reasons why Kobe will NEVER overtake MJ in the eyes of fans - MARKETING.

 

[LordSinister]

Like I said cuzz. If he does it, he will pass MJ. Anyway MJ can't fuck with this man here:

So he's number 3 at best. (Behind Wilt too)

 

[Serious Sam]

Re: tobe's present output: can he overtake jeff grayer?

Damn, Ko6e?!? Fa da Current 27 people who 6elieve dat Ko6e has/ever had a Chance of 6esting Mike, ya'll niccaz speedin... It would've 6en a 6etta argument ta say Le6ron, 6ut then again im still sayin MJ overall Cuz...

 

[D Town Redd]

That's like asking if 50Cent puts out enough CDs he'd overtake James Brown.

Hell MUTHA FUCKING no

 

[cnc]

Kobe competition is much better than Jordan's was

 

[xfactor]

Re: tobe's present output can he overtake jeff grayer?

One of the biggest reasons why Kobe will NEVER overtake MJ in the eyes of fans - MARKETING.

How about because he doesnt have Jordan's level of talent?

I think you Wobe fans should worry about him trying to overtake Jerry West, before even thinking about him overtaking Michael Jordan

 

[LordSinister]

Kobe has more rings than West, and West played with Baylor and Wilt. This takes me back to the Jordan Killer.

I hate Boston with a passion, but he's the Greatest of all time. You Jordan Stans can learn a lot from me.

 

[Ming Fei Hong]

Kobe has more rings than West, and West played with Baylor and Wilt. This takes me back to the Jordan Killer.

I hate Boston with a passion, but he's the Greatest of all time. You Jordan Stans can learn a lot from me.

 

[VAHustler]

HELL TO THE NO. 27 people put yes for Hobe. Only stats Hobe overtaking is the stats Jordan had from ballhogging and that's about it. Untill Hobe gets his d straight this might can turn into a mediocre or less than likely serious topic.

 

[LordSinister]

You came out of lurkhood to hate????

Real Ghei Kate Faber, Real Ghei.

 

[cranrab]

tobe's present output can he overtake jeff grayer?

Like I said cuzz. If he does it, he will pass MJ. Anyway MJ can't fuck with this man here:

i'm with you 100% on this.

bill russell over michael jordan. YES.

but i'd still put michael jordan over wilt chamberlain.