Sottie Pippen's take on the current Chicago Bulls players

[lazarus]

Sometimes the *Truth Hurts*.
Some people can take it. Some can't.

Shiiiit, I've heard Bobby Knight GO HARDER on college kids!!

NOW HOW HARD YOU THINK AN NBA COACH SHOULD BE...
WHEN *MILLIONS* OF DOLLARS ARE AT STAKE?!?

Niggas just need to MAN-THE-FUCK-UP. Feel me?
Like I said before... Niggas get drafted... get a big payday...then think their *shit don't stink*.


Bobby Knight got fired, dude. New age. I didnt say they didnt need to man up, but if you want to keep a job, you can't be like that. Plus, like you said, its a million dollar business, a dude makes 5 mil a year, you try to yell at him, he's going to look at you like you're crazy. its the way it is. Scottie proved he cant even get his foot in the door with making harsh remarks and then expet to coach the team? More than yelling, you need intelligence, and that was obviously lacking.

 

[dh86]

according to your own statement, players can (or rather your opinion of them) can vacillate between being a franchise player and not being "franchise guys".

dumb ho cake. your understanding and estimation of athletes (and basketball specifically) is pathetic.

what has jermaine o'neal done with the pacers since he became the "franchise guy"? won fewer regular season games EACH consecutive season, advanced to the 2nd round ONCE.

what has tracy mcgrady done with the rockets since he became the "franchise guy"? never got out of the 1st round.

what has tobe done with the fakers since he became the "franchise guy"? never got out of the 1st round.

your fanboy allegiance to all things tobe is bad enough, but you also identified yourself as a prep-to-pros idiot supporter too.

david stern got 1 thing right: he marketed players and personalities over the sport itself to simps like you and you sheep fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

He is a simp, but you are the one saying Kobe Bryant does not understand how to play the game of basketball?? Who the fuck does then? Shane Battier? Losing to the Phoenix Suns the last two years wipes out the scoring titles and championships? It stripped away his basketball IQ? Jermaine lost more games every year and got to the second round once since becoming a franchise player? Did I dream the 61 wins and conference final appearance? Of course I did. You win.

 

[c_commander]

Scottie's lone season without MJ in his prime, he lead the Bulls to 55 wins and a loss in 7 games to the eventual East champ. You bring up the Kukoc shot, but what great player (not named Kevin Garnett) does not want the ball in their hand in that situation? They did not become great players in the first place if it wasnt for that kinda confidence in themselves.

True. But how many guys quit on their team and sit on the bench rather than play if for no other reason but for the sake of their teammates. He had a great year and believe me I remember that series. I lost money on that series. I wonder what he would have done if Kukoc had tied the game on that shot rather than won it.

BTW both Louis Williams and Monta Ellis were 2nd round picks. And it turned out that Garnett did get a qualifying score but found out too late.College works out for some guys. Take Brandon Roy,for example, he entered the NBA Draft following his senior year of high school wasn't drafted went to school for 4 yrs and became a lottery pick. It really depends on the individual as to whether college is going to a player's game. As stated earlier for guys like Lebron and Kobe college was nothing more than an injury risk or it kills a player's buzz going into the draft. The year that UNC won the title they lost a freshman prospect in J.R. Smith who chose to go pro instead and Dwight Howard has stated that had he gone to college he would've gone to UNC. While it would've hurt Howard what would 1 year have done to Smith's draft prospects.

 

[dh86]

AMEN.

here are the prep players that entered the league since 2000:

Al Jefferson
Amare Stoudemire
Amir Johnson
Andray Blatche
Andrew Bynum
Cj Miles
Darius Miles
David Andersen
Deshawn Stevenson
Dorell Wright
Dwight Howard
Eddy Curry
Gerald Green
James Lang
Jonathan Bender
Josh Smith
Jr Smith
Kendrick Perkins
Kwame Brown
Lebron James
Leon Smith
Louis Williams
Martell Webster
Monta Ellis
Robert Swift
Sebastian Telfair
Shaun Livingston
Travis Outlaw
Tyson Chandler

Posting a list like that means absolutely shit if its posted without perspective. I could easily post the long ass list of guys that spent all 4 years in college that went to the pros and do the same. There are your flops (Mateen Cleaves,Jeryl Sasser,Troy Bell,Rafael Arajuo) theres the decent at best players (Shane Battier,Kirk Hinrich.Nick Collison, Morris Peterson) and theres your stars (Josh Howard,Tayshaun Prince,Brandon Roy). Its the same shit when you are dealing with the players out of high school and spent 1 year in school.

 

[qweedread]

it's easy as hell to sit back and criticize people; Pippen was a great player but when did he become a consultant? The Bulls thought because they beat Miami they were better than they actually are. Miami is done, the Bulls beat them on speed alone, there is nothing wrong with the Bulls, they were just overrated last year.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

Everyone wants to make the Kobe-KG-TMac deal about high schoolers. To that, I give you Gerald Green, Korleone Young, and Sebastian Telfair. Green's playing D-League, Young's back at home, and Telfair is on the verge of being kicked out. All were hyped in HS, all have done nothing to justify earning a paycheck. .

You can't put Telfair in that list. He's doing well in Minnesota. In fact, Wolves are big on Bassy to the point where they want to re-sign him.

As I said in another post, Bassy is just an above average guard that was expected to be the next big PG out of Brooklyn. That's just not him.

 

[cranrab]

He is a simp, but you are the one saying Kobe Bryant does not understand how to play the game of basketball?

yawn.

did the fakers' winning percentage go DOWN as tobe's starts INCREASED? yes. not surprising you don't know this.

was the fakers' winning percentage BETTER when tobe was out of the lineup as opposed to when he was in it? yes. not surprising you don't know this.

another myth swallowing sheep exposes himself. enjoy each other.

Losing to the Phoenix Suns the last two years wipes out the scoring titles and championships?

"wipes out"? of course not.

puts his actual role and contribution into perspective? yes.

simply stated, tobe is a brainless euro chucker. a sometimes prolific scorer based on VOLUME SHOOTING.

and odd that you fixated only on the losses to the phoenix suns.

don't forget to mention this next time:

ROOKIE dwyane wade + caron butler + lamar odom + brian grant = 2nd round of playoffs 6 games against the indiana pacers (who had the best record in the league)

"greatest player in the game" tobe + caron butler + lamar odom + brian grant = LAST place in the PUSSific division and NO playoffs.

It stripped away his basketball IQ?

those events didn't strip away anything. merely reinforced that he hasn't had any measurable basketball IQ to begin with.

look no further than tobe's play in the 2004 NBA finals for additional proof.

Jermaine lost more games every year and got to the second round once since becoming a franchise player? Did I dream the 61 wins and conference final appearance? Of course I did. You win.

apparently you don't understand what "becoming a franchise player" means. i guess i can't expect you to know when tobe "became a franchise player" either.

 

[cranrab]

Posting a list like that means absolutely shit if its posted without perspective.

actually, on BGOL it's an absolute necessity, because otherwise some posters will purposely omit information because they know their arguments are WEAK or worse still, FALSE.

I could easily post the long ass list of guys that spent all 4 years in college that went to the pros and do the same. There are your flops (Mateen Cleaves,Jeryl Sasser,Troy Bell,Rafael Arajuo) theres the decent at best players (Shane Battier,Kirk Hinrich.Nick Collison, Morris Peterson) and theres your stars (Josh Howard,Tayshaun Prince,Brandon Roy). Its the same shit when you are dealing with the players out of high school and spent 1 year in school.

thank you for providing a sterling example of why BGOL can be so amusing. many posters can NOT stay on point (even when it is their own), and get shit twisted on irrelevant tangents.

for example, in providing a list of supposed "flops" (Mateen Cleaves, Jeryl Sasser, Troy Bell, Rafael Arajuo) you DO understand that even if we agreed that they were/are all "flops" it does NOT mean that college did NOT improve/better their game from what it was.

 

[Complex]

thank you for providing a sterling example of why BGOL can be so amusing. many posters can NOT stay on point (even when it is their own), and get shit twisted on irrelevant tangents.

for example, in providing a list of supposed "flops" (Mateen Cleaves, Jeryl Sasser, Troy Bell, Rafael Arajuo) you DO understand that even if we agreed that they were/are all "flops" it does NOT mean that college did NOT improve/better their game from what it was.

Improve their game for what? Playing in the CBA, NBDL and overseas

And you need to follow your own advice Samaki

 

[cranrab]

Improve their game for what?

[sighs]

OF COURSE you need to ask.

so "Mateen Cleaves, Jeryl Sasser, Troy Bell, Rafael Arajuo" all would have been as good (or better?) had they NOT attended college and attempted to enter the NBA directly from high school?

right on.

 

[xfactor]

Tell me, who? Some players out of high school. That means more than one. Give me three who been in the league for a decade.

Let's see...

McGrady (Rockets)
Wobe (lakers)
O'Neal (Indiana)

All 3 been in the league since '97 and neither of those 3 players understand how to play a total team game. McGrady is the smartest of the trio but he minimizes his impact on the game with inconsistent effort.

You can call it "successful" for guys to have stuck around that long but you cannot say that means they understand how to play, which is something you obviously don't understand yourself.

Those 3 players need to watch Kevin Garnett and LeBron James. The only prep to pro players worth the hype and the only prep to pro players with significant experience that know how to enjoy real, team success (wins).

 

[xfactor]

You keep saying I have a fanboy allegiance to kobe, but you have a blind, irrational hatred of the player. And I don't mind prep to pro players. On average prep to pro players succeed at a GREATER rate than those who went to college.

Just when you think they can't get dumber. Prep players succeed at a greater rate than college players? Just STOP posting now.

the Lakers had too much youth (which is slowly coming along now).

The Portland Trail Blazers were able to run off 13 wins in a row and 16 out of 17 and are the youngest team in the league, without a "top 5 franchise prep school player" Guess that kills your theory

Lebron
Kobe
KG
Dwight
TMac
JO
Josh Smith
Stephen Jackson
Al Harrington
Tyson Chandler.
Amare Stoudemire

Then he proceeds to list 10 players that have accomplished little other than LeBron James and Kevin Garnett. (Unless you want to count being a product of media hype and riding real talent to championships )

10 players also seems a little light being that prep players succeed at a greater rate than college players.

You're acting like one year of college will make a player. Conversely the worst it could do to players who would have been a high lottery pick if they left after hs is that they drop a little to the mid lottery. Big whoop.

The dumb MF just don't get it.

Overall, the age limit hasn't done much. Because those who would have left after HS, will leave after one year. All it does really is delay and in some cases, shorten the amount of max contracts a player will sign.

No, it makes the college game and the pro game better.

@ how inept "Nobody" is when it comes to basketball

 

[xfactor]

perhaps there is a huge generational divide which results in the younger generation being INCAPABLE of honestly and accurately assessing talent and worth. after all, with no reliable understanding of the past, their perception of the present is inescapably flawed.

Don't let morons like Nobody make it out bad for young guys who actually studied and respect the game's history and don't buy into most of the media myth selling going on today.

Most of the ignorant commenting posters probably have never set foot on a basketball court other than bringing out water bottles and setting chairs during timeouts, thinking that qualifies them as basketball masterminds.

 

[dh86]

yawn.

did the fakers' winning percentage go DOWN as tobe's starts INCREASED? yes. not surprising you don't know this.

was the fakers' winning percentage BETTER when tobe was out of the lineup as opposed to when he was in it? yes. not surprising you don't know this.

another myth swallowing sheep exposes himself. enjoy each other.



"wipes out"? of course not.

puts his actual role and contribution into perspective? yes.

simply stated, tobe is a brainless euro chucker. a sometimes prolific scorer based on VOLUME SHOOTING.

and odd that you fixated only on the losses to the phoenix suns.

don't forget to mention this next time:

ROOKIE dwyane wade + caron butler + lamar odom + brian grant = 2nd round of playoffs 6 games against the indiana pacers (who had the best record in the league)

"greatest player in the game" tobe + caron butler + lamar odom + brian grant = LAST place in the PUSSific division and NO playoffs.



those events didn't strip away anything. merely reinforced that he hasn't had any measurable basketball IQ to begin with.

look no further than tobe's play in the 2004 NBA finals for additional proof.



apparently you don't understand what "becoming a franchise player" means. i guess i can't expect you to know when tobe "became a franchise player" either.

I will mention this...
LA Lakers-21-11
Miami Heat 8-26 (7-19 with Wade)

Shaquille O'Neal with Kobe, 3 championships, 4 NBA Finals, 50 win seasons every year
Shaquille O'Neal with Dwyane Wade, 1 championship, 2 conference finals, 1st round sweep, worst record in the Eastern Conference

Through Kobe's first five seasons, his stats increased each of those seasons. The Lakers won championships his fourth and fifth season. Now, how could that possibly happen, if the Lakers win less as Kobe stats increased? As for the ridiculous assertion that the Lakers win percentage is better without Kobe? Kobe has played 87% of the Lakers games the past 12 seasons, now how could you possible have an enough sample size from a few games a season to tell whether his presence hurt the team? Obviously looking at the championship banners, you cant tell that he hurt the team on the court. Please, name the players in the NBA that has a more complete game than Kobe Bryant. I am talking scoring,passing,rebounding,defense,intangibles relative to their position.

 

[dh86]

Let's see...

McGrady (Rockets)
Wobe (lakers)
O'Neal (Indiana)

All 3 been in the league since '97 and neither of those 3 players understand how to play a total team game. McGrady is the smartest of the trio but he minimizes his impact on the game with inconsistent effort.

You can call it "successful" for guys to have stuck around that long but you cannot say that means they understand how to play, which is something you obviously don't understand yourself.

Those 3 players need to watch Kevin Garnett and LeBron James. The only prep to pro players worth the hype and the only prep to pro players with significant experience that know how to enjoy real, team success (wins).

Kevin Garnett has achieved more team success than Jermaine O'Neal? (scratches head)

 

[dh86]

actually, on BGOL it's an absolute necessity, because otherwise some posters will purposely omit information because they know their arguments are WEAK or worse still, FALSE.



thank you for providing a sterling example of why BGOL can be so amusing. many posters can NOT stay on point (even when it is their own), and get shit twisted on irrelevant tangents.

for example, in providing a list of supposed "flops" (Mateen Cleaves, Jeryl Sasser, Troy Bell, Rafael Arajuo) you DO understand that even if we agreed that they were/are all "flops" it does NOT mean that college did NOT improve/better their game from what it was.

You missed my entire point completely. Give yourself a pat on the back. My point is that college basketball will improve a player to a certain level then you will hit a wall. A player can only get better to a certain level playing against college defenses, college coaching and a college environment. There are SOME players, that are to the level where they are already at that peak right out of high school where college would really not add much to their games. Those players are many of the superstars of the NBA today. Theres other high schoolers that watch those guys make hundreds of millions of dollars and have the voices in their ear telling them to follow the path of these superstars when they are not at that same level. Hence why this discussion is even happening.

 

[cranrab]

Through Kobe's first five seasons, his stats increased each of those seasons.

wow. what a revelation.

uh, considering that both his MP and his # of starts increased, wouldn't you EXPECT an increase in stats?

this is some remedial shit right here.

The Lakers won championships his fourth and fifth season.

yes. due primarily to the presence of shaquille o'neal, and secondarily (and finally) due to the system of coach jackson.

how could that possibly happen, if the Lakers win less as Kobe stats increased?

uh, did you read correctly?

i wrote that the fakers winning percentage DECREASED as tobe's starts INCREASED.

to make sense of both my point and yours simultaneously, what that means IN THE REAL WORLD is that as tobe's chucking increased (once free of coach harris' reins), the fakers AS A TEAM were negatively impacted. hence, the increased LOSING began as a result of his negative presence.

As for the ridiculous assertion that the Lakers win percentage is better without Kobe?

ridiculous because it happens to be 100% FACT? and completely destroys a myth you happen to subscribe to? the FACTS speak for themselves. the fakers WERE ALWAYS a better team without tobe on the floor. PERIOD.

Kobe has played 87% of the Lakers games the past 12 seasons, now how could you possible have an enough sample size from a few games a season to tell whether his presence hurt the team?

first, you questioning "sample size" does not change the EVENTS which transpired.

second, there is more than just a "few games a season". since you took the time to compute the numbers in percentage, it's probably a safe bet that you saw i was correct, and are plainly AFRAID to post the actual win/loss.

third, other "franchise" players don't have this phenomenon of INVERSE CORRELATION. in fact, take a look at how the fakers performed when shaquille o'neal was not on the floor and it's plenty obvious who did ALL the heavy lifting.

finally, if you need more proof, watch the 2004 nba finals.

Obviously looking at the championship banners, you cant tell that he hurt the team on the court.

which is simply more evidence of shaquille o'neal's INCREDIBLE contribution to the fakers franchise success. shaquille o'neal carried the fakers to championships in spite of having to play 4 on 6 while tobe was on the floor.

name the players in the NBA that has a more complete game than Kobe Bryant. I am talking scoring,passing,rebounding,defense,intangibles relative to their position.

current or former?

and do you want all of them or only the top 100?

 

[PimpJuice]

It's time for a change. I hope he represents. Shit, he got mad titles with the Bulls.

 

[cranrab]

My point is that college basketball will improve a player to a certain level then you will hit a wall.

OK. agreed thus far. in your words, you have stated that participation in college basketball will yield some measurable positive results for players.

There are SOME players, that are to the level where they are already at that peak right out of high school where college would really not add much to their games.

so if i understand this statement, you are suggesting that there is a point of diminishing returns for athletes who participate in college sports.

and you are further suggesting that there are some prep players for whom the diminishing returns would be so miniscule that you would recommend they not participate in college athletics whatsoever.

if i understand your position correctly, i disagree.

 

[dh86]

wow. what a revelation.

uh, considering that both his MP and his # of starts increased, wouldn't you EXPECT an increase in stats?

this is some remedial shit right here.



yes. due primarily to the presence of shaquille o'neal, and secondarily (and finally) due to the system of coach jackson.



uh, did you read correctly?

i wrote that the fakers winning percentage DECREASED as tobe's starts INCREASED.

to make sense of both my point and yours simultaneously, what that means IN THE REAL WORLD is that as tobe's chucking increased (once free of coach harris' reins), the fakers AS A TEAM were negatively impacted. hence, the increased LOSING began as a result of his negative presence.



ridiculous because it happens to be 100% FACT? and completely destroys a myth you happen to subscribe to? the FACTS speak for themselves. the fakers WERE ALWAYS a better team without tobe on the floor. PERIOD.



first, you questioning "sample size" does not change the EVENTS which transpired.

second, there is more than just a "few games a season". since you took the time to compute the numbers in percentage, it's probably a safe bet that you saw i was correct, and are plainly AFRAID to post the actual win/loss.

third, other "franchise" players don't have this phenomenon of INVERSE CORRELATION. in fact, take a look at how the fakers performed when shaquille o'neal was not on the floor and it's plenty obvious who did ALL the heavy lifting.

finally, if you need more proof, watch the 2004 nba finals.



which is simply more evidence of shaquille o'neal's INCREDIBLE contribution to the fakers franchise success. shaquille o'neal carried the fakers to championships in spite of having to play 4 on 6 while tobe was on the floor.



current or former?

and do you want all of them or only the top 100?

Your main fallacy in the entire post is, judging how a player is by how their team plays with him NOT on the court rather than how they are playing with him ON the court. The 2000 and 2001 championships would have never happened had you been correct about the Lakers winning dropping as Kobe's stats rose as they are years 4 and 5 of his 5 year upswing. The Lakers became a championship team in the first place due to Kobe's growth as a player. Shaq sure as hell didnt get any better from 1996 to 2000. Yes, I do remember the 2004 NBA Finals vividly. I, as a huge Pistons fan, remember who won the only game the Lakers won for LA. I also remember Larry Brown implementing a halo defense all series on that said player "which doesnt know how to play basketball". Which basically dared other Lakers to beat the Pistons. Enough of me talking, name the top 100 current players that are more complete basketball players than Kobe Bryant. Seeing you mention the likes of hilariously inferior players will make my day.

 

[dh86]

OK. agreed thus far. in your words, you have stated that participation in college basketball will yield some measurable positive results for players.



so if i understand this statement, you are suggesting that there is a point of diminishing returns for athletes who participate in college sports.

and you are further suggesting that there are some prep players for whom the diminishing returns would be so miniscule that you would recommend they not participate in college athletics whatsoever.

if i understand your position correctly, i disagree.

You better believe there is a point of diminishing returns for certain athletes. There is a point where the risk of injury greatly outweigh the rewards. And the only reward the player would possibly reap would be non basketball rewards. Wayne Gretzky walked into the NHL at age 18 and won the 1979 MVP. Would he have gotten any better than he ended up being had he played college hockey from 18-22 against guys far below his talent level? Hell no. Lebron James, as a would be college freshman, averaged 21,5,5. As a would be college junior, he averaged 31,7,6 and finished second in MVP balloting. As a would be college senior, he averaged 27,6,6 and lead his team to the NBA Finals. Thad Matta is a good college coach. Big Ten is a solid basketball conference. What in the blue fuck would Lebron have gained from attending OSU (or any other college)? What if he was a rookie today in the NBA? Would he be further along in his development as a basketball player as a 23 year old NBA rookie instead of a 23 year old 5th year veteran? Hell no again.Does Thad Matta have secret coaching secrets that Paul Silas and Mike Brown does not have?

 

[cranrab]

Your main fallacy in the entire post is, judging how a player is by how their team plays with him NOT on the court rather than how they are playing with him ON the court.

actually, i've covered BOTH, both here on BGOL and the SPORTS board. numerous posters can verify this AND the validity of the proof i have posted FOR YEARS.

and since you didn't bother to check (or are flatly lying), the fakers winning percentage WITH tobe on the floor is LOWER than their winning percentage WITHOUT tobe on the floor ESPECIALLY during the shaquille o'neal era.

sad how people will foolishly absorb MYTH instead of TRUTH BOURNE OUT BY FACT.

The 2001 and 2002 championships would have never happened had you been correct about the Lakers winning dropping as Kobe's stats rose as they are years 4 and 5 of his 5 year upswing.

again, you must R-E-A-D.

i wrote starts, not stats.



your (and a multitude of others) fallacy is that of attribution.

are you rational enough to observe that you just wrote an OPINION COMPLETELY DEVOID OF ANY FACT to substantiate the position?

The Lakers became a championship team in the first place due to Kobe's growth as a player.

wow.

it couldn't possibly have been because an HOF head coach (jackson) came in and implemented a system (the triple POST) on a team that had the most dominant POST player in the game (shaquille o'neal), right?

you drank ALL the kool-aid. all other variables were coincidental and inconsequential.

I, as a huge Pistons fan, remember who won the only game the Lakers won for LA. I, as a huge Pistons fan, remember who won the only game the Lakers won for LA. I also remember Larry Brown implementing a halo defense all series on that said player "which doesnt know how to play basketball".

maybe it's the same player who single-handedly shot the fakers out of that series.

BTW, thanks for proving my point for me.

IF coach brown implemented "a halo defense all series on [tobe] 'which doesn't know how to play basketball'", THEN why did tobe continue to FORCE so many ill-advised shots in the series? maybe tobe REALLY DOESN'T know how to play basketall after all.

IF you TRUTHFULLY "remember the 2004 NBA Finals vividly" THEN why don't you know that tobe chucked 113 FGAs in 5 games while shooting a DISGUSTING 38%?

IF you TRUTHFULLY "remember the 2004 NBA Finals vividly" THEN why don't you know that tobe should have been sticking with the game plan to run the O through shaquille o'neal, who was shooting 56% and having his way with the pistons?

taking 20% more FGAs than the BEST player in the league while shooting 38% in the nba finals really shows how (not) bright tobe really is.

 

[dh86]

actually, i've covered BOTH, both here on BGOL and the SPORTS board. numerous posters can verify this AND the validity of the proof i have posted FOR YEARS.

and since you didn't bother to check (or are flatly lying), the fakers winning percentage WITH tobe on the floor is LOWER than their winning percentage WITHOUT tobe on the floor ESPECIALLY during the shaquille o'neal era.

sad how people will foolishly absorb MYTH instead of TRUTH BOURNE OUT BY FACT.



again, you must R-E-A-D.

i wrote starts, not stats.



your (and a multitude of others) fallacy is that of attribution.

are you rational enough to observe that you just wrote an OPINION COMPLETELY DEVOID OF ANY FACT to substantiate the position?



wow.

it couldn't possibly have been because an HOF head coach (jackson) came in and implemented a system (the triple POST) on a team that had the most dominant POST player in the game (shaquille o'neal), right?

you drank ALL the kool-aid. all other variables were coincidental and inconsequential.



maybe it's the same player who single-handedly shot the fakers out of that series.

BTW, thanks for proving my point for me.

IF coach brown implemented "a halo defense all series on [tobe] 'which doesn't know how to play basketball'", THEN why did tobe continue to FORCE so many ill-advised shots in the series? maybe tobe REALLY DOESN'T know how to play basketall after all.

IF you TRUTHFULLY "remember the 2004 NBA Finals vividly" THEN why don't you know that tobe chucked 113 FGAs in 5 games while shooting a DISGUSTING 38%?

IF you TRUTHFULLY "remember the 2004 NBA Finals vividly" THEN why don't you know that tobe should have been sticking with the game plan to run the O through shaquille o'neal, who was shooting 56% and having his way with the pistons?

taking 20% more FGAs than the BEST player in the league while shooting 38% in the nba finals really shows how (not) bright tobe really is.

Another post made without naming those "many" current players that are more complete than Kobe. Ive been waiting nearly a week for the answer. What are you waiting on?

 

[cranrab]

Larry Brown implementing a halo defense all series on that said player "which doesnt know how to play basketball". Which basically dared other Lakers to beat the Pistons.

i had to revisit this thread again because of these 2 comical statements you'd written.

first, the D implemented (in my day) was called the "venus flytrap". it entices and invites STUPID players to break discipline and abandon the game plan by offering up low percentage FGAs over high percentage FGAs. it was a singularly BRILLIANT coaching move, because there was NO OTHER WAY to stop shaquille o'neal. it's pretty obvious that the pistons succeeded in getting the biggest dullard to fall for it.

second, the idea that the pistons D was set up to dare "other [f]akers to beat the pistons" is laughable.

shaquille o'neal was dominating the pistons front line.

do you realize that tobe MISSED almost as many FGAs as the other 3 starters took COMBINED? tobe MISSED 70 FGAs while the other 3 starters only ATTEMPTED 80 FGAs COMBINED.

BTW, here's how the series FG% broke down:

gary payton shot 32%
karl malone shot 33%
tobe shot 38%
devean george shot 39%
shaquille o'neal shot 56%

maybe the euro chucker who was hurling all those bricks should've been a lot smarter and passed the ball more often.

 

[dh86]

actually, i've covered BOTH, both here on BGOL and the SPORTS board. numerous posters can verify this AND the validity of the proof i have posted FOR YEARS.

and since you didn't bother to check (or are flatly lying), the fakers winning percentage WITH tobe on the floor is LOWER than their winning percentage WITHOUT tobe on the floor ESPECIALLY during the shaquille o'neal era.

sad how people will foolishly absorb MYTH instead of TRUTH BOURNE OUT BY FACT.



again, you must R-E-A-D.

i wrote starts, not stats.



your (and a multitude of others) fallacy is that of attribution.

are you rational enough to observe that you just wrote an OPINION COMPLETELY DEVOID OF ANY FACT to substantiate the position?



wow.

it couldn't possibly have been because an HOF head coach (jackson) came in and implemented a system (the triple POST) on a team that had the most dominant POST player in the game (shaquille o'neal), right?

you drank ALL the kool-aid. all other variables were coincidental and inconsequential.



maybe it's the same player who single-handedly shot the fakers out of that series.

BTW, thanks for proving my point for me.

IF coach brown implemented "a halo defense all series on [tobe] 'which doesn't know how to play basketball'", THEN why did tobe continue to FORCE so many ill-advised shots in the series? maybe tobe REALLY DOESN'T know how to play basketall after all.

IF you TRUTHFULLY "remember the 2004 NBA Finals vividly" THEN why don't you know that tobe chucked 113 FGAs in 5 games while shooting a DISGUSTING 38%?

IF you TRUTHFULLY "remember the 2004 NBA Finals vividly" THEN why don't you know that tobe should have been sticking with the game plan to run the O through shaquille o'neal, who was shooting 56% and having his way with the pistons?

taking 20% more FGAs than the BEST player in the league while shooting 38% in the nba finals really shows how (not) bright tobe really is.

In the case of Lakers winning more regular season games without Kobe, again, you arent posting those numbers in the proper context. To post them in the proper context would be to include the playoff games as well. It would be rather stupid to judge someone as a player solely based on the regular season along with one playoff series. Especially when Kobe has had so many dominant performances in the playoffs over the past 12 years. During the Lakers heyday, there were series where Shaq were the dominating force. There were series where Kobe as the dominating force. Playoff basketball hold far more weight in my eyes than the regular season. You can count the number of players in one hand that has played to the level in the playoffs as Kobe Bryant has. As for the 2004 finals, the Detroit Pistons were the better team than the Los Angeles Lakers. Period. Phil Jackson got absolutely outcoached by Larry Brown. The Pistons had mismatches all over the court. The Pistons had the best defense we seen in decades. Blaming Kobe solely for that loss is absolutely a shitty proposition as if he did not had those clutch shots in game 2, it would have been an easy Pistons sweep. Surely, you know that. Right? When the Pistons win 2 games of that series running away in a blowout and another game by 12....you cant put that just on Kobe.

 

[TimRock]

I dont like to get involved with these Kobe related threads (although i could have sworn this thread was about Scottie and the Bulls), my question is this: intended for no one in particular: If it was Kobes fault the Lakers lost to the Pistons, whose fault was it when Shaq got swept those 6 times (twice in the first round).

 

[dh86]

i had to revisit this thread again because of these 2 comical statements you'd written.

first, the D implemented (in my day) was called the "venus flytrap". it entices and invites STUPID players to break discipline and abandon the game plan by offering up low percentage FGAs over high percentage FGAs. it was a singularly BRILLIANT coaching move, because there was NO OTHER WAY to stop shaquille o'neal. it's pretty obvious that the pistons succeeded in getting the biggest dullard to fall for it.

second, the idea that the pistons D was set up to dare "other [f]akers to beat the pistons" is laughable.

shaquille o'neal was dominating the pistons front line.

do you realize that tobe MISSED almost as many FGAs as the other 3 starters took COMBINED? tobe MISSED 70 FGAs while the other 3 starters only ATTEMPTED 80 FGAs COMBINED.

BTW, here's how the series FG% broke down:

gary payton shot 32%
karl malone shot 33%
tobe shot 38%
devean george shot 39%
shaquille o'neal shot 56%

maybe the euro chucker who was hurling all those bricks should've been a lot smarter and passed the ball more often.

Another Larry Brown philosophy that you bring up. Shaq at 32 years old and 340 lbs, could not carry a team by himself.Shaq took the number of shots consistent with the number he was taking all season long. Forcing the ball to him more wouldnt have lead the outcome of games to be any different than what it was. Shaq is a 59% shooter from the field TODAY. Do you think forcing him the ball would make the Miami Heat not the worst team in the NBA? Can he even play 5 straight minutes of good basketball anymore? Kobe had to take those shots over the Pistons defense for the Lakers to have a chance at winning. Who else did you want him to pass to? Payton,Fisher,Rush,George,Slava all had wide open shots all series and bricked. Pistons played Shaq one on one every game rotating Ben,Sheed and Elden. Kobe had Prince with Rip,Billups and the pitbulls off the bench all slagging off their man to get in Kobe's passing lanes.

 

[dh86]

I dont like to get involved with these Kobe related threads (although i could have sworn this thread was about Scottie and the Bulls), my question is this: intended for no one in particular: If it was Kobes fault the Lakers lost to the Pistons, whose fault was it when Shaq got swept those 6 times (twice in the first round).

I really dont like Kobe actually, but he brought up Kobe,McGrady and Jermaine not knowing how to play basketball still after a decade in the game. Since it turned into a young players discussion as Pippen criticized Tyrus Thomas for not being ready yet. I just know that I never saw a Shaq team with Kobe get swept out of round 1 as Shaq's teammates that went to Marquette University did. A Shaq team with Kobe never had an 8-27 record either (shrugs)

 

[dh86]

i had to revisit this thread again because of these 2 comical statements you'd written.

first, the D implemented (in my day) was called the "venus flytrap". it entices and invites STUPID players to break discipline and abandon the game plan by offering up low percentage FGAs over high percentage FGAs. it was a singularly BRILLIANT coaching move, because there was NO OTHER WAY to stop shaquille o'neal. it's pretty obvious that the pistons succeeded in getting the biggest dullard to fall for it.

second, the idea that the pistons D was set up to dare "other [f]akers to beat the pistons" is laughable.

shaquille o'neal was dominating the pistons front line.

do you realize that tobe MISSED almost as many FGAs as the other 3 starters took COMBINED? tobe MISSED 70 FGAs while the other 3 starters only ATTEMPTED 80 FGAs COMBINED.

BTW, here's how the series FG% broke down:

gary payton shot 32%
karl malone shot 33%
tobe shot 38%
devean george shot 39%
shaquille o'neal shot 56%

maybe the euro chucker who was hurling all those bricks should've been a lot smarter and passed the ball more often.

Name all of the players more complete than Kobe,and we can count the players that spent 4 years of college,3 years, etc. I can count 1 who spent all 4 years. How about you?

 

[cranrab]

Especially when Kobe has had so many dominant performances in the playoffs over the past 12 years.

yawn.

more MYTH made hysterical OPINION. where is your FACT to support these OBVIOUSLY slanted and subjective claims?

and even were one to concede a number (whatever that might be, because you surely haven't provided any), do those outweight the number of disgraceful performances?

sorry, NO.

During the Lakers heyday, there were series where Shaq were the dominating force. There were series where Kobe as the dominating force.

really? during which "series" would you propose the notion that tobe was a "dominating force"? remember, you didn't claim "game", but "series". this should be interesting.

You can count the number of players in one hand that has played to the level in the playoffs as Kobe Bryant has.

yawn.

"coke/pepsi beats pepsi/coke in taste tests"
"charmin is the softest"
"whoppers are better than big macs"
"360/ps3 is better than ps3/360"

more subjective fan-boyisms. substantiation? OPINION is NOT FACT.

the Detroit Pistons were the better team than the Los Angeles Lakers. Period.

correct. detroit played as a team and won as a team. tobe hijacked the fakers and the team lost.

the Pistons win 2 games of that series running away in a blowout and another game by 12....you cant put that just on Kobe.

first, there was a single 20 point blowout. and in that game, shaquille o'neal was in foul trouble. what a coincidence, huh? i guess the "world's greatest player" wasn't ready to take on the burden of doing the heavy lifting, was he?

second, in your previous post, you wrote that the pistons were daring other fakers to beat them. i guess that since now you've been presented with the FACTS which clearly refute that claim, you're going to try to distance yourself from your earlier statement.

tobe sabotaged the fakers and betrayed his teammates with his selfish, piss poor play.

 

[dh86]

yawn.

more MYTH made hysterical OPINION. where is your FACT to support these OBVIOUSLY slanted and subjective claims?

and even were one to concede a number (whatever that might be, because you surely haven't provided any), do those outweight the number of disgraceful performances?

sorry, NO.



really? during which "series" would you propose the notion that tobe was a "dominating force"? remember, you didn't claim "game", but "series". this should be interesting.



yawn.

"coke/pepsi beats pepsi/coke in taste tests"
"charmin is the softest"
"whoppers are better than big macs"
"360/ps3 is better than ps3/360"

more subjective fan-boyisms. substantiation? OPINION is NOT FACT.



correct. detroit played as a team and won as a team. tobe hijacked the fakers and the team lost.



first, there was a single 20 point blowout. and in that game, shaquille o'neal was in foul trouble. what a coincidence, huh? i guess the "world's greatest player" wasn't ready to take on the burden of doing the heavy lifting, was he?

second, in your previous post, you wrote that the pistons were daring other fakers to beat them. i guess that since now you've been presented with the FACTS which clearly refute that claim, you're going to try to distance yourself from your earlier statement.

tobe sabotaged the fakers and betrayed his teammates with his selfish, piss poor play.

In the clinching game, Pistons were up 23 at the end of the third and both teams emptied the bench in the 4th as the Lakers got closer. Shaq got at least 4 fouls in every game of that series, along with 18 of the 22 playoff games that year due to him being fatigued and not being able to move his feet like he once did. To answer your question, T'Wolves and Spurs that year. But really, im waiting on that list. Are you ashamed that I would dissect your list? Just post the list and get it out of the way.

 

[dh86]

Not to mention the Spurs in 03, Nets in 02, Spurs in 01...

 

[cranrab]

Shaq got at least 4 fouls in every game of that series, along with 18 of the 22 playoff games that year

i don't know about the alternate universe you reside in, but 4 PFs through 4 quarters of basketball is NOT any sort of problem.

due to him being fatigued and not being able to move his feet like he once did.

how many of those PFs were offensive (due to referees calling the game differently than they had in prior seasons) and how many were defensive?

do you ever bother to check FACTS?

on top of that, do you realize that tobe's historically piss poor perimeter defense puts an undue burden on fakers' froncourt players? coach jackson, coach winter, karl malone and shaquille o'neal have all spoken on this subject.

im waiting on that list. Are you ashamed that I would dissect your list? Just post the list and get it out of the way.

you'll have to wait a few more days, after i return from CES & AVN. i have to apply 2 filters to the data, then you'll have your list, which will probably easily exceed 100 players.

and why would i be ashamed? none of your previous "dissections" have employed logic or FACT, so it's a safe bet this one would also be empty of either also.

 

[xfactor]

Kevin Garnett has achieved more team success than Jermaine O'Neal? (scratches head)

Kind of hard for you to legitimately claim that Jermaine O'Neal has had more TEAM success than KG when O'Neal has never played a complete season and has only played 75 games or more in 3 out of 11 total seasons. (Opposed to KG having played 75 games or more in 11 out of 12 seasons)

Not to mention the seasons that O'Neal was relied on to "carry the team" compared to Garnett's (who lead the team to the Western Conference Finals and won an NBA MVP Award)

I guess that you are referring to O'Neal's superior "TEAM" success as cheering his team on from the bench or punching out rabid fans running onto the court

 

[cranrab]

my question is this: intended for no one in particular: If it was Kobes fault the Lakers lost to the Pistons, whose fault was it when Shaq got swept those 6 times (twice in the first round).

no need to be coy, TR.

i'll answer this easy question.

shaquille o'neal was either not the best player on the floor (example: michael jordan, hakeem olajuwon)

or

was facing a team with superior coaching (example: larry brown v. brian hill, greg popovich v. del harris)

once you paired coach jackson and shaquille o'neal it became a winning combination. additionally, you're doing apples and oranges, because shaquille o'neal never single-handedly shot his team out of a series.