Sottie Pippen's take on the current Chicago Bulls players

[dh86]

Kind of hard for you to legitimately claim that Jermaine O'Neal has had more TEAM success than KG when O'Neal has never played a complete season and has only played 75 games or more in 3 out of 11 total seasons. (Opposed to KG having played 75 games or more in 11 out of 12 seasons)

Not to mention the seasons that O'Neal was relied on to "carry the team" compared to Garnett's (who lead the team to the Western Conference Finals and won an NBA MVP Award)

I guess that you are referring to O'Neal's superior "TEAM" success as cheering his team on from the bench or punching out rabid fans running onto the court

I didnt say superior, but Kevin Garnett's team success includes, 4 trips to the lottery, including the last 3 seasons. 7 first round eliminations, and the conference finals. Not counting the Portland days, Jermaine surpassed KG in terms of that prior to this season of course which is still pending.

 

[xfactor]

Not counting the Portland days

This is the "logical" argument that prep to pro supporters like to use when trying to promote their faulty claims.

I.E. Not counting the Portland days.

I.E. Not counting Wobe's first 4 seasons, his career stats would be better.

Well, if the prep players were good enough to log major minutes and/or start from the jump like KG and LeBron James were able to do, there would be no need to chop off almost a third of their NBA careers to make your argument look better.

EDIT - Also, not counting the PTB days, if you think 6 trips to the playoffs is greater than 7, and if you think cheerleading from the bench for almost 20% of that time equates to "positive team contributions" then you're more delusional than I thought.

 

[cranrab]

Shaq took the number of shots consistent with the number he was taking all season long.

that's precisely the problem. during the fakers' championship seasons (2000-2002), shaquille o'neal's FGAs INCREASED in the playoffs over his regular season averages.

in 2004, shaquille o'neal's FGAs DECREASED in the playoffs over his regular season averages.

NOT a coincidence.

Forcing the ball to him more wouldnt have lead the outcome of games to be any different than what it was.

yawn.

more speculation and overt OPINION sharing. not FACT.

Do you think forcing him the ball would make the Miami Heat not the worst team in the NBA?

yes.

Can he even play 5 straight minutes of good basketball anymore?

yes.

Kobe had to take those shots over the Pistons defense for the Lakers to have a chance at winning. Who else did you want him to pass to? Payton, Fisher, Rush, George, Slava all had wide open shots all series and bricked. Pistons played Shaq one on one every game rotating Ben, Sheed and Elden. Kobe had Prince with Rip, Billups and the pitbulls off the bench all slagging off their man to get in Kobe's passing lanes.

so according to you, a post player who is shooting 56% and getting single coverage should NOT be receiving the ball more?

more amazing still according to you, a perimeter player who is shooting 38% and being defended by a "halo" of defenders should be taking the lion's share of the FGAs?

 

[cranrab]

Not to mention the seasons that O'Neal was relied on to "carry the team"

as an aside to the jermaine o'neal reference, isn't it funny how "franchise guy" jermaine o'neal has been outplayed head to head by "garbage bum" andrew bynum the last couple meetings?



guess some people (including the "greatest player in the game") aren't really all that good at estimating talent.

 

[TimRock]

This is the "logical" argument that prep to pro supporters like to use when trying to promote their faulty claims.

I.E. Not counting the Portland days.

I.E. Not counting Wobe's first 4 seasons, his career stats would be better.

Well, if the prep players were good enough to log major minutes and/or start from the jump like KG and LeBron James were able to do, there would be no need to chop off almost a third of their NBA careers to make your argument look better.

I agree with this. But, KG and Lebron got drafted 5th and 1st overall, meaning, they were automatically going to teams where it wouldnt be hard to crack the starting 5 (check both teams records prior to these draft choices). Whereas Kobe and Jermain were drafted by teams that already had a solid starting 5 (both teams had winning records prior to the draft). Jermaine would not have started over Brian, Wallace or Sabonis. And Kobe wouldnt have started over Eddie.

 

[cranrab]

To answer your question, T'Wolves and Spurs that year.

Spurs in 03, Nets in 02, Spurs in 01

substantiation? rationale for claim?

or more hype?

 

[cranrab]

I agree with this. But, KG and Lebron got drafted 5th and 1st overall, meaning, they were automatically going to teams where it wouldnt be hard to crack the starting 5 (check both teams records prior to these draft choices).

TR, you disappoint me.

KG didn't have a starting spot waiting for him. KG mired on the bench watching the sorry ass timberwolves go 11-29 before he took sam mitchell's spot.

but hey, i'm sure sitting behind christian laettner on a losing squad taught him SO much more than going to college would have.

for those wondering how they did AFTER KG got in the starting lineup, they went 15-27.

 

[xfactor]

as an aside to the jermaine o'neal reference, isn't it funny how "franchise guy" jermaine o'neal has been outplayed head to head by "garbage bum" andrew bynum the last couple meetings?



guess some people (including the "greatest player in the game") aren't really all that good at estimating talent.

I was talking about this a couple of week back during the Christmas matchup vs. the Suns.

I thought it was funny that the only significant move in personnel between last year's team and this year's team is Derek Fisher starting at PG instead of Smush Parker yet before the season the lakers' fans (and Wobe) were bitching about the team not having any talent and Wobe begging for a trade to Chicago.

Two months into the season...

lakers' fans must be smokin' that good shit to have forgotten that the "new and improved" lakers are the SAME team they complained about just a year prior.

I say "new and improved" because the 2006-2007 team was actually sporting the SAME record after 33 games than the current one.

 

[TimRock]

TR, you disappoint me.

KG didn't have a starting spot waiting for him. KG mired on the bench watching the sorry ass timberwolves go 11-29 before he took sam mitchell's spot.

but hey, i'm sure sitting behind christian laettner on a losing squad taught him SO much more than going to college would have.

for those wondering how they did AFTER KG got in the starting lineup, they went 15-27.

I said it wouldnt be hard, not that he would automatically start.

 

[cranrab]

I thought it was funny that the only significant move in personnel between last year's team and this year's team is Derek Fisher starting at PG instead of Smush Parker yet before the season the lakers' fans (and Wobe) were bitching about the team not having any talent and Wobe begging for a trade to Chicago.

I say "new and improved" because the 2006-2007 team was actually sporting the SAME record after 33 games than the current one.

you know?

sure is a good thing they got rid of that "wack" william parker.

22-11 last year (14 road games), 22-11 this year (15 road games).

next thing you know they'll be scapegoating mitch kupchak because tobe can't shoulder the load all by his little lonesome. oh wait, they already did that.

 

[cranrab]

I never saw a Shaq team with Kobe get swept out of round 1

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team finish under .500 before. how 'bout a tobe team?

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team finish last in their division before. how 'bout a tobe team?

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team NOT go to the finals within 4 seasons of him arriving as the "franchise guy". how 'bout a tobe team (for those who mistakenly believe he is a "franchise guy")?

 

[dh86]

substantiation? rationale for claim?

or more hype?

2001 Western Conferernce Finals. This is the internet, you can get any kind of information you want. Better yet..

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2001/finals/west/?nav=SiteFragment

 

[dh86]

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team finish under .500 before. how 'bout a tobe team?

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team finish last in their division before. how 'bout a tobe team?

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team NOT go to the finals within 4 seasons of him arriving as the "franchise guy". how 'bout a tobe team (for those who mistakenly believe he is a "franchise guy")?

Son, you have took this topic at hand, held it up in the sky and lit it on fire. I am not questioning Shaquille O'Neal as a player nor his role on the Lakers championships. I dont even feel we disagree anymore to be honest with you. You bringing up 1 playoff series that Kobe "cost" the Lakers in out of Kobe's 27 playoff series? Bringing up 15 or so games out of his 800 game tenure with the Lakers as proof of him "bringing down the team". Blaming a 7 time all defensive team member for poor perimeter defense? It occurs to me that you hold Kobe Bryant to a far higher standard than any other player in the NBA. You believe that Kobe is the best player in the NBA. He spits in the face of your hilarious prep to pros argument (way to ignore the Gretzky/Lebron post). If you were, in fact, stupid enough to actually make the list of 100 more complete players than Kobe...heres who would have to be on the list:
Players that were drafted out of high school
Bench players on other teams
Players that has never won a playoff series
Players that have never scored 40 in a playoff game
Players that Kobe have lit up
Players that hasnt even made 2 all star games
Kobe's own teammates

I dont think too highly of you, but you wont make that list. You arent even able to gather up the courage to post a few names. I wont hold you to it.

 

[dh86]

This is the "logical" argument that prep to pro supporters like to use when trying to promote their faulty claims.

I.E. Not counting the Portland days.

I.E. Not counting Wobe's first 4 seasons, his career stats would be better.

Well, if the prep players were good enough to log major minutes and/or start from the jump like KG and LeBron James were able to do, there would be no need to chop off almost a third of their NBA careers to make your argument look better.

EDIT - Also, not counting the PTB days, if you think 6 trips to the playoffs is greater than 7, and if you think cheerleading from the bench for almost 20% of that time equates to "positive team contributions" then you're more delusional than I thought.

I said not counting the Portland days as he rarely played in Portland so the winning that Jermaine experienced there shouldnt count in this discussion. Kevin Garnett has made a long career out of falling short time and again (I expect it again in 2008). He has slightly won more than Jermaine and also have more trips to the lottery than Jermaine as well

 

[dh86]

TR, you disappoint me.

KG didn't have a starting spot waiting for him. KG mired on the bench watching the sorry ass timberwolves go 11-29 before he took sam mitchell's spot.

but hey, i'm sure sitting behind christian laettner on a losing squad taught him SO much more than going to college would have.

for those wondering how they did AFTER KG got in the starting lineup, they went 15-27.

Evidently,yes, as he was a 2 time all star with 2 playoff appearances by age 21. Toying around with the Big Ten would have done nothing for KG. See the Gretzky/Lebron post.

 

[dh86]

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team finish under .500 before. how 'bout a tobe team?

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team finish last in their division before. how 'bout a tobe team?

and i've never seen a shaquille o'neal team NOT go to the finals within 4 seasons of him arriving as the "franchise guy". how 'bout a tobe team (for those who mistakenly believe he is a "franchise guy")?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/standings

 

[cranrab]

2001 Western Conferernce Finals. This is the internet, you can get any kind of information you want. Better yet..

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2001/finals/west/?nav=SiteFragment

uh, i don't need a link. i WATCHED that series. obviously unlike yourself.

if you believe that tobe was the "dominating force" you are clearly delusional.

and BTW, that link was not PROOF of anything.

why am i not surprised?

 

[cranrab]

You bringing up 1 playoff series that Kobe "cost" the Lakers in out of Kobe's 27 playoff series?

nobody said only 1. i merely referenced only 1. shaquille o'neal and the other veterans were able to neutralize tobe's shabby play during the fakers championship runs.

Bringing up 15 or so games out of his 800 game tenure with the Lakers as proof of him "bringing down the team".

do you always pull random numbers out of your ass and inject them into discussions? i never said 15 (there are actually MANY more), and thanks for proving that you choose to speak out of ignorance on a topic.

Blaming a 7 time all defensive team member for poor perimeter defense?

there's no blame. it's a simple FACT. coach jackson has said so. shaquille o'neal has said so. karl malone has said so. gary payton has said so. devean george has said so. and on and on.

It occurs to me that you hold Kobe Bryant to a far higher standard than any other player in the NBA.

as expected, yet another incorrect conclusion from a juvenile mind.

You believe that Kobe is the best player in the NBA.

He spits in the face of your hilarious prep to pros argument (way to ignore the Gretzky/Lebron post).

were you old enough to have WATCHED tobe play, you'd know how supremely incorrect you are. tobe is living PROOF IN SUPPORT of my prep-to-pro assessment. utah jazz airballs anyone?

to actually make the list of 100 more complete players than Kobe...heres who would have to be on the list:
Players that were drafted out of high school
Bench players on other teams
Players that has never won a playoff series
Players that have never scored 40 in a playoff game
Players that Kobe have lit up
Players that hasnt even made 2 all star games
Kobe's own teammates

alexw is correct. you are a complete imbecile. i HOPE that you are not college educated, because you are a POOR POOR example of today's youth.

through what sort of convoluted logic would you conclude that being a member of ANY of those subsets would preclude a player from being "more complete"?

I dont think too highly of you, but you wont make that list. You arent even able to gather up the courage to post a few names. I wont hold you to it.

oh, whatever will i do now that the simpleton has employed reverse psychology?

dimwit, go back and read when i wrote i would post the list.

stans just can't wait.

 

[cranrab]

Evidently,yes, as he was a 2 time all star with 2 playoff appearances by age 21.

your lack of reasoning ability is shameful.

kevin garnett could have attended college for 1 season and still had 2 playoff appearances by age 21.

Toying around with the Big Ten would have done nothing for KG. See the Gretzky/Lebron post.

yawn.

so we've heard you SPECULATE before ad nauseum.

wow. since speculation = PROOF in your universe, then i'll simply retort that kevin garnett attending college for 1 year would have dramatically improved his game, resulting in more wins his rookie year as a professional, and additional wins in the playoffs.

that sure was easy.

 

[c_commander]

Jermaine O'Neal isn't as good as KG. But he has experienced more team success as the so-called top player for his team. The Pacers have consistently been in the playoffs and have been considered a potential conference winner in years past while the Timberwolves barely got into the playoffs most years. That said the difference is all because of 2 former Celtics: Kevin McHale and Larry Bird. While the Wolves were pissing off Cassell and Sprewell, drafting the likes of Ndubi Ebi (over Josh Howard,BTW), Paul Grant, William Avery, and Rasho Nesterovic the Pacers were acquiring players like Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Ron Artest, Al Harrington and Brad Miller.Its all about the supporting cast and the 1 year Garnett had that the team played great. You put him with those players and he might have a ring by now.
Further breakdown:Career Averages(Timberwolves 1rst round picks)
William Avery: 2.7ppg 0.7rpg 1.4apg
Ndubi Ebi: 2.1ppg 1.0rpg 0.2apg
Paul Grant: 1.8ppg 1.1rpg 0.2apg
Rasho Nesterovic: 6.8ppg 5.5rpg 1.0apg