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Netflix: The Punisher official discussion thread UPDATE: HE IS BACK! (Daredevil Reborn)
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‘The Punisher’ & ‘Jessica Jones’ Canceled By Netflix; Latter’s 3rd Season Still To Air
by Dominic Patten
February 18, 2019 8:26am
Marvel
(UPDATED with Marvel Statement) EXCLUSIVE: Exactly a month after the launch of its second season on Netflix, Marvel’s The Punisher has had to bite the bullet as has Jessica Jones.
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As the only two series from the TV arm of the comic giant still left on the streamer, there will be no Season 3 of the Jon Bernthal led vigilante series, I’ve learned. The completed third season of the Krysten Ritter starring Jessica Jones will still appear on the streamer but will be put on ice for good after that.
This marks the end of the multi-series, big bucks and big ambitions relationship between Marvel and Netflix that started in 2013 with the announcement of four series and a The Defenders limited series.
“Marvel’s The Punisher will not return for a third season on Netflix,” Netflix confirmed today to Deadline. “Showrunner Steve Lightfoot, the terrific crew, and exceptional cast including star Jon Bernthal, delivered an acclaimed and compelling series for fans, and we are proud to showcase their work on Netflix for years to come,” the streamer added.
“In addition, in reviewing our Marvel programming, we have decided that the upcoming third season will also be the final season for Marvel’s Jessica Jones,” Netflix also made official this President’s Day. “We are grateful to showrunner Melissa Rosenberg, star Krysten Ritter and the entire cast and crew, for three incredible seasons of this groundbreaking series, which was recognized by the Peabody Awards among many others”.
“We are grateful to Marvel for five years of our fruitful partnership and thank the passionate fans who have followed these series from the beginning.”
The Jeph Loeb-led Marvel TV issued their own words of celebration and farewell after Deadline exclusively broke the news of the duel cancelation – with a kicker shout out to Daredevil, the first of the Marvel series to air on Netflix on April 10, 2015.
It had never been done before. Four separate television series, each with different super-talented showrunners, writers, directors, cast and crew, coming out months apart and then …they would meet in a single event series all set in the heart of New York City. We called them The Defenders.
And together we were thrilled by stories of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and even the Punisher joined in! They said it couldn’t be done.But Marvel assembled amazing teams to write, produce, direct, edit, and score 13 seasons and 161 one-hour episodes. Take a moment and go online and look at the dazzling list of actors, writers, directors, and musicians who graced us with the very best of their craft.
We loved each and every minute of it.
And we did it all for you — the fans — who cheered for us around the world and made all the hard work worth it.
On behalf of everyone at Marvel Television, we couldn’t be more proud or more grateful to our audience. Our Network partner may have decided they no longer want to continue telling the tales of these great characters… but you know Marvel better than that,” the company added.
As Matthew Murdock’s Dad once said, ‘The measure of a man is not how he gets knocked to the mat, it’s how he gets back up. To be continued…!
Though the decision not to bring Punisher back for more has been rumored for weeks, Netflix and Marvel waited until after the January 18 debuting 13-episode Season 2 had been on the streamer for several weeks before making the cancellation official. The end of Jones comes as more of a shocker – though I hear the end of the upcoming third and final season will serve as a savory series finale.
The news of the end of Punisher and Jessica Jones follows the revelation that Walking Dead alum Bernthal is set to join New Line’s The Sopranos prequel feature, which currently has the working title of The Many Saints of Newark. In part it was because of new roles and new work like The Sopranos pic, the streamer didn’t want to have the creators and cast for either show hanging on waiting for renewals that clearly weren’t in the cards
Bernthal took to social media this morning to offer a cryptic farewell of sorts:
After Iron Fist, Luke Cage and Daredevil were all given the chop late last year by the streamer, the unplugging of further seasons of the blood and bullet strewn Frank Castle saga should really come as no surprise. With new and old Marvel content a big component of the upcoming Disney+ streaming service, the final stage of the disentangling of the once burgeoning relationship between the House of Mouse and Netflix has now become more a matter of when and how not if.
Additionally, the Loeb-run Marvel TV inked a four-series and one special deal with the soon-to-be Disney dominated Hulu on February 11 that will surely become the new focus of the comic giant’s small screen division.
As a part of the Marvel and Netflix collaboration that came together six years ago, Jessica Jones the TV series was the second series in the arrangement to launch on the streamer after Daredevil.
Starring Breaking Bad alum Ritter in the title role of the emotionally shattered and hard living super powered P.I., Jones Season 1 debuted on November 15, 2015, with the second season launching on March 8, 2018. A third run of the critically acclaimed show about the Defenders member was ordered by Netflix back on April 12 last year
First introduced in the Netflix universe with the March 18, 2016 launching second season of Daredevil, the Punisher is a ruthless and mercilessly fatal hunter of criminals who has long challenged, to be polite, the Marvel moral code since he appeared in the comics in early 1974.
After WME repped Bernthal was announced in 2015 for the role in the Man Without Fear series, the character was given his own spinoff show. in 2016. Season 1 of The Punisherdebuted on November 2017. Though a New York Comic Con panel for the firearms filled show was wiped off the schedule after the tragic mass shooting in Las Vegas on October 2, 2017, a second season pickup was made public just weeks later.
Now, despite the last upcoming run of the final season of Jessica Jones later this year, the Marvel days at Netflix are deader than someone who rubbed Frank Castle the wrong way – and that’s dead.
disney/marvel/pixar has too much of thier own content and the potential for all the spinoffs and whatnot to be dealing with a 3rd party or middleman..
don't be surprised if/when those shows come back when they do their own streaming service.
the big issue i have is how many separate streaming services are people going to get to keep up with all these shows??
don't be surprised if/when those shows come back when they do their own streaming service.
the big issue i have is how many separate streaming services are people going to get to keep up with all these shows??
"Put simply: Netflix did not have an ownership stake in any of its Marvel TV series. Each of the six Marvel shows was owned by Disney. Netflix paid ABC Studios a (steep) licensing fee for each season of its respective series."
Nothing too surprising in the above, but certainly plenty of validation for fans and industry figures who always peculated on this being this situation going on behind the iron curtain of Netflix.
As the article indicates, there is indeed a new phase of the entertainment industry gearing up now for full launch in 2020. Studios are scrambling to find ways of owning and distributing their content direct to consumers, circumventing the expensive licensing fees that come with broadcast TV or third-party streaming services like Netflix and Hulu. Disney+ is by far the biggest and most ambitious -- especially after the merger with 20th Century Fox; however, we're already seeing CBS All Access, DC Universe, and soon a Warner Bros. streaming service all securing their own content corners, as well.
Marvel Cinematic Universe content into one place, and these Netflix shows are a part of that. It just remains to be seen if they continue on Disney+ (or something like FX, which Disney now owns), or get fully recast and rebooted for a full MCU integration.
https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/02/19/why-marvel-netflix-series-shows-cancelled-explained/
Nothing too surprising in the above, but certainly plenty of validation for fans and industry figures who always peculated on this being this situation going on behind the iron curtain of Netflix.
As the article indicates, there is indeed a new phase of the entertainment industry gearing up now for full launch in 2020. Studios are scrambling to find ways of owning and distributing their content direct to consumers, circumventing the expensive licensing fees that come with broadcast TV or third-party streaming services like Netflix and Hulu. Disney+ is by far the biggest and most ambitious -- especially after the merger with 20th Century Fox; however, we're already seeing CBS All Access, DC Universe, and soon a Warner Bros. streaming service all securing their own content corners, as well.
Marvel Cinematic Universe content into one place, and these Netflix shows are a part of that. It just remains to be seen if they continue on Disney+ (or something like FX, which Disney now owns), or get fully recast and rebooted for a full MCU integration.
https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/02/19/why-marvel-netflix-series-shows-cancelled-explained/
Punisher Star Wishes Eminem Chimed In 'Before the Show Got Axed'
Actor Jason R. Moore, who played Curtis Hoyle on Marvel's The Punisher TV series, has revealed that he wishes rapper Eminem had chimed in about the show before its cancellation.
"Apparently Eminem's like a fan, like a big fan. He had his little issue, right?" Moore told TMZ. "He had Eminem/The Punisher issue. And so he was, apparently, watching it and enjoying it and then when he heard the show got axed he was like, he had to say something. He voiced it, made a pretty big splash on Twitter. [...] It was a good look. Eminem, he should have probably been chiming in earlier on, before the show got axed."
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RELATED: Jon Bernthal Responds to Eminem's Outrage Over Punisher Cancellation
Moore was appreciative of Eminem speaking up for the series, and added that he was prepared for the cancellation, as it's the "nature of the business." He admitted once Daredevil, Luke Cage and Iron Fist were finished, he knew The Punisher would meet the same fate.
Even if Marvel does somehow revive the show, Moore sounded pessimistic the cast would be able to return. "It's going to be very hard to collect all of us, like the original cast. We're all moving on," he said.
RELATED: The Punisher: Jigsaw Actor Ben Barnes Comments on Cancelation
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The Punisher Season 2 stars Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle, Ben Barnes as Billy Russo, Amber Rose Revah as Dinah Madani, Deborah Ann Woll as Karen Page, Jason R. Moore as Curtis Hoyle, Josh Stewart as John Pilgrim, Floriana Lima as Krista Dumont and Giorgia Whigham as Amy Bendix. Both seasons of the show, along with all its sister series, are now streaming on Netflix.
- by Renaldo Matadeen
- – on Feb 24, 2019
- in TV, TV News
Actor Jason R. Moore, who played Curtis Hoyle on Marvel's The Punisher TV series, has revealed that he wishes rapper Eminem had chimed in about the show before its cancellation.
"Apparently Eminem's like a fan, like a big fan. He had his little issue, right?" Moore told TMZ. "He had Eminem/The Punisher issue. And so he was, apparently, watching it and enjoying it and then when he heard the show got axed he was like, he had to say something. He voiced it, made a pretty big splash on Twitter. [...] It was a good look. Eminem, he should have probably been chiming in earlier on, before the show got axed."
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RELATED: Jon Bernthal Responds to Eminem's Outrage Over Punisher Cancellation
Moore was appreciative of Eminem speaking up for the series, and added that he was prepared for the cancellation, as it's the "nature of the business." He admitted once Daredevil, Luke Cage and Iron Fist were finished, he knew The Punisher would meet the same fate.
Even if Marvel does somehow revive the show, Moore sounded pessimistic the cast would be able to return. "It's going to be very hard to collect all of us, like the original cast. We're all moving on," he said.
RELATED: The Punisher: Jigsaw Actor Ben Barnes Comments on Cancelation
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The Punisher Season 2 stars Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle, Ben Barnes as Billy Russo, Amber Rose Revah as Dinah Madani, Deborah Ann Woll as Karen Page, Jason R. Moore as Curtis Hoyle, Josh Stewart as John Pilgrim, Floriana Lima as Krista Dumont and Giorgia Whigham as Amy Bendix. Both seasons of the show, along with all its sister series, are now streaming on Netflix.
Jon Bernthal Responds to Eminem's Outrage Over Punisher Cancellation
Though many were upset by news of The Punisher's cancellation, Grammy Award-winning rapper Marshall Mathers was particularly vocal about his displeasure. Yesterday, the rapper -- known to most as Eminem -- posted on Twitter that Netflix was "blowing it" by axing the series.
Punisher actor Jon Bernthal responded to the rap star, saying he was honored that he watched the show, and called Eminem "the King."
RELATED: Punisher: Eminem Calls Out Netflix for Cancelling Marvel Show
Jon Bernthal
✔@jonnybernthal
https://twitter.com/jonnybernthal/status/1098746238177083392
Dear Em. Honored you watch brother.
. You are the King.
Marshall Mathers
✔@Eminem
DEAR @NETFLIX,
REGARDING YOUR CANCELLATION OF THE PUNISHER, YOU ARE BLOWING IT!!
SINCERELY,
MARSHALL
45K
7:48 PM - Feb 21, 2019
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8,891 people are talking about this
A longtime fan of the Marvel Comics character, Eminem starred in 2009 digital comic Eminem/The Punisher by Fred Van Lente and Salvador Larroca. The comic saw the two figures come to blows before realizing they had a common enemy in the popular Punisher villain Barracuda.
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RELATED: The Punisher: Jigsaw Actor Ben Barnes Comments on Cancelation
Punisher wasn't the only Marvel series cancelled at Netflix. Daredevil stars Vincent D'Onfrio and Charlie Cox have also expressed their disappointment at the axing of Daredevil. Kristen Ritter also shared her hopes that fans would appreciate the end they created for Jessica Jones, which was cancelled in the same announcement as Punisher.
Moments before Punisher's cancellation was officially announced, Bernthal took to Instagram to say it was an "honor to walk in [Punisher's] boots." He added that he is "endlessly grateful to the comic fans and the men and women of the Armed Services and law enforcement community who Frank means so much to." He also thanked the USMC and the soldiers who trained him for his role in Punisher.
The Punisher Season 2 stars Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle, Ben Barnes as Billy Russo, Amber Rose Revah as Dinah Madani, Deborah Ann Woll as Karen Page, Jason R. Moore as Curtis Hoyle, Josh Stewart as John Pilgrim, Floriana Lima as Krista Dumont and Giorgia Whigham as Amy Bendix. Both seasons of the show, along with all its sister series, are now streaming on Netflix.
- by Shawn S. Lealos
- – on Feb 22, 2019
- in TV, TV News
Though many were upset by news of The Punisher's cancellation, Grammy Award-winning rapper Marshall Mathers was particularly vocal about his displeasure. Yesterday, the rapper -- known to most as Eminem -- posted on Twitter that Netflix was "blowing it" by axing the series.
Punisher actor Jon Bernthal responded to the rap star, saying he was honored that he watched the show, and called Eminem "the King."
RELATED: Punisher: Eminem Calls Out Netflix for Cancelling Marvel Show
Jon Bernthal
✔@jonnybernthal
https://twitter.com/jonnybernthal/status/1098746238177083392
Dear Em. Honored you watch brother.
Marshall Mathers
✔@Eminem
DEAR @NETFLIX,
REGARDING YOUR CANCELLATION OF THE PUNISHER, YOU ARE BLOWING IT!!
SINCERELY,
MARSHALL
45K
7:48 PM - Feb 21, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
8,891 people are talking about this
A longtime fan of the Marvel Comics character, Eminem starred in 2009 digital comic Eminem/The Punisher by Fred Van Lente and Salvador Larroca. The comic saw the two figures come to blows before realizing they had a common enemy in the popular Punisher villain Barracuda.
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RELATED: The Punisher: Jigsaw Actor Ben Barnes Comments on Cancelation
Punisher wasn't the only Marvel series cancelled at Netflix. Daredevil stars Vincent D'Onfrio and Charlie Cox have also expressed their disappointment at the axing of Daredevil. Kristen Ritter also shared her hopes that fans would appreciate the end they created for Jessica Jones, which was cancelled in the same announcement as Punisher.
Moments before Punisher's cancellation was officially announced, Bernthal took to Instagram to say it was an "honor to walk in [Punisher's] boots." He added that he is "endlessly grateful to the comic fans and the men and women of the Armed Services and law enforcement community who Frank means so much to." He also thanked the USMC and the soldiers who trained him for his role in Punisher.
The Punisher Season 2 stars Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle, Ben Barnes as Billy Russo, Amber Rose Revah as Dinah Madani, Deborah Ann Woll as Karen Page, Jason R. Moore as Curtis Hoyle, Josh Stewart as John Pilgrim, Floriana Lima as Krista Dumont and Giorgia Whigham as Amy Bendix. Both seasons of the show, along with all its sister series, are now streaming on Netflix.
Punisher: Eminem Calls Out Netflix for Cancelling Marvel Show
1
Earlier this week, Netflix cancelled its Marvel Cinematic Universe series The Punisher after two seasons. Among the more notable fans vocal about the series' ending has been Academy Award and Grammy Award-winning rapper Marshall Mathers, better known as Eminem.
In a post on his Twitter account, Mathers penned an angry message to Netflix, calling out the premium streaming service for cancelling the series.
RELATED: The Punisher: Jigsaw Actor Ben Barnes Comments on Cancelation
Marshall Mathers
✔@Eminem
https://twitter.com/Eminem/status/1098428332113301504
DEAR @NETFLIX,
REGARDING YOUR CANCELLATION OF THE PUNISHER, YOU ARE BLOWING IT!!
SINCERELY,
MARSHALL
526K
10:44 PM - Feb 20, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
154K people are talking about this
A longtime fan of the Marvel Comics character, Eminem starred in 2009 digital comic Eminem/The Punisher by Fred Van Lente and Salvador Larroca. The comic saw the two figures come to blows before realizing they had a common enemy in the popular Punisher villain Barracuda.
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RELATED: Jon Bernthal Hints at Punisher Cancellation with Cryptic Message
News of the MCU series' cancellation was announced earlier this week, with the live-action series cancelled together with Jessica Jones ahead of the latter's third season premiere.
The Punisher Season 2 stars Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle, Ben Barnes as Billy Russo, Amber Rose Revah as Dinah Madani, Deborah Ann Woll as Karen Page, Jason R. Moore as Curtis Hoyle, Josh Stewart as John Pilgrim, Floriana Lima as Krista Dumont and Giorgia Whigham as Amy Bendix. Both seasons of the show, along with all its sister series, are now streaming on Netflix.
I think the big problem is they have a 24 month clause... So Disney / Marvel will have to have at least a year gap for all those shows... So in the meantime they have to find a way to keep most of the actors and some essential crew "on board" while they find other work. Also they need to secure new lots / production spaces and then when they get that they have to replicate the old sets / pieces.....
It is no easy task or undertaking, but the Mouse is the one company that I would expect that could pull this off. I would say most of the shows will have at minimum an 18 month gap, IF they decide to bring the shows over to plus.
I did not know this... No wonder flix wanted them gone... There was little upside / return for them especially considering plus is around the corner.
It is no easy task or undertaking, but the Mouse is the one company that I would expect that could pull this off. I would say most of the shows will have at minimum an 18 month gap, IF they decide to bring the shows over to plus.
I did not know this... No wonder flix wanted them gone... There was little upside / return for them especially considering plus is around the corner.
I honestly just realized i never finished watching this.
I really liked the first season dark bloody and the ptsd theme was very well done.
Season 2: I like that Frank had a "daughter" while not perfectly executed she added some lightness and humor.
I think she could have been better if she was black or Hispanic for some reason.
Jigsaw. The guy can act period. I saw EXACTLY what he was trying to do. But unfortunately he was dealing with an iconic character essentially the JOKER of that universe. You can't try to get all deep subtle metaphorical with it.
You gotta go FULL JIGSAW at some point.
Especially if you gonna kill him like THAT.
That character DESERVED that.
And i get Mcnaulty already portrayed him... but this series and the fans deserved better.
And damn they make Curtis frustrating as hell...
I liked him as Frank gun toting one legged conscience. But he was just doing dumb stuff like leaving the girl taking the senator etc
The black cop Malhoney is funny.
The psychiatrist storyline was so damn predictable and i mean paint by numbers it was embarrassing.
But that cat fight was well done
I'm torn on the acting for the second season.
I felt like some scenes it was borderline bad. And others emmy worthy.
Got absolutely no complaints with the punisher he is that character.
Dinah grows on you and she got that smoldering sexy.
https://www.bgol.us/forum/threads/amber-rose-revah-aka-dinah-madani.1043091/
Pilgram should have been iconic and they just didn't know what to do. Just do the Mennonite or not. Wtf?
@largebillsonlyplease is correct as usual all these series are just to damn long.
@fonzerrillii is right though, it was like a action movie rollercoaster
I enjoyed the hell out of it.
Good old fashioned 2 fisted violence
Sad to see it go.
Sidebar...
Why no fan fiction of John "Die Hard" McClane vs. Frank "The Punisher" Castle,
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McClane is an average everyday "Joe" that rises to the occasion to defeat bad guys...
Castle is an excellent marksman, weapons enthusiast and skilled in hand to hand combat... Plus he has decades of comic book mythos...
McClane had one 8 issue limited series.....
To be honest Punisher should be able to knock off McClane, not super easily but also it shouldn't be too much of a challenge either. Imo
I think with ny in turmoilas the backdrop?
It would be entertaining as hell.
I think the netflix version v willis would be very very competitive
Frank wins but it will be bloody on both sides.
You know what....
Now, I'm kind of interested...
Lets flesh this out..... What kind of threat are we talking.... Domestic terrorism or one of Franks numerous enemies?
And how does McClane get on Castle's bad side?
But yeah I could see it being bloody
SEE SEE SEE FAM!!!!
Its in there!!!!
DAMN someone gonna STEAL this idea.
F*ck!! Disney owns BOTH CHARACTERS!!!
@largebillsonlyplease you gotta write this one QUICK!
I'm pissed as f* ck i just gave this jewel away.
Hahaha, come on fam we all family here
fam.. we got interlopers aplenty now up in here!
We gotta be careful dropping these jewels.
Marvel on Netflix: What Went Wrong?
By Abraham Riesman@abrahamjoseph
Not exactly the most ambitious crossover event in history. Photo: Sarah Shatz/Netflix
There was a brief, shining moment when it seemed like this whole Marvel–Netflix thing was gonna work out just fine. I can tell you exactly when that moment began: around 7 p.m. on October 11, 2015. Along with hundreds of others, I was crammed into the main auditorium at New York Comic Con, where a standing-room-only crowd had gathered to hear the latest about the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe on the world’s biggest streaming platform. The joint venture had already begun six months prior with the release of the somewhat-acclaimed first season of Daredevil, and the audience that night was amped up about the next outing, Jessica Jones. To our surprise, we were abruptly told that we’d be getting a surprise screening of that show’s very first episode. Squealing and cheering commenced. This was a crowd that expected great things.
And hoo boy, their expectations were met. That inaugural installment ofJessica Jones was a true humdinger. It was distinctive without being flashy, mature without being ponderous, ambitious without being self-satisfied, sexy without being exploitative, and just … good. I can’t tell you how much of a revelation a good superhero show was at that time. We were used to spandex outings that were inane, formulaic, and utterly uninterested in pushing a single envelope. But here was a tale that seemed like it was going to grapple with everything from PTSD to queerness and do it all with style. Showrunner Melissa Rosenberg and star Krysten Ritter genuinely seemed to be elevating the game. As soon as the screening was done, I rushed to the lobby to get reception and email my editor like an old-timey reporter clamoring for a pay phone just after getting a hot scoop. I have seen the future of superheroes, I thought, and it is Marvel Netflix.
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If it ever was the future, it is now the past. This week sees the barely ballyhooed release of the third and final season of Jessica Jones, which is itself the final season of Marvel’s four-year Netflix experiment. Its death has been agonizingly and humiliatingly gradual: Over the course of the past few months, each of the five ongoing series that made it up has been given the ax, one after another. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, The Punisher; their fans saw them all go the way of the dodo — without fanfare. It was all too clear that there wasn’t much advance warning for the creative teams, given that many of the shows ended without resolution. Even though Marvel Television’s corporate overlord, Disney, is launching its own streaming platform, the superhero programming there will be run by the movie folks at Marvel Studios, who don’t particularly get along with the TV crew, so it seems unlikely that any resurrections will be in the cards. The loose ends will probably forever dangle in the wind, reminding diehards to never love anything too much.
So, what the hell happened? As far as I can see, the enterprise was doomed by three factors, two of them creative and one of them entirely corporate.
For one thing, all the shows suffered from an acute case of Netflix bloat. With the exception of the one-off crossover series, The Defenders, and the second season of the widely derided Iron Fist, every season was 13 episodes, with each episode clocking in at about an hour. There was simply no good reason for these stories to run 13-odd hours each. And they were, for the most part, single stories of that length; the shows tended to eschew the idea of self-contained episodes, even in the case of Jessica Jones, where individual private-investigation cases would have been a natural fit to fill out the world and liven up the pace. There were B- and C-plots, but they, too, were stretched out to unreasonable lengths. This is, of course, not a problem unique to Marvel shows, as Netflix and other streamers tend to believe that a drama is only worthwhile if it feels interminable.
But it was especially irritating in the case of the Marvel–Netflix shows, because a viewer was likely comparing them, consciously or not, to other superhero offerings. Superhero movies, though often longer than they should be, have runtimes between two and three hours — more than enough of a span to tell an epic saga of good, evil, duty, and all the other familiar tropes. More important, these stories are all adapted from comic books, which have long been oriented toward brief, dense, punchy individual issues of about 22 pages each, typically ending on some kind of cliffhanger. The sloggy Netflix approach just didn’t sit well with the expectations we have for the genre and our attendant desire for super-heroic action and Manichean suspense. The creators and diehards may argue that these weren’t just superhero shows — they were inspired by neo-noir (Jessica Jones) or blaxploitation (Luke Cage) or kung-fu (Iron Fist) and so on — but come on, these were all stories based on the expectation of climactic action between the forces of light and darkness. Yet, over and over again, we had to see that gratification delayed beyond reason. You were never going to hold eyeballs very long with that kind of lukewarm storytelling.
If the shows struggled with format, so too did they suffer over formula. Quite simply, they rarely did anything audacious or iconoclastic. Sure, there were little exceptions, like the daring explorations of rape and trauma in the first season of Jessica Jones, the occasional interrogation of police violence and black respectability politics in Luke Cage (it’s still amazing that a Marvel property had liberal use of the N-word in it), and the criticism of the War on Terror in the first season of The Punisher. But even in those cases, the general emphasis was more often on boilerplate superhero-fiction tropes like the need for friendship, the question of whether killing is ever okay, and the insistence that one should never give up in the face of even the most impossible odds. We live in an era when we are saturated with such themes thanks to the preponderance of cape-and-cowl mishegoss on the big and small screens, so we were never given a great reason to especially care about these slight variations. To make matters worse, even though these stories were ostensibly set in the same New York City as the one we see in the MCU movies, we never got to spice things up with appearances from any of the film characters — or, conversely, to see the Netflix characters register any importance by appearing in the films. In a word: snore.
Nevertheless, the shows experienced a modicum of success (some more than others; Iron Fist always seemed DOA) and generated enough enthusiasm to justify multiple seasons. Daredevil fan-fiction exploded, critics swore up and down that The Punisher was pretty good, and you’ll be seeing Jessica Jones cosplayers at conventions for many years to come. And yet, perhaps these victories added up to the most fatal factor of them all: The shows became something of a victim of their own success. When the Marvel–Netflix collaboration was announced in November 2013, it was something of a revolutionary idea. The skyrocketing MCU brand had begun its forays into short-form serialization with ABC’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. that September, and Netflix had only just emerged on the scene with its first original series, House of Cards, nine months prior. The notion of these two newly successful firms joining forces was a bold step: Netflix could show off its original-content chops by hitching its wagon to the hottest brand at the box office, while Marvel could demonstrate that it was ready to take a leap into the still-fresh waters of streaming entertainment.
Trouble is, once both of them had won, they no longer needed each other. Netflix has, in just six short years, become one of the primary destinations for serialized original content in the known universe. Disney has seen its Marvel brand become a license to print money. But the ever-wily Disney suits realized they had enough cachet to pull off their own entrant into the streaming game, the soon-to-launch Disney+. Marvel’s Netflix shows had proven that streaming super-people could work as a concept, but why should the House of Mouse tolerate sharing the gains of their IP with a rival streamer? What’s more, Netflix has so much content that they don’t need a boost from anyone else’s brand anymore — and they similarly don’t have any desire to lend a hand to a corporation that’s about to become its biggest rival (a fact made all the more apparent by Disney’s recent decision to take a controlling stake in Hulu). Marvel Netflix was consigned to being the abandoned child from a marriage that fell apart. Future generations may find the very phrase “Marvel Netflix” to be an oxymoron, after the streaming wars really heat up.
Which brings us to Disney’s challenge in its post-Netflix reality. Within a few months, we’ll likely be seeing the inaugural MCU shows of Disney+, such as the untitled Loki solo series, Falcon and Winter Soldier, and the questionably titled WandaVision. (You’ll note that all of those shows star major characters from the film arm of the MCU. That’s because Marvel Studios will be managing all of the Marvel content streaming on Disney+.) Right now, it seems like a done deal that these series will attract subscribers, but it’s worth noting that Disney+ should learn from the collapse of Marvel’s Netflix project. The format has to lend itself to thrills, chills, and density. In a world of streaming-content saturation, even Marvel has to worry about losing people’s attention while they sit on the couch. (To be fair, they seem to be moving in the right direction when they do things like make these series attenuated in length or placed in unlikely settings.) In other words, formula has to take a back seat to innovation. If you can get the same ideas by firing up old MCU movies for a rewatch at the click of a button, why bother with inferior, lower-budget shows, especially if they don’t end up being consequential for the movies and vice versa?
But most importantly, the powers that be should remember that the tectonic plates are still shifting beneath their feet. After all, there was a time, not so long ago, when Marvel Netflix was the most bleeding-edge idea in the game. How quickly the heroes of tomorrow become yesterday’s news.
By Abraham Riesman@abrahamjoseph
Not exactly the most ambitious crossover event in history. Photo: Sarah Shatz/Netflix
There was a brief, shining moment when it seemed like this whole Marvel–Netflix thing was gonna work out just fine. I can tell you exactly when that moment began: around 7 p.m. on October 11, 2015. Along with hundreds of others, I was crammed into the main auditorium at New York Comic Con, where a standing-room-only crowd had gathered to hear the latest about the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe on the world’s biggest streaming platform. The joint venture had already begun six months prior with the release of the somewhat-acclaimed first season of Daredevil, and the audience that night was amped up about the next outing, Jessica Jones. To our surprise, we were abruptly told that we’d be getting a surprise screening of that show’s very first episode. Squealing and cheering commenced. This was a crowd that expected great things.
And hoo boy, their expectations were met. That inaugural installment ofJessica Jones was a true humdinger. It was distinctive without being flashy, mature without being ponderous, ambitious without being self-satisfied, sexy without being exploitative, and just … good. I can’t tell you how much of a revelation a good superhero show was at that time. We were used to spandex outings that were inane, formulaic, and utterly uninterested in pushing a single envelope. But here was a tale that seemed like it was going to grapple with everything from PTSD to queerness and do it all with style. Showrunner Melissa Rosenberg and star Krysten Ritter genuinely seemed to be elevating the game. As soon as the screening was done, I rushed to the lobby to get reception and email my editor like an old-timey reporter clamoring for a pay phone just after getting a hot scoop. I have seen the future of superheroes, I thought, and it is Marvel Netflix.
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If it ever was the future, it is now the past. This week sees the barely ballyhooed release of the third and final season of Jessica Jones, which is itself the final season of Marvel’s four-year Netflix experiment. Its death has been agonizingly and humiliatingly gradual: Over the course of the past few months, each of the five ongoing series that made it up has been given the ax, one after another. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, The Punisher; their fans saw them all go the way of the dodo — without fanfare. It was all too clear that there wasn’t much advance warning for the creative teams, given that many of the shows ended without resolution. Even though Marvel Television’s corporate overlord, Disney, is launching its own streaming platform, the superhero programming there will be run by the movie folks at Marvel Studios, who don’t particularly get along with the TV crew, so it seems unlikely that any resurrections will be in the cards. The loose ends will probably forever dangle in the wind, reminding diehards to never love anything too much.
So, what the hell happened? As far as I can see, the enterprise was doomed by three factors, two of them creative and one of them entirely corporate.
For one thing, all the shows suffered from an acute case of Netflix bloat. With the exception of the one-off crossover series, The Defenders, and the second season of the widely derided Iron Fist, every season was 13 episodes, with each episode clocking in at about an hour. There was simply no good reason for these stories to run 13-odd hours each. And they were, for the most part, single stories of that length; the shows tended to eschew the idea of self-contained episodes, even in the case of Jessica Jones, where individual private-investigation cases would have been a natural fit to fill out the world and liven up the pace. There were B- and C-plots, but they, too, were stretched out to unreasonable lengths. This is, of course, not a problem unique to Marvel shows, as Netflix and other streamers tend to believe that a drama is only worthwhile if it feels interminable.
But it was especially irritating in the case of the Marvel–Netflix shows, because a viewer was likely comparing them, consciously or not, to other superhero offerings. Superhero movies, though often longer than they should be, have runtimes between two and three hours — more than enough of a span to tell an epic saga of good, evil, duty, and all the other familiar tropes. More important, these stories are all adapted from comic books, which have long been oriented toward brief, dense, punchy individual issues of about 22 pages each, typically ending on some kind of cliffhanger. The sloggy Netflix approach just didn’t sit well with the expectations we have for the genre and our attendant desire for super-heroic action and Manichean suspense. The creators and diehards may argue that these weren’t just superhero shows — they were inspired by neo-noir (Jessica Jones) or blaxploitation (Luke Cage) or kung-fu (Iron Fist) and so on — but come on, these were all stories based on the expectation of climactic action between the forces of light and darkness. Yet, over and over again, we had to see that gratification delayed beyond reason. You were never going to hold eyeballs very long with that kind of lukewarm storytelling.
If the shows struggled with format, so too did they suffer over formula. Quite simply, they rarely did anything audacious or iconoclastic. Sure, there were little exceptions, like the daring explorations of rape and trauma in the first season of Jessica Jones, the occasional interrogation of police violence and black respectability politics in Luke Cage (it’s still amazing that a Marvel property had liberal use of the N-word in it), and the criticism of the War on Terror in the first season of The Punisher. But even in those cases, the general emphasis was more often on boilerplate superhero-fiction tropes like the need for friendship, the question of whether killing is ever okay, and the insistence that one should never give up in the face of even the most impossible odds. We live in an era when we are saturated with such themes thanks to the preponderance of cape-and-cowl mishegoss on the big and small screens, so we were never given a great reason to especially care about these slight variations. To make matters worse, even though these stories were ostensibly set in the same New York City as the one we see in the MCU movies, we never got to spice things up with appearances from any of the film characters — or, conversely, to see the Netflix characters register any importance by appearing in the films. In a word: snore.
Nevertheless, the shows experienced a modicum of success (some more than others; Iron Fist always seemed DOA) and generated enough enthusiasm to justify multiple seasons. Daredevil fan-fiction exploded, critics swore up and down that The Punisher was pretty good, and you’ll be seeing Jessica Jones cosplayers at conventions for many years to come. And yet, perhaps these victories added up to the most fatal factor of them all: The shows became something of a victim of their own success. When the Marvel–Netflix collaboration was announced in November 2013, it was something of a revolutionary idea. The skyrocketing MCU brand had begun its forays into short-form serialization with ABC’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. that September, and Netflix had only just emerged on the scene with its first original series, House of Cards, nine months prior. The notion of these two newly successful firms joining forces was a bold step: Netflix could show off its original-content chops by hitching its wagon to the hottest brand at the box office, while Marvel could demonstrate that it was ready to take a leap into the still-fresh waters of streaming entertainment.
Trouble is, once both of them had won, they no longer needed each other. Netflix has, in just six short years, become one of the primary destinations for serialized original content in the known universe. Disney has seen its Marvel brand become a license to print money. But the ever-wily Disney suits realized they had enough cachet to pull off their own entrant into the streaming game, the soon-to-launch Disney+. Marvel’s Netflix shows had proven that streaming super-people could work as a concept, but why should the House of Mouse tolerate sharing the gains of their IP with a rival streamer? What’s more, Netflix has so much content that they don’t need a boost from anyone else’s brand anymore — and they similarly don’t have any desire to lend a hand to a corporation that’s about to become its biggest rival (a fact made all the more apparent by Disney’s recent decision to take a controlling stake in Hulu). Marvel Netflix was consigned to being the abandoned child from a marriage that fell apart. Future generations may find the very phrase “Marvel Netflix” to be an oxymoron, after the streaming wars really heat up.
Which brings us to Disney’s challenge in its post-Netflix reality. Within a few months, we’ll likely be seeing the inaugural MCU shows of Disney+, such as the untitled Loki solo series, Falcon and Winter Soldier, and the questionably titled WandaVision. (You’ll note that all of those shows star major characters from the film arm of the MCU. That’s because Marvel Studios will be managing all of the Marvel content streaming on Disney+.) Right now, it seems like a done deal that these series will attract subscribers, but it’s worth noting that Disney+ should learn from the collapse of Marvel’s Netflix project. The format has to lend itself to thrills, chills, and density. In a world of streaming-content saturation, even Marvel has to worry about losing people’s attention while they sit on the couch. (To be fair, they seem to be moving in the right direction when they do things like make these series attenuated in length or placed in unlikely settings.) In other words, formula has to take a back seat to innovation. If you can get the same ideas by firing up old MCU movies for a rewatch at the click of a button, why bother with inferior, lower-budget shows, especially if they don’t end up being consequential for the movies and vice versa?
But most importantly, the powers that be should remember that the tectonic plates are still shifting beneath their feet. After all, there was a time, not so long ago, when Marvel Netflix was the most bleeding-edge idea in the game. How quickly the heroes of tomorrow become yesterday’s news.
Jon Bernthal Returning As The Punisher In Future MCU Movie
We Got This Covered can confirm that Jon Bernthal will indeed be returning as the Punisher in a future MCU movie, and we know which one.
wegotthiscovered.com
Jon Bernthal Returning As The Punisher In Future MCU Movie
We Got This Covered can confirm that Jon Bernthal will indeed be returning as the Punisher in a future MCU movie, and we know which one.
@ViCiouS
@fonzerrillii .
Dam.Jon Bernthal Returning As The Punisher In Future MCU Movie
We Got This Covered can confirm that Jon Bernthal will indeed be returning as the Punisher in a future MCU movie, and we know which one.
I'm sorry but they dropped the ball on that one... I don't know who could have been better off the top of my head so don't put me on the spot... but Mike Coulter in this role was TERRIBLE
I'm sorry but they dropped the ball on that one... I don't know who could have been better off the top of my head so don't put me on the spot... but Mike Coulter in this role was TERRIBLE
interesting
he didnt have the presence/natural charisma
but dude looked like a Luke Cage come to life
That's exactly it. He looked the part but man his on screen presence was lacking.
That one episode where he was supposedly doing NFL combine drills was the icing on the cake. He looked like the most unathletic black man on the face of the earth. It was unbearable. I couldn't even watch it.
Michael Jai White. Kidding.
I'm sorry but they dropped the ball on that one... I don't know who could have been better off the top of my head so don't put me on the spot... but Mike Coulter in this role was TERRIBLE
I thought his portrayal at the end of season 2 was interesting. The new look and attitude could have made it a better casting. I never had a problem with him, but it would be kind of hard to see someone else in the role now. Mother's Milk from The Boys maybe?
Jon Bernthal Returning As The Punisher In Future MCU Movie
We Got This Covered can confirm that Jon Bernthal will indeed be returning as the Punisher in a future MCU movie, and we know which one.
They might be replacing Hawkeye...
Damn he better hope those divorce allegations ain't true...
Anyway...
They need to give us a Daredevil and Punisher on the big screen.... MCU style...
Or have him shown up like in the comics as he was originally introduced...
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The Rock doesn't look anything like Luke Cage.
Henry Simmons might have been able to pull it off but he's already on Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.
For what its worth, I was not bothered by Micheal Coulter as a choice.
There have been a few different incarnations of Luke Cage in the comics. They went with the least popular one for some reason but at least we got one.
It would be cool if all of the Defenders got a cameo on the big screen.
Lazy Alonzo? I dunno, that's a strong maybe... as is Michael Jai White, but Jesus his acting skills SUCK.
I didn't necessarily have an issue with Coulter's acting, it's just he looked awkward as fuck doing anything physical. Throwing a punch, taking a punch, running, jumping... it all looked like he didn't do anything athletically ever in his life.
Those fight scenes with Bushmaster in season 2 were cringeworthy
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