Where Does Lebron Rank All-Time For You As Of Today?

[Better]

Lebron James: 27.2 points per game on 49.8% shooting

Larry Bird: 24.3 points per game on 49.6% shooting

Bird's average is the result of declining years as he's retired. Lebron has yet to start declining, so that average will not stay where it is. Furthermore, Bird easily played in a tougher defensive era. Bird had to see shot-blockers that Lebron flat out doesn't, and hand-checking would have certainly affected Lebron as it needs to gain momentum to drive to the basket, and a hand-check style would make it very difficult for someone who routinely needs to back up in order to gain sufficient momentum to blow by defenders. Lastly, Bird's shots were taken at a way higher degree of difficulty being primarily a perimeter scorer, and Lebron being an attack the basket type.

Most important, Bird had go-to moves. Just a more highly skilled player. Lebron gets those scoring numbers as long as teams give him those driving lanes. We all see the shit. We've been seeing it for years. You give Bird a jumper like they give Lebron, and you'd have 60 on your head.

 

[Spectrum]

Bird's average is the result of declining years as he's retired. Lebron has yet to start declining, so that average will not stay where it is. Furthermore, Bird easily played in a tougher defensive era. Bird had to see shot-blockers that Lebron flat out doesn't, and hand-checking would have certainly affected Lebron as it needs to gain momentum to drive to the basket, and a hand-check style would make it very difficult for someone who routinely needs to back up in order to gain sufficient momentum to blow by defenders. Lastly, Bird's shots were taken at a way higher degree of difficulty being primarily a perimeter scorer, and Lebron being an attack the basket type.

Most important, Bird had go-to moves. Just a more highly skilled player. Lebron gets those scoring numbers as long as teams give him those driving lanes. We all see the shit. We've been seeing it for years. You give Bird a jumper like they give Lebron, and you'd have 60 on your head.

You're trying to qualify the quantitative data that doesn't support your premise.

You said: " At the end of the day, the object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, and Bird is just better at doing that shit"

Clearly that isn't true. Just make a new argument. Your previous premise isn't true.

You should be saying that you just like the "way" Bird played offensively. However, he isn't better at scoring than Lebron. And time doesn't help. Lebron, for in instance, has seen an INCREASE in shooting percentage over the second half of his career so he's FG% is increasing, not decreasing.

 

[tallblacknyc]

Lebron James: 27.2 points per game on 49.8% shooting

Larry Bird: 24.3 points per game on 49.6% shooting

forgot his 10 rebs and 6 assist.. forgot to add he averaged a double double in 3 of his 5 final series..was .5 rebs and .3 assist away from averaging a triple double in the finals.. forgot to mention people questioning why he didn't win a finals mvp in his first outing when he averaged 15 rebs, 7 assist , and damn near 3 stls in that series..he led his team in rebs, assist, and stls..only moses had more rebs in that series cause he averaged 16 that series.. forgot to mention he beat moses in the finals, magic.reem, worthy, and hakeem..all 5 all time greats.. by the way mchale didn't even average 15 mins worth of playing time in birds first chip.. bird only 2 losses in the finals came from the showtime laker dynasty.. by the way he also had to face moses and dr j, the bad boys in the east during his chip runs.. i'll take the guy who averages 23 points 11 rebs 6 assist and 2 stls in the finals and shot over 50 percent..bird for the win

 

[Spectrum]

forgot his 10 rebs and 6 assist..

You guys struggle with reading comprehension. The OPs argument in that specific post was purely based on scoring so I posted the scoring data.

 

[Better]

Its kind of like I always felt, when it comes down to it, despite Steph Curry's insane season, it was easier to stop Curry than Kyrie. Teams just didn't employ the right strategy. The moment teams started running dude off the line, and pressuring him, he suddenly wasn't Curry.

Kyrie is a more skilled offensive player, Steph just has that one outrageous ability.

Same with Bird and Lebron. Lebron has the athletic advantage obviously ... and is going to be better going to the basket, but Bird has way more ways to score.

THIS is why I feel we play in one of the worst eras I've ever seen.

If I fucking know what it takes to take Lebron and Steph out of their limited offensive games, then there is now way these NBA coaches don't know. The moment the start employing the tactics I see as clear as day, those dudes aren't what they once were.

 

[Spectrum]

Kyrie is a more skilled offensive player, Steph just has that one outrageous ability.

Same with Bird and Lebron. Lebron has the athletic advantage obviously ... and is going to be better going to the basket, but Bird has way more ways to score.
.

This is a different argument.

Who was more dominant at their peak. Shaq or Hakeem? If you go on skill alone, Hakeem was the better NBA player. However, Shaq's run in his prime >> Hakeem's run. Shaq had some of most dominant playoff performances in NBA history. These are athletic competitions. These aren't skill competitions like 3 point shooting contests. You can't penalize players for being stronger and faster than other players. That's a part of the game.

 

[Better]

You're trying to qualify the quantitative data that doesn't support your premise.

You said: " At the end of the day, the object of the game is to put the ball in the basket, and Bird is just better at doing that shit"

Clearly that isn't true. Just make a new argument. Your previous premise isn't true.

You should be saying that you just like the "way" Bird played offensively. However, he isn't better at scoring than Lebron. And time doesn't help. Lebron, for in instance, has seen an INCREASE in shooting percentage over the second half of his career so he's FG% is increasing, not decreasing.

He is better, because he has more reliable ways of doing it.

You can stop Lebron way before you can stop Bird. It ain't even complicated on how to stop Lebron.

I mean, hell ... if teams will keep playing unintelligent defense against Lebron, and he doesn't have to face shot-blockers ... then sure it can look like he's better at it.

But, I'll take Bird, because no matter how you guard Bird, he has something else he can go to. Great post-game. Great mid-range. Great three-point. More crafty.

Are we going to act like Lebron doesn't often look lost if you don't give him the driving lanes?

 

[Spectrum]

He is better, because he has more reliable ways of doing it.

You can stop Lebron way before you can stop Bird. It ain't even complicated on how to stop Lebron.

If it's not that complicated, it would be done more often. Besides one series over his entire career (against Dallas), Lebron has never been stopped. And that was more of an alpha/beta issue with Wade than anything Dallas did (despite what Cuban promotes).

 

[Spectrum]

Are we going to act like Lebron doesn't often look lost if you don't give him the driving lanes?

That's like saying, what can Shaq dude if you keep him out of the paint! It doesn't matter if you never manage to keep him out of the fucking paint.

 

[Spectrum]

He is better, because he has more reliable ways of doing it.

You're trapped by your own argument then. Because if it's about "more reliable" ways then Lebron has WAY more reliable ways to impact a game than say Kobe for instance. Not only does Lebron score more points than Kobe, he's a better rebounder, passes, and defender. He's more "reliable" in more ways. So there shouldn't even be a discussion about who is the better player IF you really believe your argument. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't pick and choose when versatility matter. It either matters or it doesn't.

 

[tallblacknyc]

If it's not that complicated, it would be done more often. Besides one series over his entire career (against Dallas), Lebron has never been stopped. And that was more of an alpha/beta issue with Wade than anything Dallas did (despite what Cuban promotes).

actually he shot 35 percent vs the spurs in his first final run and only averaged 22 points..he's actually shot less than 43 percent like 3 or 4 finals.. lebron first 2 combine finals he only averaged like 19 points a game and shot like 36 percent..lost 8 out of 10 games..people try to forget his first 2 finals but i didn't..like i said bird for the win

 

[Spectrum]

actually he shot 35 percent vs the spurs in his first final run and only averaged 22 points.

You guys have selective memory or you've just not watched much ball. How about the 81 finals where Bird averaged 15 points per game on 40% shooting? And Bird was 25 (Lebron 21) and had multiple hall of famers on his squad. His second best player wasn't Mo Williams.

Yall should just say that you don't like the way Lebron players. That's all good..he's not a "graceful" offensive player. But you're going to end up losing statistical arguments when it comes to Lebron and that's matching him up with all-time greats who have finished their career and Lebron probably has 5-6 more very productive years left.

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

actually he shot 35 percent vs the spurs in his first final run and only averaged 22 points..he's actually shot less than 43 percent like 3 or 4 finals.. lebron first 2 combine finals he only averaged like 19 points a game and shot like 36 percent..lost 8 out of 10 games..people try to forget his first 2 finals but i didn't..like i said bird for the win

Consistency over spikes. Not saying who use better, but Bird CONSISTENTLY performed better in the finals than LeBron did. Also, numbers don't always tell the tale. A player can put up huge numbers but overall they are hollow and don't really impact the games flow or outcome. A player can score a lot but not impose his will on a games outcome. If that's the case players like Dominique Wilkins would be rated higher...

 

[tallblacknyc]

You guys have selective memory or you've just not watched much ball. How about the 81 finals where Bird averaged 15 points per game on 40% shooting? And Bird was 25 (Lebron 21) and had multiple hall of famers on his squad. His second best player wasn't Mo Williams.

Yall should just say that you don't like the way Lebron players. That's all good..he's not a "graceful" offensive player. But you're going to end up losing statistical arguments when it comes to Lebron and that's matching him up with all-time greats who have finished their career and Lebron probably has 5-6 more very productive years left.

u got selective vision.. cause i already mention that series where he also averaged 15 rebs, 7 assist, 2.7 stls and his team won..while mchale didn't even average 15 mins of playing time during that series

 

[tallblacknyc]

You guys have selective memory or you've just not watched much ball. How about the 81 finals where Bird averaged 15 points per game on 40% shooting? And Bird was 25 (Lebron 21) and had multiple hall of famers on his squad. His second best player wasn't Mo Williams.

Yall should just say that you don't like the way Lebron players. That's all good..he's not a "graceful" offensive player. But you're going to end up losing statistical arguments when it comes to Lebron and that's matching him up with all-time greats who have finished their career and Lebron probably has 5-6 more very productive years left.

they already posted kareem vs jordan.. truss me you don't want to post kareem vs lebron or jordan vs lebron

 

[Spectrum]

his team won..

Because he was on a team with multiple hall of famers. That says more about his team than him. He could afford to only score 15 points and game and his team was still good enough to win.

 

[Spectrum]

they already posted kareem vs jordan.. truss me you don't want to post kareem vs lebron or jordan vs lebron

Man. I've been posting stats on bgol before you even knew this place existed. Why are you talking about Kareem and Jordan when we're talking about Bird and Lebron?

 

[tallblacknyc]

they already posted kareem vs jordan.. truss me you don't want to post kareem vs lebron or jordan vs lebron

things like scoring titles, dpoy awards, chips, arent even in the same galaxy when comparing them... lebron has only led the league in one category in his career and that was points once that's it.. no stls, no rebs, no blks, no fg, nothing

 

[tallblacknyc]

Because he was on a team with multiple hall of famers. That says more about his team than him. He could afford to only score 15 points and game and his team was still good enough to win.

nobody on that team averaged 20 points that finals..go look for yourself..mchale got no burn , parish had 15 points, cedric had 19 that's it

 

[tallblacknyc]

Man. I've been posting stats on bgol before you even knew this place existed. Why are you talking about Kareem and Jordan when we're talking about Bird and Lebron?

lebron wasn.t playing back than.. i've been lurking on and off this board since 2000 get it rite

 

[Spectrum]

nobody on that team averaged 20 points that finals..go look for yourself..mchale got no burn , parish had 15 points, cedric had 19 that's it

He got outsourced by Cedric Maxwell. I don't need to go back and look at the stats (though I know them), I actually watched the series. Bird was average. It was a well-balanced team that was good enough to win with Bird being average.

Cedric Maxwell was the fucking MVP of that finals

 

[Spectrum]

lebron wasn.t playing back than.. i've been lurking on and off this board since 2000 get it rite

Like I said, I've been posted stats on bgol before you ever knew this place existed. You're not going to win an argument references stats with me. That's what I do.

So to stay on topic. Bird is another player who had a bad NBA Finals, but he was just on a team good enough to win with him being average. Bird is not the player to use a bad series for. Magic is not even the player to use a bad nba finals series for...but let's stay on topic and keep it about Bird.

Offensive, the argument for bird is that he's a more versatile scorer. Lebron is the better scorer but Bird is definitely the more skilled, versatile scorer. However, Lebron is definitely the more versatile player given what he can do at multiple positions on both sides of the floor.

I'm a huge Bird fan. I watched him crush my team several times, live at the Pontiac Silverdome when he was in his prime.

 

[tallblacknyc]

He got outsourced by Cedric Maxwell. I don't need to go back and look at the stats (though I know them), I actually watched the series. Bird was average. It was a well-balanced team that was good enough to win with Bird being average.

Cedric Maxwell was the fucking MVP of that finals

yeah and people don't think he deserved it especially when u look at bird stats

 

[tallblacknyc]

Like I said, I've been posted stats on bgol before you ever knew this place existed.

cool dosen't really mean shit if we're comparing lebron to all time greats.. how could you post stats about lebron if he was a freshman in highschool and jordan didn't even play for the wizards yet.. this thread about where do we place lebron or who do you think is better what does ur stat posting 2 decades have to do with anything??? ur also the guy that was trying to crown curry the best player best shooter ever in another thread and i personally said u'd have to give that guy 7 more yrs straight b4 u could even say something like that.. u try to insult me curry crashed and burn in the playoffs thread fail.. i told from jump in that thread of possible fail.. so while u post stats ur commentary ain't on point as stat posting

 

[Spectrum]

yeah and people don't think he deserved it especially when u look at bird stats

Bird was out of the running for MVP when he scored 8 points in game 3, 8 points in game 4 and then 12 in game 5. I'm telling you, he was average. I watched the series. Maxwell made the key plays.

Bird was the SEVENTH leading scoring (for Boston) in game 3 and his squad still won.

He wasn't even in the top 10 in scoring (for both teams) and his team still managed to win

Having a good team matters, a lot.

 

[Spectrum]

that was trying to crown curry the best player best shooter everg

Curry is the best shooter ever. That's not a debate. I think he's overrated as a player

You're talking about a different thread (the one where I also said Lebron was the league's best player). Man, there are vets that know me personally where we were laughing about that thread right before I put it up. That was bait. I think Curry is overrated. I thought Curry was over-rated the minute they had him as the 2nd best point guard of all time on that silly ESPN poll. That was a bait thread.

I almost dislike Curry as much as amajorfucup....but that's the topic of another thread.

 

[Better]

Lebron is just polarizing. Greatest evidence is the votes for top 5 is almost the same as top 10 and votes for GOAT is almost the same as top 15.

I just never saw in Lebron what other people saw.

I saw arguably the most athletically gifted players I've ever seen, basically exploit weaknesses in defenses that didn't exploit his weaknesses. When Rodman said Lebron would be average in the earlier days, I was almost with him on that, because at that time, I had never seen a perimeter player so dominant, have such glaring deficiencies. The average part is what I didn't agree with, but I don't think Lebron is 'King James' in a hand-checking era, and especially not one with the interior defense from back in the day.

I even recall Lebron being asked fan questions on NBATV, and a kid asked him what was his favorite go-to move .... dude said, 'Uh, I don't really have a go-to move."

The skill level is just not there. He too often lacks confidence in his jumper, which is why teams will often sag off of him and he just eats or starves depending upon whether teams left the lanes open, or if he can create transition baskets. Remember that long streak of sixty percent shooting he had? Look at the shot charts. Point blank range. They gave him the lane, and he ate.

He's ... frankly, like Westbrook. Not a lot of skill, but a freak athlete who finishes very damn well around the cup, but once defenses start playing intelligence defense, that lack of a polished skill-set starts haunting them.

That could never be the GOAT or top 5. Take someone like Olajuwon, all of the players in NBA run to him to learn his moves. Dude could shoot and his post-game is legendary. Lebron ain't a better scorer than him. Lebron is just fortunate to play in this weak ass era.

I remember a game where 34 year-old Kobe was guarding Lebron, and every time Lebron would take that step back to start his drive, Kobe would take a step up. Lebron was getting mad as shit, 'cause Kobe was taking away his drive. Dude ended up pushing Kobe on the ground out of anger.

Like I said man, the deficiencies are too glaring.

Wasn't Lebron shooting less than 30 percent from the perimeter in his all of his NBA Finals at some point? I vividly recall them saying that during one of those Spurs Finals while he was on the Heat. Less than 30 percent. Jesus Christ. Not from three, but the damn perimeter.

 

[AllUniverse17]

Easy criteria here.
If you don't have 4+ MVPs, you can't get in my top 5.
These 5 DOMINATED during their respective eras.
End of story.

Kareem - 6
Wilt - 4
Russell - 5
Jordan - 5
LeBron - 4

Interesting way to look at it. Downside is that MVPs are driven by media storylines. MJ should have more. LeBron should have more. Kobe should have more.

Also, Bird and Magic had to share those in the 80s.

 

[tallblacknyc]

Curry is the best shooter ever. That's not a debate. I think he's overrated as a player

You're talking about a different thread (the one where I also said Lebron was the league's best player). Man, there are vets that know me personally where we were laughing about that thread right before I put it up. That was bait. I think Curry is overrated. I thought Curry was over-rated the minute they had him as the 2nd best point guard of all time on that silly ESPN poll. That was a bait thread.

I almost dislike Curry as much as amajorfucup....but that's the topic of another thread.

ok lmao

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

I almost dislike Curry as much as amajorfucup....but that's the topic of another thread.

Just curious....Why?

 

[AllUniverse17]

Lebron is just polarizing. Greatest evidence is the votes for top 5 is almost the same as top 10 and votes for GOAT is almost the same as top 15.

I just never saw in Lebron what other people saw.

I saw arguably the most athletically gifted players I've ever seen, basically exploit weaknesses in defenses that didn't exploit his weaknesses. When Rodman said Lebron would be average in the earlier days, I was almost with him on that, because at that time, I had never seen a perimeter player so dominant, have such glaring deficiencies. The average part is what I didn't agree with, but I don't think Lebron is 'King James' in a hand-checking era, and especially not one with the interior defense from back in the day.

I even recall Lebron being asked fan questions on NBATV, and a kid asked him what was his favorite go-to move .... dude said, 'Uh, I don't really have a go-to move."

The skill level is just not there. He too often lacks confidence in his jumper, which is why teams will often sag off of him and he just eats or starves depending upon whether teams left the lanes open, or if he can create transition baskets. Remember that long streak of sixty percent shooting he had? Look at the shot charts. Point blank range. They gave him the lane, and he ate.

He's ... frankly, like Westbrook. Not a lot of skill, but a freak athlete who finishes very damn well around the cup, but once defenses start playing intelligence defense, that lack of a polished skill-set starts haunting them.

That could never be the GOAT or top 5. Take someone like Olajuwon, all of the players in NBA run to him to learn his moves. Dude could shoot and his post-game is legendary. Lebron ain't a better scorer than him. Lebron is just fortunate to play in this weak ass era.

I remember a game where 34 year-old Kobe was guarding Lebron, and every time Lebron would take that step back to start his drive, Kobe would take a step up. Lebron was getting mad as shit, 'cause Kobe was taking away his drive. Dude ended up pushing Kobe on the ground out of anger.

Like I said man, the deficiencies are too glaring.

Wasn't Lebron shooting less than 30 percent from the perimeter in his all of his NBA Finals at some point? I vividly recall them saying that during one of those Spurs Finals while he was on the Heat. Less than 30 percent. Jesus Christ. Not from three, but the damn perimeter.

Lets look at the skills argument for a minute.

Take someone super athletic like a Igudoala. Why cant he produce like James despite being up there athletically?

Here are the skills i think you maybe dont see as skills.

Handle the ball
Vision to pass
Vision to drive
Drive with either hand
Finish with either hand
Pass with either hand
Pass out of drives
Finish with the contact
...

Thats just off the top of my head. Those are things you actually have to practice, skills that are developped, because simply being athletic doesnt give you those things.

James does have major defeciencies like outside shooting consistency and bad footwork. In no way am I saying he is perfect. I dont think anyone is saying that. But you seem to want to take away from his greatness because of the fact that he is athletically gifted.

 

[AllUniverse17]

Bird was out of the running for MVP when he scored 8 points in game 3, 8 points in game 4 and then 12 in game 5. I'm telling you, he was average. I watched the series. Maxwell made the key plays.

Bird was the SEVENTH leading scoring (for Boston) in game 3 and his squad still won.

He wasn't even in the top 10 in scoring (for both teams) and his team still managed to win

Having a good team matters, a lot.

Ouch.

Again, one of those, if LeBron had done that...

 

[shaddyvillethug]

Eewwll owning this nigga tremendously

Like its Mike Tyson fighting Gary coleman

 

[AllUniverse17]

things like scoring titles, dpoy awards, chips, arent even in the same galaxy when comparing them... lebron has only led the league in one category in his career and that was points once that's it.. no stls, no rebs, no blks, no fg, nothing

Did Bird ever lead the league in anything?

 

[tallblacknyc]

Did Bird ever lead the league in anything?

jordan did and kareem did

i think bird led in free throws or 3 point percentage other than that don't think nonthing