changed directions?
everybody in here (especially those that disagree) know my position.
how could i have changed directions?
just alleged "dudes" with hurt feelings over stringer bell complaining.
Still not gonna answer, huh
** The HBO Series "The Wire" Question & Answer Thread **
- Thread starter CoTtOnMoUf
- Start date
Still not gonna answer, huh
string didn't sell out the crew for short term game.
1. he had to deal with someone who had a better product.
2. the barksdales lost their primary real estate (the towers) to development and they lost their best connections. there was no other play to make.
3. the co-op actually worked pretty well. most of the dealers were down with the idea and it was stable enough..so much so that it survived after stringer was killed and all the way up until marlo disbanded it himself. Then his demand for 10 million for the greek connect forced them to reunite the co-op to get it.
So the concept worked.
1. he didn't HAVE to. he CHOSE to. unilaterally, and against the wishes of avon barksdale. he didn't wait, and sold out to the largest competitor. not in any way a wise choice.
2. the towers came down after the deal.
3. your view on the co-op is a half-full perspective. the co-op served up everyone on a platter to marlo, and provided marlo the means to take over. an utter failure and lack of foresight.
Show me the episode where avon said wait till I get out and deal with shit? Avon was in jail and telling string about the various connects he had but they all left him once word got around that his organization was sloppy. They were losing customers and power on the street with the shitty product they had. As string said having the prime real estate doesn't mean shit if you have inferior product to sell out of them.
The towers coming down period was a major blow to the crew's strength. Most of Barksdale muscle on the street was due to having a best dealing real estate on the west side, losing it halved their strength. Its a major reason why marlo was able to compete war chest for war chest.
Marlo was just vicious and more aggressive but only on the west side, he never made an overt move on east side dealers territory. He just positioned himself up as the supplier. He dismantled the co-op but he didn't rule all of Baltimore.
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R.I.P. Donnie Andrews aka The real Omar Little
R.I.P. Donnie Andrews aka The real Omar Little
that's why he called the brother in.
and that's why string tried to get rid of the brother. so that there weren't any other options left. and he succeeded.
that and stringer didn't care about corners.
only because he didn't want to period. that's the only reason. he could have, he did everything. all those dealers were scared of him he secured the connect, he got out of jail free, he killed prop joe. what was stopping him? absolutely nothing.
I just looked at those episodes in season 2 where avon was in jail and string was making moves...one of the things about the Wire is that it sometimes mixed fantastic elements in with the gritty realistic portrayals. Brother mouzone was one of those fantastic elements. The realistic gritty portrayal was the head of the barksdale gang was locked up, their connects were dropping off and the weak drugs they were selling was losing customers and muscle. Stringer had to make a deal to save the crew. Because theyre selling weak shit and don't have the muscle to hold down the corners..thats real. Avon calling in ONE MAN from NY to hold the towers is fantastic bullshit.
In any case avon never did secure another connection/supplier even after coming out of jail. As far as stringer and the corners, he was tryng to evolve the game and thats the crux of this debate.
Was Stringer's plan to change the game a good idea or bad one?
Stringer was number #2 for a reason
He should have been in the yard selling with Poot
Clay setting his ass up was priceless
Nigga got emotional talkin bout he want to put a hit out on a sitting Senator
Avon was number one because it was the family business. Avon got to be number one because of nepotism, so don't act like Avon earned it with his brilliance and he worked his way up from being Bodie or WeeBay. Which is why I think Stringer never liked D'Angelo and wanted to keep him out of the towers at the bottom, so Dee would have been less likely to jump him if anything happen to Avon. Dee would have run things with his mother.
I TRIED to stay out but this thread was CALLING ME back in, lol!!!
I made this SAME point several pages ago when I was trying to illustrate to cranrab that the writers went out of their way to change dynamics to create new situations, this was one so that we the viewers could see the transformation of Stringer and what would eventually lead to his death.
cranrab pointed out that Stringer said to D'Angelo in Season 1 that if the product is good it sells, if the product is weak you just sell TWICE as much but that the product will ALWAYS make money, the writers then proceeded to go out of their way to change this and we saw it illustrated step by step, from the Barksdale crew losing their connect to the new stuff being such garbage that @ the house where they stepped on the product the guy specifically tells Stringer that the stuff was garbage yet Stringer tells him to step on it anyway, which results in the next thing we see, drugged out people actually walking away from Barksdale crew members and traveling across the parkway to buy from Prop Joe, one guy even getting beat up for his troubles, and most significantly of all, Bodie having to lay off both workers and muscle because money wasn't coming in!
Remember that Brother was brought in based on non-information, all Avon knew was that Prop Joe's people were selling in "his" Towers, but nothing of the fact that it was Stringer who allowed this.
Avon was a boss, bosses don't wanna hear "Profits are down because...", Stringer tried telling Avon this several times to no avail.
Stringer actually making more money from a situation that was forced upon him was actually an unforeseen byproduct, while it is one that most businessmen dream of, business owners, especially ones whose name IS the business, are NOT trying to hear this, Avon & Marlo follow this doctrine, to both it was "about their corners!"
End result, cranrab is 100% WRONG in this situation, Stringer HAD to make that move, the icing on that cake comes later when Avon was getting ready for war and thinking about Stringer's death at the safe house HE HIMSELF admits that he made a mistake in that situation!!!
I will also once again point out that Stringer actually made NO MISTAKES in Season 1, even though he accepted the blame for the money both he and Avon acknowledged that once Griggs was in the car that the hit should've been called off, since they burned the money it could not be traced to them, it was evidence ALREADY GATHERED that lead to Avon's arrest NOT the hit itself!
And, as pointed out by a few, cranrab has STILL not answered the fact that it was his own bragging that led to not only him having to have Wee-Bay kill the girl because she was "out of hand", but this did indeed result in the police finding out about his various fronts, cranrab has tried to point to Stringer's "foolishness" in putting the condo and a vehicle in Avon's name as folly yet neither of these either lead to Avon's downfall nor was even mentioned as the focus of any sort of investigation.
What actually brought Avon down was something the police DID NOT HAVE @ the beginning of "The Wire", an actual wire in Avon's office @ Orlando's, however if this were put in place from the beginning of the show, THERE IS NO SHOW!!!
Just like the Towers, the Barksdale drug trade would have ceased to exist if Stringer didn't make that move, dudes were selling Yugos in what had become a Mercedes Benz world!
Avon, being in jail, couldn't see what was happening in real time, by the time Stringer made the deal with Prop Joe it was no longer an option, it was a necessity.
Stringer's "failures" were BOTH with Avon, that he DID NOT convince him that switching to Prop Joe's product had become a necessity, and that he didn't tell Avon about the deal he made with him.
His ultimate stupidity, which lead DIRECTLY to his downfall, was trying to keep something from Avon that Avon would've found out about anyway!!!
Stringer's mistake was thinking the cops would let Orlando walk into a crooked drug deal with a gang of money without protection from the cops.
Stringer had to have known it was a police set-up beforehand, so why was he surprised that the money could be marked if it was police money? And if he didn't know it was a police set-up beforehand, then that's another mistake.
I'm guessing it was Avon's plan to have Orlando killed, and it was Stringer's idea to take the cash too.
Stringer had to have known it was a police set-up beforehand, so why was he surprised that the money could be marked if it was police money? And if he didn't know it was a police set-up beforehand, then that's another mistake.
I'm guessing it was Avon's plan to have Orlando killed, and it was Stringer's idea to take the cash too.
Its a rare time where nepotism was the right choice. he was built for the business, he was groomed since youth. Shit the only reason Stringer was #2 is because he happen to be friends with Avon growing up so let's not act like he worked his way up through the ranks either.
This is true, but both Avon and Stringer were flawed.
I'm not sure why some of you think Avon was this great leader.
You underestimate the rep that the brother carried.
When Joe found out the brother was handling the muscle what did he say?
coming out of jail the deal was done, why would he need to secure another connection?
And fuck that ole evolve the game shit.
Evolving the game is what gets you caught. They followed the money, and it led them to all of their enterprises.
They followed the money to clay davis and all of that shit all the donations and stuff they contributed.
Should have kept it simple.
Copy place
The club
Funeral Home.
You can wash a LOT of money through those 3 and still come out on top.
Trying to build entire condos and shit and entire waterfront properties? And then not running it past your lawyer who could have saved you a lot of wasted time and money?
Stringer was caught
but was killed before he got caught
AND he gave up Avon for NO REASON other than he ain't trying to do what he trying to do.
Honestly it comes down to, who did they (his workers) respect.
They listened to string because avon cosigned him and they knew they'd have to answer to avon if they didn't.
Wehn avon went down string was #1 and they listened cause they knew if they didn't when Avon came home it'd be curtains.
When all was lost, dudes weren't reminiscing over Stringer..
When stringer came in talking about hitting clay, Slim charles looked at Avon to see if it was ok right?
BASICALLY
talking about stringer made no mistakes in season 1???
Orlando was probably one of the biggest mistakes of their entire run....
it brought the heat DOWN on them
and they NEVER let it go after the fact.
and when he told Avon about the whole thing what did Avon say?
Cause Avon knew and understood "The Game" and the organization was far better off under his leadership...
I don't know why people thing marlo was such a great leader...viciousness and luck were the ONLY two things that kept him out of jail.
but thats the fantastic element I was talking about. mouzone shot cheese then sat out there by himself on a park bench reading..wide open. In a world of drive bys and niggas walking up on anyone randomly shooting thats how michael was initiated..thats how omar got killed..hell thats how omar shot mouzone himself.
Rep or not it only takes one bullet.
Avon was against dealing with prop joe period.. remember later in the show he expressed how he felt about east side niggas. Securing his own supply connection would have stopped all that co-op talk as well. Either it was a flaw in the writing (in that they just dropped the subject) or avon COULDN'T find another supplier with high grade shit.
remember Avon himself was caught doing exactly that before the co-op and everything.
it wouldn't have mattered..the longer your in the game without real juice and connections (ie political connects) youre chances of getting caught only get higher.
How do you know this
His time on top was limited.
You got to see more leadership from Prop Joe, Stringer and Marlo because they were out.
My take is Avon grew up in to a fully functional operation. Stringer had to go to Prop Joe, because the Atlanta operation that was back up to the Dominicans in New York was bullshit.
And people aren't going to mention Avon killing witnesses and shit, which is what got the police on them in the first place...not Orlando.
What about Avon and his belief in D'Angelo?
Thats a pretty good interpretation. Because in the end ...
Avon was about power & Stringer was about money.
Cats like Avon always get murdered, or snitched out on conspiracy because its hard to negotiate with power hungry dudes that aint afraid to kill.
Numerous references in the the series by Stringer & Prop Joe about players who ran big organizations but people wouldnt even know what they like. Quiet money makers over famous bosses.
They wrote it in the fear or love fashion. And killed Prop in the end & Stringer for effect. Those are the type cats that usually survive the game though. Slick & quiet.
And they left another war first killer Marlo. Standing in the end. They left the ruthless standing. The Avons & Marlo's of the world flare up & flame out, they dont survive.
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sorry, no.
people that think stringer bell HAD to make a move are short sighted, much like people who take their own lives. they are unable to see (or think of) any alternate solutions.
too bad. you may be an otherwise fairly bright individual, but you've chosen to have a blind spot. unfortunate.
even if one takes the logical extension of your argument (that the deal with prop joe was a good one), what is the net effect when the towers come down?
you can't see it, so no point for me to continue. but others might.
more poor logic and reasoning from a confused mind.
1st, why would you feel the need to limit examination of stringer bell to season 1? that's a desperate and feeble move. we're all grown individuals (i would hope) here, so why the fragmented view? to save face on behalf of stringer bell?
second, why would i have to address what mistakes avon barksdale made?
in this thread, i have already acknowledged that avon barksdale made mistakes.
your deflection reveals the juvenile thought process some of you cling to:
IF cranrab doesn't like stringer bell, THEN cranrab must like avon barksdale.
false.
stringer bell was not as competent as avon barksdale.
true.
This I agree with.
If Avon didn't do what he did with Prop Joe they would have lost the towers.
They were cutting shit with shit with the Atlanta connect, and were paying higher prices.
Like how they were saying a lot of the fiends were going from the west to eastside.
They would have lost the towers, because if dudes aren't getting money they're going elsewhere also and other crews would move in when they had less muscle(Marlo). Marlo couldn't have fucked with the Barksdales in Season One.
So did Stringer have another option?
sorry, no.
people that think stringer bell HAD to make a move are short sighted, much like people who take their own lives. they are unable to see (or think of) any alternate solutions.
too bad. you may be an otherwise fairly bright individual, but you've chosen to have a blind spot. unfortunate.
even if one takes the logical extension of your argument (that the deal with prop joe was a good one), what is the net effect when the towers come down?
you can't see it, so no point for me to continue. but others might.
more poor logic and reasoning from a confused mind.
1st, why would you feel the need to limit examination of stringer bell to season 1? that's a desperate and feeble move. we're all grown individuals (i would hope) here, so why the fragmented view? to save face on behalf of stringer bell?
second, why would i have to address what mistakes avon barksdale made?
in this thread, i have already acknowledged that avon barksdale made mistakes.
your deflection reveals the juvenile thought process some of you cling to:
IF cranrab doesn't like stringer bell, THEN cranrab must like avon barksdale.
false.
stringer bell was not as competent as avon barksdale.
true.
all of that doesn't matter because Avon was able to secure another supplier on his own. He went thru ALL of his connections and they ALL fell thru.
i presume you meant stringer bell.
the avon barksdale organization was clearly faced with an obstacle. everyone in here sees it. inferior product and dwindling client base.
the question posed by TMM was whether or not stringer bell's expedient choice to strike a deal with prop joe was a good one.
it was not.
there are always options. nervous bitches make stupid moves when pressure is applied.
you can also see who the stringer bell fanboys are based on their responses. pretending as though stringer bell entered into the pact with prop joe solely based on saving the enterprise.
He gave up Avon, because he wanted to handle shit like a legit businessman and he saw that Avon wasn't going to give up that gangsta shit like worrying about those damn corners. He was trying to tell the nigga that they had real property now and they could move on, but Avon wasn't comfortable with that shit, the same way Marlo was uncomfortable in the last episode, when Levy was introducing him around to the who's who and Marlo said fuck that shit and went back to the hood and slapped a nigga. String couldn't see any other way, but to cut Avon loose. But both String and Avon were kind of right. They should have met in the middle. One of the funniest scenes in the show to me was when String found out he was played and wanted to hit Clay Davis and Avon said "I think big man gone have to sit this one out Boss" "They saw your ghetto ass coming from miles away nigga" You need a day of the Jackal type nigga for this shit.
Remember Stringers quote to Bodie about showing Flex. Avon showed none.
like i said
for no damn reason
they had all of stringer's activities they had him cold they had him with everything they were coming to arrest him and lock him up remember?
like i said
for nothing.
cause he ain't trying to do what you want him to do? that's some mark shit.
avon is the only reason stringer was in a position to even try some of the shit he tried. and you sell him out? lol
man
i presume you meant stringer bell.
the avon barksdale organization was clearly faced with an obstacle. everyone in here sees it. inferior product and dwindling client base.
the question posed by TMM was whether or not stringer bell's expedient choice to strike a deal with prop joe was a good one.
it was not.
there are always options. nervous bitches make stupid moves when pressure is applied.
you can also see who the stringer bell fanboys are based on their responses. pretending as though stringer bell entered into the pact with prop joe solely based on saving the enterprise.
Stringer was highlighted to show he was a number 2. An operations guy, a COO & not a CEO. He became disloyal once he got in the drivers seat for awhile. Instituted changes in the oraganization that fit his leadership qualities and goals.
Its summary was all smart guys arent good leaders. He had a role to play & came out of it. Once he got a taste of the big chair.
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To me it doesn't make a difference if it was a good deal or a bad deal. I think they could have just cut Joe in for the time being and then once they can get product from somewhere else, they change up. Avon had a real dislike for the other side though. From basketball to dope, he was a set claiming muthafucka...I think he could have calmed down with some of that shit for business sake.
avon barksdale may have been schooled in a fully functional operation, but he made his own.
recall the timeline when the series takes off.
they tell you how long avon barksdale took over and controlled the tower operations.
you may need to rewatch season one, because it was d'angelo's murder case that was the straw that broke the camel's back, not a murder case involving avon.
also, it was stringer bell's hubris in the courtroom that stoked mcnulty's ire.