Social Media Debate: When experts have to interact with the public who THINKS it knows better (is society getting dumber?)

[playahaitian]

Ok another person dropped this to me off the board..

TV is a contributing factor

Shows like law & order and CSI actually effected jury selection and verdicts.

People got unrealistic expectations on evidence and procedures

And came in thinking they KNEW MORE than testifying on the stand

Medical and lawyer shows have existed FOREVER

but only THIS generation for some reason took that as some form of education!

 

[ShortyCumStain]

 

[playahaitian]

And fox news and espn too

Fox claims to be a legit journalistic outlet

Till they exposed.

Same with ESPN

they are REAL news till they not.

So the public is confused

Who can you trust

Is it trusted sourced knowledge news

Or

Entertainment?

So now the sceptics are experts based on their on "research "

 

[Darrkman]

I worked in IT at Ogilvy a long time ago. In fact I was at Ogilvy when 911 happened.

Ahhhh back when they were at Worldwide Plaza. I know the agency well when it was Ogilvy and when it became Mindshare.

 

[playahaitian]

based on another thread I see this one is more relevant each and every day.

I think @4 Dimensional is right...

its not only the LACK of knowledge

It is the lack or inability or just unwillingness to ASK proper questions.

EVEN TO THEMSELVES.

We have people starting debates DEVOID of ANY facts

none...

How the f*ck do you RESPOND to that.

The earth is flat.

Well he have satellite photos that prove otherwise.

But it just doesn't feel right it doesn't make sense I saw a picture online...

WTF?

And this is not children...

that is the WORST.

I have noticed elementary school children?
DO NOT DO THIS...

MOST are thirsty for knowledge and event though the questions tend to be a little more "LARGE" they still are SEEKING knowledge.

But we got ADULTS and high school and college kids defending their position with it doesn't FEEL right!

 

[playahaitian]

@largebillsonlyplease @therealjondoe
@ViCiouS @woodchuck @4 Dimensional

I wanted to ask it f this toopic fits in music?

Cause it so damn subjective.

As producers and writers etc...

So feel this generation (lets talk hip hop) doesn't APPRECIATE the SCIENCE behind rap music?

When I was coming up?

Like EVERYONE I TRIED to rap

then I hear LL, Q-Tip, Rakim, Kane, Pos and Ice Cube

and I realized that its an art to this.

I have argued that Biggie and Jay saying they don;t WRITE was the WORST thing ever in hip hop

because I think it created a generation of rappers who thought whatever gibberish they spouted...was golden.

I understand styles come and go...

and now its about the "wave"...and the FEEL

but can the OVERALL quality of MC ing have deteriorated to the point were basically EVERY FAN genuinely BELIEVES they can rap?

Was Frooty Loops the worst thing because it made the production process MORE accessible

CD turntables and mp3s allowed ANYONE to act like they were a DJ

could the TECHNOLOGY and ACCESSIBLY of hip hop

lead to the slow destruction of it?

EVERYONE thinks they are a rap critic (I feel liek back in the day WE did too but it doesn't FEEL the same)

kids review an ENTIRE album (which is now like 4 tracks) in an hour and post a YouTube reaction.

Doesn't that HURT the longevity and impact of the overall product?

 

[largebillsonlyplease]

@largebillsonlyplease @therealjondoe
@ViCiouS @woodchuck @4 Dimensional

I wanted to ask it f this toopic fits in music?

Cause it so damn subjective.

As producers and writers etc...

So feel this generation (lets talk hip hop) doesn't APPRECIATE the SCIENCE behind rap music?

When I was coming up?

Like EVERYONE I TRIED to rap

then I hear LL, Q-Tip, Rakim, Kane, Pos and Ice Cube

and I realized that its an art to this.

I have argued that Biggie and Jay saying they don;t WRITE was the WORST thing ever in hip hop

because I think it created a generation of rappers who thought whatever gibberish they spouted...was golden.

I understand styles come and go...

and now its about the "wave"...and the FEEL

but can the OVERALL quality of MC ing have deteriorated to the point were basically EVERY FAN genuinely BELIEVES they can rap?

Was Frooty Loops the worst thing because it made the production process MORE accessible

CD turntables and mp3s allowed ANYONE to act like they were a DJ

could the TECHNOLOGY and ACCESSIBLY of hip hop

lead to the slow destruction of it?

EVERYONE thinks they are a rap critic (I feel liek back in the day WE did too but it doesn't FEEL the same)

kids review an ENTIRE album (which is now like 4 tracks) in an hour and post a YouTube reaction.

Doesn't that HURT the longevity and impact of the overall product?

No.
I think rap has become inclusive so it includes ppl who are trash but also it let's ppl with talent who didn't have the means to make music make beautiful music.

And we're not gonna call it all gibberish though
The feel and groove has always been a thing
James brown made an entire song that said I got the feeling. Baby baby I got the feeling.

Like that's it.

So yeah

 

[playahaitian]

No.
I think rap has become inclusive so it includes ppl who are trash but also it let's ppl with talent who didn't have the means to make music make beautiful music.

And we're not gonna call it all gibberish though
The feel and groove has always been a thing
James brown made an entire song that said I got the feeling. Baby baby I got the feeling.

Like that's it.

So yeah

Of course what IS Black music particularly without that groove.

And since its POP MUSIC

POPULAR music does that mean its for everyone to critique?

Can a musical form ever be TOO ACCESSIBLE?

then conversely...

And I hate to say this

but I think there WAS a time where (if you want to call it culture vulture - ism)

that rap was becoming OVER INTELLECTUALIZED to a degree....

which I was always TORN about

I appreciate the scientific poetry

iambic pentameter rhyme schemes patterns grammar simile metaphor etc etc...

but can THAT kind of EXPERTISE

ESPECIALLY presented and decided upon by those OUTSIDE the culture

have a NEGATIVE effect on the overall musical result?

 

[playahaitian]

sidebar...

I always felt that when RZA began STUDYING formal musical training etc?

His sound suffered

it didn't ELEVATE it

its almost like MORE formal knowledge

made him LOSE that grimy street genius sound wu-tang were famous for.

 

[ViCiouS]

sidebar...

I always felt that when RZA began STUDYING formal musical training etc?

His sound suffered

it didn't ELEVATE it

its almost like MORE formal knowledge

made him LOSE that grimy street genius sound wu-tang were famous for.

in his early sound he was leaning / borrowing from the genius of other musicians to create
that sound

After learning music theory he relied more on his own talent alone

There are many reasons funky drummer break beat is just plain funkier than anything Kanye or Pharell can make

Or why Timbaland etc can spend years chasing the sound of the Wrecking Crew

 

[playahaitian]

in his early sound he was leaning / borrowing from the genius of other musicians to create
that sound

After learning music theory he relied more on his own talent alone

There are many reasons funky drummer break beat is just plain funkier than anything Kanye or Pharell can make

Or why Timbaland etc can spend years chasing the sound of the Wrecking Crew

do you consider

god given talent, hard work, expertise, genius?

 

[ViCiouS]

do you consider

god given talent, hard work, expertise, genius?

its part of it...
in the examples I gave above it was t6he collaboration of very talented to genius level musicians and sometimes engineers that birthed and captured those performances

So its very difficult to recreate the "feel" of some recordings - hiphop wasn't only the mc and lyrics - its equally the feeling of those old recordings that were sampled

 

[playahaitian]

its part of it...
in the examples I gave above it was t6he collaboration of very talented to genius level musicians and sometimes engineers that birthed and captured those performances

So its very difficult to recreate the "feel" of some recordings - hiphop wasn't only the mc and lyrics - its equally the feeling of those old recordings that were sampled

Do you feel like veteran producers and even djs feel TODAY'S crop have it too easy?


we ALL remember the war stories of carrying crates, dangerous clubs, money for turn tables and records studio time recording in a closet..

on and on.

Does having that "suffering" EFFECT the music?

And does this current generation APPARENT LACK OF APPRECIATION for that struggle...

delegitimize their RIGHT to the music...

or to even ability to critique it?

Isn't a EXPERT somewhat of a HISTORIAN too?

You don't have to LIKE Pete Rock to APPRECIATE the samples and the horns, or Preemo's loops?

And does a LACK of appreciation make you NOT an expert?

 

[ViCiouS]

Do you feel like veteran producers and even djs feel TODAY'S crop have it too easy?


we ALL remember the war stories of carrying crates, dangerous clubs, money for turn tables and records studio time recording in a closet..

on and on.

Does having that "suffering" EFFECT the music?

And does this current generation APPARENT LACK OF APPRECIATION for that struggle...

delegitimize their RIGHT to the music...

or to even ability to critique it?

Isn't a EXPERT somewhat of a HISTORIAN too?

You don't have to LIKE Pete Rock to APPRECIATE the samples and the horns, or Preemo's loops?

And does a LACK of appreciation make you NOT an expert?

none of that was suffering
touring pre ww2 was suffering - doing the chitlin circuit etc...

that feel has more to do with technology limitations and habits born out of countless live shows
having bands that responds anticipates dancing crowds

debuting music live before recording it etc...

today there is less collaboration less feed back during the creation process

You have to like MUSIC to really appreciate the samples used by Preemo Rock QTip etc

any lack of appreciation just makes one an expert in something else

 

[KunningLinguist]

The answer is simple.

Don't participate in these arguments.

I've come to the conclusion that people love negativity so I'm no longer participating in back and forth arguments.

 

[playahaitian]

none of that was suffering
touring pre ww2 was suffering - doing the chitlin circuit etc...

that feel has more to do with technology limitations and habits born out of countless live shows
having bands that responds anticipates dancing crowds

debuting music live before recording it etc...

today there is less collaboration less feed back during the creation process

You have to like MUSIC to really appreciate the samples used by Preemo Rock QTip etc

any lack of appreciation just makes one an expert in something else

 

[playahaitian]

The answer is simple.

Don't participate in these arguments.

I've come to the conclusion that people love negativity so I'm no longer participating in back and forth arguments.

but I think there is a DIFFERENCE between arguments, discourse and debate.

 

[KunningLinguist]

but I think there is a DIFFERENCE between arguments, discourse and debate.

perhaps....

but it doesnt make a difference to me

has anyone ever said 'youre right, im wrong' during a social media argument?

you can probably count those on one hand....

everyone is right or believe they are....so whats the point in going back and forth?

 

[playahaitian]

perhaps....

but it doesnt make a difference to me

has anyone ever said 'youre right, im wrong' during a social media argument?

you can probably count those on one hand....

everyone is right or believe they are....so whats the point in going back and forth?

damn I say that sh*t all the time on here...



but I have a VERY select circle I REALLY engage with.

 

[largebillsonlyplease]

Of course what IS Black music particularly without that groove.

And since its POP MUSIC

POPULAR music does that mean its for everyone to critique?

Can a musical form ever be TOO ACCESSIBLE?

then conversely...

And I hate to say this

but I think there WAS a time where (if you want to call it culture vulture - ism)

that rap was becoming OVER INTELLECTUALIZED to a degree....

which I was always TORN about

I appreciate the scientific poetry

iambic pentameter rhyme schemes patterns grammar simile metaphor etc etc...

but can THAT kind of EXPERTISE

ESPECIALLY presented and decided upon by those OUTSIDE the culture

have a NEGATIVE effect on the overall musical result?

It all depends on what you describe as science and intellect

Someone like Kendrick raps intelligently brilliantly even
And doesn't use punchlines which was the bar for ever. Which is kind of the bar now

J Cole doesn't use them either

Rap evolves.

Also the sound is pop. For sure. Everyone uses trap elements at this point that's why I laugh when ppl say it's played

Oh really? You don't think Nicki Minaj could have done everything hit Ariana grande did this year? Straight up remove her and have nicki sing those songs and it's seamless
Because it's trap music that's pop.

 

[playahaitian]

It all depends on what you describe as science and intellect

Someone like Kendrick raps intelligently brilliantly even
And doesn't use punchlines which was the bar for ever. Which is kind of the bar now

J Cole doesn't use them either

Rap evolves.

Also the sound is pop. For sure. Everyone uses trap elements at this point that's why I laugh when ppl say it's played

Oh really? You don't think Nicki Minaj could have done everything hit Ariana grande did this year? Straight up remove her and have nicki sing those songs and it's seamless
Because it's trap music that's pop.

I NEVER even realized that about Cole and Kendrick

Damn I'm embarrassed.

 

[playahaitian]

@4 Dimensional @ViCiouS @fonzerrillii @ansatsusha_gouki @largebillsonlyplease



Now if this show was released NOW.

HOW WOULD THE PUBLIC REACT?

 

[4 Dimensional]

@4 Dimensional @ViCiouS @fonzerrillii @ansatsusha_gouki @largebillsonlyplease



Now if this show was released NOW.

HOW WOULD THE PUBLIC REACT?

I’m not familiar with this show, but it got me imagining about having a similar class on Black films.

Interesting discussion in the video.

 

[playahaitian]

I’m not familiar with this show, but it got me imagining about having a similar class on Black films.

Interesting discussion in the video.

http://www.pbs.org/black-culture/explore/10-black-history-documentaries-to-watch/#.XDaKLVVKh9M

 

[ansatsusha_gouki]

@4 Dimensional @ViCiouS @fonzerrillii @ansatsusha_gouki @largebillsonlyplease



Now if this show was released NOW.

HOW WOULD THE PUBLIC REACT?

I'm not going to front,I thought it was going to be some bullshit..I really enjoyed the video.....I never knew the Paul Revere story but I'm not surprised though....

 

[playahaitian]

@largebillsonlyplease @4 Dimensional

this has become a wonderful discussion topic among family and friends

new thing that came up

the sudden need to address people's individual

PERSONAL TRUTH

I think this has become a BIGGER issue than we initially ever anticipated

I think originally saying someone had their own personal truth, their OWN truth ...

was meant as way to say that your own PERSPECTIVE is valid

especially in a emotional or grey area.

It was more about survivors of abuse or 2 people having a disagreement and having 2 opposing points of view...

NOW it seems to be some type of PERMISSION to just have a wildly ignorant take and justified it by saying

Well it is MY truth.

Or your ALLOWED to have your OWN TRUTH

somehow we are confusing TRUTH and FACTS?

 

[4 Dimensional]

@largebillsonlyplease @4 Dimensional

this has become a wonderful discussion topic among family and friends

new thing that came up

the sudden need to address people's individual

PERSONAL TRUTH

I think this has become a BIGGER issue than we initially ever anticipated

I think originally saying someone had their own personal truth, their OWN truth ...

was meant as way to say that your own PERSPECTIVE is valid

especially in a emotional or grey area.

It was more about survivors of abuse or 2 people having a disagreement and having 2 opposing points of view...

NOW it seems to be some type of PERMISSION to just have a wildly ignorant take and justified it by saying

Well it is MY truth.

Or your ALLOWED to have your OWN TRUTH

somehow we are confusing TRUTH and FACTS?

Oh hell. This particular topic gets me riled up.

Personal truth is only real to the individual that’s saying it. Personal truth does not equate to ultimate truth.

It’s a way for a person to not have to look outside themselves and the affects they have on other people. They somehow believe by saying “my truth” it will somehow dead any argument or disagreement about them.

When folks say “my truth” to me— I press harder because they ain’t thinking outside themselves.

My truth is the same thing as personal experience and a person’s personal experience is not the truth of the world.

For example, a scorned woman that was cheated on has trust issues with men. That’s her truth, however, not all men are cheaters, so therefore her truth isn’t really a truth. It’s just a personal experience. So they’ll argue that as some type of ultimate truth of men, which blinds them to seeing reality.

The way to combat this is to give counter examples of their truth and to question their perspective. Show them how narrow they in their thinking and when emotions get involved, empathize and counter again with an alternate perspective. With this “my truth” generation, you do not allow them to get away with it. I’m on their neck on a regular basis. I’m not dismissing a person’s personal experience, but they will not use that to stay ignorant. Not around me.

 

[playahaitian]

Oh hell. This particular topic gets me riled up.

Personal truth is only real to the individual that’s saying it. Personal truth does not equate to ultimate truth.

It’s a way for a person to not have to look outside themselves and the affects they have on other people. They somehow believe by saying “my truth” it will somehow dead any argument or disagreement about them.

When folks say “my truth” to me— I press harder because they ain’t thinking outside themselves.

My truth is the same thing as personal experience and a person’s personal experience is not the truth of the world.

For example, a scorned woman that was cheated on has trust issues with men. That’s her truth, however, not all men are cheaters, so therefore her truth isn’t really a truth. It’s just a personal experience. So they’ll argue that as some type of ultimate truth of men, which blinds them to seeing reality.

The way to combat this is to give counter examples of their truth and to question their perspective. Show them how narrow they in their thinking and when emotions get involved, empathize and counter again with an alternate perspective. With this “my truth” generation, you do not allow them to get away with it. I’m on their neck on a regular basis. I’m not dismissing a person’s personal experience, but they will not use that to stay ignorant. Not around me.

The thing that i think is destructive?

Its not only "this generation"

Kyrie and Curry and BOB way too old for that flat earth shit.

That woman KNEW it was wrong to take Elvin picture at trader joe.

Being inconsiderate and ignorant NOW seems like ACCEPTABLE and EXCUSABLE behavior now.

As long as IN THE MOMENT it felt right and was TRUE TO YOU.

And this is ADULTS DOING THIS.

The arrested development is insane.

 

[playahaitian]

Oh hell. This particular topic gets me riled up.

Personal truth is only real to the individual that’s saying it. Personal truth does not equate to ultimate truth.

It’s a way for a person to not have to look outside themselves and the affects they have on other people. They somehow believe by saying “my truth” it will somehow dead any argument or disagreement about them.

When folks say “my truth” to me— I press harder because they ain’t thinking outside themselves.

My truth is the same thing as personal experience and a person’s personal experience is not the truth of the world.

For example, a scorned woman that was cheated on has trust issues with men. That’s her truth, however, not all men are cheaters, so therefore her truth isn’t really a truth. It’s just a personal experience. So they’ll argue that as some type of ultimate truth of men, which blinds them to seeing reality.

The way to combat this is to give counter examples of their truth and to question their perspective. Show them how narrow they in their thinking and when emotions get involved, empathize and counter again with an alternate perspective. With this “my truth” generation, you do not allow them to get away with it. I’m on their neck on a regular basis. I’m not dismissing a person’s personal experience, but they will not use that to stay ignorant. Not around me.

And WORSE yet...like yo stated this can be used VERY subversively...

"Well EVER Black person I have met......"

People making their personal experience the END all and BE ALL

but I do NOT see people being reasonable about moving OFF their position.

We live in a culture where being PETTY and WILLFULLY IGNORANT is applauded.

I think this current behavior is also destroying stand up comedy ...

because EVERYTHING is a personal attack...

EVERYTHING REVOLVES around the INDIVIDUAL

and God FORBID to get even ONE "like" or "co-sign" on their bullsh*(t narrative?

ANY justification/validation just feeds the beast.

 

[largebillsonlyplease]

@largebillsonlyplease @4 Dimensional

this has become a wonderful discussion topic among family and friends

new thing that came up

the sudden need to address people's individual

PERSONAL TRUTH

I think this has become a BIGGER issue than we initially ever anticipated

I think originally saying someone had their own personal truth, their OWN truth ...

was meant as way to say that your own PERSPECTIVE is valid

especially in a emotional or grey area.

It was more about survivors of abuse or 2 people having a disagreement and having 2 opposing points of view...

NOW it seems to be some type of PERMISSION to just have a wildly ignorant take and justified it by saying

Well it is MY truth.

Or your ALLOWED to have your OWN TRUTH

somehow we are confusing TRUTH and FACTS?

Not confusion
It's on purpose to distort the truth

 

[LordSinister]

Man when it came to music back in the day, you were dope or wack. Every body who was a dj knew Eric B was Garbage on the wheels, but Rakin was dope.

Eric sucked ass on the mic but Dre's production, Cube's lyrics and his attitude and personality made Eazy a star. Same with Short. His personality and voice is what made him, not skill.

Now a days you don't need skill or personality. Just the same beat as everyone else and autotune. Its disgusting

 

[4 Dimensional]

And WORSE yet...like yo stated this can be used VERY subversively...

"Well EVER Black person I have met......"

People making their personal experience the END all and BE ALL

but I do NOT see people being reasonable about moving OFF their position.

We live in a culture where being PETTY and WILLFULLY IGNORANT is applauded.

I think this current behavior is also destroying stand up comedy ...

because EVERYTHING is a personal attack...

EVERYTHING REVOLVES around the INDIVIDUAL

and God FORBID to get even ONE "like" or "co-sign" on their bullsh*(t narrative?

ANY justification/validation just feeds the beast.

All that is the consequence to being a free thinking society. In physics we have Newton’s 3rd Law that states: “For every action force, there exists a reaction force, equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The action and reaction force always act on different objects.”

Free thinking is great, but humans freely thinking can create more personal truths. Which will cause more confusion.

 

[playahaitian]

All that is the consequence to being a free thinking society. In physics we have Newton’s 3rd Law that states: “For every action force, there exists a reaction force, equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The action and reaction force always act on different objects.”

Free thinking is great, but humans freely thinking can create more personal truths. Which will cause more confusion.

If Kanye read?

He would weep at this.

 

[ViCiouS]

All that is the consequence to being a free thinking society. In physics we have Newton’s 3rd Law that states: “For every action force, there exists a reaction force, equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The action and reaction force always act on different objects.”

Free thinking is great, but humans freely thinking can create more personal truths. Which will cause more confusion.

I disagree
Personal truth can't exist in any forum where free thought is practiced

this is the exact opposite of a free thinking society
Free thinking = competing ideas / philosophies

This personal truth bullshit came out of colleges coddling their students instead of challenging them.
Disagreement or opposition to liberal beliefs are shunned as insensitive
Arguments in favor of other philosophies or view points are suppressed with complaints from opponents of being triggered
In lecture thought experiments exploring complexity in sex race religion in some cases even economics are shut down for being non PC / sexist using tags like patriarchy, misogyny, trans homophobic -
Calling out / shouting down of those espousing "offensive thoughts" are celebrated


This is the breeding ground that birthed acceptance of "personal truth"
With almost everyone resisting challenges to the ideology or world view of their "tribe" by retreating to personal truth

 

[THE DRIZZY]

And that makes it difficult to know if a person is trolling or just a dumb ass.

Usually trolling and being a dumb ass is one in the same.