s Vitali Klitschko one of the Greatest?

[merce77]

You can't say that. Well actually you can. But look at it this way. Hopkins lost to JT. If he could lose to him and have tough fights with elchols and mercado any other lost is possible. Toney would not have been undefeated either cause he lacks discipline out the ring. RJJ was always a fight away from a loss. He just feed on dudes that were scared to pressure him in fights. That meant an automatic loss for his opponent. But just cause I stated it doesn't mean it is true. Just my opinion. I hear yours, but disagree.

So what you're saying in effect is that Joe is better than 3 of the greatest to ever do it?

I can remember Roy losing one or two ROUNDS in his prime, you honestly believe that Joe could have done to a young Roy what he did in their fight? I mean I'm all for debates but this comes off like you just trying your best to be contrary.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

So what you're saying in effect is that Joe is better than 3 of the greatest to ever do it?

I can remember Roy losing one or two ROUNDS in his prime, you honestly believe that Joe could have done to a young Roy what he did in their fight? I mean I'm all for debates but this comes off like you just trying your best to be contrary.

No. I would have said that if I really thought that. I said what I felt. Joe was a great champ and deserves credit for having a great career. To slight him is wrong. The dude could box and had power. Honestly if you are asking me could joe beat a young RJJ. I don't know. It might look like on paper RJJ wins hands down. But since they didn't fight then we don't know. I am not being contrary or trying to debate. Upsets happen. People have trouble with styles or certain fighters. Since they never fought I can't just say 100% RJJ wins.

 

[Alaskanredman]

No. I would have said that if I really thought that. I said what I felt. Joe was a great champ and deserves credit for having a great career. To slight him is wrong. The dude could box and had power. Honestly if you are asking me could joe beat a young RJJ. I don't know. It might look like on paper RJJ wins hands down. But since they didn't fight then we don't know. I am not being contrary or trying to debate. Upsets happen. People have trouble with styles or certain fighters. Since they never fought I can't just say 100% RJJ wins.

So all it takes for a great career or to be a great champ is to essentially have the career that Canelo could have if he gets wins over Shane and gets like a Morales to come up in weight. He could be considered as having had a great career after that and be done.

37 fights with a higher ko percentage already...

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

So all it takes for a great career or to be a great champ is to essentially have the career that Canelo could have if he gets wins over Shane and gets like a Morales to come up in weight. He could be considered as having had a great career after that and be done.

37 fights with a higher ko percentage already...

Lol, if that is what you get from what I said. Then sure. My personal opinion is career was great. But I don't see it as a hall of fame career. He lacks signature wins against oth p4p fighters. That doesnt change that he had a great career. He mosdef is not first ballot with me. But if he got in it isnt like there isnt an argument for it. Lots of guys have cake walk resumes. That boxing for you. Great fighters dont have a need to challenge themselves with opposition. It is all about winning and staying on cable tv for them.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Re: Is Vitali Klitschko one of the Greatest?

The K brothers are like Holmes. Not a great deal of great opponents to fight. They are fighting the people out there. It isn't like you can argue they duck opponents. And they aren't in a bad situation. You fight who is available. That is something that happens in all weight classes. Their man issue is they can't go up in weight for a challenge.

Except Holmes faced a HOFer past his prime and beat him so bad that people gave no credit. Vitali faced a HOFer past his prime, lost and had his face falling apart.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Dude is probably Blunt to tell the you the truth.

Big C/S from the crew...

 

[merce77]

Big C/S from the crew...

 

[Spectrum]

I hear what you're saying BUT - why wait until the last 2 fights of your career to come and fight 2 guys in their 40's? All those years that these guys were great Joe was comfortable fighting at home - they get old and suddenly Joe shows up in the sates. Also as I stated before, Bernard changed his style of fighting in the last year or two to be more offensive. To be honest, that's all his performance against Joe was lacking, offense. Again, Joe got the win but he didn't beat B-Hop, as a matter of fact, that decision was disputed by more than a few people. And it's not like Calzaghe didn't struggle for 12 rounds against a 43 year old fighter. Dude spent his career beating fringe contenders and wouldn't even fight his own countryman Froch. Calzaghe’s other notable opponents, Byron Mitchell, Richie Woodhall, Charles Brewer don't hold up well against the current super middleweight competition. With the exception of Kessler, who is Joe's best win imo, it would be a stretch to see any of his 168lb opponents making the top 10, much less fighting for a title in the current division. I mean all those years he was fighting and he never even fought Nigel Benn - who is British, he was too busy fighting all time greats like Mario Veit - TWICE. So forget about James Toney, or Roy Jones or even fucking Sven Ottke - his German counterpart.

Lets put it this way. If you take Hopkins, Toney and Jones and put them up against the exact same fighters that Joe fought - all three would have retired 46-0.

This is all that needs to be said.

 

[Spectrum]

Honestly if you are asking me could joe beat a young RJJ. I don't know. .

I would bet anything that a prime RJJ beats the living shit out of Joe EASILY. if they fought 10 times, Joe wouldnt stand a chance to win ONE fight against a PRIME RJJ....he is not even close to the caliber of fighter that a PRIME RJJ was..

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

I would bet anything that a prime RJJ beats the living shit out of Joe EASILY. if they fought 10 times, Joe wouldnt stand a chance to win ONE fight against a PRIME RJJ....he is not even close to the caliber of fighter that a PRIME RJJ was..

You know something. History has a funny way of showing that guys who's main weapon is fear. They usually lose when the meet a fighter that doesn't fear them. It happens all the time. Fighters were terrified of RJJ's speed and power. The way Shane fought against Manny or how Clottey did. Is how they fought RJJ. All it takes is for a fighter to stand up to these types of fighters and they shield is stripped and they become beatable. Joe never struck me as a dude that would cower away from a fight. I am just saying we will never know. But it is possible either could have won. RJJ had a huge portion of his wins against dudes they wouldn't even try to win. Talent dude though.

 

[Zeferino]

You know something. History has a funny way of showing that guys who's main weapon is fear. They usually lose when the meet a fighter that doesn't fear them. It happens all the time. Fighters were terrified of RJJ's speed and power. The way Shane fought against Manny or how Clottey did. Is how they fought RJJ. All it takes is for a fighter to stand up to these types of fighters and they shield is stripped and they become beatable. Joe never struck me as a dude that would cower away from a fight. I am just saying we will never know. But it is possible either could have won. RJJ had a huge portion of his wins against dudes they wouldn't even try to win. Talent dude though.

I think there were plenty of guys that Jones dominated in his prime that were not scared or in awe of him:

Bryant Brannon was not scared.
Thomas Tate was not scared at all and he got seriously highlighted.
Telesco wasn't scared.
Eric Harding wasn't scared at all.
John Ruiz didn't look scared.
James Toney definitely wasn't scared
Bernard Hopkins wasn't scared.
Jorge Castro didn't seem scared at all.
Virgil Hill didn't seem scared at all.

There are plenty of examples but those are the ones that came to mind. I was never under the impression that Jones had any Mike Tyson-like intimidation thing going where guys were scared shitless of him. Of course there were some guys, the bummiest of the bums that seemed scared shitless like that Frazier guy and that black dude from Canada whose name I can't remember, Otis something.

 

[Zeferino]

I would bet anything that a prime RJJ beats the living shit out of Joe EASILY. if they fought 10 times, Joe wouldnt stand a chance to win ONE fight against a PRIME RJJ....he is not even close to the caliber of fighter that a PRIME RJJ was..

I know we've argued regarding the whole skills versus physical ability thing but regardless of whatever the hell it was that made Jones special, this guy was a serious force to be reckoned with in his prime. It's hard for me to pick anyone at all over Jones in his prime unless we start talking about 190lbs and up. Back in the day, I used to think Jirov would give him hell.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

I think there were plenty of guys that Jones dominated in his prime that were not scared or in awe of him:

Bryant Brannon was not scared.
Thomas Tate was not scared at all and he got seriously highlighted.
Telesco wasn't scared.
Eric Harding wasn't scared at all.
John Ruiz didn't look scared.
James Toney definitely wasn't scared
Bernard Hopkins wasn't scared.
Jorge Castro didn't seem scared at all.
Virgil Hill didn't seem scared at all.

There are plenty of examples but those are the ones that came to mind. I was never under the impression that Jones had any Mike Tyson-like intimidation thing going where guys were scared shitless of him. Of course there were some guys, the bummiest of the bums that seemed scared shitless like that Frazier guy and that black dude from Canada whose name I can't remember, Otis something.

I've been drinking and I don't remember all these snooze fest fights. But BHOP fight was on some sad shit. BHOP was green as a mofo. The name might say BHOP on the record but the fighter was not the hall of famer we know. Toney was a dead man walking that fight if I remember correctly. Wasn't he sick or dehydrated and near death. LMAO, Virgil Hill could impose himself on a real contender unless Don King paid them off. Eric "he hit me when I was done" Harding. Nah, dude tried but he wasn't world class level anyways. I could keep going on too.

Here is the death. Dudes were terrified of RJJ. Rightfully so though. His hand speed and power was so insane he could keep his hands down most of the fight. You forget. Dudes used to be scared to throw just one punch against roy. I used to want to fight roy myself just to see some action. Roy used to have rounds where he throw 10 punches and connect on seven and win. Cause dudes wouldn't throw or has ass it like Shane did Manny.

Listen. RJJ was talented as fuck. But I knew all it took as a fighter with balls to face him. Oh yeah and they had to be skilled to beat him too. He just was lucky HBO fed him scared as b and c fighters for so long. My opinion of course.

 

[Oracle21]

its a tough one to call. its not the klitchko's fault that the division is terrible. in the same token they are highly dominant but never have beaten a Hall of famer. its a tough one to call for sure. But i mean they are dominant now and they will be remembered for beating those in a lackluster era.

 

[Alaskanredman]

I've been drinking and I don't remember all these snooze fest fights. But BHOP fight was on some sad shit. BHOP was green as a mofo. The name might say BHOP on the record but the fighter was not the hall of famer we know. Toney was a dead man walking that fight if I remember correctly. Wasn't he sick or dehydrated and near death. LMAO, Virgil Hill could impose himself on a real contender unless Don King paid them off. Eric "he hit me when I was done" Harding. Nah, dude tried but he wasn't world class level anyways. I could keep going on too.

Here is the death. Dudes were terrified of RJJ. Rightfully so though. His hand speed and power was so insane he could keep his hands down most of the fight. You forget. Dudes used to be scared to throw just one punch against roy. I used to want to fight roy myself just to see some action. Roy used to have rounds where he throw 10 punches and connect on seven and win. Cause dudes wouldn't throw or has ass it like Shane did Manny.

Listen. RJJ was talented as fuck. But I knew all it took as a fighter with balls to face him. Oh yeah and they had to be skilled to beat him too. He just was lucky HBO fed him scared as b and c fighters for so long. My opinion of course.

 

[patscorpio]

Re: Is Vitali Klitschko one of the Greatest?

Except Holmes faced a HOFer past his prime and beat him so bad that people gave no credit. Vitali faced a HOFer past his prime, lost and had his face falling apart.

isn't that the truth

 

[Alaskanredman]

Re: Is Vitali Klitschko one of the Greatest?

isn't that the truth

Niggas act like Vitali won the fight cause he started winning some rounds or they act like that fight didn't happen like that Chris Byrd bullshit. Most fighters don't get that type of pass unless they beat another HOFer, but I leave that to the black/white bias experts to make that call. I remember my uncles being pissed at Holmes for beating Ali like that when Holmes was doing what the fuck an elite fighter does.

 

[patscorpio]

I think there were plenty of guys that Jones dominated in his prime that were not scared or in awe of him:

Bryant Brannon was not scared.
Thomas Tate was not scared at all and he got seriously highlighted.
Telesco wasn't scared.
Eric Harding wasn't scared at all.
John Ruiz didn't look scared.
James Toney definitely wasn't scared
Bernard Hopkins wasn't scared.
Jorge Castro didn't seem scared at all.
Virgil Hill didn't seem scared at all.

There are plenty of examples but those are the ones that came to mind. I was never under the impression that Jones had any Mike Tyson-like intimidation thing going where guys were scared shitless of him. Of course there were some guys, the bummiest of the bums that seemed scared shitless like that Frazier guy and that black dude from Canada whose name I can't remember, Otis something.

the bolded stood out to me because thomas tate just got off going the distance with the GOAT puncher julian jackson, a man who hadn't heard the final bell since his debut 11 years to that fight...and roy takes him out with one left hook in 2 rounds that had him out on his feet, wobblin and falling into the ropes hard..tate would never be stopped again after that...that was impressive

 

[TJervey]

As far as Vitali, the only way to rate him against the past fighters is by evaluating talent, skill level and ring smarts... and I believe both Vitali and Wlad display that better than a lot of the previous heavyweights, including Ali... As great as Ali was, in a lot of fights, due to pride, etc., he gave up his advantages to fight the wrong kind of fight, and it cost him in the ring and later in life (i.e. the Frazier wars). Now a lot of this may have had to do the man in front of him, but until proven otherwise, that's one thing I can say about both brothers, they fight to their strengths, they don't give into the call to be more 'exciting', and they are almost unbeatable if they stay in their skill set. This is why I believe they would cause trouble for most heavyweights in any era. It is hard as hell to beat a 6'7" / 6'8" guy, who fights tall, stays behind a long jab, doesn't take a bunch of chances, and in Vitali's case, has great movement and ring generalship for a man his size!!! Boring yes, effective definitely!

 

[TJervey]

I know we've argued regarding the whole skills versus physical ability thing but regardless of whatever the hell it was that made Jones special, this guy was a serious force to be reckoned with in his prime. It's hard for me to pick anyone at all over Jones in his prime unless we start talking about 190lbs and up. Back in the day, I used to think Jirov would give him hell.

Sad thing is, we never knew because he didn't take a lot of the harder fights. RJJ was the most phenomenal physical freak ever in boxing IMO. His only weakness was fundamentals, but athletically, his shit was Alien!! As far as Jirov, nah, Dude was slow as molasses, Roy would have countered him to death and the fight probably would have been stopped on cuts and embarrassment! I would probably say... Damn, it's hard to rate anyone even close enough to really challenge him outside of catching him with some 'Oh Shit!' because he fought with his hands down all the time.... If he'd retired closer to his prime, even with the knockout to Tarver, he would have been held in a lot higher regard than he is now...

 

[Zeferino]

Sad thing is, we never knew because he didn't take a lot of the harder fights. RJJ was the most phenomenal physical freak ever in boxing IMO. His only weakness was fundamentals, but athletically, his shit was Alien!! As far as Jirov, nah, Dude was slow as molasses, Roy would have countered him to death and the fight probably would have been stopped on cuts and embarrassment! I would probably say... Damn, it's hard to rate anyone even close enough to really challenge him outside of catching him with some 'Oh Shit!' because he fought with his hands down all the time.... If he'd retired closer to his prime, even with the knockout to Tarver, he would have been held in a lot higher regard than he is now...

Which were the harder fights that he missed? Everybody misses somebody in their division but generally Jones always fought guys in the top three of every division he was in, in the case of his stay at light heavy he fought at least 8 out of 10 guys in the top ten and unified the belts too. Jones fighting with his hands down "all the time" is a myth and one of the reasons people go on with this stuff about the guy just being a speed demon with no fundamentals. Jones would drop his hands when it was time to showboat but when it was time for serious business his stance was a lot more classical. The Thomas Tate example is perfect. You should youtube that fight if you haven't seen it. It's only two rounds and very revealing about Jones' fundamentals as there is no distracting showboating until the end when the opponent is knocked out.

 

[Alaskanredman]

So no one else is going to comment on buk slow ass saying he wanted to fight RJJ himself just to see Roy have an action packed fight....

Dude has to be trolling.

 

[TJervey]

So no one else is going to comment on buk slow ass saying he wanted to fight RJJ himself just to see Roy have an action packed fight....

Dude has to be trolling.

Nah I didn't miss it, I was just too thrown to comment on it! Either Dude was drunk off his s when he wrote that or a mind is a terrible thing to waste!

 

[Alaskanredman]

Nah I didn't miss it, I was just too thrown to comment on it! Either Dude was drunk off his s when he wrote that or a mind is a terrible thing to waste!

Okay, dude has been sounding extra stupid these past few years, but that was incredible.

 

[Jordan Diddy Buk]

Okay, dude has been sounding extra stupid these past few years, but that was incredible.

you really you can't decipher a joke from an declaration? or is it that you are so hard up for my attention that any from me is better than none? funny.