s Vitali Klitschko one of the Greatest?

Jordan Diddy Buk

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By John F. McKenna (McJack): It has long been this writers opinion that World Boxing Council (WBC) Heavyweight Champion Vitali Klitschko (44-2, 39 KO’s) is way underrated as a fighter. While boxing fans in Eastern Europe have long looked at “Dr. Ironfist” as a great fighter, boxing fans in the USA have been slow to recognize just how good a fighter he is.


Let’s take a look at a possible reason why Vitali Klitschko is under estimated in the United States as a fighter and as a champion. Going way back to John L. Sullivan, who was the first recognized Heavyweight Champion of the World, and an American, almost all of the Heavyweight Champions have come from the USA. Max Schmeling and Primo Carnera in the 1930’s and Ingemar Johansson in 1959 were notable exceptions to the rule and in each case they were just brief interludes. After holding the title for a year or so the title came back to its rightful place in the United States where it belonged. Growing up in the United States that was the way it was supposed to be. It was okay if a fighter from somewhere else won a lesser title, but the Heavyweight Champion had to come from the good old USA. It was even thought that fighters in Europe did not really know how to fight that well. And forget about Eastern Europe, they were locked behind the Iron Curtain in the then Soviet Union. They were awkward and clumsy anyway. They could never compete with the slick fighters from America. We Americans were smug in our arrogance.
Then the Berlin Wall came down and the Soviet Block fell. I remember thinking at the time that when some of these guys who had been behind the Iron Curtain and were now free had the opportunity some pretty good fighters were going to be coming out of there.
The handwriting was on the wall. It was only a matter of time. We had all seen some of the tremendous athletes who participated in the Olympics who came from Eastern Europe.

Vitali Klitschko and his brother Vladimir came out of that system. Vitali was hardened by his formative years growing up in the Soviet Union. It made him a tougher individual.
When Vladimir speaks of his older brother he says that Vitali was born a fighter, while he had to work at it.

When you look at Vitali Klitschko’s career it is nothing short of amazing. His first big fight on the world stage was against all time great Lennox Lewis in 2003. He put up a tremendous fight and had a two round lead on the score cards when the fight had to be stopped due to a horrific fight. Lennox retired rather than give Vitali a Mega Bucks rematch. There are those who say because of that fight that Vitali is a bleeder, but he has not had a significant problem in other fights with cuts.

For the record Vitali has never been behind in a fight. He has a chin of granite and has never been knocked down or even hurt in a fight. Although he appears awkward he maximizes his athletic ability and his 6’7 ½” height. He uses his left hand as a range finder, making it difficult for opponents to get close enough to land a punch. When an opponent gets past his left jab he usually makes him pay for it by clubbing him with a short left hook or his potent right hand.

Sine returning to the ring in 2008 after a four year layoff due to injuries Viali instead of slowing down only appears to have gotten getting better. He has won virtually every round of the seven fights he has had sine his return to the ring.

So how does Klitschko stack up against past champions? First of all boxing fans, including this writer tend to look at past champions through rose colored glasses.
We tend to see what we want to see and overlook the obvious.

Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano were my three favorite Heavyweight Champions. The shocker is that Dempsey was 6’1” and weighed only 185 pounds. Marciano was 5’10” and weighed about the same as Dempsey, 185 pounds. Joe Louis was 6’1” and throughout most of his career went into the ring at about 200 pounds.
Louis of the three would have the best chance against Vital, but let’s be realistic. Giving away 6 inches in height and fifty pound in weight it is difficult to see how Louis could close the gap against the huge Ukrainian. Louis faced some big heavyweights in his twenty five title defenses such as the 6’6” Buddy Bear, but Baer had nowhere near the skill of Vitali and did not use his height wisely.

Fighters like Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier would also be at a major disadvantage. Liston was 6’1” and went into the ring in his first fight with then Cassius Clay at 214 pounds. Clay weighed 210 pounds for that fight. Joe Frazier weighed just 206 pounds in his first fight with Ali.

Kenny Norton won his first fight with Ali and the 2nd and 3rd fights could have gone either way. Norton seemed to have a style that Ali just could not figure out. Norton tipped the scales at about 211 pounds for most of his fights.

Obviously there are numerous fighters that have not been mentioned, but the point is clear. Fighters of even twenty years ago would have a major problem competing against today’s super heavyweights. The thought of a fighter who weighs less than 200 pounds getting a shot at the title today is laughable. When Liston fought Clay in 1964 they were both considered to be huge fighters.

It is time to reassess our old ideas at how we rank the great heavyweights. And it is a bitter pill for Americans to face, but they are not coming from the USA anymore.
 

P03t

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damn near unbeatable IMO right now...Adamek is going to have his hands full with Vitali...

greatest no....he hasn't fought the best opposition to put him on the level of Holmes, Ali & Louis...his best test was Lewis....he had trouble with an out of shape Lennox.... dude came in heaviest in his career....

but he also had Lewis holding on to dear life in the later rds....:lol:

when its all over for the Klits won't rank high on many P4P lists....Haye is Wlad's biggest win thats not saying much...they are victims of a shitty era for the heavies...
 

Zeferino

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He definitely is one of the greatest heavyweights ever when you forget that he is white and fights in Europe. If he was black, American, and fighting in America dominating the way he does he would be getting tremendous respect.
 

P03t

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He definitely is one of the greatest heavyweights ever when you forget that he is white and fights in Europe. If he was black, American, and fighting in America dominating the way he does he would be getting tremendous respect.

fuck outta here with this black & white excuse....the heavies are shit you really think they would have been great against Foreman & Holmes...?

they are dominating a shitty era of heavies....name a great fighter they have beaten?

lately bruh you have been reaching with this race nonsense...let me guess Pavlik is not liked or underrated cuz he's white....:rolleyes:
 

Zeferino

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fuck outta here with this black & white excuse....the heavies are shit you really think they would have been great against Foreman & Holmes...?

they are dominating a shitty era of heavies....name a great fighter they have beaten?

lately bruh you have been reaching with this race nonsense...let me guess Pavlik is not liked or underrated cuz he's white....:rolleyes:

Nah, Pavlik just fell off but we´re talking about heavyweights and you know race is relevant in boxing. You know what, I´ll rephrase the white thing. I think Klitschko would be seen as greater and much more respected if he were American period white or black. You can´t tell me you don´t think Klitschko wouldn´t be more respected if he were American and fighting in the U.S

Even HBO didn´t want to show his fight last time. If he were an American fighter this wouldn´t have happened. Well either his or his brother´s, I´m starting to mix them up.
 

Alaskanredman

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fuck outta here with this black & white excuse....the heavies are shit you really think they would have been great against Foreman & Holmes...?

they are dominating a shitty era of heavies....name a great fighter they have beaten?

lately bruh you have been reaching with this race nonsense...let me guess Pavlik is not liked or underrated cuz he's white....:rolleyes:

Calzaghe... Hatton... Gatti... Green... the trend seems to be to overrate these guys, but hey, why would the truth matter.
 

P03t

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Nah, Pavlik just fell off but we´re talking about heavyweights and you know race is relevant in boxing. You know what, I´ll rephrase the white thing. I think Klitschko would be seen as greater and much more respected if he were American period white or black. You can´t tell me you don´t think Klitschko wouldn´t be more respected if he were American and fighting in the U.S

Even HBO didn´t want to show his fight last time. If he were an American fighter this wouldn´t have happened. Well either his or his brother´s, I´m starting to mix them up.

Of course...the HW champ is a guy the country he belongs to reps him to the fullest....

the Klits don't have a pleasing style...they are effective & underrated IMO...I've always said that.....but Greatest...top 10?...unfortunately they haven't beaten any great opposition & they are Eastern European....so you won't see them alot on American TV...

HBO took alot of their fights early but they weren't pleasing enough for them to carry them full time....unless its a huge fight...the biggest fight either of them can put together was Haye & he is no competition for both of them....

America has always been about big men boxing.....I'm not surprised they don't get alot of love here....they aren't that exciting for the casuals....
 

Zeferino

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Of course...the HW champ is a guy the country he belongs to reps him to the fullest....

the Klits don't have a pleasing style...they are effective & underrated IMO...I've always said that.....but Greatest...top 10?...unfortunately they haven't beaten any great opposition & they are Eastern European....so you won't see them alot on American TV...

HBO took alot of their fights early but they weren't pleasing enough for them to carry them full time....unless its a huge fight...the biggest fight either of them can put together was Haye & he is no competition for both of them....

America has always been about big men boxing.....I'm not surprised they don't get alot of love here....they aren't that exciting for the casuals....

Right, I agree. Pretty much what I said. If they were getting love in America their stock would definitely be higher. As boring as they are perceived to be, although I don´t find Vitali boring, if they were two American white guys from Wisconsin beating up all these black guys the way they do they would definitely be getting more props.
 

P03t

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Calzaghe... Hatton... Gatti... Green... the trend seems to be to overrate these guys, but hey, why would the truth matter.

Gatti was exciting but thats it...

the Euro's & Aussies love to overrate these cats...:smh:...it has nothing to do with Race...

best Boxers lately are coming from (Always) America, Central/South America & now Asia....
 

P03t

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Right, I agree. Pretty much what I said. If they were getting love in America their stock would definitely be higher. As boring as they are perceived to be, although I don´t find Vitali boring, if they were two American white guys from Wisconsin beating up all these black guys the way they do they would definitely be getting more props.

Great White Hope...?

man they wish they could find one to beat up all the blacks...they have been wishing on this since we have been allowed to Box

 

Zeferino

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Gatti was exciting but thats it...

the Euro's & Aussies love to overrate these cats...:smh:...it has nothing to do with Race...

best Boxers lately are coming from (Always) America, Central/South America & now Asia....

America? America has fallen off as far as boxing. There is barely any American dominance in any division. Think about it. In what divisions do any Americans dominate? I can´t think of any right now. Maybe that waste land that is light heavy.

IMO, the fact that mostly Russians have held the heavyweight title over the past probably 10 years is shocking and really telling. These Russians are picking up even the WBO belt. They´re just cleaning up. Now we have Adamek who is Eastern European as well.
 

Zeferino

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Great White Hope...?

man they wish they could find one to beat up all the blacks...they have been wishing on this since we have been allowed to Box


Yeah, they got it now but they´re European so it´s like it doesn´t really count. It would probably count if it was some Georgia white boy with a deep southern accent. That would be funny actually if he were also a little racist and walked in with the confederate flag. People would be pissed off.:lol: Then he slips up and calls someone the N word in a prefight press conference. Oh my god, the PPV numbers would go through the roof.
 

P03t

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America? America has fallen off as far as boxing. There is barely any American dominance in any division. Think about it. In what divisions do any Americans dominate? I can´t think of any right now. Maybe that waste land that is light heavy.

IMO, the fact that mostly Russians have held the heavyweight title over the past probably 10 years is shocking and really telling. These Russians are picking up even the WBO belt. They´re just cleaning up. Now we have Adamek who is Eastern European as well.

Vaulev & those guys are not good...Rahman was not good...these guys are dominating a weak ass HW division its telling that big ass Vaulev had a strap & couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag....

& how many non American champs have Americans as their head trainer?

how many of them come over here to train with American trainers/fighters?

Atlas is on hiatus cuz he is training Povetkin....the problem is you have a sport thats not as appealing to American youth as Football & other sports are....& other fighters from fuck up backgrounds in other countries are Boxing....
 

Alaskanredman

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Gatti was exciting but thats it...

the Euro's & Aussies love to overrate these cats...:smh:...it has nothing to do with Race...

best Boxers lately are coming from (Always) America, Central/South America & now Asia....

Gatti was exciting cause he took a beating in damn near every fight...:lol:
 

P03t

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Yeah. The fact is few heavyweights dominate like this for this long regardless of era.

& he/they would have dominated the Heavies in the 70's THE GOLDEN ERA for heavyweight boxing?....plz log off....:smh:

Cooney would have KO'ed Wlad like he did Norton...cats live in the moment....

I can name other fighters with better longer reigns....
 

Zeferino

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& he/they would have dominated the Heavies in the 70's THE GOLDEN ERA for heavyweight boxing?....plz log off....:smh:

Cooney would have KO'ed Wlad like he did Norton...cats live in the moment....

I can name other fighters with better longer reigns....

Did I say they would have dominated in the 70´s? Stop the nonsense.
 

Zeferino

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Vaulev & those guys are not good...Rahman was not good...these guys are dominating a weak ass HW division its telling that big ass Vaulev had a strap & couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag....

& how many non American champs have Americans as their head trainer?

how many of them come over here to train with American trainers/fighters?

Atlas is on hiatus cuz he is training Povetkin....the problem is you have a sport thats not as appealing to American youth as Football & other sports are....& other fighters from fuck up backgrounds in other countries are Boxing....

Atlas sucks ass. Regardless, none of these reasons or excuses you are spitting take away from the fact that these guys are dominating. By the same token, we can say that black people in America had it a lot more rough in the past, were hungrier, looked towards boxing, and therefore excelled and dominated. It´s the same thing that you are saying about the European fighters in your last paragraph. This is not a valid reason to try and take merit away from the fighter.
 

P03t

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Did I say they would have dominated in the 70´s? Stop the nonsense.

they aren't dominating nothing but a weak HW divison bruh...no one discredit them bruh...but I'm asking you would they dominate the 70's like they are doing now?

like Blues said top 25 yes....but these cats aren't in the league with Foreman & them....
 

Zeferino

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Vaulev & those guys are not good...Rahman was not good...these guys are dominating a weak ass HW division its telling that big ass Vaulev had a strap & couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag....


Yes, Valuev is bummish but we have bums too in America. Bums like Monte Barret and he couldn´t beat Valuev. So even bum vs bum we´re having problems with these guys.
 

Alaskanredman

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& he/they would have dominated the Heavies in the 70's THE GOLDEN ERA for heavyweight boxing?....plz log off....:smh:

Cooney would have KO'ed Wlad like he did Norton...cats live in the moment....

I can name other fighters with better longer reigns....

I think it's funny that cats don't even want to break down their comp. Put that shit under the same microscope that we put other fighters under. Lewis was the last great heavy and was on a hard decline when he beat Vitali. For all the guys who are so wrapped up in weight, why is that you guys have very little to say about all the serious comp these days being small guys moving up... just a sign of how fucked up heavyweight is and dominating a weak division is the same reason smaller guys have to move up to prove themselves. The only thing they can do is fight each other.
 
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Zeferino

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they aren't dominating nothing but a weak HW divison bruh...no one discredit them bruh...but I'm asking you would they dominate the 70's like they are doing now?

like Blues said top 25 yes....but these cats aren't in the league with Foreman & them....

Hmm. I´m not so quick to say they couldn´t hang because physically these guys are...you know what, in mid thought I do remember that these guys have quit when the going went rough and back then it was 15 rounds of hellish fighting so no I don´t think they could have hung in the 70´s. But yeah, you got to give them at least top 25 and that´s quite respectable from a historical perspective.
 

Zeferino

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I think it's funny that cats don't even want to break down their comp. Put that shit under the same microscope that we put other fighters under. Lewis was the last great heavy and was on a hard decline when he beat Vitali. For all the guys who are so wrapped up in weight, why is that you guys have very little to say about all the serious comp these days being small guys moving up...

Well, it´s very different because it´s not like they can go up a division and find better fighters or fighters more their size or fighters bigger than them. It´s not like Bernard Hopkins staying at middle and fighting Robbie Allen 5 times while he could have moved up to 168 and 175 where there was much better competition without having to feast on name guys rising in weight to fight him.
 

P03t

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Atlas sucks ass. Regardless, none of these reasons or excuses you are spitting take away from the fact that these guys are dominating. By the same token, we can say that black people in America had it a lot more rough in the past, were hungrier, looked towards boxing, and therefore excelled and dominated. It´s the same thing that you are saying about the European fighters in your last paragraph. This is not a valid reason to try and take merit away from the fighter.

I never discredited the Klits check my post.....I said they are unbeatable now & underrated bruh.....

the majority of international Boxers have trainers that are American or they come here.....they all know they have been more American success in Boxing than any other country....

most Americans especially alot of brothas have other options....not to mention the sport has failed promoting to the youth Black or white...thats why we see a decline in American Boxers....

they grew up poor & they are hungry for success like Sergio...Manny....I love the sport bruh I'm not mad to see some one other than a brotha dominate the sport.....stop reaching....

Wlad & Vitali are good yes...but all of them Eastern Euro's aren't that good....the Klits have dominated & deserve more respect but they wouldn't dominate many other eras of heavy weight boxing bruh....thats what I'm saying...

lastly American blacks have dominated boxing since we have been allowed to box,....we have collected more belts, occupied more P4P lists, achieve more accolades than any other nationality or race....
 

P03t

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I think it's funny that cats don't even want to break down their comp. Put that shit under the same microscope that we put other fighters under. Lewis was the last great heavy and was on a hard decline when he beat Vitali. For all the guys who are so wrapped up in weight, why is that you guys have very little to say about all the serious comp these days being small guys moving up... just a sign of how fucked up heavyweight is and dominating a weak division is the same reason smaller guys have to move up to prove themselves. The only thing they can do is fight each other.

:thumbsup:
 

Zeferino

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I never discredited the Klits check my post.....I said they are unbeatable now & underrated bruh.....

the majority of international Boxers have trainers that are American or they come here.....they all know they have been more American success in Boxing than any other country....

most Americans especially alot of brothas have other options....not to mention the sport has failed promoting to the youth Black or white...thats why we see a decline in American Boxers....

they grew up poor & they are hungry for success like Sergio...Manny....I love the sport bruh I'm not mad to see some one other than a brotha dominate the sport.....stop reaching....

Wlad & Vitali are good yes...but all of them Eastern Euro's aren't that good....the Klits have dominated & deserve more respect but they wouldn't dominate many other eras of heavy weight boxing bruh....thats what I'm saying...

lastly American blacks have dominated boxing since we have been allowed to box,....we have collected more belts, occupied more P4P lists, achieve more accolades than any other nationality or race....

Hmm. I think it is fair to say that the greatest fighters of all time have mostly been American blacks. I think most top ten all time great lists include at least two, Ali and Robinson. However, I don´t think it´s accurate to say that American blacks have collected more belts than other nationalities. Actually, I think that is definitely a false statement.
 

Zeferino

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KO Magazine´s P4P lists over the years. I don´t see a clear American dominance at all.

1981

KO Magazine (January)
1 - Thomas Hearns
2 - Sugar Ray Leonard
3 - Marvin Hagler
4 - Larry Holmes
5 - Alexis Arguello
6 - Wilfredo Gomez
7 - Eddie Mustafa Muhammad
8 - Matt Saad Muhammmad
9 - Wilfred Benitez
10 - Roberto Duran/Aaron Pryor (tie)

1982

KO Magazine
1. Sugar Ray Leonard
2. Alexis Arguello
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Salvador Sanchez
5. Wilfred Benitez
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jeff Chandler
8. Eusebio Pedroza
9. Aaron Pryor
10. Thomas Hearns/Dwight Braxton* (tie)

*Dwight Muhammad Qawi

1983

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Aaron Pryor
3. Larry Holmes
4. Michael Spinks
5. Jeff Chandler
6. Thomas Hearns
7. Alexis Arguello
8. Wilfredo Gomez
9. Hector Camacho
10. Eusebio Pedroza

1984

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Aaron Pryor
3. Larry Holmes
4. Eusebio Pedroza
5. Hector Camacho
6. Ray Leonard
6. Jeff Chandler
8. Michael Spinks
9. Thomas Hearns
10. Donald Curry

1985

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Hector Camacho
3. Michael Spinks
4. Donald Curry
5. Thomas Hearns
6. Barry McGuigan
7. Milton McCrory
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Pinklon Thomas
10. Larry Holmes

1986

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Mike Tyson
3. Donald Curry
4. Thomas Hearns
5. Edwin Rosario
6. Azumah Nelson
6. Michael Spinks
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Hector Camacho

1988

KO Magazine
1. Mike Tyson
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Ray Leonard
5. Jeff Fenech
6. Michael Nunn
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Jung Koo Chang
9. Buddy McGirt
10. Sumbu Kalambay

1989

1. Mike Tyson
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Michael Nunn
5. Antonio Esparragoza
6. Meldrick Taylor
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Raul Perez
9. Virgil Hill
10. Marlon Starling

1990

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Michael Nunn
4. Antonio Esparragoza
5. Meldrick Taylor
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Mike Tyson
8. Raul Perez
9. Myung-Woo Yuh
10. Khaosai Galaxy

1992

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Terry Norris
4. Orlando Canizales
5. James (Buddy) McGirt
6. Riddick Bowe
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Sung-Kil Moon
9. Julian Jackson
10. James Toney

1993

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. James Toney
4. Michael Carbajal
5. Orlando Canizales
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Roy Jones Jr.
9. Kennedy McKinney
10. Yuri Arbachakov

1994

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Orlando Canizales
4. Ricardo Lopez
5. Humberto Gonzalez
6. Frankie Randall
7. Felix Trinidad
8. Gerald McClellan
9. Miguel Angel Gonzalez
10. Kevin Kelley

1995

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Ricardo Lopez
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Felix Trinidad
6. Yuri Arbachakov
7. Kostya Tszyu
8. Riddick Bowe
9. Marco Antonio Barrera
10. Terry Norris

1996

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Oscar De La Hoya
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Felix Trinidad
5. Ricardo Lopez
6. Junior Jones
7. Kostya Tszyu
8. Terry Norris
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Mark Johnson

1997

KO Magazine
1. Oscar De La Hoya
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Felix Trinidad
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Terry Norris
7. Junior Jones
8. Ricardo Lopez
9. Ike Quartey
10. Mark Johnson

1998

1. Oscar De La Hoya
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Felix Trinidad
5. Mark Johnson
6. Shane Mosley
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
9. Naseem Hamed
10. Johnny Tapia

1999

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
3. Felix Trinidad
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Shane Mosley
6. Mark Johnson
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Erik Morales
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Stevie Johnston

2000

1. Shane Mosley
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Roy Jones Jr.
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Diego Corrales
6. Naseem Hamed
7. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Erik Morales
10. Bernard Hopkins

2001

1. Shane Mosley
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Roy Jones Jr.
4. Marco Antonio Barrera
5. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
6. Felix Trinidad
7. Oscar De La Hoya
8. Ricardo Lopez
9. Kostya Tszyu
10. Erik Morales

2002

1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Marco Antonio Barrera
4. Vernon Forrest
5. Oscar De La Hoya
6. Kostya Tszyu
7. Erik Morales
8. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Shane Mosley

2003

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Shane Mosley
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Kostya Tszyu
8. Erik Morales
9. James Toney
10. Antonio Tarver

2004

1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
3. Kostya Tszyu
4. Ronald (Winky) Wright
5. Manny Pacquiao
6. Juan Manuel Marquez
7. Marco Antonio Barrera
8. Erik Morales
9. Glen Johnson
10. Antonio Tarver

2005

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Ronald (Winky) Wright
3. Marco Antonio Barrera
4. Ricky Hatton
5. Manny Pacquiao
6. Erik Morales
7. Juan Manuel Marquez
8. Rafael Marquez
9. Jose Luis Castillo
10. Zab Judah

2006

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Ronald (Winky) Wright
4. Jermain Taylor
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Marco Antonio Barrera
7. Rafael Marquez
8. Ricky Hatton
9. Jose Luis Castillo
10. Joe Calzaghe

2007

Doug Fischer - Maxboxing.com
1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. Juan Manuel Marquez
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Israel Vazquez/Rafael Marquez
8. Miguel Cotto
9. Ivan Calderon
10. Winky Wright

2008

1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Juan Manuel Marquez
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Israel Vazquez
6. Antonio Margarito
7. Rafael Marquez
8. Miguel Cotto
9. Ivan Calderon
10. Ricky Hatton
 

Zeferino

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Hmm. You know, those lists are actually interesting. You can see that as the years went by, American dominance in general started to fade. Heavyweight has traditionally been a division of American dominance really until Lennox Lewis arrived. Maybe the heavyweight division´s current state is a reflexion of America´s general decline in boxing.
 

P03t

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OG Investor
Hmm. I think it is fair to say that the greatest fighters of all time have mostly been American blacks. I think most top ten all time great lists include at least two, Ali and Robinson. However, I don´t think it´s accurate to say that American blacks have collected more belts than other nationalities. Actually, I think that is definitely a false statement.

I was searching for the article I can seem to find it...but it shows the influence African Americans has had on Boxing & how since we were ALLOWED to box how many belts we won & how we dominated P4P lists....trust bruh it surpassed many other races & nationalities...

 

Jordan Diddy Buk

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Hmm. I´m not so quick to say they couldn´t hang because physically these guys are...you know what, in mid thought I do remember that these guys have quit when the going went rough and back then it was 15 rounds of hellish fighting so no I don´t think they could have hung in the 70´s. But yeah, you got to give them at least top 25 and that´s quite respectable from a historical perspective.

I agree. It is best to judge athletes in their era. To do different discounts the differences the years, sports medicine, and other things makes.

KO Magazine´s P4P lists over the years. I don´t see a clear American dominance at all.

1981

KO Magazine (January)
1 - Thomas Hearns
2 - Sugar Ray Leonard
3 - Marvin Hagler
4 - Larry Holmes
5 - Alexis Arguello
6 - Wilfredo Gomez
7 - Eddie Mustafa Muhammad
8 - Matt Saad Muhammmad
9 - Wilfred Benitez
10 - Roberto Duran/Aaron Pryor (tie)

1982

KO Magazine
1. Sugar Ray Leonard
2. Alexis Arguello
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Salvador Sanchez
5. Wilfred Benitez
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jeff Chandler
8. Eusebio Pedroza
9. Aaron Pryor
10. Thomas Hearns/Dwight Braxton* (tie)

*Dwight Muhammad Qawi

1983

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Aaron Pryor
3. Larry Holmes
4. Michael Spinks
5. Jeff Chandler
6. Thomas Hearns
7. Alexis Arguello
8. Wilfredo Gomez
9. Hector Camacho
10. Eusebio Pedroza

1984

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Aaron Pryor
3. Larry Holmes
4. Eusebio Pedroza
5. Hector Camacho
6. Ray Leonard
6. Jeff Chandler
8. Michael Spinks
9. Thomas Hearns
10. Donald Curry

1985

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Hector Camacho
3. Michael Spinks
4. Donald Curry
5. Thomas Hearns
6. Barry McGuigan
7. Milton McCrory
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Pinklon Thomas
10. Larry Holmes

1986

KO Magazine
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Mike Tyson
3. Donald Curry
4. Thomas Hearns
5. Edwin Rosario
6. Azumah Nelson
6. Michael Spinks
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Hector Camacho

1988

KO Magazine
1. Mike Tyson
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Ray Leonard
5. Jeff Fenech
6. Michael Nunn
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Jung Koo Chang
9. Buddy McGirt
10. Sumbu Kalambay

1989

1. Mike Tyson
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Michael Nunn
5. Antonio Esparragoza
6. Meldrick Taylor
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Raul Perez
9. Virgil Hill
10. Marlon Starling

1990

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Michael Nunn
4. Antonio Esparragoza
5. Meldrick Taylor
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Mike Tyson
8. Raul Perez
9. Myung-Woo Yuh
10. Khaosai Galaxy

1992

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Terry Norris
4. Orlando Canizales
5. James (Buddy) McGirt
6. Riddick Bowe
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Sung-Kil Moon
9. Julian Jackson
10. James Toney

1993

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. James Toney
4. Michael Carbajal
5. Orlando Canizales
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Roy Jones Jr.
9. Kennedy McKinney
10. Yuri Arbachakov

1994

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Orlando Canizales
4. Ricardo Lopez
5. Humberto Gonzalez
6. Frankie Randall
7. Felix Trinidad
8. Gerald McClellan
9. Miguel Angel Gonzalez
10. Kevin Kelley

1995

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Ricardo Lopez
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Felix Trinidad
6. Yuri Arbachakov
7. Kostya Tszyu
8. Riddick Bowe
9. Marco Antonio Barrera
10. Terry Norris

1996

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Oscar De La Hoya
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Felix Trinidad
5. Ricardo Lopez
6. Junior Jones
7. Kostya Tszyu
8. Terry Norris
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Mark Johnson

1997

KO Magazine
1. Oscar De La Hoya
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Felix Trinidad
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Terry Norris
7. Junior Jones
8. Ricardo Lopez
9. Ike Quartey
10. Mark Johnson

1998

1. Oscar De La Hoya
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Felix Trinidad
5. Mark Johnson
6. Shane Mosley
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
9. Naseem Hamed
10. Johnny Tapia

1999

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
3. Felix Trinidad
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Shane Mosley
6. Mark Johnson
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Erik Morales
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Stevie Johnston

2000

1. Shane Mosley
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Roy Jones Jr.
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Diego Corrales
6. Naseem Hamed
7. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Erik Morales
10. Bernard Hopkins

2001

1. Shane Mosley
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Roy Jones Jr.
4. Marco Antonio Barrera
5. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
6. Felix Trinidad
7. Oscar De La Hoya
8. Ricardo Lopez
9. Kostya Tszyu
10. Erik Morales

2002

1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Roy Jones Jr.
3. Marco Antonio Barrera
4. Vernon Forrest
5. Oscar De La Hoya
6. Kostya Tszyu
7. Erik Morales
8. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Shane Mosley

2003

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Shane Mosley
4. Oscar De La Hoya
5. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Kostya Tszyu
8. Erik Morales
9. James Toney
10. Antonio Tarver

2004

1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
3. Kostya Tszyu
4. Ronald (Winky) Wright
5. Manny Pacquiao
6. Juan Manuel Marquez
7. Marco Antonio Barrera
8. Erik Morales
9. Glen Johnson
10. Antonio Tarver

2005

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Ronald (Winky) Wright
3. Marco Antonio Barrera
4. Ricky Hatton
5. Manny Pacquiao
6. Erik Morales
7. Juan Manuel Marquez
8. Rafael Marquez
9. Jose Luis Castillo
10. Zab Judah

2006

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Ronald (Winky) Wright
4. Jermain Taylor
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Marco Antonio Barrera
7. Rafael Marquez
8. Ricky Hatton
9. Jose Luis Castillo
10. Joe Calzaghe

2007

Doug Fischer - Maxboxing.com
1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. Juan Manuel Marquez
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Israel Vazquez/Rafael Marquez
8. Miguel Cotto
9. Ivan Calderon
10. Winky Wright

2008

1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Juan Manuel Marquez
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Israel Vazquez
6. Antonio Margarito
7. Rafael Marquez
8. Miguel Cotto
9. Ivan Calderon
10. Ricky Hatton

When I look at this list. I'm trying to think of matchups fighters in the p4p met up. Thanks for this info.

Gatti was exciting cause he took a beating in damn near every fight...:lol:

Gatti was exciting because he didn't quit or back down. Even when in the ring with better fighters he at least attempted to when. His management put him in fights that showcased his heart and talent. He was as great a fringe fighter could be. Not cause dude just took beatings. Because he was in fights that were exciting as hell. Dude learned near the end to box more and not take so much punishment. That allowed him to fight a few years longer and earn that payday with PBF. If more fighters with better talent fought with his heart we would see boxing fall off so much.
 

Zeferino

Rising Star
Platinum Member
I was searching for the article I can seem to find it...but it shows the influence African Americans has had on Boxing & how since we were ALLOWED to box how many belts we won & how we dominated P4P lists....trust bruh it surpassed many other races & nationalities...


What´s causing me to be unsure about that is those minimum weights below 140 which have mostly been dominated by Asians and Latinos. There have been a whole lot of champs down there so I´m not sure the actual total belt count among nationalities and/or races would tip in the favor of African Americans.
 
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