for all you 9/11 conspiracy "theorists"
- Thread starter sitai
- Start date
Sitai,
I flipped through this whole post and I have to say:...Anyone who truly believes that a plane hijacked by Islamic Extremists with boxcutters crashed one of them into the Pentagon is a moron.
Sideways or not, there was no evidence of an airliner at the scene of the crash. Not one piece. Not one tire, engine, wing, nose,..nothing. Just fire and a broken wall. If anyone believes that it's possible for a jet of that size to simply vanish into the wall and melt away all luggage, people, landing gear, blackbox, and windows, then I have some beachfront property in Denver I wanna sell you!!
WTC7 wasn't "rumored" to have been said to have "pulled it". There is video of the owner straight up saying it on camera. No editing. No doctored vids. He's straight up saying he pulled it. You have the only statement I've heard that says that the WTC fell over far enough to knock WTC7 down. No one else had said that.
I was in Brooklyn when this happened. I had visited the WTC MANY, MANY times in my lifetime. I know the area pretty well. Have you seen the distance between where 7 fell and 1 and 2 fell? If 7 fell from rubble from 1 and 2, then why not anything else in it's path?
C'mon man... There's something fishy going on and the U.S. government is waiting for stooges with "debunking" theories to come up so they can jedi-mind trick their asses into believing why 9/11 happened just as they told you. They said a plane crashed into the Pentagon and although there's NO PROOF of it, some of you actually believe it. Maybe you hate Islamic people? Either way, the government thinks you're a bunch of idiots who will fall for anything.
Remember...I'm sure when the Tuskeegee experiments occurred, the good ol' US of A government put out their version of the "truth" and many of you would've believed it. After all...the USA government would NEVER infect Black people with syphilis on purpose, would they??
-The Zodiac
I flipped through this whole post and I have to say:...Anyone who truly believes that a plane hijacked by Islamic Extremists with boxcutters crashed one of them into the Pentagon is a moron.
Sideways or not, there was no evidence of an airliner at the scene of the crash. Not one piece. Not one tire, engine, wing, nose,..nothing. Just fire and a broken wall. If anyone believes that it's possible for a jet of that size to simply vanish into the wall and melt away all luggage, people, landing gear, blackbox, and windows, then I have some beachfront property in Denver I wanna sell you!!
WTC7 wasn't "rumored" to have been said to have "pulled it". There is video of the owner straight up saying it on camera. No editing. No doctored vids. He's straight up saying he pulled it. You have the only statement I've heard that says that the WTC fell over far enough to knock WTC7 down. No one else had said that.
I was in Brooklyn when this happened. I had visited the WTC MANY, MANY times in my lifetime. I know the area pretty well. Have you seen the distance between where 7 fell and 1 and 2 fell? If 7 fell from rubble from 1 and 2, then why not anything else in it's path?
C'mon man... There's something fishy going on and the U.S. government is waiting for stooges with "debunking" theories to come up so they can jedi-mind trick their asses into believing why 9/11 happened just as they told you. They said a plane crashed into the Pentagon and although there's NO PROOF of it, some of you actually believe it. Maybe you hate Islamic people? Either way, the government thinks you're a bunch of idiots who will fall for anything.
Remember...I'm sure when the Tuskeegee experiments occurred, the good ol' US of A government put out their version of the "truth" and many of you would've believed it. After all...the USA government would NEVER infect Black people with syphilis on purpose, would they??
-The Zodiac
bigirl, I saw you responding to Dr. False in the other thread, dont bother wasting your time on him. He has already made up his mind and will foolishly listen to anything the government tells him. He is a lost cause and is just as bad as Sitai but not as transparent.
bigirl said:whats up with these "scholarly" debunkers who can't even answer a basic question? how do they pass school?
Well, to answer THAT question, I would have to believe he was actually IN school....
He is like a Repulican, which are like Borgs...
They get "speaking points" that cover all the hot topics.
If the question isn't covered in their monthly newsletter, they don't know how to answer it.
He will be back. He has to ask someone higher up on the chain.
The analysis by the pilotsfor911truth of the flight data is pretty damaging to the official version version. Read it for yourselves.
PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
03/26/07
PILOTS FOR 9/11 TRUTH
www.pilotsfor911truth.org
Contact: Robert Balsamo
e-mail: pilots@pilotsfor911truth.org
OFFICIAL ACCOUNT OF 9/11 FLIGHT CONTRADICTED BY GOVERNMENT'S OWN DATA
Pilots for 9/11 Truth, an international organization of pilots and aviation professionals, petitioned the National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB) via the Freedom of Information Act to obtain their 2002 report, "Flight Path Study-American Airlines Flight 77", consisting of a Comma Separated Value (CSV) file and Flight Path Animation, allegedly derived from Flight 77's Flight Data Recorder (FDR).
The data provided by the NTSB contradict the 9/11 Commission Report in several significant ways:
The NTSB Flight Path Animation approach path and altitude does not support official events.
All Altitude data shows the aircraft at least 300 feet too high to have struck the light poles.
The rate of descent data is in direct conflict with the aircraft being able to impact the light poles and be captured in the Dept of Defense "5 Frames" video of an object traveling nearly parallel with the Pentagon lawn.
The record of data stops at least one second prior to official impact time.
If data trends are continued, the aircraft altitude would have been at least 100 feet too high to have hit the Pentagon.
In August, 2006, members of Pilots for 9/11 Truth received these documents from the NTSB and began a close analysis of the data they contain. After expert review and cross check, Pilots for 9/11 Truth has concluded that the information in these NTSB documents does not support, and in some instances factually contradicts, the official government position that American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001.
According to the 9/11 Commission Report, which relied heavily upon the NTSB Flight Path Study, American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon at 9:37:46 AM on the morning of September 11, 2001. However, the reported impact time according to the NTSB Flight Path Study is 09:37:45. Also according to reports, American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon and by doing so, struck down 5 light poles on Highway 27 in its path to the west wall.
The information provided by the NTSB does not support the 9/11 Commission Report of American Airlines Flight 77 impact with the Pentagon.
Pilots for 9/11 Truth is committed to discovering the truth surrounding the events of September 11, 2001. We have contacted both the NTSB and the FBI regarding these and other inconsistencies. To date, they have refused to comment on, correct, refute, retract or offer side-letters that might explain the discrepancies between what they claim are the data extracted from the FDR of AA Flight 77 and the official story alleging its crash into the Pentagon.
As concerned citizens and professionals in the aviation industry, Pilots for 9/11 Truth asks, why have these discrepancies not been addressed by agencies within the United States Government? Why have they falsely represented their own data to the American people? Pilots for 9/11 Truth takes the position that an official government inquiry into these discrepancies is warranted and long overdue. We call upon our fellow citizens to write to their Congressional representatives to inform them of these discrepancies and call for an immediate investigation into this matter. For more information please visit pilotsfor911truth.org.
Signed:
Robert Balsamo
4000+ Total Flight Time
Former:
Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines
Glen Stanish
15,000+ Total Flight Time
American Airlines, ATA, TWA, Continental
Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
Former Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
John Lear
Son of Bill Lear
Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation
More than 40 years of Flying
19,000+ Total Flight Time
Captain Jeff Latas
USAF (ret)
Captain - JetBlue Airways
Ted Muga
Naval Aviator - Retired Commander, USNR
Col Robert Bowman USAF (ret)
Directed all the �Star Wars� programs under Presidents Ford and Carter - 101 combat missions
Alfons Olszewski
Founder Veterans For Truth
US Army (ret)
Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief
Robin Hordon
Former Boston Center Controller
Commercial Pilot
John Panarelli
Friend and fellow aviator of John Ogonowski - Capt. AA #11
11,000+ Total Flight Time
Eastern Metro, Braniff, Ryan International, Emery
Worldwide, Polar Air Cargo
Lt. Colonel Shelton F. Lankford
United States Marine Corps (ret)
10,000+ Total Flight Time
303 Combat Missions
Captain Dan Govatos
10,000+ Total Flight Time
Former Chief Pilot of Casino Express airlines
Director of Operations Training at Polar Air
George Nelson
Colonel USAF (Ret.)
Licensed Commercial Pilot and Aircraft Mechanic
Dennis Spear
Army Aviator (ret)
7000+ Total Flight Time Operations Officer, Aviation Safety Officer
Captain Joe H. Ferguson
30,000+ Total Flight Time (ret) USAF (ret)
For complete member list please visit http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
03/26/07
PILOTS FOR 9/11 TRUTH
www.pilotsfor911truth.org
Contact: Robert Balsamo
e-mail: pilots@pilotsfor911truth.org
OFFICIAL ACCOUNT OF 9/11 FLIGHT CONTRADICTED BY GOVERNMENT'S OWN DATA
Pilots for 9/11 Truth, an international organization of pilots and aviation professionals, petitioned the National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB) via the Freedom of Information Act to obtain their 2002 report, "Flight Path Study-American Airlines Flight 77", consisting of a Comma Separated Value (CSV) file and Flight Path Animation, allegedly derived from Flight 77's Flight Data Recorder (FDR).
The data provided by the NTSB contradict the 9/11 Commission Report in several significant ways:
The NTSB Flight Path Animation approach path and altitude does not support official events.
All Altitude data shows the aircraft at least 300 feet too high to have struck the light poles.
The rate of descent data is in direct conflict with the aircraft being able to impact the light poles and be captured in the Dept of Defense "5 Frames" video of an object traveling nearly parallel with the Pentagon lawn.
The record of data stops at least one second prior to official impact time.
If data trends are continued, the aircraft altitude would have been at least 100 feet too high to have hit the Pentagon.
In August, 2006, members of Pilots for 9/11 Truth received these documents from the NTSB and began a close analysis of the data they contain. After expert review and cross check, Pilots for 9/11 Truth has concluded that the information in these NTSB documents does not support, and in some instances factually contradicts, the official government position that American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001.
According to the 9/11 Commission Report, which relied heavily upon the NTSB Flight Path Study, American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon at 9:37:46 AM on the morning of September 11, 2001. However, the reported impact time according to the NTSB Flight Path Study is 09:37:45. Also according to reports, American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon and by doing so, struck down 5 light poles on Highway 27 in its path to the west wall.
The information provided by the NTSB does not support the 9/11 Commission Report of American Airlines Flight 77 impact with the Pentagon.
Pilots for 9/11 Truth is committed to discovering the truth surrounding the events of September 11, 2001. We have contacted both the NTSB and the FBI regarding these and other inconsistencies. To date, they have refused to comment on, correct, refute, retract or offer side-letters that might explain the discrepancies between what they claim are the data extracted from the FDR of AA Flight 77 and the official story alleging its crash into the Pentagon.
As concerned citizens and professionals in the aviation industry, Pilots for 9/11 Truth asks, why have these discrepancies not been addressed by agencies within the United States Government? Why have they falsely represented their own data to the American people? Pilots for 9/11 Truth takes the position that an official government inquiry into these discrepancies is warranted and long overdue. We call upon our fellow citizens to write to their Congressional representatives to inform them of these discrepancies and call for an immediate investigation into this matter. For more information please visit pilotsfor911truth.org.
Signed:
Robert Balsamo
4000+ Total Flight Time
Former:
Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines
Glen Stanish
15,000+ Total Flight Time
American Airlines, ATA, TWA, Continental
Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
Former Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
John Lear
Son of Bill Lear
Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation
More than 40 years of Flying
19,000+ Total Flight Time
Captain Jeff Latas
USAF (ret)
Captain - JetBlue Airways
Ted Muga
Naval Aviator - Retired Commander, USNR
Col Robert Bowman USAF (ret)
Directed all the �Star Wars� programs under Presidents Ford and Carter - 101 combat missions
Alfons Olszewski
Founder Veterans For Truth
US Army (ret)
Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief
Robin Hordon
Former Boston Center Controller
Commercial Pilot
John Panarelli
Friend and fellow aviator of John Ogonowski - Capt. AA #11
11,000+ Total Flight Time
Eastern Metro, Braniff, Ryan International, Emery
Worldwide, Polar Air Cargo
Lt. Colonel Shelton F. Lankford
United States Marine Corps (ret)
10,000+ Total Flight Time
303 Combat Missions
Captain Dan Govatos
10,000+ Total Flight Time
Former Chief Pilot of Casino Express airlines
Director of Operations Training at Polar Air
George Nelson
Colonel USAF (Ret.)
Licensed Commercial Pilot and Aircraft Mechanic
Dennis Spear
Army Aviator (ret)
7000+ Total Flight Time Operations Officer, Aviation Safety Officer
Captain Joe H. Ferguson
30,000+ Total Flight Time (ret) USAF (ret)
For complete member list please visit http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
ok im gonna leave this one message and im gonna go...now i my self beleive in cinspiracy theories and stuff int hat catagory........now what i gotta sya is i have seen the pictures, videos, etc. etc. etc. now wut im sayin now is its all called selective hearing and a thing called selective veiwing, though some people may follow the herd and say the same thing as the others you must look at it this way, the government its self trys to rattle our veiws on life so in term:THEY ARE TRYING TO TURN ALL AMERICANS INTO SHEEP SO WE OUR SELF CAN NOW VEIW THEIR OPINIONS ON HOW THINGS ARE DONE. Ok let me elaborate because i posted this on another bored where people talked about the eternal questions and things like that also at my college, when americans feel that the government is lying to them then they can start to force us to believe what they want us to beleive.......hmm.......lets say we all see a bright light in the sky and it crashes into a car smack in the middle of new york city and its a ship that for some reason doesnt look its from earth....now the government has made us beleive there MAY be life out in space......now because of this we will look for a explaination as all humans do we try to rationalize things its human nature... bush could come on the tv and say that it was a rock and now because of that he will make us feel like we have been lied to and now invest money (EX:WEBSITES, CLICK ADDS, ETC.) to search for the real truth......now that we feel that we could be in danger or be in the process of finding literally a second earth we give the government money..though we dont see it they are controlling us through the media and no matter how you look at it all technological advances will make us more like the neaderthals of bc while we all can no longer get up because we have become to fat or strained out on drugs through the birth or through the use of them.......though most of us dont look at it the government is also using the media to force drugs onto children....something called subliminal messages......im gonna stop for now on this one but im gonna say this even though some of you may look at this and say oh hell naw i aint gonna read this or you are on this line now are either saying that i don know what im talking about or probably saying something else i dont know but what im saying is its all called reverse psychology....if something is told to you so many times and the evidence shows something else then it will make you into what they said people are becoming sheep........but it all depends........are the the one sheep that strays from the heard and may even fight the dog with your knowledge or are you gonna follow what the other sheep do.?...im done
D
dannyroman
Guest
YOUR GOTDAMN RUNON SENTENCES ARE SENDING ME SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES((GO TO SLEEP))!!!!!ghost216 said:
B-R-E-A-K THAT ISH UP.
ghost216 said:
WHATS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD....R U TRYING TO COVER SOMEBODIES ASS OR SOMETHING.
UR COMING UO WITH INFO THEY SAME WAY "conspiracy theorists" COME UP WITH INFO.
SO WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH?
PERSONALLY I BELIEVE THE USA HAD ALOT TO DO WITH 911.
IF IT ISNT CLEAR BY NOW...THEN I DONT KNOW WHAT TO SAY.
ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD STILL BELIEVE THE BIN LADEN/SADAM HUSSEN STORY AFTER SEEING ALL THE SHIT WE'RE GOING THROUGH NOW AND THE SHIT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST YEARS.
MAN WAKE UP.....
DONT BE AN IDIOT ALL UR LIFE
UR COMING UO WITH INFO THEY SAME WAY "conspiracy theorists" COME UP WITH INFO.
SO WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH?
PERSONALLY I BELIEVE THE USA HAD ALOT TO DO WITH 911.
IF IT ISNT CLEAR BY NOW...THEN I DONT KNOW WHAT TO SAY.
ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD STILL BELIEVE THE BIN LADEN/SADAM HUSSEN STORY AFTER SEEING ALL THE SHIT WE'RE GOING THROUGH NOW AND THE SHIT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST YEARS.
MAN WAKE UP.....
DONT BE AN IDIOT ALL UR LIFE
All this back and forth BULLSHIT is what's known as "The Falling Snow Syndrome" where the ground is "The Cold Hard Facts" and the snow is "The Coverup." Once the snow falls it covers the ground. The more snow the more coverup. After the snow stops falling "The Seekers Of Truth" start digging. By the time they reach the ground to "uncover the truth" all they see is what they thought they would: the ground. They were so busy uncovering they didn't realize the truth was gone with each shovel full of snow. But it's realized too late cause the snow has melted and all that's left is conspiracy. That kind of truth is as consistant as melted snow: water. And none of the shit spouted by ALL the "geniuses" posting here can't hold a glass of water to the actual truth.
Sounds convoluted? You bet. Now step back and objectively read all the posts in this thread AGAIN and then honestly tell me that it's about as straight as a Coney Island rollercoaster
Sounds convoluted? You bet. Now step back and objectively read all the posts in this thread AGAIN and then honestly tell me that it's about as straight as a Coney Island rollercoaster
S
Sangria
Guest
bigirl said:Time magazine is not a legitimate source. It is Illuminati owned and controlled and is one of the major parts of their mind control system. It seems they have you exactly where they want you
i know of whom you are addressing. but it FAR beyond the illuminati. the illuminati are puppets
S
Sangria
Guest
why is everybody pressing for an opinion when EVERYBODY is posting links and other peoples research.
i dont know what really happened.
but i must admit that loose change 2 was a poor attempt to convince me of their theory. if that video was equivalent to a college research paper (or even high school) it wouldve got a fat red F
i dont know what really happened.
but i must admit that loose change 2 was a poor attempt to convince me of their theory. if that video was equivalent to a college research paper (or even high school) it wouldve got a fat red F
Ya know guys, (esp. bigirl, smokedcane, and mr. jody). I have to commend you guys on your persistence to task. There are others on the board who drop constant knowledge and who ACTUALLY apply the Socratic method in examining information when constructing argument (eewwll, QueEx,). There are more of course, but that's off the top.
ANYWAY, I'm glad you folks continue to fight the good fight. However, I must say, I ceased participating in these 'discussions' on the basis that i find CRITICAL THINKING & ANALYSIS isn't available to the majority on the board.
You can drop jewel after irrefutable jewel of fact OR present masterfully articulated and congruent LOGIC . . . . and ALL you get is blowhard casual dismissals(as bigirl has outlined earlier), red herrings & straw-man introductions. And not to mention, heavily opinionated meandering rationale replete with ad hominem substantiation. OR THE WORST . . . they just SILENTLY DISAPPEAR! All this purposed to obscure and evade the GLARING GAPING holes in their assertions.
I have concluded that many of these topics are brought up by 'kids' who can't think for themselves(or maybe just 'cutting their teeth' in debate), and are 'using' YOUR knowledge outside of the board to serve their own interests.
Arguing with fools seems to bear bitter rotten fruit . . . only because they NEVER concede and LEARN. It's almost as if they HATE you for clearing up their ignorance. A simple 'thanks, i never thought of it like that' -or- wow, my aperture is a little wider now, etc, etc. In any case, utter senselessness.
Anyway . . another one bites it. Props.
JG
ANYWAY, I'm glad you folks continue to fight the good fight. However, I must say, I ceased participating in these 'discussions' on the basis that i find CRITICAL THINKING & ANALYSIS isn't available to the majority on the board.
You can drop jewel after irrefutable jewel of fact OR present masterfully articulated and congruent LOGIC . . . . and ALL you get is blowhard casual dismissals(as bigirl has outlined earlier), red herrings & straw-man introductions. And not to mention, heavily opinionated meandering rationale replete with ad hominem substantiation. OR THE WORST . . . they just SILENTLY DISAPPEAR! All this purposed to obscure and evade the GLARING GAPING holes in their assertions.
I have concluded that many of these topics are brought up by 'kids' who can't think for themselves(or maybe just 'cutting their teeth' in debate), and are 'using' YOUR knowledge outside of the board to serve their own interests.
Arguing with fools seems to bear bitter rotten fruit . . . only because they NEVER concede and LEARN. It's almost as if they HATE you for clearing up their ignorance. A simple 'thanks, i never thought of it like that' -or- wow, my aperture is a little wider now, etc, etc. In any case, utter senselessness.
Anyway . . another one bites it. Props.
JG
bigirl said:
please forgive me for NOT clarifying myself. See its Saturday, and I have MORE things to do than to answer an online bisexual girl's question on a porn site. Since I do have nothing else to do at this time, I'll take time to answer your question.
To clarify, "they" meaning anyone who have POWER, to get rid of Bush. Think about it, if Bush had 9-11 planned, isn't that an impeachable offense? I mean this is what its about right? Since no one wants to remember what happen during the Clinton Administration...
this nigga's cointelpro!
How many other fourms did you hit up with that company line bullshit?
part 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8167808345288870242&q=painful+deceptions+eric&hl=en
part 2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1014508831406431975
But ya'll cats really aint ready for these. Most of yall have no knowledge of this info.
http://iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmithInterviewsBollyn.html
http://iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Bollyn28Dec2006.html
How many other fourms did you hit up with that company line bullshit?
part 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8167808345288870242&q=painful+deceptions+eric&hl=en
part 2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1014508831406431975
But ya'll cats really aint ready for these. Most of yall have no knowledge of this info.
http://iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmithInterviewsBollyn.html
http://iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Bollyn28Dec2006.html
bigirl said:
popular mechanics has now become a "reliable source" on world news and politics
I saw a show where popular mechanics was trying to defend the argument for how the towers fell, and they looked like fucking fools!!!!! A high school student would have done a better job, it was a joke!
pyramidbuilder said:
That's because Popular Mechanics is a joke. Here's the link to Popular Mechanics debunking themselves. In one interview on "Coast To Coast AM" with George Noory, Benjamin Chertoff says "Pull It" is a demolition term for demolishing a building, then on the "Charles Goyette show" Research Editor Davin Coburn says the term "Pull It" is not a demolition term. So which is it guys? Is it a demolition term or not?
http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/debunking_popular_mechanics.mp3
A
a45and299
Guest
dannyroman said:
post is crazy, gotta bump
xxironxx said:
John_Gault said:
Exactly,
Reminds me of a similar experience in a thread called:
No-Al-Qaeda attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11...why?
http://198.65.131.81/board/showthread.php?t=169094
I had to come in and clean up the posts made by BigUnc.
After he asked me a series of questions where he readily admitted he was not aware of the information, He then goes on an ad-hominen attack and THEN (get this) tries to reference an article he read about a group called PCC(gun running organization in Sao Paulo)..which it was obvious that he didn't really know anything about the organization. Furthermore, the reference to that group was completely irrelevant to the discussion and could no way be correlated to the argument.
Well, unfortunately for him, I actually live in Sao Paulo and was here during the PCC attacks.
But to get back on topic and support to your point. The problem is not lack of information. Many posters on here have obviously referenced their fair share of data. However, of all the fallacious argumentative styles I have seen here, I think the biggest issue is CONFUSING CORRELATION AND CAUSATION. And it comes back to what you said: the lack of critical thinking and thorough analysis. However, I think it really is the lack of a good logical foundation. I think for the most part is that people do not understand how to logically decipher the principles of an argument to determine what is logical and thus either is true, plausible, probable..or then even an axiom... or then not just that something is false.. but why. It is a skill that many people have not learned. But getting back to the point of correlation and causation. People take information that on a very surface base level may seem to support their cause, but a thorough evaluation easily shows that even though the data correlates, it has not been proven to be directly linked to the cause of their proposed effect. It is either the lack of an analytical framework or laziness to causes people to prematurely jump to some of the conclusion that are made..and they use the word "fact" when they really should be using "supposition".
Last edited:
eewwll said:Exactly,
Reminds me of a similar experience in a thread called:
No-Al-Qaeda attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11...why?
http://198.65.131.81/board/showthread.php?t=169094
I had to come in and clean up the posts made by BigUnc.
After he asked me a series of questions where he readily admitted he was not aware of the information, He then goes on an ad-hominen attack and THEN (get this) tries to reference an article he read about a group called PCC(gun running organization in Sao Paulo)..which it was obvious that he didn't really know anything about the organization. Furthermore, the reference to that group was completely irrelevant to the discussion and could no way be correlated to the argument.
Well, unfortunately for him, I actually live in Sao Paulo and was here during the PCC attacks.
But to get back on topic and support to your point. The problem is not lack of information. Many posters on here have obviously referenced their fair share of data. However, of all the fallacious argumentative styles I have seen here, I think the biggest issue is CONFUSING CORRELATION AND CAUSATION. And it comes back to what you said: the lack of critical thinking and thorough analysis. However, I think it really is the lack of a good logical foundation. I think for the most part is that people do not understand how to logically decipher the principles of an argument to determine what is logical and thus either is true, plausible, probable..or then even an axiom... or then not just that something is false.. but why. It is a skill that many people have not learned. But getting back to the point of correlation and causation. People take information that on a very surface base level may seem to support their cause, but a thorough evaluation easily shows that even though the data correlates, it has not been proven to be directly linked to the cause of their proposed effect. It is either the lack of an analytical framework or laziness to causes people to prematurely jump to some of the conclusion that are made..and they use the word "fact" when they really should be using "supposition".
Still on that shit dude. Like i said the Governor of Rio doesn't see things the way you do. Your arguement is with him and other officials in Brazil. Some of the most intelligent people I know are also some of the dumbest mofos your ever going to meet. You seem to think you know all and see all. Fine by me whatever makes you feel better dude. Pretty fucked up you came in here trying to hijack this thread and continue a discussion from another thread. Let it go your not going to change my mind unless you come up with some reason why I should disregard the reports from government officials in the country your in and believe you.
BigUnc said:
Like I told you before, if Mayor César Maia is speaking about the current of organized gangs in Brasil..he is certainly speaking about his own city Rio de Janeiro..and not Sao Paulo. Rio and Sao Paulo deal with two completely different problem sets and that effects of those problems: Drug trafficking vs Gun trafficking. Don't try to do the "appeal to authority". Plus your "appeal to authority" is a fallacious extension because that "PCC controls half a Brasil" is not an argument port forth by Brasilian officials.
The idea that PCC controls "half the country" is about as plausible as saying the Bloods control "half the U.S.". PCC is not even as influential as Hamas in Lebanon.
You simply don't know what you are talking about. Brasilian officials don't agree with your baseless statements either. Take a course in Portuguese, and then actually take a sniff of the country before you begin to argue with someone who speaks the language, lives in Sao Paulo, and was actually here during the attacks in question. Also, work on your logic base and be definitive. If PCC control" half of brasil" what do they control.... politics, economy, ..what? you fucking momo. You are a perfect case of what John_Gault was saying. Instead of saying..thanks.. I didn't know that..and keep it moving... you want to argue with a person who is infinitely more equipped to discuss this subject. You can only "ask" in this situation..not "tell" as you don't know shit about Brasil.. a country I happen to live it.
Not to mention the fact that I live in the city in question as actually get the 411 on the PCC situation as it happened right here on BGOL. PCC is not even remotely as powerful as you claimed. And that 2 trillion dollar a year number is about as baseless as they get. PCC, in terms of revenue, is a small organization. In in terms of global criminal organization, it is small.
Pablo Escabar and his criminal organization "control half of Colombia". PCC is a pion organization and has no reach outside of Sao Paulo and does not even "control" that city..much less the country.
I am not trying to "change your mind". I am simply cosigning the sentiment of John_Gault. A lot of people tend to refrain from contributing because of the reasons he mentioned in his post. And you fit right into that mold in that last thread. This is not hijacking a thread..it is extending what John_Gault said, some posters on here display the lack of a deductive framework for doing real analytics.
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eewwll said:
Damn dude you claimed I was reading comprehension challenged. Well welcome to the club. I never said they controlled half the country. I said they controlled half of Sao Paulo,which came from the article in Vanity Fair. The 2 trillion number was an estimate of criminal gang activity worldwide not in Brazil alone. You claim the PCC is a pion organization with no reach outside the city. If thats so why did the National Government offer to send in the army to quell this pion organization but said request was denied by the locals for political reasons. The March issue has not been archived yet but i can refer you to this.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9158674&ft=1&f=5
John_Gault said:
Jesus.....
BigUnc said:
Since when did VANITY FAIR become the beacon by which the political and social situations of a nation and/or city is to be judged.
The author of that Article, William Langewiesche, is a U.S based journalist and lives in France and has no expertise on Brasil.
He spun the story to make it for it sale. First, the PCC was not a fucking "soccer team" that formed in the prison
It also is NOT the sign of a greater "trend" of "non existent" government in Brasil and other "sao paulo like" cities in the world. It was an isolated series of events that were directly related to the government moving their leaders to prisons in the interior of Brasil. All that other bullshit he claims was spun to sell a story...to make it marketable. I just listened to that interview of his you posted by the way. I challenge you to find a Brasilian supports his suppositions. If you want to know about Sao Paulo. Read an article from a Paulisto (Sao Paulo resident) that lives in the city and actually understands it. They are much more qualified to discuss Sao Paulo and PCC. You will not find ANY Brasilian journalist that would substantiate a statement that PCC "control half of Sao Paulo". They are a gun running prison-born organization that violently repels..nothing more.nothing less.
First off, the fact that President Lula extended assistance to Sao Paulo for the attacks by PCC does not presuppose that PCC controls half the city. Remember what John_Gault spoke about in terms of LOGIC. Your reasoning is fallacious and the data source faulty by its nature. What it spoke for is that a gun running organization, has the means to inflict heavy damage on a under-supplied police force in a country that had 55k murders last year. PCC murders do not represent any significant percentage of the murders in Brasil or Sao Paulo specifically. Also, a majority of the non-familial murders in Sao Paulo are also related to drug trafficking..which the Rio gangs have control over in Sao Paulo as well. What Lula did is do what any Federal Government does when a local government is having a problem with a specific issue: extend federal assist. Don't substitute an isolated spree of crimes with continues situation in Sao Paulo.
To say that Capone controlled "half of Chicago" in the 30s would have some validity...not PCC in Sao Paulo.
Please understand that "Vanity Fair" is in the business of selling magazines. Magazines tend to "sensationalize" news to make it marketable. It is even easier to do when hawking off news to an English speaking geographically challenged American market who don't speak Portuguese and know very little about the country in question. This is the equivalent of a Brasilian reading ONE print article during the the Katrina incident and assuming that all Black People are looters and become uncivilized based on sensationalized biased journalism that does not represent the facts.
PCC is nothing but a gun-trafficking organization that is a little over 10 years old. It is particularly a "prison-gang" meaning that a majority of its members and leaders are currently in Prison. The latest attacks were an attempt to persuade the government from not separating the leadership and putting them separate prisons in the interior. They wanted to destroy the CRP andde moralize the government. Compared to the drug-trafficking organizations in Rio, the enterprise of PCC is considering extremely small and compares to the revenues produced by the drug traffickers in Rio. PCC has no control over any areas besides gun running and PCC did not launch some coup over other gangs to take over organized crime in Sao Paulo.
The PCC has no considerable influence in drug trafficking, more sophisticated schemes like laudering, no revenues source besides gun trafficking, no political influence, and a very small member base.
Tell me exactly how such an organization "control half of Sao Paulo". Hamas is an example of a organization that controls sectors of a country in Lebanon....not PCC.
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eewwll said:
If you have a problem with what dude said take it up with him. I've read what you have to say and I've heard and read what he has to say. Attempting to argue with me about it is an exercise in futility. Like I said give it up theres nothing else to be gained by this neither you nor him is going to move off square one. My only interest in this was from the global implications they touched on. What actually goes on in Sao Paulo or Rio I really don't give a fuck.
BigUnc said:
If what goes on in Sao Paulo or Rio is no interest of you, you should not have have introduced the fallacious information to the thread in the first place. You introduced it. I didn't. I only thing I did, as with those other posts in the previous thread, is point out in the errors in it. You used HIS suppositions to support your argument, so you are accountable for it. Plain and simple. This response, and your others, are just a form of back-peddling. If the initial assertions this particular journalist made are fallacious on the local level (sao paulo), it SHOULD make one seriously questions his assertions on an international level.
eewwll said:
Your claiming the reporters information is fallacious with nothing other than your own assertions. You claim there are errors but have nothing but your own assertions to prove it.In other words because you say so. The reporter says one thing you say the polar opposite. Zero sum game.I'll take infomation as it comes from any source and make my own judement on it and you can believe I won't make that judgement based on the assertions of ONE PERSON regardless of how fervent they are in what they believe. I'll repeat again i came across this because of an interest in criminal gangs, jihadists, guerrilla movements and militias worldwide.i'm not here to get any kind of reputation or any such thing. Just putting information out there for people to do whatever they please with it and soaking up as much info as I can and adding it to my knowledge base. If my participation in this message board bothers you in some way that you have to evoke my screen name in other threads maybe you need to check yourself brother I'm not going anywhere.It seems to me you try to discredit people in the eyes of others for no other reason than you don't like what they have to say. Thats fine plenty of people like that in the world who attempt to raise their stature by tearing others down. If you have something else to say then i would suggest you post it in the other thread so this thread can get back on topic.
mrjody said:
Ding ding ding, you hit the bell on that one. if it aint a newletter they parrot their talking points from, its junkies like rush oxyhead limbaugh or or don anus and his closet kkk azz.......
they are the reasons those guys make so much money, they listen to them like they are some kind of prophet, I mean religiously loyal listeners, really good fuckin sheep.......... easy to sell shyt too, mean big advertising dollars for these clowns...
these are the people that make a good case for eugenics!!!!!!
BigUnc said:
Riiiiight. I told you the facts. Below are facts. I am not making assertions. I am telling you Facts. These are facts without me even dissecting them and telling you what they mean.
Fact: there were over 55k murders in Brasil last year.
Fact: A majority of non-family and friend related crimes and murders were committed by Drug Traffickers and are related to the drug industry. Not gun trafficking
Fact: In membership and revenue: PCC is NOT even the largest organized crime unit in Brasil...not by a long shot.
Fact: Militias and organized gangs are more prominent in Rio's favelas then they are in those of Sao Paulo, mainly because of the differences among the cities' police forces, favelas and criminal organizations. Police in Rio are not as well-paid as those in Sao Paulo, and more of them reside in favelas and living in the favelas endangers policemen, who are often there alongside the very criminals they pursue. Rio is known as the violent city in Brasil... Sao Paulo rarely has incidents like what happened with PCC last year.
Fact: The PCC has no influence outside of gun trafficking. They have no influence over the highly lucrative drug trade, laundering, or politics. So how can they control "half of Sao Paulo".
Actually.. Rio gangs.. because control the more lucrative drug trade, even in Sao Paulo, like Comando Vermelho, Amigos dos Amigos, and Terceiro Comando Puro are more powerful. PCC is a prison-gangs that traffics guns.. but they don't even "control the streets" in Sao Paulo because in order for them to sell their guns, they dont need to "control the streets" like drug trafficking gangs. The drug traffickers rule Brasil. PCC is just exceptionally violent.. but don't confuse violence with " control"..it is an error or correlation in this case.
The above are not personal assertions or suppositions. Those are just the facts sir. Be able to make a distinction between the two. I listened to that interview you posted. That guy NEVER listed any fact or supported it with data that supported any theory that PCC control Sao Paulo...that it even control the criminal underworld in Sao Paulo outside of gun trafficking.and the gun trafficking industry here is NOT as lucrative as the drug traficking industry based on any estimates...he just babbled a bunch of conclusions that he devised after doing a quick trip to Sao Paulo and attempting to summarize the criminal undercurrent. Unfortunately, and maybe for the sake of promoting his impending books, he came to erroneous conclusions that sensationalize the organization and that he spun to fit into his thesis he is trying to promote for his commercial endevours.
I am not trying to cut you down. I am trying to get your to see through the sensationalizing and look at the facts and see that the facts directly contradict the Vanity Fair article.
Your participation on this message board does not involve me. This is nothing but healthy debating to me.
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