Featured Instrumentation in Black Music..did rap kill the guitar/bass solo?

[geechiedan]

And will it come back??

remember when black music had the guitar, bass, piano hell even FLUTE solo?? Remember when people used to talk about bootsie and jesse johnson and ernie isley?

when was the last time you heard decent featured instrumentation in popular black music? It seems like music serves the vocals rather than being a partnership.

Did rap music kill featured solo instrumentation in black music?

 

[HAR125LEM]

YO!

I was thinking about this as I've been watching old episodes of "SOUL TRAIN" on BOUNCE TV this morning. I vividly remember its debut in the 70s. Watched it through the early 90s. The show is an instant time capsule of Black Culture and Music. I watch it every weekend on BOUNCE.

And those of us "Old-Heads" should be thanking BOUNCE for broadcasting the show...IN ORDER! It's like tracking Black Culture over periods of time.


People can make jokes all they want about the show. But really knowledgeable peeps will notice the evolution to pratical de-evolution of Black Music and Culture on this show. It's focus for the last few months has been going through the 80s. You can see how Black Music started going from bands to basically choreography and just walking up and down the stage.

It's not that Rap/Hip-Hop killed (Black) Instrumentation so much as kids wanting to take the easy way out getting into music with stars in their eyes over a period of time. That's one of the reasons why I hate a lot s of these talents show on TV now (though I do watch "THE VOICE". I like the judges and the show's format).

Like I tell people....

I was in Radio for about 15 years.

When I moved to the Pacific Northwest in the early 90s, it was just the beginning of Grunge. And all these White kids were in their garages practicing, starting their own bands, etc. It was like Black Kids just gave up on instruments and just wanted to Rap instead.

My other gripe Gee is that up to the 80s, we had a myriad of music to follow. From Funk - R&B - Soul - Jazz - Rap/Hip-Hop. Now Blacks (for the most part) are only trapped into soulless R&B and Rap. Whereas Whites still have Rock - Folk - Gothic - EDM - and have been taking over Jazz, Rap and R&B in the last few decades. You rarely see a Black Face on Jazz magazines anymore. They're either up and coming Europeans, or older Black artists that though on their last creative legs, still have a lot to say. And those are very few.

I would really like to see Black people pick up the mantle again and focus on creating BANDS!!! Not limited by our current musical landscape.

 

[DjMorpheus]

what HAR125LEM said...and a whoolllleeeeee lot more

 

[Actor4Truth]

Its crazy i was just talking about this to my little cousins this other day. In the car I was blasting the Old School jazz.. of course they were like thats wack.! I had to school them on what they are missing out on.. The Art of MAKING music; to which they replied thats what a producer is for.! I told em its sad that their generation considers that Making Music.. Pushing buttons and clicking on tracks, as opposed to practicing and refining skills on actual instruments.. told them that its is our music that we created and it is dying, and soon will go the way of the dinosaurs. its sad to see the path of lack of knowledge and awareness that the future is heading. I don't know what I'd do without some good jazz. I'm not hating on Rap/R&B, but you can't just hear that 24/7.! I also don't think its coincidence; Society/Media/ CEO's glorify the "stars" often with very limited "talent", emphasize image over "true" skill, at the same time cut funding for arts programs that teach the youth how to learn to play instruments. Don't show/ promote jazz artists and musicians, therefore denying the youth exposure to the art form.! I'm very thankful my folks taught me jazz, classical, soul, etc..! But as with most thing its up to us to teach the youth.. no one else is gonna do it.!!

Props to the OP for posting this topic.!!

 

[geechiedan]

its not that there aren't any but they get NO spotlight shine whatsoever anymore..Todays musicians are little more than session players on the record and backing music on the stage..

Who's the top black guitarist today?? who's the top black bassist or pianist?? The musicians are there but the focus on musicianSHIP has shifted.

 

[Ill Paragraph]

Peace,

How did hip hop come about? What kind of funding are inner city schools receiving for music programs? The steady disappearance of instrumentation hasn't just occurred in a vacuum.

 

[HAR125LEM]

Peace,

How did hip hop come about? What kind of funding are inner city schools receiving for music programs? The steady disappearance of instrumentation hasn't just occurred in a vacuum.

I think the vacuum was more in the mentality of a lot of our people than it was the de-funding of music programs.

A lot of our great Jazz Musicians didn't have shit.
But if you read the stories, music was a way out.
And they would do anything possible for their instruments.
Keep in mind that many of them couldn't read music either.

I just feel that the cutting of school music programs isn't as major as people are lead to believe.

As stated earlier...

I've know way too many young White kids that were picking up all sorts of instruments. This as Oregon and Washington schools were cutting music programs.

Hell. Look at all these hipster bands all over NYC.
I know and work with quite a few of these cats.
And they never had any formal training.

 

[woodchuck]

Although Har125lem made some great points, this could be "blamed" on Disco and watered down dance music in general. It was during that era producers and labels figured out that they could get the "same" (not really ) results with machines, and not have to pay as many people. First it was the horn section, then the bassist, then the drummer, and if there was a decent keyboard effect for guitar, they'd have bounced his ass too! Once that puppy got past the screen door and tasted freedom, it was hard to get it back in the house. Sure, you'll have the Mint Conditions once every blue moon, but as far as the US is concerned, funk, soul, and R&B bands are a very hard sell. Look at the most successful black bands in the last 2 decades, and then tell me where they're from.

 

[geechiedan]

Although Har125lem made some great points, this could be "blamed" on Disco and watered down dance music in general. It was during that era producers and labels figured out that they could get the "same" (not really ) results with machines, and not have to pay as many people. First it was the horn section, then the bassist, then the drummer, and if there was a decent keyboard effect for guitar, they'd have bounced his ass too! Once that puppy got past the screen door and tasted freedom, it was hard to get it back in the house. Sure, you'll have the Mint Conditions once every blue moon, but as far as the US is concerned, fuck, soul, and R&B bands are a very hard sell. Look at the most successful black bands in the last 2 decades, and then tell me where they're from.

you have the roots but theyre not respected as much in the US as they are aboard.

 

[HAR125LEM]

Although Har125lem made some great points, this could be "blamed" on Disco and watered down dance music in general. It was during that era producers and labels figured out that they could get the "same" (not really ) results with machines, and not have to pay as many people. First it was the horn section, then the bassist, then the drummer, and if there was a decent keyboard effect for guitar, they'd have bounced his ass too! Once that puppy got past the screen door and tasted freedom, it was hard to get it back in the house. Sure, you'll have the Mint Conditions once every blue moon, but as far as the US is concerned, fuck, soul, and R&B bands are a very hard sell. Look at the most successful black bands in the last 2 decades, and then tell me where they're from.

My decades old "joke" about what you've stated...

I blame Kashif and the Yamaha DX7.

As far as your last point.
The BEST Black Bands have been from the UK.
Especially Bluey Mauhnick and Incognito.
And that's why a lot of American Black bands had started to go to Europe during the late 80s. And all these Brit cats were young and idolizing them.

 

[Theo_Huxtable]

Unfortunately, it is hip-hop. Why buy expensive instruments and go thru the hassle of assembling a band and having to share that show money and etc when you can just make a beat of just need one person to make a beat. Cheap and easy, plus rap is honestly less skillful. I love the genre but it's a major reason why young brothas aren't investing in instruments.​

 

[woodchuck]

My decades old "joke" about what you've stated...

I blame Kashif and the Yamaha DX7.

As far as your last point.
The BEST Black Bands have been from the UK.
Especially Bluey Mauhnick and Incognito.
And that's why a lot of American Black bands had started to go to Europe during the late 80s. And all these Brit cats were young and idolizing them.

Yeah, the UK locked in on the Funk, with Incognito, Brand New Heavies, the whole Boogie Back movement (Omar, Bass is Bass, Vanessa Simon, etc.), and the non black bands playing funk like Jamiroquai, IZIT, Nathan Haines, etc. Yeah, in the US, we had Groove Collective, Greyboy All Stars, Brooklyn Funk Essentials and the Roots, but I guess there was only room for 2 (MC & The Roots).

 

[HAR125LEM]

Yeah, the UK locked in on the Funk, with Incognito, Brand New Heavies, the whole Boogie Back movement (Omar, Bass is Bass, Vanessa Simon, etc.), and the non black bands playing funk like Jamiroquai, IZIT, Nathan Haines, etc. Yeah, in the US, we had Groove Collective, Greyboy All Stars, Brooklyn Funk Essentials and the Roots, but I guess there was only room for 2 (MC & The Roots).

Don't forget...

That whole Brit wave in the 80s started with Imagination, KLEER, Central Line, I Level, Loose Ends, and later Soul II Soul. The latter getting more massive airplay beyond Black Radio.

 

[King Natty]

I think like a lot of things, the older generations haven't done a good enough job of passing that knowledge down and getting younger folks interested in playing instruments

 

[HAR125LEM]

I think like a lot of things, the older generations haven't done a good enough job of passing that knowledge down and getting younger folks interested in playing instruments

I think that "older generation not passing knowledge" argument rings pretty hollow in the situation.

Let me put it this way.

Most Black Kids look at old music as "Wack" or an opportunity to search for beats, passages, etc.

Most White Kids look at old music to study, learn, etc.

At least this is what I've noticed over the decades.

But since honestly, I don't have any children personally,
I'm gonna let some of you with kids speak more on this.

 

[woodchuck]

I think that "older generation not passing knowledge" argument rings pretty hollow in the situation.

Let me put it this way.

Most Black Kids look at old music as "Wack" or an opportunity to search for beats, passages, etc.

Most White Kids look at old music to study, learn, etc.

At least this is what I've noticed over the decades.

But since honestly, I don't have any children personally,
I'm gonna let some of you with kids speak more on this.

2 of my sons are musos. One plays guitar and keys, and the other is a drummer and percussionist. When I go to music stores, I do see more white kids and than black ones. Like I said, we can blame hip hop all we want, but hip hop didn't start this, it just carried it over. When I was in high school, there were about 3 or 4 bands in every school. Talent shows used to be a hot ticket, because we knew there would be some bands throwing the fuck down.

 

[geechiedan]

you guys are missing the point I'm not saying there aren't any black musicians I'm saying that there isn't any strong focus on musicianship on the record.

you listen to a prince song and you will hear a guitar solo or a piano/keyboard solo...

The funk bands gave shine and highlight to various instrument solos.

In contrast in todays popular music when have you heard something like that?

thats why I asked Who's the top black guitarist today?? who's the top black bassist or pianist?? The musicians are there but the focus on musicianSHIP has shifted.

 

[King Natty]

I think that "older generation not passing knowledge" argument rings pretty hollow in the situation.

Let me put it this way.

Most Black Kids look at old music as "Wack" or an opportunity to search for beats, passages, etc.

Most White Kids look at old music to study, learn, etc.

At least this is what I've noticed over the decades.

But since honestly, I don't have any children personally,
I'm gonna let some of you with kids speak more on this.

Well for me it was my mother and grandparents that would put me on to a lot of stuff they listened to growing up which lead to my appreciation for musicianship and got me interested in playing instruments. I honestly don't think I would have just stumbled on to it on my own

 

[DjMorpheus]

you guys are missing the point I'm not saying there aren't any black musicians I'm saying that there isn't any strong focus on musicianship on the record.

you listen to a prince song and you will hear a guitar solo or a piano/keyboard solo...

The funk bands gave shine and highlight to various instrument solos.

In contrast in todays popular music when have you heard something like that?

thats why I asked Who's the top black guitarist today?? who's the top black bassist or pianist?? The musicians are there but the focus on musicianSHIP has shifted.

Top musicians playing jazz. Back in the day a lot of jazz musicians were used on soul, funk, r&b records. Don't use musicians like that nowadays for the most part. Just sample bits of what was played back in the day, add a beat and tadaaaaa you got a hit. No reason to call Herbie Hancock or Stevie Wonder to a session when u can just sample em and get clearance.

 

[geechiedan]

Top musicians playing jazz. Back in the day a lot of jazz musicians were used on soul, funk, r&b records. Don't use musicians like that nowadays for the most part. Just sample bits of what was played back in the day, add a beat and tadaaaaa you got a hit. No reason to call Herbie Hancock or Stevie Wonder to a session when u can just sample em and get clearance.

hence rap music killed the guitar solo

 

[woodchuck]

hence rap music killed the guitar solo

I disagree. "Rock Box", "King of Rock", and "Bombs Over Baghdad" have guitar solos, and all 3 are rap songs. Name me at least 3 R&B songs that were hit singles with guitar solos in the last 25 years or so?

 

[AlexanderNevermind]

And will it come back??

remember when black music had the guitar, bass, piano hell even FLUTE solo?? Remember when people used to talk about bootsie and jesse johnson and ernie isley?

when was the last time you heard decent featured instrumentation in popular black music? It seems like music serves the vocals rather than being a partnership.

Did rap music kill featured solo instrumentation in black music?

Lets see looking at the top 10 R&b songs on iTunes

It's still there, back in the mix.
Bruno Mars doing his thing.

 

[AlexanderNevermind]

you guys are missing the point I'm not saying there aren't any black musicians I'm saying that there isn't any strong focus on musicianship on the record.

you listen to a prince song and you will hear a guitar solo or a piano/keyboard solo...

The funk bands gave shine and highlight to various instrument solos.

In contrast in todays popular music when have you heard something like that?

thats why I asked Who's the top black guitarist today?? who's the top black bassist or pianist?? The musicians are there but the focus on musicianSHIP has shifted.

top black guitarist: Bruno Mars, Gary Clark Jr - theres more
top black bassist: Espenraza spading, theres more
pianists: J Legend, A Keys

bands; bruno mars band is sick, Beyonce's touring band,

just first came to mind, it's out there really hard to find
so many other alternatives for youngsters instead of learning instruments, which is a good thing and a curse

to me the problem is more innovation, Gary clark Jr is trying, Bruno Mars is trying - they have the fan base now it's time to go off kilter

 

[knightmelodic]

no, not rap. the greedy producers who found out that using synths instead of paying live musicians meant more profits

you can point to a few musicians, keys, legend, mars, etc; hell even smooth jazz saxes, trumpets etc all have synths backing them

it's always about the money

edit -ah, I see woodchuck got here first. carry on

 

[meilmarc]

This Album here has a lot of good live instruments(saxophone,guitar)

http://www.livemixtapes.com/mixtapes/16042/big-krit-4eva-n-a-day.html

http://bigkrit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/4evaNADAYBEATS.jpg (instrumentals album)

 

[geechiedan]

Lets see looking at the top 10 R&b songs on iTunes

It's still there, back in the mix.
Bruno Mars doing his thing.

thats the point and the issue..

 

[geechiedan]

I disagree. "Rock Box", "King of Rock", and "Bombs Over Baghdad" have guitar solos, and all 3 are rap songs. Name me at least 3 R&B songs that were hit singles with guitar solos in the last 25 years or so?

thats 3 in the last 20 years and I'm talking about black music as a whole..funk/R&B/rap/soul etc..R&B has been melded with hip hop and so you have one genre thats takin on the sensibilities of the other.

 

[kmillz]

5:00 min onward

 

[woodchuck]

thats 3 in the last 20 years and I'm talking about black music as a whole..funk/R&B/rap/soul etc..R&B has been melded with hip hop and so you have one genre thats takin on the sensibilities of the other.

What I'm saying is, you can't blame rap, when rap is the only music WITH guitar solos.

 

[geechiedan]

5:00 min onward

nice...unfortunately thats the exception and not the rule

 

[Nzinga]

Hehehehehehehe.......
For 2-years I have campaigned all by myself to
to highlight the dearth of musicianship in black
America...This post is vindication of all I have
been saying...

I am much obliged...now all of you idiots need to
go buy guitars, and we can all practise together..

 

[Nzinga]

What I'm saying is, you can't blame rap, when rap is the only music WITH guitar solos.

African music has the best solo guitar in the world
and a so-called African behaves completely oblivious
to that fact. Whom are you afraid of and fooling?

 

[DjMorpheus]

Man did somebody say Bruno fuckin Mars is a top black guitarist?????????

 

[Nzinga]

Yeah, the UK locked in on the Funk, with Incognito, Brand New Heavies, the whole Boogie Back movement (Omar, Bass is Bass, Vanessa Simon, etc.), and the non black bands playing funk like Jamiroquai, IZIT, Nathan Haines, etc. Yeah, in the US, we had Groove Collective, Greyboy All Stars, Brooklyn Funk Essentials and the Roots, but I guess there was only room for 2 (MC & The Roots).

"Fool, only now at the very end do you see"
All of those you have mentioned, with their
little skills, are irrelevant to the central
question at hand, since they are not the ones
who are going to make the difference or the
decision..

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/blaNEV4CDk4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Ralo Lawson]

Love this thread! We all know the problem now let's solve it. I'm teaching myself the bass, guitar and piano by playing along with my favorite songs and YouTube tutorials. One day I'll make some time for formal lessons but I'm really enjoying playing and I'm shocked at my progress. I'm way nicer than when I started. Support real music yall. I go to live shows and buy my favorite bands albums I don't download them for free.