Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter fonzerrillii
- Start date
Was it lazy giving Thor all that power in IW just to take it away in Endgame?
Answered 13h ago
Not at all. In fact, it’s one of the more fascinating character studies the MCU has engaged in - the notion that a hero’s feeling of self-worth can directly dictate how powerful they actually are.
Thor’s overall story arc in the MCU, from Thor right on through to Endgame, is one of constant doubt, self examination, and sudden growth that helps him exceed his starting position.
The plot of the original Thor movie is writ large across his arc in the MCU in general. Thor is brought low, Thor and/or his friends suffer as he searches himself for his self worth and value, and finally Thor succeeds in becoming the next best version of himself, enabling him to defeat the big bad guy.
It’s no accident that the MCU kept the “worthiness enchantment” as part of Mjolnir when adapting Thor from the comics. (Many people don’t even realize that comic-Thor has a secret identity, an ordinary man with no power whatsoever, and his worthiness is what allows him to turn into Thor, by holding Mjolnir. Without the hammer, he wasn’t even a handsome, tall, blonde dude.) The fact that his hammer is endowed with this enchantment forces Thor to constantly be worthy, not only of his own power, but of his birthright as king. As such, he places a huge amount of his self-worth in his use of it.
In Ragnarok, he loses Mjolnir but ultimately finds enough of himself that he can defeat Hela (or at least, defeat her forces and hold her off long enough to get the Asgardians away safely on the Statesman). But that means that at the start of Infinity War, he’s lost his mobile worthiness-detector.
Think of it this way. He wins in Ragnarok, and is immediately beset by Thanos’ ship (which we saw in the end credits). This translates directly into the opening of Infinity War, during which we see him fail to save his brother, fail to save Heimdall, fail to save many Asgardians, and fail to save his ship. The man who only minutes of screen time before was declared King of Asgard gets his ass whupped by Thanos and is left to drift in space until he gets picked up by the Guardians of the Galaxy.
Now, if Thor had Mjolnir at this point, he’d instantly know whether all these defeats meant he was worthy or not - either he could pick up the hammer, or he couldn’t, and either way, he’d know where he stood.
Instead, he suffers these immense emotional setbacks, and decides that his only way forward is to build himself a better weapon (hence the sidequest to Nedevellir). He succeeds (at great personal risk and peril) in helping create Stormbreaker, crashes into the Battle of Wakanda, and nearly kills Thanos with a strike powerful enough to plow through the combined power of all six Infinity Stones.
But nearly doesn’t count.
He’s left devastated that, at the last moment, he fails yet again. Despite all the gains he’s made, despite no longer thinking of himself as “the god of hammers”, despite having tapped into the Odinforce, Thor has missed his shot.
He is utterly undone going into Endgame.
Oh sure, he’s all fire and brimstone when the Avengers depart for the Garden, and he successfully kills Thanos. But it’s just too late, and it amounts to nothing but an empty revenge killing. He’s accomplished nothing, and he knows it.
So the first part of Endgame (once it moves forward the five years) shows us the after effect of that. Thor is so tied up in the idea that he may or may not be worthy any longer that he’s become a shadow of his former self. He doesn’t really believe in himself in any meaningful way anymore, and his powers (and physiology) come to reflect it.
Now, it’s key to note here - he hasn’t actually lost his powers. In theory, he could call down the lightning at any time. He could still punch a rock warrior into orbit. He could leap to the top of any building and then into the sky. But he simply doesn’t. Instead, he hangs around playing video games with Miek and Korg, effectively becoming a fifteen-hundred-year-old-teenager with no ambition. He’s been defeated in the most devastating way possible, especially for him- in his own head. He can’t even bear to hear Thanos’ name.
Notice his joy then when, during the time heist, he calls Mjolnir in Asgard, and it comes to him. Mjolnir has the enchantment at this point, and it answers his summons. That is literally all Thor needs to become himself again - the external validation that he is, after everything he’s won and lost, still “worthy”. His confidence skyrockets to know he’s still good enough to be an Avenger, and suddenly nothing can hold him back again.
The only worrying part of this, though, is that the validation must be external. He needs someone else to recognize him and tell him he’s “worthy” (especially now that Mjolnir is lost to him). He fails most of all when he doesn’t see his own worth. He’s amazingly powerful, but he’s also possibly the most fragile of the Avengers, because his crippling self doubt is the only thing that can really take his power away.
And just like most people, his belief in himself is the only thing that can get him back on track.
Answered 13h ago
Not at all. In fact, it’s one of the more fascinating character studies the MCU has engaged in - the notion that a hero’s feeling of self-worth can directly dictate how powerful they actually are.
Thor’s overall story arc in the MCU, from Thor right on through to Endgame, is one of constant doubt, self examination, and sudden growth that helps him exceed his starting position.
The plot of the original Thor movie is writ large across his arc in the MCU in general. Thor is brought low, Thor and/or his friends suffer as he searches himself for his self worth and value, and finally Thor succeeds in becoming the next best version of himself, enabling him to defeat the big bad guy.
It’s no accident that the MCU kept the “worthiness enchantment” as part of Mjolnir when adapting Thor from the comics. (Many people don’t even realize that comic-Thor has a secret identity, an ordinary man with no power whatsoever, and his worthiness is what allows him to turn into Thor, by holding Mjolnir. Without the hammer, he wasn’t even a handsome, tall, blonde dude.) The fact that his hammer is endowed with this enchantment forces Thor to constantly be worthy, not only of his own power, but of his birthright as king. As such, he places a huge amount of his self-worth in his use of it.
In Ragnarok, he loses Mjolnir but ultimately finds enough of himself that he can defeat Hela (or at least, defeat her forces and hold her off long enough to get the Asgardians away safely on the Statesman). But that means that at the start of Infinity War, he’s lost his mobile worthiness-detector.
Think of it this way. He wins in Ragnarok, and is immediately beset by Thanos’ ship (which we saw in the end credits). This translates directly into the opening of Infinity War, during which we see him fail to save his brother, fail to save Heimdall, fail to save many Asgardians, and fail to save his ship. The man who only minutes of screen time before was declared King of Asgard gets his ass whupped by Thanos and is left to drift in space until he gets picked up by the Guardians of the Galaxy.
Now, if Thor had Mjolnir at this point, he’d instantly know whether all these defeats meant he was worthy or not - either he could pick up the hammer, or he couldn’t, and either way, he’d know where he stood.
Instead, he suffers these immense emotional setbacks, and decides that his only way forward is to build himself a better weapon (hence the sidequest to Nedevellir). He succeeds (at great personal risk and peril) in helping create Stormbreaker, crashes into the Battle of Wakanda, and nearly kills Thanos with a strike powerful enough to plow through the combined power of all six Infinity Stones.
But nearly doesn’t count.
He’s left devastated that, at the last moment, he fails yet again. Despite all the gains he’s made, despite no longer thinking of himself as “the god of hammers”, despite having tapped into the Odinforce, Thor has missed his shot.
He is utterly undone going into Endgame.
Oh sure, he’s all fire and brimstone when the Avengers depart for the Garden, and he successfully kills Thanos. But it’s just too late, and it amounts to nothing but an empty revenge killing. He’s accomplished nothing, and he knows it.
So the first part of Endgame (once it moves forward the five years) shows us the after effect of that. Thor is so tied up in the idea that he may or may not be worthy any longer that he’s become a shadow of his former self. He doesn’t really believe in himself in any meaningful way anymore, and his powers (and physiology) come to reflect it.
Now, it’s key to note here - he hasn’t actually lost his powers. In theory, he could call down the lightning at any time. He could still punch a rock warrior into orbit. He could leap to the top of any building and then into the sky. But he simply doesn’t. Instead, he hangs around playing video games with Miek and Korg, effectively becoming a fifteen-hundred-year-old-teenager with no ambition. He’s been defeated in the most devastating way possible, especially for him- in his own head. He can’t even bear to hear Thanos’ name.
Notice his joy then when, during the time heist, he calls Mjolnir in Asgard, and it comes to him. Mjolnir has the enchantment at this point, and it answers his summons. That is literally all Thor needs to become himself again - the external validation that he is, after everything he’s won and lost, still “worthy”. His confidence skyrockets to know he’s still good enough to be an Avenger, and suddenly nothing can hold him back again.
The only worrying part of this, though, is that the validation must be external. He needs someone else to recognize him and tell him he’s “worthy” (especially now that Mjolnir is lost to him). He fails most of all when he doesn’t see his own worth. He’s amazingly powerful, but he’s also possibly the most fragile of the Avengers, because his crippling self doubt is the only thing that can really take his power away.
And just like most people, his belief in himself is the only thing that can get him back on track.
Last edited:
Avengers: Endgame Rerelease: Here’s What Happens in the 6 Extra Minutes of Footage
By Jordan Crucchiola@jorcru
Photo: Michael Grimm
Avengers: Endgame is being released in theaters this weekend, bringing fans a little bit of extra footage while also boosting the Marvel movie’s mission todisplace Avataras the highest-grossing movie of all time. (Robert Downey Jr. is not even being low key about the mission.) So what will you be getting when you pony up for another ticket, besides maybe some personal delight in dethroning James Cameron? Post-credits footage! Here’s what fans will find in Endgame redux:
A Tribute to Stan Lee
The first thing you’ll see after a list of the army of people it took to make Endgamereal is a lovely little in-memoriam homage to Stan Lee. Marvel cut together behind-the-scenes footage of Lee shooting his cameos and B-roll of him being super happy over and over again about how massive this whole comic book thing became before the end of his life. It’s nice.
A Deleted Scene With Half a Hulk
Co-director Anthony Russo pops back in after the Lee tribute to introduce a deleted scene. They loved it, he says, but had to leave it on the cutting-room floor. As such, it’s unfinished, which makes it almost feel like a parody version of a Marvel outtake. The scene opens on a burning building with flames that are very much not done being rendered. Then a somethingshoots through the sky, lands on the roof, and jumps down to the street, bringing a big old satellite dish with it. It’s Professor Hulk! Mostly! He filled the dish with people to save them from the fire, and since the scene wasn’t fully completed in post he looks like a video game character from 2003. He’s in Hulk mode but speaking in Bruce Banner’s voice, so we know he’s merged into Professor Hulk, but his lips don’t move and he’s not fine-tuned enough to have any expressions. Once we come to understand that Hulk has remained on casual hero duty since The Snap, he gets a phone call: “Steve who?” he asks. Presumably that’s when he and Cap made their pancake date to talk about quantum physics and time travel.
A Spider-Man: Far From Home Button
After pseudo-Hulk comes one last thing. We open on another scene, this time of devastation in a Mexican town. A gratuitous Audi SUV comes rolling up through the wreckage and out steps Nick Fury and Agent Maria Hill. Apparently a cyclone has ravaged the area, and according to people on the ground, that cyclone had a face. Hill and Fury then come upon a very bearded and sexy Jake Gyllenhaal in the form of Mysterio. That’s when you realize “Oh! This is a Far From Homeplug!” The cyclone-with-a-face-monster then emerges behind the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents and Mysterio tells them to get the hell out of there. (The monster and Mysterio’s big green blast of magic also appear in this little clip.) That’s when we cut to the title, reminding you that the next Marvel (and Sony) movie arrives in but one week! You can even stay in this version of the multiverse to see it.
By Jordan Crucchiola@jorcru
Photo: Michael Grimm
Avengers: Endgame is being released in theaters this weekend, bringing fans a little bit of extra footage while also boosting the Marvel movie’s mission todisplace Avataras the highest-grossing movie of all time. (Robert Downey Jr. is not even being low key about the mission.) So what will you be getting when you pony up for another ticket, besides maybe some personal delight in dethroning James Cameron? Post-credits footage! Here’s what fans will find in Endgame redux:
A Tribute to Stan Lee
The first thing you’ll see after a list of the army of people it took to make Endgamereal is a lovely little in-memoriam homage to Stan Lee. Marvel cut together behind-the-scenes footage of Lee shooting his cameos and B-roll of him being super happy over and over again about how massive this whole comic book thing became before the end of his life. It’s nice.
A Deleted Scene With Half a Hulk
Co-director Anthony Russo pops back in after the Lee tribute to introduce a deleted scene. They loved it, he says, but had to leave it on the cutting-room floor. As such, it’s unfinished, which makes it almost feel like a parody version of a Marvel outtake. The scene opens on a burning building with flames that are very much not done being rendered. Then a somethingshoots through the sky, lands on the roof, and jumps down to the street, bringing a big old satellite dish with it. It’s Professor Hulk! Mostly! He filled the dish with people to save them from the fire, and since the scene wasn’t fully completed in post he looks like a video game character from 2003. He’s in Hulk mode but speaking in Bruce Banner’s voice, so we know he’s merged into Professor Hulk, but his lips don’t move and he’s not fine-tuned enough to have any expressions. Once we come to understand that Hulk has remained on casual hero duty since The Snap, he gets a phone call: “Steve who?” he asks. Presumably that’s when he and Cap made their pancake date to talk about quantum physics and time travel.
A Spider-Man: Far From Home Button
After pseudo-Hulk comes one last thing. We open on another scene, this time of devastation in a Mexican town. A gratuitous Audi SUV comes rolling up through the wreckage and out steps Nick Fury and Agent Maria Hill. Apparently a cyclone has ravaged the area, and according to people on the ground, that cyclone had a face. Hill and Fury then come upon a very bearded and sexy Jake Gyllenhaal in the form of Mysterio. That’s when you realize “Oh! This is a Far From Homeplug!” The cyclone-with-a-face-monster then emerges behind the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents and Mysterio tells them to get the hell out of there. (The monster and Mysterio’s big green blast of magic also appear in this little clip.) That’s when we cut to the title, reminding you that the next Marvel (and Sony) movie arrives in but one week! You can even stay in this version of the multiverse to see it.
Boobmaster69
Ill never forget the theater audience's reaction at the one i was in when this scene started up..when Falcon said"..on your left" everybody was like 
What is something you noticed in Avengers: Endgame that you believe others have missed?
Floyd Aranyosi, I was a fan before Ant Man became Goliath.
Answered Jul 19
In Avengers: Infinity War, Starlord refers to Thor as a Dude. Drax tells him Thor is not a dude, Quill is a dude.
In The Big Lebowski, the main character refers to himself as “the dude.”
In Infinity War, and in GotG Vol. 1, Rocket Racoon is seemingly obsessed with collecting other people's body parts, and even gives Thor an eye he had stolen from someone.
In The Big Lebowski, Walter Sobchak tells the Dude that he has ways of getting a toe.
Then in Avengers: Endgame, Thor is wearing the stolen eye, and dressed in casual clothes and a bathrobe, and Tony Stark calls him Lebowski.
I can't help but assume that the Russo brothers included the body parts theft and calling Quill a dude in A:IW as references to The Big Lebowski as prefiguring the reveal of “Dude Thor" in Endgame.
I haven't read or seen any interviews with the Russos stating that explicitly, but I assume that it was a running joke that we weren't expected to catch except in retrospect.
Floyd Aranyosi, I was a fan before Ant Man became Goliath.
Answered Jul 19
In Avengers: Infinity War, Starlord refers to Thor as a Dude. Drax tells him Thor is not a dude, Quill is a dude.
In The Big Lebowski, the main character refers to himself as “the dude.”
In Infinity War, and in GotG Vol. 1, Rocket Racoon is seemingly obsessed with collecting other people's body parts, and even gives Thor an eye he had stolen from someone.
In The Big Lebowski, Walter Sobchak tells the Dude that he has ways of getting a toe.
Then in Avengers: Endgame, Thor is wearing the stolen eye, and dressed in casual clothes and a bathrobe, and Tony Stark calls him Lebowski.
I can't help but assume that the Russo brothers included the body parts theft and calling Quill a dude in A:IW as references to The Big Lebowski as prefiguring the reveal of “Dude Thor" in Endgame.
I haven't read or seen any interviews with the Russos stating that explicitly, but I assume that it was a running joke that we weren't expected to catch except in retrospect.
idgaf
from thor trying to get thanos
thanos catching the stormbreaker and trying to implant it in his chest
to cap summoning the hammer and fucking up thanos
to thanos recovering and clapping him up and his army showing up ready
to cap tightening up and then being ready for war solo
to sam saying on your left and everyone showing up
all is forgiven it's a perfect movie.
from thor trying to get thanos
thanos catching the stormbreaker and trying to implant it in his chest
to cap summoning the hammer and fucking up thanos
to thanos recovering and clapping him up and his army showing up ready
to cap tightening up and then being ready for war solo
to sam saying on your left and everyone showing up
all is forgiven it's a perfect movie.
Ant Man stomping out fools and saving the Hulk, War machine and Rocket. He doesn't get his due. Also, Infinity War Thor would have smashed the ship and beat This Thanos down. Fat Thor all winded and shit. Was hoping he could channel the Odin force and really put a smack down.
I know people don't like her, but when Captain Marvel showed up and everyone stopped fighting and the ships guns pointed at her, that was a great scene the way she came thru. Even Thanos had a wtf look.
Lol @ your opinion
She was great in this movie period
What is something you noticed in Avengers: Endgame that you believe others have missed?
During the huge battle scene in Endgame, right after Thanos breaks Cap's shield and knocks him down, Cap is seen getting back up and tightening one of the straps on his shield back into place. Some viewers may have missed the giant cut on Cap's forearm caused by Thanos's sword. The reason Cap tightens the strap on his shield is to stop the bleeding from the enormous cut. In the trailers, the cut on Cap's arm isn't visible, and neither is the broken part of his shield. This was probably done to prevent major spoilers.
Hope that answers your question!
During the huge battle scene in Endgame, right after Thanos breaks Cap's shield and knocks him down, Cap is seen getting back up and tightening one of the straps on his shield back into place. Some viewers may have missed the giant cut on Cap's forearm caused by Thanos's sword. The reason Cap tightens the strap on his shield is to stop the bleeding from the enormous cut. In the trailers, the cut on Cap's arm isn't visible, and neither is the broken part of his shield. This was probably done to prevent major spoilers.
Hope that answers your question!
putting this hear.. SO i can make a Gif later...
Dancing Thanos with the background music.... LOL
Dancing Thanos with the background music.... LOL
putting this hear.. SO i can make a Gif later...
Dancing Thanos with the background music.... LOL
That's hilarious and blasphemous at the same time.
That's hilarious and blasphemous at the same time.
its that damn music... I could hear that shit all day.
putting this hear.. SO i can make a Gif later...
Dancing Thanos with the background music.... LOL
/dead
The Mad Titan
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