Humans not so special-- other animals with consciences?

Costanza

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Puppies may share our moral conscience
Electa Draper
May 17, 2009


IF YOU subscribe to the theory that humans are superior to other animals because we alone have a moral conscience, you may be barking up the wrong tree.

A new breed of behavioural experts now believes that dogs, too, have a moral compass.

Natural historian Jake Page says scientists are finally acknowledging what pet owners have told their canines all along: "Good dog."

Marc Bekoff, professor emeritus at the University of Colorado, in Boulder, says dogs are full of natural goodness and have rich emotional lives. Professor Bekoff, a groundbreaking animal behaviorist, says a dog's code of ethics is on display daily in parks, backyards and family rooms.

"We're not trying to elevate animals," he said. "We're not trying to reduce humans. We're not saying we're better or worse or the same. We're saying we're not alone in having a nuanced moral system."

Page, the Colorado-based author of Do Dogs Smile?, says biology no longer dismisses dogs and other animals as "furry automatons" driven by instinct and food.

"People like Bekoff have figured out how to measure these things," he said. "It's a whole new ball game for studying dog personalities and emotions."

Professor Bekoff, co-author of the newly released Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals, spent thousands of hours observing coyotes, wolves and dogs in the field.

He analysed videotapes frame by frame. The work persuaded him these animals possess empathy and compassion, the emotions upon which moral sense is built. "I'm convinced many animals can distinguish right from wrong," Professor Bekoff said, citing monkeys, wolves, elephants, dolphins and whales as other creatures that have complex social lives.

But dogs, he says, are special cases because they share in human lives.

"Dogs know they are dependent. They learn to read us," Professor Bekoff said. "Dogs develop this great sense of trust. We're tightly linked and there is something spiritual about that unity."

This intimacy and mutual influence prompted Harvard University to open a Canine Cognition Lab, where researchers attempt to gain insight into the psychology of humans and dogs.

Professor Bekoff says some behaviour experts still believe emotions, and certainly morality, are uniquely human traits — but he is witnessing a turning tide. "The amount of scepticism has dramatically dropped."

But looking for the roots of morality in animals is a difficult scientific undertaking. It begins with looking for emotions central to morality, such as empathy — understanding another's situation, feelings and motives.

In humans, emotions are centred in specific brain structures and are affected by chemicals called neurotransmitters. Mammals possess the same brain structures, affected by the same chemicals as humans.

Professor Bekoff says, as well as loyalty, dogs display a range of clear emotions including:

-A sense of fair play.

-A love of company and friends.

-Jealousy and resentment.

-Anxiety and fear.

-Embarrassment and remorse.

-Affection and compassion.

-Grief and loss.

And they have a sense of humour. "Dogs apparently laugh," Page said. The same brain structures show the same activity in laughing humans and in dogs who are enjoying themselves. A dog's laugh is a rhythmic pant.

If Professor Bekoff is right and dogs do have a moral core, says Jay McDaniel, a professor of religion at Hendrix College in Arkansas, theologians will have to develop a theology of animal minds and an ethic of animal protection.

"Animals have their own kind of spirituality, their own connection to the creator," he said.

In the 1200s, Catholic philosopher Thomas Aquinas wrote that animals have souls but not like the rational human soul created by God for each individual person.

Alfred North Whitehead, an influential 20th-century scientist and philosopher, recognised in 1926 that key elements of religious expression — ritual and emotion — are common to humans and animals. However, he said, belief and rationalisation are exclusively human activities.

Professor Bekoff disagrees, saying: "Dogs are thinking animals. They seek the outcomes they want, avoid the ones they don't. They solve problems. They have expectations. They have hopes."

But critics say evidence is often anecdotal.

Professor Bekoff counters that thousands of anecdotes equal data.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/puppies-may-share-our-moral-conscience-20090516-b6u8.html?page=-1
 
"I ain't readin' that shit"

michael_vick_dog.jpg
 
Everything with a brain (cats, rats, bees, fleas) has a conscience and is conscious, we just deny it so we don't feel bad eating them...truss
 
I don't think it's so much about justifying our eating these animals... It's about how we insist that we are so much better and completely different from all other animals... And it just ain't so...
 
This article is pretty stupid to me. Of course dogs and animals have "consciences/emtions." You ever see a dog with separation anxiety? Or a dog cowering in shame after he messed the carpet?

Anyone with a pet could have wrote this article.
 
This article is pretty stupid to me. Of course dogs and animals have "consciences/emtions." You ever see a dog with separation anxiety? Or a dog cowering in shame after he messed the carpet?

Anyone with a pet could have wrote this article.
My cat just fucked up my favorite shirt. The bitch should've known better, but only cowered in fear of getting hit as she ran away... No shame in her game...

I agree it should be easy to recognize that animals have emotions and thoughts... how clearly developed they are is up for debate.
 
So... What separates us? Are humans all that special???

of course we are special in that we exhibit an unparalleled ability to CREATE and we seek to ascertain answers pertaining to our enigmatic purpose.

These are just a fraction of characteristics that makes human beings "special".


What separates us from animals is that we operate on a higher frequency. What puts us equal in standing is that we are conscious beings operating in the same space living out an experience.
 
of course we are special in that we exhibit an unparalleled ability to CREATE and we seek to ascertain answers pertaining to our enigmatic purpose.

These are just a fraction of characteristics that makes human beings "special".


What separates us from animals is that we operate on a higher frequency. What puts us equal in standing is that we are conscious beings operating in the same space living out an experience.
We're a smidgen more intelligent, I'll give you that.

(There was a purpose behind this bump, I'll link it to this thread soon...)
 
I don't think it's so much about justifying our eating these animals... It's about how we insist that we are so much better and completely different from all other animals... And it just ain't so...

That is not entirely accurate. Numerous native peoples/tribes old and new understood/understand that they were equal to the animals they shared their environment with.


They understood that an equilibrium existed which enabled both of them to flourish.


The Bible which mentions that man has dominion over animals along with other factors contributed to a paradigm shift in thinking.
 
That is not entirely accurate. Numerous native peoples/tribes old and new understood/understand that they were equal to the animals they shared their environment with.


They understood that an equilibrium existed which enabled both of them to flourish.


The Bible which mentions that man has dominion over animals
along with other factors contributed to a paradigm shift in thinking.
Yeah, that's exactly what I was referring to but you're right to point out that, however dominant today, its not the only understanding which has existed.

So my use of the term "we" is a bit Western-centric...
 
of course we are special in that we exhibit an unparalleled ability to CREATE and we seek to ascertain answers pertaining to our enigmatic purpose.

These are just a fraction of characteristics that makes human beings "special".


What separates us from animals is that we operate on a higher frequency. What puts us equal in standing is that we are conscious beings operating in the same space living out an experience.

Skip to 2:10!

​
 

Skip to 2:10!

​

2:10 is where the video becomes most relevant to the discussion but anybody who skips ahead is doing themselves a disservice, the whole video is worth watching.

:lol: 30 seconds in @ "brain failures"

I definitely co-sign what he's saying around the four minute mark and love the Stephen Hawking example, Tyson is a colorful dude.

I can't lose sleep over this anymore than I can the violence and lack of empathy that are manifestations of our lack of intelligence...

Good drop, I'm gonna go ahead and give the thread 5 stars with this addition.
 
of course we are special in that we exhibit an unparalleled ability to CREATE

dogs can create too my old dog used to collect rocks and build things and I watched 2 of my dogs run around and collect things to make beds for the younger dogs
 
of course we are special in that we exhibit an unparalleled ability to CREATE and we seek to ascertain answers pertaining to our enigmatic purpose.

These are just a fraction of characteristics that makes human beings "special".


What separates us from animals is that we operate on a higher frequency. What puts us equal in standing is that we are conscious beings operating in the same space living out an experience.

Truth.....
When animals ...insects...etc. can create CONCIOUS works of art..and concious works of destruction...not like Beehives and such....Their unconcious adherence to nature allows them to accomplish those amazing and beautiful things...Then it may give these folks who want all these creatures to be on the same level some creedence....That's bullshit!!

Man is both the most high and the most base of creation...because he can consiously decide to do or not to do a thing on a consistent basis...Freewill!!

These other animals move because their natural hardwiring dictates....that's why when you put them in a enviroment opposed to their natural one...no telling what you will see fro them
 
Truth.....
When animals ...insects...etc. can create CONCIOUS works of art..and concious works of destruction...not like Beehives and such....Their unconcious adherence to nature allows them to accomplish those amazing and beautiful things...Then it may give these folks who want all these creatures to be on the same level some creedence....That's bullshit!!

Man is both the most high and the most base of creation...because he can consiously decide to do or not to do a thing on a consistent basis...Freewill!!

These other animals move because their natural hardwiring dictates....that's why when you put them in a enviroment opposed to their natural one...no telling what you will see fro them
I gotta get this other thread up today, part of it will address what is said here.
 
dogs can create too my old dog used to collect rocks and build things and I watched 2 of my dogs run around and collect things to make beds for the younger dogs

is that really creation??
I mean birds and snakes and crocodiles build nest...that sounds like a form of nest building.....
Dogs dig holes to hide bones...would you consider that creativity
On the other hand many people believe in entities that are able to shape shift....Native American culture does.....as does the Islamic belief in Jinns....and most cultures believe in some form of elementals....creatures of higher intelligence that can transform themselves into a variety of forms....I for one would not discount that possibility....which would then beg the question of whether you were looking at a real dog....or another entity in a dogs body.....This kind of subject matter opens itself up for a lot of speculation.
 
Ain't NO animal in tha world that can help me with my homework.
Humans>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Animals
/THREAD
 
Truth.....
When animals ...insects...etc. can create CONCIOUS works of art..and concious works of destruction...not like Beehives and such....Their unconcious adherence to nature allows them to accomplish those amazing and beautiful things...Then it may give these folks who want all these creatures to be on the same level some creedence....That's bullshit!!

Man is both the most high and the most base of creation...because he can consiously decide to do or not to do a thing on a consistent basis...Freewill!!

These other animals move because their natural hardwiring dictates....that's why when you put them in a enviroment opposed to their natural one...no telling what you will see fro them


we're on the same wavelength


bigirl said:
dogs can create too my old dog used to collect rocks and build things and I watched 2 of my dogs run around and collect things to make beds for the younger dogs

sighs

Initially I thought using the word "unparalleled" would of prevented a response such as this one.

Of course animals can create and manipulate their environment, but the level of conscious understanding and thoughtfulness that goes into something like the megalithic structures of Teotihuacan which were constructed to mimic the celestial bodies in our solar system is something that will NEVER resonate in the conscious mind of an animal.

That is what I mean by unparalleled
 

Skip to 2:10!

​


GREAT POST!

Truth.....
When animals ...insects...etc. can create CONCIOUS works of art..and concious works of destruction...not like Beehives and such....Their unconcious adherence to nature allows them to accomplish those amazing and beautiful things...Then it may give these folks who want all these creatures to be on the same level some creedence....That's bullshit!!

Man is both the most high and the most base of creation...because he can consiously decide to do or not to do a thing on a consistent basis...Freewill!!

These other animals move because their natural hardwiring dictates....that's why when you put them in a enviroment opposed to their natural one...no telling what you will see fro them

Conscious works of art (whatever that is) is not intelligence. Chimpanzees have done paintings as well. What we define art as, is in fact SUBJECTIVE. Do you understand?

Man's mind and body is the culmination of life on Earth. We have no knowledge of 'creation'.

Freewill (whatever you think that, that is) and intelligence are not linked. We are animals so try to disprove that before you go on about 'high and base of creation' w/e

You should watch that video too
 
One good example of behaviour of most domesticated animals....is when cats or dogs lick on people...
Some people thought this was a sign of affection...when in reality them animals just wanted to lick the salt off your body...
You thinking they love yo ass so much when in reality they where using you for nutrition...LOL
 
of course we are special in that we exhibit an unparalleled ability to CREATE and we seek to ascertain answers pertaining to our enigmatic purpose.

These are just a fraction of characteristics that makes human beings "special".


What separates us from animals is that we operate on a higher frequency. What puts us equal in standing is that we are conscious beings operating in the same space living out an experience.
I dont know about all that. Have you seen some of the comple building, tunnelling, structure and architecture that goes on in underground ant colonies? Ever see dolphin communicate? How about the inner workings of a huge bee hive?
 
GREAT POST!



Conscious works of art (whatever that is) is not intelligence. Chimpanzees have done paintings as well. What we define art as, is in fact SUBJECTIVE. Do you understand?

Man's mind and body is the culmination of life on Earth. We have no knowledge of 'creation'.

Freewill (whatever you think that, that is) and intelligence are not linked. We are animals so try to disprove that before you go on about 'high and base of creation' w/e

You should watch that video too

I did watch the video firstly...I guess I was suppose to react in the same manner as yourself....well I did not...so Sue me!!

Secondly you evidently are not an artist or understand what True Art entails...otherwise in no way could you have stated that it did not involve intelligence...and I ain't talkin about Primates paintin some shit on the fuckin wall.

And you have no concept to how freewill relates to intelligence?
Dam dude your brain must be dripping out your ears...

My intelligence and freewill tell me you do not have a clue....and that it is probably pointless to even try to break this shit down to you....so I leave you in your deluded stupor...

I sense one more thing....that you are probably a atheist...that becomes angry at the very notion of a higher intelligence....
And I am aware that Humans are biologically animals....No disagreement there......

Having said all that If you don't agree with me....That his Your CHOICE....Your FREEWILL....believe what you will or not...I don't give a Fuck...

The exchange of knowledge and information is what interest me....So why don't you do us both of us a favor and direct your PETA tinged rage in another direction...
I meant what I said....and will go further to say MAN is The Highest Creation in The Universe....whether you like it or not!!
 
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