Muhammad Ali vs. Lenox Lewis

[charlie dark]

I admire your resilience. here we go again. First of all, Henry Cooper didn't knock Ali out. He knocked him DOWN. Angie Dundee bought him some time in the corner but, Ali again, got right up after the knockdown. It wasn't like he barely beat the count getting up. As far as watching Ali's fights again, I have everyone of them from his last Olympic fight up until the first Frazier fight. since my word is not good enough for you, why don't you go to Ring magazine's website and YOU do a search on the Greatest to ever fight. As far as Ali throwing powder puff punches, you look at Henry Cooper's face in that fifth round when they stopped that fight. ali knocked a chunk of meat out of his eyebrow partner (literally). YOU look at the fight. I've seen it more times than you I'm sure. You still didn't address the point that I made about Ali beating Liston in his prime, Frazier in his prime and Foreman in his prime. That's not emotion, that's fact. You still won't give up that sports science stuff huh? It's all good though playboy. Lennox Lewis is not even mentioned as one of the greats. You're still trying to make Boxing an equation. It's just not that simple CD.

Henry Coopers face was made from tissue paper, I heard that he bled when his girl gave him a little sugar on the cheek!!!
I accept that Ali beat all the cats in his era at their prime.
You disregard my argument because you say it's too 'sports science' based, but my point is how else could you assess it?
You can quite rightly say that Ali had a better record than Lennox, but could he beat him?.... I doubt it.
I think I saw an interview with Ali and Mike Tyson and Ali even said that Tyson would have been too fast for him, maybe he said it in jest but I believed him. It was on the Arsenel Hall chat show I think...

 

[da_monumental_1]

Emanuel Steward:

"Oh, talkin' about going against one of my favorites [smiles]. I would have Lennox to just pressure Ali and every time Ali jabbed, to pick the jab off and counter with a fast jab of his own. Being that Lennox was much taller, still taller than Ali. And physically strong. But make Ali throw a flickering jab and then block it real quick, then step back with a return jab. Because Ali would often times be off-balance up on his left leg when he would be jabbing, flicking. And nobody ever jabbed back to him much. But Lennox- being that he was taller than Ali - he'd have been over the top of Ali. Ali would have been trying to just pick and return real quick. And that would have kept Ali's timing and balance off. But the focus would have been on a jab contest. Outjabbing Ali, believe it or not.

But Ali was very - the one thing that was great about Ali - that I always said - all fighters that I've known in history pretty much - they had certain guys that they would fight certain styles and they would always maneuver away from certain guys. Even Ray Robinson - I talked with George Gainford - he said we always had to keep Ray with guys about 5-8 and we never let him box too much with taller fighters. So the guy, even at his past best or whatever, he still had problems with Pender and Joey Archer even though he was older, but still, tall fighters bothered him. But guys with jabs - he said maybe it was so much that Robinson could not handle jabs. (I said) Are you kidding?? He said Nope. He said, You look at the fights, even with Lamotta, Lamotta literally once in a while he'd come up with a little pick pick jab and Ray would get all unorganized. He said Robinson had problems, just got disorientated with jabs. Even though he was always used to being the taller guy. So if someone jabbed back, he got all unorganized. And so we had Joe Louis, Joe, even in his prime, can't fight anyone that had movement, any trickiness, because Joe couldn't think if you started moving and tricking him. So the Billy Conns and Walcotts and those guys, they were problems. Ali fought everybody, I mean just fought everybody. And the fights where his boxing style could not get him over the hump, he actually did say I'll win this fight by just getting hit and landing three punches to every one. Kenny Norton and Joe Frazier and the guys he did have problems with their styles, Ali would just find a way to win. Even if it's I gotta sit down and get hit and outslug a guy and do this. That's why I always thought, in addition to his boxing skills, he was the greatest heavyweight. But he would have had problems with Holmes and Lennox. Because a lot of the great boxers had problems with other guys who had jabs. So that was the one punch that nobody threw at them much. So they had problems."

Like I said earlier in the post. Offset the jab.

I think most people's opinion of Lennox would change if he was born in America.

 

[SpiritualPorn]

We are talking prime here....and a prime Ali is not beatable by anyone.

The prime Ali had middleweight speed at six-three,two twenty...
Also was under-estimated was his chin,as in his later years after his speed had left he took some hard shots from some true heavy hitters.So ever if he had gotten hit...it would not have mattered.

He would have sliced and diced a prime Holyfeild,a prime Foreman,a prime Lewis...and any of these current Russians he would have made look stupid.

ALi was so good that he actually toyed around with opponents for entertainment value.

Ask Ernie Terell

Prime Ali was the best ever, period.

 

[Diamels]

I think most people's opinion of Lennox would change if he was born in America.

I will agree with this...

 

[nick177th]

Brother CD, LOOK at the clips. go to youtube. Look at the Cleveland Williams fight, go to the Ernie Terrell fight, go to the Liston fight. I'm not talking about Ali's record, I'm talking about who he beat. He beat the top three fighters of their respective eras. and two of them when he wasn't at the top of HIS respective game. Like I said earlier, do you need to look at a stat book to know that Michael Jordan (in his prime) could play right now in the NBA? if you know B-Ball, you shouldn't. Ali's skill level is above eras man. You may try and make tha argument that that view point is subjective. It is not. If you know Boxing and know what you're looking at, you don't need a stat book. LOOK at the man fight. and as far as Henry Cooper, Ali had only been a pro for two years. he turned pro in 1961. By 64, he was the champ. And that's back when you had to fight you're way up the ladder. I will look back at his fights before he got a title fight but, I would bet the ranch and the dog that Ali had at least 10to 12 fights before he got a title fight. Now days, an olympic champion has two fights as a pro and he's already in the top 10. That comment you made about Henry Cooper's face being tissue paper was weak. You know it and I know it. You're running out of ammo. I can sense it. I'm gonna break you down.

 

[PimpJuice]

Brother CD, LOOK at the clips. go to youtube. Look at the Cleveland Williams fight, go to the Ernie Terrell fight, go to the Liston fight. I'm not talking about Ali's record, I'm talking about who he beat. He beat the top three fighters of their respective eras. and two of them when he wasn't at the top of HIS respective game. Like I said earlier, do you need to look at a stat book to know that Michael Jordan (in his prime) could play right now in the NBA? if you know B-Ball, you shouldn't. Ali's skill level is above eras man. You may try and make tha argument that that view point is subjective. It is not. If you know Boxing and know what you're looking at, you don't need a stat book. LOOK at the man fight. and as far as Henry Cooper, Ali had only been a pro for two years. he turned pro in 1961. By 64, he was the champ. And that's back when you had to fight you're way up the ladder. I will look back at his fights before he got a title fight but, I would bet the ranch and the dog that Ali had at least 10to 12 fights before he got a title fight. Now days, an olympic champion has two fights as a pro and he's already in the top 10. That comment you made about Henry Cooper's face being tissue paper was weak. You know it and I know it. You're running out of ammo. I can sense it. I'm gonna break you down.

cosign. I edited my statement about that fight and added new info regarding the Frazier vs Ali fight. Thanks.

 

[SpiritualPorn]

Young Brother, let me tell you something. Ali's talents and skills trancends time. No fighter before nor since could beat Ali in his prime. That scientific and statistical stuff you speak of is great and probably holds true for mere mortals. Ali is a God in the ring. You look at Ali against any opponent before they took his belt. What you were seeing was not a training regiment or anything at all to do with strength. Ali was pure talent. Few men have ever come close to having his skill in the ring. VERY FEW. You aske anyone on this board or anyone you know that knows the "sweet science" and they will tell you that Ali (in his prime) could fight right now and beat any fighter alive. No doubt about it. No man before or since could match Ali's footwork, speed of punches or accuracy of punches. he had one of the best chins ever. that left hook Joe Frazier hit him with in the first fight would've knocked out a horse. Ali got right up off the canvas and continued the fight. I respect your opinion. everybody is entitled to one but you are DEAD WRONG on this one.

Co/Sign to the fullest

Additionally, the question isn't really about bigger, stronger, or faster in boxing. You have to take a punch. Ali was NEVER knocked out in a loss. Lewis was beaten by fighters that were jokes by all time standards.

Lewis is impressive with his size however Ali would hit Lewis 5 to 1 in jabs. Ali didn't even go to the body. Straight face.

If Lewis got knocked out by McCall (sp) and Rahman, what would happen with a dude hitting him at will, moving out the way before he could load up that slow ass jab, then take his best shot and talk shit, then hit him with another 4 punch combo, all in the first minute of the first round?

What fighter today can do the shuffle then hit 5 shots with accuracy. I won't even go heavyweight, lets stay with the Maywethers and Roy Joneses.

Ali was fuckin BORED. He let dudes hit him to make it interesting.

 

[nick177th]

Emanuel Steward:

"Oh, talkin' about going against one of my favorites [smiles]. I would have Lennox to just pressure Ali and every time Ali jabbed, to pick the jab off and counter with a fast jab of his own. Being that Lennox was much taller, still taller than Ali. And physically strong. But make Ali throw a flickering jab and then block it real quick, then step back with a return jab. Because Ali would often times be off-balance up on his left leg when he would be jabbing, flicking. And nobody ever jabbed back to him much. But Lennox- being that he was taller than Ali - he'd have been over the top of Ali. Ali would have been trying to just pick and return real quick. And that would have kept Ali's timing and balance off. But the focus would have been on a jab contest. Outjabbing Ali, believe it or not.

But Ali was very - the one thing that was great about Ali - that I always said - all fighters that I've known in history pretty much - they had certain guys that they would fight certain styles and they would always maneuver away from certain guys. Even Ray Robinson - I talked with George Gainford - he said we always had to keep Ray with guys about 5-8 and we never let him box too much with taller fighters. So the guy, even at his past best or whatever, he still had problems with Pender and Joey Archer even though he was older, but still, tall fighters bothered him. But guys with jabs - he said maybe it was so much that Robinson could not handle jabs. (I said) Are you kidding?? He said Nope. He said, You look at the fights, even with Lamotta, Lamotta literally once in a while he'd come up with a little pick pick jab and Ray would get all unorganized. He said Robinson had problems, just got disorientated with jabs. Even though he was always used to being the taller guy. So if someone jabbed back, he got all unorganized. And so we had Joe Louis, Joe, even in his prime, can't fight anyone that had movement, any trickiness, because Joe couldn't think if you started moving and tricking him. So the Billy Conns and Walcotts and those guys, they were problems. Ali fought everybody, I mean just fought everybody. And the fights where his boxing style could not get him over the hump, he actually did say I'll win this fight by just getting hit and landing three punches to every one. Kenny Norton and Joe Frazier and the guys he did have problems with their styles, Ali would just find a way to win. Even if it's I gotta sit down and get hit and outslug a guy and do this. That's why I always thought, in addition to his boxing skills, he was the greatest heavyweight. But he would have had problems with Holmes and Lennox. Because a lot of the great boxers had problems with other guys who had jabs. So that was the one punch that nobody threw at them much. So they had problems."

Like I said earlier in the post. Offset the jab.

I think most people's opinion of Lennox would change if he was born in America.

Ali was the greatest by alll accounts. Thank you for posting Stewart's views. So, boxers have problems with boxers right? So, why wouldn't Lewis have a problem with Ali also? Isn't Ali a boxer?

and that shit I highlighted in green is one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard. who gives a fuck where someone is born at? If he was da bomb, then he was da bomb. It just so happens that Lennox wasn't da bomb.

 

[nick177th]

cosign. I edited my statement about that Nick and added new info regarding the Frazier vs Ali fight. Thanks.

I saw that you edited it Brother PJ. good lookin'. whenI get a hold of a thread like this, I just can't let it go. Brother "Charlie Dark" has been led astray by statistics. I gotta get him str8. he's beginning to weaken. I can feel it. I gotta bring him back from the darkside. LOL!

 

[da_monumental_1]

It's not stupid. Maybe to you, but not to most of America.

Remember, more people vote in American Idol than US Presidential elections.

 

[nick177th]

Co/Sign to the fullest

Additionally, the question isn't really about bigger, stronger, or faster in boxing. You have to take a punch. Ali was NEVER knocked out in a loss. Lewis was beaten by fighters that were jokes by all time standards.

Lewis is impressive with his size however Ali would hit Lewis 5 to 1 in jabs. Ali didn't even go to the body. Straight face.

If Lewis got knocked out by McCall (sp) and Rahman, what would happen with a dude hitting him at will, moving out the way before he could load up that slow ass jab, then take his best shot and talk shit, then hit him with another 4 punch combo, all in the first minute of the first round?

What fighter today can do the shuffle then hit 5 shots with accuracy. I won't even go heavyweight, lets stay with the Maywethers and Roy Joneses.

Ali was fuckin BORED. He let dudes hit him to make it interesting.

Oliver McCall, Rahman! two non-descripts at best. Are you listening "Charlie Dark"? These two guys would've been club fighters back in the day. they would've never made it to "the big dance". Jeez man. C'mon with this Lennox Lewis stuff. Look at Ali's body of work.

 

[Diamels]

and that shit I highlighted in green is one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard. who gives a fuck where someone is born at?

American fight fans

 

[nick177th]

It's not stupid. Maybe to you, but not to most of America.

Remember, more people vote in American Idol than US Presidential elections.

what the hell are YOU talkin' about? We're talking about boxing, and you bring up American Idol? Dude, get a clue.

 

[nick177th]

American fight fans

Man, I ain't talkin' 'bout no fight FANS. I'm talking about people who consider themselves "students of the game". You know, people that follow the sport and can tell you the heavy weight champions and their fight history for more than let's say, YESTERDAY! My bad. I'm being sarcastic. But, I'm not talking about your average FAN. I'm talking about people who follow the sport. Who KNOW the game.

 

[Diamels]

Oliver McCall, Rahman! two non-descripts at best. Are you listening "Charlie Dark"? These two guys would've been club fighters back in the day. they would've never made it to "the big dance". Jeez man. C'mon with this Lennox Lewis stuff. Look at Ali's body of work.

He avenged both losses impressively, so I do not put much weight into them...

 

[nick177th]

He avenged both losses impressively, so I do not put much weight into them...

it still doesn't erase the "L's" though. If anybody following this thread has an account with "whatifsports.com", please put this fight in the computer so these Lennox Lewis lovers can see what would happen. I know "Sweets" has an account but, he hasn't commented on this thread. Put in 1966 Ali vs. Lennox Lewis whatever. Maybe our resident "scientists" will see the light then.

 

[nick177th]

never mind. you can't do Boxing on the whatif sports site.

 

[ebonymanej]

ali is the greatest no dobt ...but people are always downing lewis he got caught twice and droped avenged both loses ...ali got droped by ken norton and joe frazier .....but lewis got a glass jaw....oliver mccall droped tyson with one punch while sparing for the douglas fight the nigga was crazy and high on coke...and rahman was bigger and stronger than norton or frazier with good power ...klitco (spelling who cares) hit him with everything but the kitchen sink hurt him but he took it and got that ass. riddick bowe was afraid of him wouldn't fight him after he got his ass knocked out by him in the olympics .mike tyson paid him off not to fight him so he could fight hollyfield. i'm not saying he would beat ali but he could have. he was a big fighter like foreman but a more skilled boxer and better defensive fighter . the ropa dope would not have worked on him he was too smart for that. i'm not saying that he was the greatest fighter or even top 5 but he was better than people give him credit for. its not his fault that he couldn't get anyone to fight him until after he was well into his 30's

 

[will_right]

Ali Too Small, He Fought At 208 Usually. He Won Olympics At 178.lennox To Big, A Good Big Man Always Beats A Good Little Man. As Far As The Greatest Monicker, He Called Himself That,being From The Hood U Know U Get Ur Name From Other Cats. If He Was The Greatest For Winning Title 3 Times,what Is Holyfield Who Won It More Than That. Hell Watch The Sonny Liston Tape,the Phantom Punch Was Just That, He Never Hit Liston But Liston Layed Down. How A Guy That Doesnt Have A 1 Punch Ko Knock Out A Bull Like Liston With A Breeze, Lewis Beats Him,holyfield Gives Him Fits And Tyson Woulda Broke His Arms With That Rope A Dope Shit..

Who did Holyfield beat for the title that was good AND in their prime OTHER THAN BOE? holyfield AS WELL AS LENNOX hand picked who to fight.. for what title and at what time in their life.When he FINALLY fought tyson.."about 8 years after they first were suposed to" tyson was SHOT..and then was Butted and cut ON BOTH eyes by holyfiend..intentional i might add..which then cause tyson to loose it and bite da SHIT outta his ass GO TYSONBut befor doing so he complained to the ref many times and when nothing was done he THEN resulted in biting his ear to sorta even things as he so put it later. And PLEASE..im soo tierd of that "phantom punch" bullshit..that was the SECOND fight dawg..talk about the FIRST fight..what was liston's excuse THEN? he was STILL TK...the FUCK O'ed right? EXACTLY so lets move on from there shall we?ALL those great..TOUGH fighters that ALI whipped where STILL in their PRIME son...and lets not even talk about when lennox fought TYSON..hell he was a shot fighter when he had the fight with Holyfield and by the time he had the fight with Lewis he was a Walking STIFF..and on medication AKA dead man walking na mean.Ali's best fighting weight was about 212(in the middle to late 60's)later between 212 and 221 for most of his fights..but have come in heavier at times.Ali was ALOT Smarter & faster than Lennox and could take a MUCH better punch.IMO Ali would have TKO'ed Lennox ass or cut'em up so bad they'ed be FORCED to stop itAnd for the record..you really need to watch the fight with Ray Mercer and Lennox AGAIN cuz MERCER won that shit..his ass was ROBBED!When TYSON was in his prime & Ripping dudes heads off Lennox Lewis wanted NOTHING to do with a tyson BELIEVE ME!That Klitschko kid whooped lennox ass..but lost that fight because of CUTS..Then da Bitch ass Lewis Retired in order to avoid the rematch.So don't get it twisted boss.ALI...ALL DAY...ANYDAY

 

[will_right]

The Ali that beat Cleveland was the best of Ali. The Ali after Foreman was slower with less power.

That Ali is probably unbeatable.

Yup the pre 3 year layoff Ali would have had to get OLD to loose

 

[will_right]

Ali was the best to ever step into the "square circle". Bar none. And yes, I'm even speaking "pound for pound". before they took his title, you couldn't touch Ali. Ali probably would've reached his peak in '69. he was head and shoulders above everything out there when thay took his title but, I don't think he had reached his apex. After he beat Liston, he was still getting better. When he beat up Ernie Terrell in the Astrodome, that was the best we ever saw of Ali. I mean skill wise. That was the only time i ever saw Ali fight in anger. he beat Ernie Terrell up unmercifully. and I don't mean that in a good way. he didn't have to beat him up liket hat. I say that in the same breath that I tell you Ali is one of my heroes. However, his skills were the best that we ever witnessed of him at that point. hand speed, footwork, punching power and accuracy. it is a testament to his greatness that after he came back three years later, he was still the best out there. Yeah, Joe Frazier beat him but, if Ali had fought maybe two more tune up fights he would've beat Frazier. As he did twice later. I would argue to the death that nobody could beat Ali at his prime (1966). And again I say, I still don't think he had reached his peak.

Agreed to the utmost my mane

 

[charlie dark]

Brother CD, LOOK at the clips. go to youtube. Look at the Cleveland Williams fight, go to the Ernie Terrell fight, go to the Liston fight. I'm not talking about Ali's record, I'm talking about who he beat. He beat the top three fighters of their respective eras. and two of them when he wasn't at the top of HIS respective game. Like I said earlier, do you need to look at a stat book to know that Michael Jordan (in his prime) could play right now in the NBA? if you know B-Ball, you shouldn't. Ali's skill level is above eras man. You may try and make tha argument that that view point is subjective. It is not. If you know Boxing and know what you're looking at, you don't need a stat book. LOOK at the man fight. and as far as Henry Cooper, Ali had only been a pro for two years. he turned pro in 1961. By 64, he was the champ. And that's back when you had to fight you're way up the ladder. I will look back at his fights before he got a title fight but, I would bet the ranch and the dog that Ali had at least 10to 12 fights before he got a title fight. Now days, an olympic champion has two fights as a pro and he's already in the top 10. That comment you made about Henry Cooper's face being tissue paper was weak. You know it and I know it. You're running out of ammo. I can sense it. I'm gonna break you down.

LOL your funny man..I'm gonna look at the fights and come back at you with some specifics....I'll be back!!!

 

[nick177th]

ali is the greatest no dobt ...but people are always downing lewis he got caught twice and droped avenged both loses ...ali got droped by ken norton and joe frazier .....but lewis got a glass jaw....oliver mccall droped tyson with one punch while sparing for the douglas fight the nigga was crazy and high on coke...and rahman was bigger and stronger than norton or frazier with good power ...klitco (spelling who cares) hit him with everything but the kitchen sink hurt him but he took it and got that ass. riddick bowe was afraid of him wouldn't fight him after he got his ass knocked out by him in the olympics .mike tyson paid him off not to fight him so he could fight hollyfield. i'm not saying he would beat ali but he could have. he was a big fighter like foreman but a more skilled boxer and better defensive fighter . the ropa dope would not have worked on him he was too smart for that. i'm not saying that he was the greatest fighter or even top 5 but he was better than people give him credit for. its not his fault that he couldn't get anyone to fight him until after he was well into his 30's

Careful now, you're trying to equate "dropped" to knocked out. Ali got knocked down. Lewis got knocked OUT. I'm not taking anything away from Lennox Lewis. He was the best fighter in his era. Two questions for you. Could Lewis hit as hard as "young" Foreman? No. Could Lewis box as good as "young" Ali? No. To me, that should knock out the comparison to Foreman (you know, the "He's a Foreman size guy that could Box"). Ali beat Foreman while Foreman was in his prime and Ali was past his. So, I guess my real question to you is, Why would you think that Ali would possibly have a problem with Lewis if Lewis can't Box as good as Ali and Ali handled a MUCH more pwerful fighter (in Foreman) when Ali was already past his prime? I don't see the logic here. Enlighten me.

 

[will_right]

someone brought it to my attention earlier. my bad. I stand corrected again. Jimmy Young was alright. he wasn't on the scene that long though. Big George was a shell of himself after Ali knocked him out. Ali could get in your head and stay there. he was a master of that shit. I truly believe he psyched Liston out in the first fight. Liston was so angry, he tried to come out and take Ali's head off. When he saw he couldn't do that, he lost his confidence and just gave up after the sixth.

Yeah that along with not being able to stop Ali's constant Jab and right hand hitting his head over and OVA..yeah that will do it to ya every time

 

[will_right]

Young Brother, let me tell you something. Ali's talents and skills trancends time. No fighter before nor since could beat Ali in his prime. That scientific and statistical stuff you speak of is great and probably holds true for mere mortals. Ali is a God in the ring. You look at Ali against any opponent before they took his belt. What you were seeing was not a training regiment or anything at all to do with strength. Ali was pure talent. Few men have ever come close to having his skill in the ring. VERY FEW. You aske anyone on this board or anyone you know that knows the "sweet science" and they will tell you that Ali (in his prime) could fight right now and beat any fighter alive. No doubt about it. No man before or since could match Ali's footwork, speed of punches or accuracy of punches. he had one of the best chins ever. that left hook Joe Frazier hit him with in the first fight would've knocked out a horse. Ali got right up off the canvas and continued the fight. I respect your opinion. everybody is entitled to one but you are DEAD WRONG on this one.

Yeah..what HE said

 

[will_right]

Well, how was it then that old ass George Foreman and Larry Holmes went 12 rounds with Holyfield?

Ali knocked Foreman out in his prime.

Steroid boy (Evander) beat Mike Tyson, but couldn't knock out the "Grill master?"

Get the fuck outta here.

Ninjas are faster and maybe, maybe stronger but they are definitely much more bitchmade.

All this training and medical/nutritional advances and pussy ass bitches are still using roids, greenies and HGH?

Back in the day athletes ran on Pussy and beer and still put up numbers that can't be fucked with.

Back in the day athletes ran on Pussy and beer and still put up numbers that can't be fucked with.
Humm we might have an instant classic here

 

[will_right]

[/SIZE]

Patterson was an uncle tom punk but he could fight and had knockout power in both hands. He would probably be too small for Lennox. Slippery cats like Jimmy Young always gave Lennox trouble.

Slippery cats like Jimmy Young always gave Lennox trouble. Yup.

 

[Big Philly]

Dingbats, styles make fights not eras!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First off George foreman fought at about 217-220, ali at about 205. Fraizer round 200.

Second off physical strength, what a heavyweight needs, is the last "skill" you loose, quickness goes first. That is why heavys can go past their eras, most just rely on strength, not tip tap punches. Bad example to say cause a heavy fought in another era that era is weak.

Third....again.................styles make fights, ali aint whooping everybodys ass!!!!



Could we imagine foreman facing ali knowing ali would "rope a dope" him, it would be crazy, foreman woul have killed him.

Then again could we imagine ali without the layoff?

could we imagine tyson had not cus died?

Could we imagine tyson/holyfield 91 instead of 96?

Boxing is crazy as shit.A more interesting topic is removing weight classes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOu make good points here but if you watch the Ali fights people that gave him the best fights were active fighters who threw great left hooks. Cooper, Frazier, and Norton were those types of fighters. Ali prayed on bigger straight up and down fighters like Ernie Terrell, Cleveland Williams and George Foreman. Although Lennox moved better than Foreman and Terrell he stood straight up like them and was about the same fighter as Williams (who was great by the way). The reality of it is that the Ali that beat Terrell, Williams, Ellis, Foley and Patterson could beat any fighter of any era of any size. His ability to hit without being hit and then to take a punch (the left hooks that put him down against Frazier and Cooper would have knocked out anyone else) is greater than anyone ever. Plus he psyched you right out of the fight before the opening bell.

Ali is the "Greatest of All Time"

 

[nick177th]

This is for Brother "Charlie Dark". If you still think Lennox Lewis could beat this man after you watch this, I don't now WHAT to say. Behold! The greatest that ever lived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFzqAg


How come I can't embed? I had to post a link. How are you all embedding and I can't?

 

[Big Philly]

The one thing that Ali did to opponents was to get in their heads with the shit he talked. Foreman had that stone cold stare down as with Tyson. Even Lenox Lewis and Frazier had that stare down as well. Well, Frazier was just ugly as hell. But nobody talked shit like Ali in and out that ring. There are so many valid and interesting points on this thread. But like I said before Ali would have beaten Lennox Lewis because he was able to adjust to so many different fighters. Some of y'all brought up when Ali lost to that British white boy Henry Cooper. That was 1963 when Ali's name was Classius Clay. Keep it real fellas, Ali wasn't even in his prime yet. You shouldn't even think that Lennox could beat Ali because Lennox wouldn't be able to beat Foreman if all of these fighters were in their primes. I already broke down my points earlier.

Hey Nick, I remember seeing that fight a dozen times. Frazier was on top of the world when he was champ and styling like a king. Ali was muslum and so much support from the low income and struggling people and even much of the middle class at that time. So Ali was the favorite to beat Frazier in Ali vs Frazier (first fight of the two). Ali was just coming back with rage to get that stripped title and now he was to face the 'Uncle Tom' Joe Frazier that was awarded due to a vacated belt. I originally posted some wrong facts.

Here's that link to Henry Cooper beating Classius Clay (Ali)
3 min. Nick177th clarified that Ali won this fight and this vid confirms that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di4uErQBRKM&mode=related&search=

Ali never lost to Henry Cooper. In their first fight Cooper was getting his ass kicked and caught Ali with a viscious left hook that should have knocked him out. Ali got up and was saved by the bell. Between rounds Ali's trainer, Angelo Dundee tore his glove to give him time to rest. After a short recess the fight continued and Ali put it on Cooper and stopped him due to cuts. In the rematch Ali beat the shit out of him.

 

[nick177th]

YOu make good points here but if you watch the Ali fights people that gave him the best fights were active fighters who threw great left hooks. Cooper, Frazier, and Norton were those types of fighters. Ali prayed on bigger straight up and down fighters like Ernie Terrell, Cleveland Williams and George Foreman. Although Lennox moved better than Foreman and Terrell he stood straight up like them and was about the same fighter as Williams (who was great by the way). The reality of it is that the Ali that beat Terrell, Williams, Ellis, Foley and Patterson could beat any fighter of any era of any size. His ability to hit without being hit and then to take a punch (the left hooks that put him down against Frazier and Cooper would have knocked out anyone else) is greater than anyone ever. Plus he psyched you right out of the fight before the opening bell.

Ali is the "Greatest of All Time"

Bingo!! right on the nose. Ali was susceptible to a left hook. THAT'S who gave him problems. not Boxers.

 

[charlie dark]

This is for Brother "Charlie Dark". If you still think Lennox Lewis could beat this man after you watch this, I don't now WHAT to say. Behold! The greatest that ever lived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFzqAg


How come I can't embed? I had to post a link. How are you all embedding and I can't?

First let me say, that as a piece boxing masterclass, an impresive performance by Ali.
But before we get carried away with that performance I think I should draw your attention to a few minor points
1 It was rumoured that before the fight Cleveland Williams didn't even want to come out of his dressing room.
2 If you saw the way he fought or didn't fight that's not hard to believe.
3 If you look at the punches thrown by Ali none of them actually carried much weight, granted they were quick, but hard I think not.
4 Cleveland Williams offered no resistance what so ever, no defense no attack nothing
5 Did you see the first attempt of a punch that Cleveland Williams tried to throw, it was feeble he wasn't even trying to hit Ali.
6 I'm sure the jerry curl juice he wore in his hair must have impaired his vision.
7 Look at Cleveland Williams physical build, it doesn't even compare to that of Lennox or any other contemporary heavy weight.
8 In conclusion Ali couldn't have thrown those kind of punches to Lewis and expect the same kind of result.

Can I get an Amen????

 

[nick177th]

First let me say, that as a piece boxing masterclass, an impresive performance by Ali.
But before we get carried away with that performance I think I should draw your attention to a few minor points
1 It was rumoured that before the fight Cleveland Williams didn't even want to come out of his dressing room.
2 If you saw the way he fought or didn't fight that's not hard to believe.
3 If you look at the punches thrown by Ali none of them actually carried much weight, granted they were quick, but hard I think not.
4 Cleveland Williams offered no resistance what so ever, no defense no attack nothing
5 Did you see the first attempt of a punch that Cleveland Williams tried to throw, it was feeble he wasn't even trying to hit Ali.
6 I'm sure the jerry curl juice he wore in his hair must have impaired his vision.
7 Look at Cleveland Williams physical build, it doesn't even compare to that of Lennox or any other contemporary heavy weight.
8 In conclusion Ali couldn't have thrown those kind of punches to Lewis and expect the same kind of result.

Can I get an Amen????

would you have wanted to come out of the locker room to take an ass whoopin' like that? and the name of the game is "Boxing". not "Knockout". However, did you see Ali knock him down backing up? pitter patter huh? Brother CD, one day, you'll see the light. I guess not today though.

 

[Gazoo]

Re: Muhammad Ali vs. Lennox Lewis

The Ernie Terrell fight was interesting for Ali. Terrill was 6'6". You'd think with a much taller person it would have effected him a lot more. He still led with the right (a no no), leaned back defensively (a no no for most boxers). It showed how he might have possibly fought Lewis.

This post has gotten out of hand. Poor Lennox.

 

[Big Philly]

First let me say, that as a piece boxing masterclass, an impresive performance by Ali.
But before we get carried away with that performance I think I should draw your attention to a few minor points
1 It was rumoured that before the fight Cleveland Williams didn't even want to come out of his dressing room.
No fighter wanted to come out of the locker room because they had never seen anything like Ali.
2 If you saw the way he fought or didn't fight that's not hard to believe.
He was really good. It wasn't that he was doing anything different. Ali made him look bad.
3 If you look at the punches thrown by Ali none of them actually carried much weight, granted they were quick, but hard I think not.
He knocked him down a bunch of times???
4 Cleveland Williams offered no resistance what so ever, no defense no attack nothing
Ali was so fast that there was no attack or defense. Again no one had ever seen anything like Ali. There was no tactic to deal with him.
5 Did you see the first attempt of a punch that Cleveland Williams tried to throw, it was feeble he wasn't even trying to hit Ali.
See my response to #4
6 I'm sure the jerry curl juice he wore in his hair must have impaired his vision.
Like Lewis' dread locks?
7 Look at Cleveland Williams physical build, it doesn't even compare to that of Lennox or any other contemporary heavy weight.
Are you crazy? He was 6'4" and 225. His build was awesome.
8 In conclusion Ali couldn't have thrown those kind of punches to Lewis and expect the same kind of result.
Why not? Ali made many a great boxer look like shit.

Can I get an Amen????

You cannot get an amen because your religion is bad. It's obvious that you are too young to appreciate Ali. He was totally different and so hard to prepare for because there was no one anything like him.