Guess some people finding out that democracy is a big farce.
Patiently waiting.
Patiently waiting.
Mueller Report Out! (AG Barr Edition: download within)
- Thread starter sharkbait28
- Start date
If people wanted to know,they could know now, and you’re not going to learn anythingfrom people pleading the 5th.
People are setting themselves up for major disappointment thinking Trump support or indifference comes from people not knowing what he’s done. You can spend months with public hearings just for the public to say “we still don’t care” and trump’s approval numbers will stay the same.
That's kind of a myopic way to look at it. That's not how people work. The Nixon impeachment hearings are a prime example to counter what you're saying. Public opinion shifted significantly with public hearings because they're not filtered by the media and most people only "read" headlines and not in-depth articles for various reasons. It might not make a difference for you or I but it does for millions of low-info voters who don't read or don't have the capacity to filter through all the media noise.
Impeachment is not a "criminal trial"... pleading the 5th isn't really going to be an issue. Refusing to comply would cause you to be held in contempt (jail time) if you were to disobey a subpoena without adequate excuse.
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If it didn't matter, why are the first polls out (Post Mueller report) showing a huge hit to Trump's numbers?....Putting him at his lowest approval in several months?
There are millions of people who aren't locked in. You're not going to change the base of either parties, but millions of American are going to be swayed (one way or another) through public hearings.
And public hearings can be congressional investigations that aren't impeachment proceedings.
It's hard for me to even understand how someone could think having these people on the stand admitting their crimes (and not just being able to use press releases and fox news as a filter) won't be highly damaging.
It's the thing they've most feared out of all of this because they know the criminal liability for Trump isn't there because he's in office.
But this is what you want to do.... keep his approval numbers locked in. The GOP will get washed if Trump stays at 40%. What you don't want him doing is running the next year and half on being completely "vindicated and watch his numbers rise as people begin to think that it really was a "witch hunt". Make him and GOP defend this shit all the way up to the election. Public hearings keep them on defense (like they've been this week since the release and how they weren't following Barr's 4 page memo).
The Dems should be able to both campaign on the issues and have the House do oversight.
If you don't want impeachment, you should at least be for Congressional investigations that lead to public hearings.
Smdh...
The problem with this is those low info voters aren't going to watch those hearings for the most part.
Low info voters get their news from Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, etc. and what they'll see will be posted based off who they like/follow/subscribe to and therefore the information will be filtered to fit their narrow views and biases.
Thise dudes would plead the 5th before admitting crimes.
You had Trump’s voice on tape commiting felony campaign fraud broadcast to the world.
You had the president of the United States tell the nation I believe Putin over you.
The same thing always happens. His numbers drop 5 points for a week or two. Then come right back.
Every time.
And every time Dems say, if we just show it to everybody, they’ll come around.
You had Trump’s voice on tape admitting sexual assault and he was elected president.
Come on man. How many more crimes does he have to admit to without losing any long term support before we just accept none of that stuff affects him.
He just openly flaunted the fucking Constitution and declared an illegal national emergency, grabbing constitutional Article 2 power from the Congress and then at the same press conference admitted there was national emergency, he didn’t have to do it, he just wanted it faster.
The Washington Post has a detailed list of 9000 lies he has told that any American can read.
You think everyone is like you and cares about Democracy and the constitutional and political institutions. These people only care about themselves and they’ve been told Trump will kick these other groups out and give them their country back.
These people in the middle do not care. They care about if they’re going to be abke to take them and their kids to the doctor. And they assume all politicians are crooks anyway so they’re not shocked by any of this.
I’m all for hearings. That’s the smart play. You can keep those going.
And let me repeat. I DO want to impeach him. He deserves it. I just think 4 more years of him is the worst thing possible.
Liar
Go back to being wrong about everything you type. Mr. Oh wait, you never stopped. Mr “we need to impeach to convict’
exactly. ppl need to stop being so scared. no one will defeat trump being defensive until the election
More than 20 million people watched the Kavanaugh hearings. How many 10s of millions more are going to watch impeachment hearings?
Low info-voters consume more tv than any other category.
So your issue is more with impeachment hearings as opposed to congressional hearings?
I get it. If they don't go for impeachment (which I think they should), I would be fine with congressional investigations that lead to public hearings because it's going to accomplish much of the same things.
But what do you think is keeping his favorable ratings low? It's because the light is always on his criminal behavior. You're not going to take him much lower than 37-40%. You're not really worried about taking him lower than that. You're worried about KEEPING HIM THERE. As long as you keep him there, you're fine. All the stuff you listed is regarding how his BASE responds to him. Fuck his base. He has them. It's everyone else you need to worry about. The middle and the Dems.
I think what people are missing is that the reason why Trump can't move beyond his base is because of the ongoing investigations that hang over his head. You continue to beat him with it as long as you can. That's how the right did with Benghazi with Hillary. Keep at it and make it stick. If you can keep him at 40%, you'll have a great chance of winning if you get anyone besides a shitty candidate that doesn't file up the base + pull the center.
One of the governmental scholars need to help me and tell me what power congress has. Because pretty much everyone they questions says “Fuck You! I’m not answering shit!” And that’s it.
Why answer any question to a body that doesn’t seem to be able to punish you at all? Either they don’t have the power or they still haven’t execute it.
If they have the power to throw people in jail for not answering questions and haven’t done it then shame on them.
You supposed to stepping in folks throats as soon as they walk in. Barr? Through his ass in jail! Sessions? Through his ass in jail.
Why answer any question to a body that doesn’t seem to be able to punish you at all? Either they don’t have the power or they still haven’t execute it.
If they have the power to throw people in jail for not answering questions and haven’t done it then shame on them.
You supposed to stepping in folks throats as soon as they walk in. Barr? Through his ass in jail! Sessions? Through his ass in jail.
I actually think that's what the Dems are going to do UNLESS Mueller comes out and gives them something else when they finally get him to testify.
They're worried about any potential blowback (which I think is overblown). They'll get less bang for the buck with congressional hearings, but I think knowing the Senate won't convict regardless and that fact that the Senate actually manages the trial, they might just default to Congressional oversight. The problem is that Trump's admin is literally breaking the law and not complying. It's unconstitutional for The Treasure Department to deny the Ways and Means committee tax returns request. So one major issue with Congressional Oversight (as opposed to impeachment) is that the Trump admin will simply not cooperate and run out the clock and they absolutely can't do that in an impeachment hearing.
I was just saying the same thing above . Munchin denying the Ways and Means committee is absolutely breaking the law. It's clearly stated in the constitution that the Treasure Department SHALL deliver any tax returns that are requested formally by Congress.
Because nothing ever happens, they're becoming more brazen in breaking the law. That's why impeachment might be the only recourse, because it sets off a whole different set of actions that limits executive powers.
Keep the pressure on and what Trump lose it even more. He's the idiot savant. He really thought Barr was going to come in and bury this and he was going to be able to move on. With the pressure being just the same or even now more heightened after he was supposedly "vindicated", he's going to be even more impulsively defiant and destructive which will ultimately continue to drag his administration down.
The last thing you want right now is for him to be able to move and and be like "See... this was really a witch hunt and now look at these great economic numbers"
He has zero impulse control. He won't be able to move on with his messaging and if he continues to talk about this Mueller report, the 2020 election becomes a referendum on him and not any of the "GOP accomplishment". You'll make the setup just like the midterms.
Let the House focus on it and tell the candidates to stay focus on hot issues that voters care about... just like the midterms... during the midterms the candidates weren't really focused on Trump... they stayed on healthcare, immigration, etc...
If Pelosi handles this correctly, she can keep the Trump admin all tied up in corruption hearings and the Dem candidates can focus on the issues and contrast with Trump. It's the perfect setup if the dems don't fuck it up.
The last thing you want right now is for him to be able to move and and be like "See... this was really a witch hunt and now look at these great economic numbers"
He has zero impulse control. He won't be able to move on with his messaging and if he continues to talk about this Mueller report, the 2020 election becomes a referendum on him and not any of the "GOP accomplishment". You'll make the setup just like the midterms.
Let the House focus on it and tell the candidates to stay focus on hot issues that voters care about... just like the midterms... during the midterms the candidates weren't really focused on Trump... they stayed on healthcare, immigration, etc...
If Pelosi handles this correctly, she can keep the Trump admin all tied up in corruption hearings and the Dem candidates can focus on the issues and contrast with Trump. It's the perfect setup if the dems don't fuck it up.
And for anyone who thinks no one will tune it..at any given time (not just collectively just at any time you checked) more than 20% of the U.S. was watching the Kavanaugh hearing. Surely, an impeachment hearing or formal public hearings into the Mueller report/obstruction would be significantly higher.
https://qz.com/1407118/kavanaugh-hearings-watched-by-tens-of-millions-of-americans/
https://qz.com/1407118/kavanaugh-hearings-watched-by-tens-of-millions-of-americans/
If anything it just highlights how flawed and broken our governments checks and balance system is. You shouldn't walk into Congress feeling brazen! That should never happen no matter who you are.
I'm under the impression that there are things that Congress can do to people but they've chosen to not do those things. SOFT!!!!
By not doing those things they've made Congress less powerful and less intimidating than walking into a local ticket court room.
There should be consequences to pleading the 5th. You can plead it as that's your right. But in doing so you didn't answer our question and that's a contempt and we're going to exercise our rights!
Eat these 10,20,30,90 days in prison and we'll see you AS SOON as you get out and ask the SAME question.
Let's see who breaks first you or us?
They need to start flexin some serious muscles and stepping on this fools faces! Bullies that think they're above the law will never respect you until you pop them in the face, take their lunch money and those pairs of J's.
So from what I'm reading, the Dems in the House are slow-walking things because if you follow an orderly protocol with requests, you're more likely to win a court battle because you'll be able to display that you pursued every other possible avenue and the administration still failed to cooperate.
That's all well! But the problem is in the interim you've created an environment where you're not feared nor are you respected.
Here's the other thing not everything needs to be by the book. Every once in a while just put your foot up someone's ass! Even if it wasn't by the book. Just walk up and swing on em! Let these fools know you're not the one!
Every once in a while you have to channel your inner-thug! You need these cats to think twice about try'in you.
I know he's in bad odor right now but he has a point
Yeah. I don't agree with it... it's just what I've read in terms of why they're doing it this way.
no he doesn't
either
A -he is ignorant of the frame work Mueller was working under and is willfully not listening to what dem leadership is saying about Barr
or
B -he is trying to manipulate the majority of the ignorant masses that don't know better
I'll be clear - no dem is criticizing Mueller, ALL of the smoke going to the DoJ is for Barr
Honestly, I'm starting to agree. You can't continue to play nice and careful here. As it stands TODAY you probably would lose the election. Even after everything that's taken place.
You can't continue to play this game and hope it will work out in the end. Dems are not going to win this way. They need to make some serious moves.
They absolutely need to find a way to bring Trump before congress. That's all you need! The cat will snitch on himself.
The chances of impeachment are likely slim. In this case, that's not the goal. The goal is to bring that fat bitch in under oath! There's no way he could hold up under questioning.
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And look how that turned out(and that was with Metoo in play). People had their minds made up going in and it showed. This ain't the 70s man. That's when people had 3 channels and had to wait for the morning paper to be told what to think.
People are stuck in their respective bubbles these days. Put it on TV. The low-info voters will just go on social media and see what the 'experts' on their side are saying and parrot that. Those low-info voters will be watching with their phones open having every thought directed. End result? Nothing changes. The hearings minus whale take place in two different universes the way the real-time analysis on each side spins shit.
You're giving the American public way too much credit. What worked in the past doesn't always work now. If this were even 20 years ago, I'd agree with your analysis.
Agreed! If the American people were as educated and cared for their country the way we all hoped. Someone like Trump would never have been president and there's no way he would still be holding the position today.
But if the Dems are going to have any chance then they need to do something radical. There's no way at this speed and campaigning as usual they're going to make up the kind of ground they need to in order to beat Trump.
Something has to give. While I agree that an impeachment hearing isn't likely to result in impeachment then at the very least(if my understanding is correct) if forces Trump to defend himself under oath and publically to questioning.
Right now that's probably the most powerful thing the Dems have at their disposal to possibly gain ground.
Of course it could back fire badly but they honestly have nothing else to turn the tides.
With a historic Mid-Terms win just 3 weeks later? Yes that turned out fucked up for DEMS
Gene. Do you know how many women said they were coming out solely because of the Kavanaugh hearing? Why do you think women DOMINATED the midterms. I think that many people here don't actually dig into the data like I do so they don't really understand how much of an impact these things have.
You're caught up in the confirmation of Kavanaugh.
The Kavanaugh hearing had very little chance of stopping his confirmation. It was more about exposing it for what it was and it riled up the Democratic base. You think they break records during the mid-terms by accident. There is nothing more motivating than an angry base. The Trumpsters are always angry. They're going to show up because Trump keeps them engages. The problem is that the Dems need to keep their base engaged.
Yall keep saying "the people had their minds made up". Do you cats actually read any data on this? Of course you're not changing the opinions of the highly-partisan bases.. but look at everyone else.
have you cats reads the new polling post-Mueller? You think it's a coincidence that Trump was gaining steam after Barr's 4-page memo but NOW he's dropped to his lowest favorables in several months?
Da fuck you think Trump is mad about? because Mueller was being mean to him? He's worried about the shit killing his re-election campaign.
He won the fucking EC by 70,000 votes! Are you cats fucking serious right now??!!!
Do you cats know that literally a .5 swing in votes would have changed the results.
You cats don't think .5 of voters are still undecided????
yall stay on that "dont do shit because nothing matters".
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