Apple is on it's death bed

. HOMEKIT. Yes, that Trojan horse framework, in the form of Apple TV, has already become the hub of the IoT.

I'm willing to bet I had the Apple Homekit SDK before you have even heard of it. I often get access to products months before they're even publicly announced. This ranges from large publicly traded companies to hot startups like Snapchat. I know a product they're launching next that some of Snapchat's employees don't even know is being worked on.

@largebillsonlyplease can confirm this.
 
Apple Watch was supposed to legitimize the wearables industry and it didn't. It's not taken them mainstream. Apple enthusiasts were the main early consumers of the device and when polled, very few, as a percentage, were enamored with the product. The main use case is "notifications" where they can avoid picking up their iPhone. That's not a strong selling point for the masses.

The wearables market isn't big enough to have any meaningful impact on a company of Apple's size. That's why they're going after larger markets like the automotive industry. Those Apple Watch revenues are a rounding error for a company as big as Apple.

I was a strong advocate of Apple Watch but clearly people don't care about a wearable in a watch form. That sales outpaced the first year overalls of the iPhone is misleading because it's decelerated so aggressively.

The reality of the matter is that Apple has yet to build a new compelling product Post-Steve Jobs. And they're a massive company because they've always eaten their own markets before a competitor or competing technology has.
As popular as the iPhone has become, even it didn't legitimize the smartphone sector in its first year. What's with the high expectations with a company that's no longer relevant (according to BGOL)?
 
Apple doesn't have to "win" in order to achieve its goals. Profits. It doesn't sell the most computers or phones but trounces everyone in everything when it comes to profits in each sector. ATV is part of its media consumption ecosystem designed to sell hardware.

Let me rephrase this for you. You mentioned Apple TV as a trojan horse for winning the internet of things in the home (through Siri).
Siri fucking sucks as an audio interface.

Look at the feedback on Siri vs the feedback on Echo. Echo already won. Plus, Amazon is better positioned because they're already own the leg to the own through Amazon Prime.
 
Is Amazon still having problem breaking even?

This is probably the most misunderstood company in all of tech. Amazon "could" show billions in profits IF IT WANTED TO.

Read this article by Ben Evans

http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2014/9/4/why-amazon-has-no-profits-and-why-it-works


Why Amazon Has No Profits (And Why It Works)
September 05, 2014


(I also did a podcast with Ben Horowitz discussing these themes: see here)

Amazon has a tendency to polarize people. On one hand, there is the ruthless, relentless, ferociously efficient company that’s building the Sears Roebuck of the 21st Century. But on the other, there is the fact that almost 20 years after it was launched, it has yet to report a meaningful profit. This chart captures the contradiction pretty well - massive revenue growth, no profits, or so it would seem. But actually, neither of these lines gives you a good sense of what’s really going on.

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Amazon discloses revenue in three segments - Media, Electronics & General Merchandise (‘EGM') and ‘Other’, which is mostly AWS. As this chart shows, these look very different (this and most of the following ones use ’TTM’ - trailing 12 months, which smooths out the seasonal fluctuations and makes it easier to see the underlying trends). The media business is still growing, but it’s the general merchandise that has powered the explosion in revenue in the past few years. Meanwhile, the ‘Other' line is growing but is still much smaller.

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Splitting out the detail, we can see this trend both in North America (NA) and internationally...

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Though the takeoff is particularly strong in the USA.

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Media overall was only 25% of Amazon’s revenue last quarter, and 20% of North America.

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And if we go back to ‘Other’ and zoom in, the growth is pretty dramatic there too.

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It seems pretty likely that these businesses, selling very different products bought with different bargaining positions to different people with different shipping costs, have different margin potential.

This still doesn’t really give an accurate picture, though. Amazon is in fact organized not just in these segments, but in dozens and dozens of separate teams, each with their own internal P&L and a high degree of autonomy. So, say, shoes in Germany, electronics in France or makeup in the USA are all different teams. Each of these businesses, incidentally, sets its own prices. Meanwhile, all of these businesses are at different stages of maturity. Some are relatively old, and well established, and growing slower, and are profitable. Others are new startups building their business and losing money as they do so, like any other new business. Some are very profitable, and some sell at cost or at as loss-leaders to drive traffic and loyalty to the site. Books are a good example. There’s a widespread perception that Amazon sells books at a loss, but the average sales price actually seems to be very close to physical retailers - it discounts some books, but not all, and despite all the argument in the Agency lawsuits, quite how many and how much is (deliberately) as clear as mud.

Amazon is a bundle.

The clearest expression of this is Prime, in which (amongst other things) entertainment content is included at a high fixed cost to Amazon (buying the rights) but no marginal cost beyond bandwidth, as a way to enhance the appeal of being a Prime ‘member'. Prime membership in turn draws people to switch more and more of their online and offline spending to Amazon. Trying to look at the profitability of the video alone misses the point.

And then there are the third party sales. Just as AWS is a platform both for Amazon's own internal technologies and for thousands of startups, so too the logistics and commerce infrastructure themselves are a platform for lots and lots of different Amazon businesses, and also for lots of other companies selling physical products through Amazon’s site. Third party sales of products through Amazon’s own platform are now 40% of unit sales, and the fees charged to these vendors are now 20% of Amazon’s revenue.

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This means, in passing, that for close to half of the units sold on Amazon.com, Amazon does not set the price, it just takes a margin. This alone should point to the weakness of the idea that Amazon’s growth is based on selling at cost or at a loss.

The tricky thing about these third party (‘3P’) sales is that Amazon only recognizes revenue from the services it provides to those companies, not the value of the goods sold. So if you buy a pair of shoes on Amazon from a third party, Amazon might collect payment through your Amazon account and ship them from its warehouse using its shipping partners - but only show the shipping and payment fees it charged to the shoe vendor as revenue. It does not disclose the gross revenue (‘GMV’). Given that (as it does disclose) third party sales tend to have a higher unit value, this means that the total value of goods that pass though Amazon with Amazon taking a percentage is perhaps double the revenue that Amazon actually reports. So, the revenue line is not really telling you what's going on, and this is also one reason why gross margin is pretty misleading too. Gross profit has risen from 22.4% in 2011 to 27.2% in 2013, but this does not really reflect a change in consumer pricing and margins thereof, but rather this change in mix.

So, we have dozens of separate businesses within Amazon, and over two million third party seller accounts, all sitting on top of the Amazon fulfillment and commerce platform. Some of them are mature and profitable, and some are not. And someone at Amazon has the job of making sure that each quarter, this nets out to as close to zero as possible, at least as far as net income goes. That is, the problem with net income is that all it tells us is that every quarter, Amazon spends whatever’s left over to get the number to zero or thereabouts. There’s really no other way to achieve that sort of consistency.

If you listen closely, Amazon itself tells us this. The image below comes straight from Amazon - originally it was a napkin sketch by Jeff Bezos. Note that there’s no arrow pointing outwards labeled 'take profits.’ This is a closed loop.

(Source: Amazon)

" id="yui_3_17_2_1_1461857368398_236" style="line-height: 0; text-align: center; position: relative; overflow: hidden; padding-bottom: 400px;">
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(Source: Amazon)



In any case, profits as reported in the net income line are a pretty bad way to try to understand a business like this - actual cash flow is better. As the saying goes, profit is opinion but cash is a fact, and Amazon itself talks about cash flow, not net income (Enron, for obvious and nefarious reasons, was the other way around). Amazon focuses very much on free cash flow (FCF), but it’s very useful to look also at operating cash flow (OCF), which is simply what you get adding back capital expenditure (‘capex'). In effect, OCF is the bulk of running the business before the costs of the infrastructure, M&A and financing costs. This shows you the effect of selling at low prices. As we can see here, Amazon’s OCF margin has been very roughly stable for a decade, but the FCF has fallen, due to radically increased capex.

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In absolute terms, you can therefore see a business that is spinning out rapidly growing amounts of operating cash flow - over $5bn in the last 12 months - and ploughing it back into the business as capex.

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Charting this as lines rather than areas shows just how consistent the growth in capex has been.

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One might suggest that in a logistics business with rapid revenue growth, rapid capex growth is only natural, and one should look at the ratio of capex to sales by itself. But in fact, the increase here is even more dramatic. Starting in 2009, Amazon began spending far more on capex for every dollar that comes in the door, and there’s no sign of the rate of increase slowing down.

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If Amazon had held capex/sales at the same ratio from 2009, before it exploded, then FCF would look like this. That difference adds up to just over $3bn of cash in the last 12 months. That is, if Amazon was spending the same on capex per dollar of revenue as it was in 2009, it would have kept $3bn more in cash in the last 12 months.

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So where’s all the extra capex going? And, crucially, does it need to stay at these new, higher levels to support Amazon's business, or can it come back down in the future?

It’s pretty apparent that the money is going into more fulfillment capacity (warehouses, to put it crudely) and to AWS. Hence, this chart shows an enormous increase in Amazon’s physical infrastructure, as measured in square feet - this is almost all fulfillment rather than data centers, though Amazon no longer gives a split.

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Pulling apart precisely where the money's going, though, is a little fiddlier. The increase is driven by some combination of four things:

  1. More capacity for more products, including 3P products
  2. Proximity - as Amazon builds warehouses closer to customers, the shipping time goes down and so too does the shipping cost, a further flywheel effect for Prime
  3. AWS
  4. More expensive warehouses - that is, the existing business is becoming more expensive to run
The first two of these are straightforward investment in the future, often delivering higher future margins. AWS is a black box and a much debated puzzle, but it is also pretty much the definition of a new business that requires investment to grow. The real bear case here would be the last point - that the existing business is becoming more capex-intensive - that more dollars of capex are needed for every dollar of current revenue.

Just to make life harder for those looking to understand Amazon’s financials, the warehouse expansion, capex expansion and AWS build-out all started at roughly the same time, and at that same moment Amazon changed the way it reports to make it very hard to pick them apart. Until 2010 it split both property and asset value between fulfillment and data centers, but at that point it stopped, probably not by co-incidence (in 2010 Amazon had just 775k square feet for data centers and customer service combined). In the meantime, there are various metrics (capex per square foot, for example) that would show a shift of spending from cheap warehouse to expensive data centers - but they would also show a shift from maintaining existing warehouses to building new ones. So there is no direct, easy way we can see the split.

We can still, though, get a something of a sense of the key warehouse question - has the business got more expensive to run? It looks like the answer is no. First, the third party sales do not seem to be the issue: ratio of 3P units has not gone up at anything like the way the capex/sales has over the same period (here’s that chart again).

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Neither is there any sign of a shift in the fulfillment costs over the period (Amazon seems to have forgotten to stop disclosing these). The physical product mix hasn’t got dramatically more expensive to ship, so would it get dramatically more capex-intensive to warehouse? This is obviously not an exact proxy, but it seems unlikely.

15.png

So, though we can’t be sure, it looks like the capex is not going up because Amazon’s existing business has become more expensive to run, but because Amazon is investing the growing pool of operation cash flow into the future. All of this brings us back to the beginning - Amazon’s business is delivering very rapid revenue growth but not accumulating any surplus cash or profits, because every penny of cash is being ploughed back into expanding the business further. But, this is not because any given business runs permanently at a loss - it is because the profits from what is already there are spent on making new businesses. In the past, that was mostly in operations, but in recent years the investment firehose has again been pointed at capex.

How long will this investment go on for? Well, do we believe that the conversion of products and businesses to online commerce is finished? Let’s rebase that revenue chart, and look at it as share of US retail revenue. Excluding gasoline, food and things like timber and plants,all hard to ship, at least for now, Amazon has about 1%.

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Overall, US commerce is growing very consistently:

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And Amazon is taking an accelerating share of it.

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Amazon has perhaps 1% of the US retail market by value. Should it stop entering new categories and markets and instead take profit, and by extension leave those segments and markets for other companies? Or should it keep investing to sweep them into the platform? Jeff Bezos’s view is pretty clear: keep investing, because to take profit out of the business would be to waste the opportunity. He seems very happy to keep seizing new opportunities, creating new businesses, and using every last penny to do it.

Still, investors put their money into companies, Amazon and any other, with the expectation that at some point they will get cash out. With Amazon, Bezos is deferring that profit-producing, investor-rewarding day almost indefinitely into the future. This prompts the suggestion that Amazon is the world's biggest 'lifestyle business' - Bezos is running it for fun, not to deliver economic returns to shareholders, at least not any time soon.

But while he certainly does seem to be having fun, he is also building a company, with all the cash he can get his hands on, to capture a larger and larger share of the future of commerce. When you buy Amazon stock (the main currency with which Amazon employees are paid, incidentally), you are buying a bet that he can convert a huge portion of all commerce to flow through the Amazon machine. The question to ask isn’t whether Amazon is some profitless ponzi scheme, but whether you believe Bezos can capture the future. That, and how long are you willing to wait?
 
As popular as the iPhone has become, even it didn't legitimize the smartphone sector in its first year. What's with the high expectations with a company that's no longer relevant (according to BGOL)?

It certainly did legitimize the sector for everyone other than it's competitors who tried to convince themselves they were going to survive.

Ignore the harsh words by @kayanation that he used to spur conversation and look at what he's getting at.

Apple has a quarter of a trillion dollar in cash and a highly profitable business. It can buy entire industries. He's not saying they aren't relevant.

He is pointing out something that is true. Their core business has matured and they've yet to introduce anything that can replace it.

That's going to be a problem for that and it's something everyone feared with Steve Job's passing... can this company produce another transformative product.

Cook has done what he was expected to do as an operator. He has the company churning out extraordinary profits.

The problem is where's the next innovation to dominate the next decade. It's not there yet.
 
Let me rephrase this for you. You mentioned Apple TV as a trojan horse for winning the internet of things in the home (through Siri).
Siri fucking sucks as an audio interface.

Look at the feedback on Siri vs the feedback on Echo. Echo already won. Plus, Amazon is better positioned because they're already own the leg to the own through Amazon Prime.
Let me rephrase for you. The implication of this thread was that there was no IoT strategy in place. I proved this to be false. I never said anything about "winning".
 
And the WWDC is still the hottest ticket in development. No platform survives w/o an active, PROSPEROUS dev community.

Who is building on the Homekit SDK though? That's what you're arguing...not about the app store in general.
 
As much as I hate Apple those bastards are not going anywhere. That's like Disney saying Age of Ultron was a failure because it made 1.2 billion instead of 1.6 (or something like that). Apple has the millennial market on lock. You have a bad quarter sometimes - even Apple. Maybe the sheeple who swear by them woke up and said "just cuz Apple made it I really don't need this tech" or maybe they said "I love Apple but they are not moving me now with this incremental bs technology this time". Whatever it is there are too many entire families that have whole entertainment ecosystem revolves around their products. So believe this is a blip. Unlike Motorola Apple will innovate and evolve from this. Nokia, Blackberry and Motorola were dumbasses.
They had one bad quarter in 10 years. Ten years! I say burn Tim Cooks alive.
 
I'm willing to bet I had the Apple Homekit SDK before you have even heard of it. I often get access to products months before they're even publicly announced. This ranges from large publicly traded companies to hot startups like Snapchat. I know a product they're launching next that some of Snapchat's employees don't even know is being worked on.

@largebillsonlyplease can confirm this.

Confirmed and enjoying the perks of that access my damn self.
 
Let me rephrase for you. The implication of this thread was that there was no IoT strategy in place. I proved this to be false. I never said anything about "winning".

I think you and Kayanation have an argument over semantics. Kaya is very aware of SKDs like homekit. I think he's saying by "no plan in place" in that "no well-thought out plan that if executed leads to them winning the market'. But I'll let you two argue that.
 
They had one bad quarter in 10 years. Ten years! I say burn Tim Cooks alive.

Their "bad quarter" is better than some entire sectors.

Kaya is getting at something bigger. A majority of their profits have been driven by the iPhone and that market has matured. Their core business is no longer a growth business. It's still going to be HIGHLY profitable because tech businesses at the tail of their growth are usually at their most profitable (high sales, years of optimization, supply chain economics, etc)

They were able to drive growth with the Ipod. It was their core growth engine in 2006. It's the iPhone in 2016. That's no longer accelerating. What's next? What's going to be the core engine driver of growth (cars?).
 
Until you see people stop believing that Apple products are "cool" and make them look cool Apple will be safe and a powerhouse.
 
I think this will be the same for all phone companies. Not much you can do technology wise. To me the end was when Samsung made the water resistant phone. Most people damage their phone due to water. So if that is no longer an issue, what reason do I have replace my device with a phone that uses the same technology every year? I'm not an Apple fan, but Steve Jobs would have had Apple on some new shit years ago.
 
I think you and Kayanation have an argument over semantics. Kaya is very aware of SKDs like homekit. I think he's saying by "no plan in place" in that "no well-thought out plan that if executed leads to them winning the market'. But I'll let you two argue that.
No matter what context you or anyone else may suggest, Apple has never had to "win" market share to succeed.
 
No matter what context you or anyone else may suggest, Apple has never had to "win" market share to succeed.

Let me help you again.

When you're selling software/service you do to the mass market you need market share, period. If what's next is not a highly coupled hardware/software product, the rules aren't the same.

So again, what's the next high-growth device to carry Apple since the iPhone has decelerated and the smartphone market is now matured.

Your argument sounds very "Ford" before GM ate their launch with the "people can own a Ford in any color they want as long as it's black".

Apple dominated the transition from PC to Mobile. The transition is mostly over everywhere except in poor developing countries (which android will win solely because of pricing).

So what's next after mobile and what is Apple doing in those markets..which is what Kaya is getting it.

Apple had the team and engineering resources and culture to build a mini computer (which is all a smartphone is).. they had the best team for it. But what about with Cars... what about with VR/AR/MR like Magic Leap is doing, for instance.

They aren't going to win on Homekit or Healthkit, boss. That just extends the app store. The next great tech on smartphones and devices might not even be "app-based". There's a real argument for bots.

So again.. it's wide open.
 
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Now post the app install numbers for all the apps using homekit. I bet you I can name ONE game with more installs than the entire sector.

I'm almost asking your rhetorically because I know the numbers. I actually helped debut homekit and healthkit for a large community. I had access before they were publicly available.
 
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Let me help you again.

When you're selling software/service you do to the mass market you need market share, period. If what's next is not a highly coupled hardware/software product, the rules aren't the same.

So again, what's the next high-growth device to carry Apple since the iPhone has decelerated and the smartphone market is now matured.

Your argument sounds very "Ford" before GM ate their launch with the "people can own a Ford in any color they want as long as it's black".
Let me help you again. I've already pointed out hat the iPhone was not a market share leader (and has never been) for Apple to achieve it's goals. You seem to be on a "Micro$oft" mentality when it comes to success in the tech industry.

I have already pointed out ventures that are too early to judge. Just like the iPhone in 2007-08. Your argument is the same one the pundits and BGOL "experts" had about the iPhone and Apple for its first few years on the market.
 
Now post the app install numbers for all the apps using homekit. I bet you I can name ONE game with more installs than the entire sector.

I'm almost asking your rhetorically because I know the numbers. I actually helped debut homekit and healthkit for a large community. I had access before they were publicly available.
Post them then. I'm not in awe of you like some of theses gullible negroes. Again, you fail to understand the bigger picture. "Microsoft" think no longer the prevailing strategy in tech.
 
Let me help you again. I've already pointed out hat the iPhone was not a market share leader (and has never been) for Apple to achieve it's goals. .

You can't help me out here.

Apple pioneered the market for smartphones and WAS a market leader until Android caught up in volume. And, the entire world has/had an appetite for a mini-computer they could hold in their hand.

Now that they have that, what's the compelling case for the Apple Watch when for most people, their smartphone can already handle all of their tasks. You should read the Innovator's Dilemma, it will help you out.

There is not compelling value add for wearables as a mass market device. It's a niche product for various verticles..nothing more at this point. That's obvious.

Now for watchkit and healthhit, where are the billions in profits going to be earned for Apple? You're convinced, just lay it out.
 
He is pointing out something that is true. Their core business has matured and they've yet to introduce anything that can replace it.


Digital content distribution will be their bread and butter going forward.

They own that lane on the internet for the time being.

That's going to be a problem for that and it's something everyone feared with Steve Job's passing... can this company produce another transformative product.

Cook has done what he was expected to do as an operator. He has the company churning out extraordinary profits.

The problem is where's the next innovation to dominate the next decade. It's not there yet.

I don't buy this when people say it.

Steve Jobs had his vision for siri and the iPad in the 80s, I find it hard to believe that he didn't have a 20 year roadmap laid out for his company before he left.
 
Post them then. I'm not in awe of you like some of theses gullible negroes. Again, you fail to understand the bigger picture. "Microsoft" think no longer the prevailing strategy in tech.

Ain't nobody in here in awe of me. And Microsoft.. da fuck are you talking about? Is your thinking so myopic on this topic that your only fallback is "Microsoft think". This is no way shape of form even remotely relates to any strategy deployed by Microsoft.

Before we talk about the "bigger picture". Let's get the pixels together. What are you seeing in the market now right now that indicates homekit and healthkit are gaining meaningful traction so that Apple will have a meaningful position in IoT. That's your argument. Just back it up.
 


Digital content distribution will be their bread and butter going forward.

They own that lane on the internet for the time being..

That's why I agreed with someone above in that should purchase companies that own distribution (like Netflix).

Apple is notoriously horrible with building software/services (itunes, icloud, etc). They have 230B. Just buy your way in in the same way they should have purchased Dropbox instead of continuing with that shitty Icloud.

They buy your way in.



Steve Jobs had his vision for siri and the iPad in the 80s, I find it hard to believe that he didn't have a 20 year roadmap laid out for his company before he left.

Steve's next major project was the TV but he never finished it.
 
Ain't nobody in here in awe of me. And Microsoft.. da fuck are you talking about? Is your thinking so myopic on this topic that your only fallback is "Microsoft think". This is no way shape of form even remotely relates to any strategy deployed by Microsoft.

Before we talk about the "bigger picture". Let's get the pixels together. What are you seeing in the market now right now that indicates homekit and healthkit are gaining meaningful traction so that Apple will have a meaningful position in IoT. That's your argument. Just back it up.
I got things to do. I'll reply later....or bump this thread in a few like I've been doing for the past 9 years.

They say a broke clock is right twice a day. BGOL tech experts THINK they're right once a decade.
 
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False.
Semantics are important. A "smart" phone wasn't any phone that has an operating system. That's an extremely loose definition. Just as a hydrid car isn't a real "electric" car like a Tesla.

And at its peak the iphone had had more than twice the market share as it's next biggest competitor. You're still confusing the issue though. If you're not specifically talking about a computing device, the market share vs profit share argument is moot because it doesn't apply to anything outside of that tightly coupled hardware/software product
 
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BGOL tech experts THINK they're right once a decade.

YOU'RE the BGOL tech expect though. You're talking about yourself and don't realize it!!!!:lol:

@kayanation and I actually personally know the tech leads on some of these products mentioned on this thread, boss.

You're not going to drop anything in here we hadn't likely heard about before and may have even heard about it before an article was written about it.
 
Apple has taken most of Tesla's engineers and Elon has already come to grips with his zero sum reality.

You do know that for every FIVE engineers that Tesla poaches from Apple, Apple poaches back ONE. Tesla is clearly winning the poaching wars, boss.

:lol:
Elon Musk Has Raided 150 People From Apple For Tesla

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...150-people-from-apple-for-tesla/#2b97382a6d91
vs

Apple poaches ONE Telsa engineer
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-te...-growing-team-of-automated-car-experts-2015-8
 
The HTC does the same thing with better battery life (just the camera sucks)and a third of the price. Europe knows what's up
 
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