Makkonnen said:
Do you have evidence of this? An admission possibly?
Invoking fuckin Hitler? Dude.......
I see what you are talking about just like I saw it in Libya. I see alot more parrallels with Libya than Nazi Germany. From his coup attempts down to his rank when he tried it I see way more similarities there than with HITLER.
damn man hitler?
Makk.. my equation with Hitler was to the point of a dictator being voted into office initially. Hitler was the first dictator that came to mind. However, I was not associating him with the mass genocide, etc and that was not the intent.
My beef with Chavez is not his apparent anti U.S. sentiment like most opponents.. Because in many cases, how could you argue with the things he says about Bush. Actually, I think he would be much more effective if he didnt go the emotional route.. like in front of the U.N. and call Bush, the devil, and be more forthright with the facts..but he is a politician that knows what resonates with the media and the people. So I understand his tactics.
The problem I have with Chavez is his politics. I dont care who the actual person is.. I would not agree with anyone who advocated anything like the Bolivarian Revolution. I would be talking the same shit about my momma if she did it.
Makkonnen said:
Would Cuba even be the way it is in regards to politically one partied, authoritarian etc if it weren't for 50 years of US oppression? No. Are most cubans better off now than they'd be under the old system? Hell yeah. Is it what I'd call ideal? No. If you want to blame someone for how Cuba is blame the USA. If you want to blame someone for how Venezuela is and the actions Hugo feels he has to take blame the USA. If not for 100yrs of US interference in South American, Central American and Caribbean politics there wouldn't be such severely oppressive governments and societies or the need for people to rise up to counter them.
The world aint a vacuum and Chavez and Castro did not create themselves by themselves.
So.. the economic problems of Venezuela are because of the U.S.
Furthermore Makk. What does that have to do with the validity of his Bolivarian Revolution..
Why is the choice of SOCIALISM the best one. I dont give a damn if Aliens ran the country 200 years ago. How does one come to the conclusion that socialism has the answers.
How many countries in Latin American have you been to. I have crossed the border to shit hole of Paraguay just recently that has had little American influence. Dont try to blame the entire plight of the world on the U.S.
The reality of the matter is that internal politics of this nations are to blame for the most part..especially these hard core leftists policies that consistently produce the same horrible results.
Why does going 100 year back in the past have to do with him implementing a political-economical system that has a 100 percent failure rate.
Makkonnen said:
I don't hear anything regarding the white aristocrats who had the country on lock down and still continuously engage in a war of dirty tricks etc with him all the time in relation to Chavez's power consolidation and other moves.
Are we arguing IMF-World Bank- Aristocracy- or the merits of the Bolivarian Revolution..which are distinctive.
We can make a different argument but I have been arguing against the politics of Chavez. And THEY CAN BE judged independently on its own merits Makk.
Makkonnen said:
The CEO said.........? Please bruh. You are quoting people who sit together in meetings on how to keep their hands around the neck of the nation. You do realize that right? The owner of that station along with the owner of Coke down there and many others especially in the oil industry ran the coup, planned the coup, had snipers take shots at a Chavez rally etc. Please.
The lead reporter for that station quit over their manipulation of shit. Quoting the cat's explanation of what happened to the canary? Not convincing.
Courts? How many people did Chavez have killed after the coup? How many organizers went to prison for violating the law? You are championing those who willfully violated the nation's constitution and attacking the only ones who have lived by the law.
You are arguing your case regarding your "predictions" of how Chavez will turn into a monster by quoting and portraying the situation in the exact light that the current actual monsters have laid out.
Again Makk... Are you suggesting that decisions that effect the entire population should be made arbitrarily but one person..Chavez. As opposed to be help democratically with courts. This station being BEHIND the coup is nothing but speculation until proven in the court of law. Where is the hard evidence that proves any of what you are saying. It has not been produced because it has only been speculated about. The evidence has not been brought forth in an undisputed manner. That is why we have courts and tribunals... not arbitrary made by one person.
So Chavez is credible but the CEO isnt
. By what right Makk. Let an unbiased court and jury decide it..not one arbitrary decision by non omniscient being
My problem is not with the decision AS MUCH as the means by which is was implemented.
Makkonnen said:
So skip the whole point that was being made about actually serving the members of the nation as a whole rather than one small elite group and argue about socialism? What nation on this planet does not invoke some form of socialism? The way you keep avoiding the plight of those meek ones in Venezuela to argue misconstrued elitist realities is showing me that you care more about markets and industry than human suffering. I hope I'm wrong about that. I know that you are a generous cat and how you feel about hardwork etc but I think we differ greatly on how to remedy the ails of the oppressed.
This is where you wrong. Although I care more about freedom than peoples feelings because that is not the role of the government...but
The IRONY MAKK is that your view of Socialism as the savior is fallacious. If you really cared about the people and their plight.. why invoke a system that does not raise poverty levels, provide a sound economy, or real economic opportunities etc. Dispute the claims I made me in my socialism vs capitalism post in this very thread.
There is a difference between a mixed economy and a Socialist country Makk.
The issue really is this Makk:
SOCIALISM does not create an environment that empowers anyone. It does not consistently raise the GDP, it does not create entrepreneurs,etc.
So why would I support a system that gives the underclass less of a chance to rise. All socialism, communism, fascism, etc just transfers the wealth of the nation into government hands.
Makkonnen said:
I state what CHavez is trying to do to thwart those few who have unfairly asserted authority over their nation for too long and you argue predictions and the case of the few. If you mentioned even in passing how the status quo would be better for the people or something else would be better I could possibly understand where you are coming from more but so far you are just hurling fiction and half explained events around like nothing else is taking place. Why does Chavez do what he does? Why does he feel the need to do them? It puts his case in a very different light than a half-jew with a tiny moustache blowing up his own congressional building and blaming it on a homeless jew.
What fiction have I put forth. Makk you know I dont type bullshit. You know this. That confuse me with some of these other posters.
Explain to me with Chavez feels feels the need to nationalize industries then since you understand his intent. Why not set up a means for private ownership with his own citizens.
Why must it be in government hands..under HIS control.
Makkonnen said:
How do you feel about a man who steals your property and the person who knowingly buys what was stolen from you?A man steals your mercedes and sells it to another man at a discount and the buyer knows about the theft in detail and saw it occur. The buyer takes your car and puts rims on it, a great stereo and tints the windows etc. Do you feel like you have any less claim to YOUR car? Does the buyer of your car have any rights to your vehicle because of his modifications?
Makk, Do you want to have the IMF and WORLD BANK argument. Because that is what you are implying here. Ironically, I think we would be on the same side here.
However, you fail to realize that Chavez is going nothing to remedy these problems. He is just transferring power to himself by nationalizing and eliminating private enterprise.
Again, if you could point to ONE case study where this method was successful, maybe I could be understanding.
HOWEVER, you are supporting methods that have 100 percent failure rates.
Makkonnen said:
This is all about money and assets. This is totally a Venezuelan-American(Both South and USA) war of economics and control of resources.The irony of you referring to broken Brazilian energy contracts and investment then one sentence later saying this isn't about money or assets baffles me.
Did you read my long ass post about Capitalism vs Socialism. Makk, you are a smart brotha..there is no way in fucking hell you read my post to the last poster and extracted this being about money. (
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=1895707&postcount=170)
Also any reference to Brasil was made because of this guy. I never directed Brasil at you. My argument against any form of socialism starts there. So dispute that post line by line. But seriously.. that is an argument you just cant win. I guarantee your Makk.
This is about individual rights, free enterprise, etc the basis of capitalism. Money is nothing but one of the end results. I dont think about money in these situations as much as the power given to governments to infringe on the rights of its citizens and or infringe upon enterprise in an illegal and unjust manner.
Makkonnen said:
Secondly, many european nations do quite well with various forms of socialism in place.
Please explain to me how what has been a failure over centuries for the masses is going to change without changing.
There is a difference between a mixed economy and one that is purely statist
Though the easiest way to do this is for you to go a list of the worlds economic powers...and evaluate the list and the political economy of those nations. The degree of socialistic principles reflects the ranking on those lists.
The failure of socialism in comparison to capitalism is a closed cased. It is not even arguable. Just look at the evidence is has produced in hard form.
Makkonnen said:
Marxist Leninist Police squads execute homeless children in the streets of Brazil? Word? I'd love to read that take on it. Got any links or anything on that?
damn man
Makk you know this shit aint gonna work on me. and you know I didnt even make that point. I am surprised you are even stooping to this bullshit with me.
You said that Brasil needed more leftists in its government. I was informing you that they have already had LEFTIST governments. Their impact on the economy was to drive the country into even more economic turmoul. Only recently over the last several years has Brasil begun to stabilize itself. I have been here during those years to see it first hand.That has not occured with a leftist government and I dont even know how you can come to the determination that a leftist government would solve the problems in the first place.
Makkonnen said:
South America? The standards for human rights should be lower?
I dont know how you pulled that one out of your ass like it was my argument. My argument (with a democratic, capitalistic system) is to hold all countries to the same objective philosophy in regards to human rights. My initial long post in this thread in regards to Capitalism vs Socialism with agnostic in terms of nations.
Makkonnen said:
You can't understand how a lil socialism in the form of housing for the poor etc could help children who sleep in the streets and have their brains bashed in by police at night?
First of all. The Bovarian Revolution is not a lil socialism
Secondly. How do you propose how socialism is going to solve the problem when it shows that socialistic countries consistently have a higher percentage of poor.
And before you start saying that is because of U.S. policy and its affect on some particular nation.
Do a study of countries or areas on equal starting ground. East and West Berlin and North and South Korea...one choosing the socialistic path and the other choosing the capitalistic path. That should be the nail in the coffin for any of the statist arguments.
Makkonnen said:
Why is it that free market capitalists jump to the total socialism/communism conclusion when anyone mentions socialism or "leftist"???
I cant speak for all free market capitalist. But for me, the evidence is what draws my conclusions.
Speaking for someone who has made a nice life for himself without having the foundation starting... I empathize with the plight of the people...however my stories and stories better in mind only seem to sprout out of capitalistic societies. There is never a mass exodus of people out of poverty in a socialistic society. The rise of a middle class is not even possible in a socialistic society. In only since the U.S. has invoked socialistic principles starting after the implementation of central banking, the new deal, etc. has the attack on the middle class even been possible... income taxes were not even in place in the U.S. until after central banking systems came into place..and only by overtaxing the populace can you support socialism in the first place.
Makkonnen said:
What type of government and economy does Brazil have now?
What are the national poverty rates?
Mixed economy. Officially Brasil is a Federal Representative Democratic Republic. Brazils GDP greatly outweights any other latin american country and has the 9th largest economy in the world. The poverty rate is 16 percent.. with 35 percent drop over the last several years with the more democratic government. There is no irony that Brasil is the most democratic in latin america and also has the most sound economy.
However, this post was about the Bolivarian Revolution. My argument in an earlier post was about Capitalism vs Socialism. SO I dont see how Brasil matters in that case even though it would only go to support my side of the argument.
Makkonnen said:
Naw Ayn got under your skin
My love of capitalism and free market economy led me to reading her work..it was not the other way around. I was reading Hayek before I knew who Rand was.
But my travels.. and actually seeing capitalistic..or phrased better.. mixed economies with strong capitalistic principles... and then seeing the plight of the people first hand in third world countries dominated by a form of statism has made me gain an even greater appreciation for capitalism and the opportunities it provides
I figured I would take a jab from you for that though
Makkonnen said:
That does not mean you are not near or within the sphere of US influence. Not saying that you are cuz I dont see you that way. I see you as a compassionate capitalist
Makk. The point of even bringing up being out of the country in this thread was because that one poster thought I was just watching Fox news. i have spent the last 9 years traveling extensively and spending a lot of that time living overseas. I speak a few different languages so I am not limited to reading or watching English language U.S. based material. Even I was, I have a pretty diverse reading habit so I always take in different viewpoints anyway.. but I think I have a different view because regardless of what part of the world we talk about (outside of africa) there is a good chance that I have spent a lot of time there.
I am a compassionate capitalist.. guilty as charged.
Makkonnen said:
Man why water the shit down? Cmon I know you know some figures or percentages regarding people of color in government where you live. Stop holdin out.Is everything "left" commie pinko level to you?
Please refresh my memory cuz I dont remember saying that about Brazil. Just asked a side question since you live there and I dont read portugese.
Actually I dont have anything off hand. I can guarantee that white male is the dominant faction...same as it is the U.S. though.
I dont associate left with commie. Socialist always come to mind first..although they are closely related. But Chavez very clearly says his is leading a socialist revolution. He doesnt say leftist.
Makkonnen said:
The poor in America are white black etc and there is segregation although it doesnt need rule of law anymore.
Are the ruling elite all white portugese? I asked already and you said except a few. I have read shit about the unspoken racism in Brazil- seen shit about the outward racism too.
Let me be more definitive. It is very difficult for that type of racism to exist because race is a very indefinitive thing in this country. I have made a post about this on the main board. Honestly, just traveling all around this country..in all the cities.with my rich friends and with my poor friends. Regardless of what the census may say.... a large majority of this population can not easily define themselves based on race. Their has been too much mixing. You dont have segregated school, neighborhoods, sentiment, etc like you have in the U.S.
Seriously Makk, the shit just does not exist.
Also, Brasilians for the most part tend to embrace their African heritage.. its inescapable. Carnaval, Samba, Caporeira, feijoida, etc... It all has its origin in african tradition..and unlike the most countries..especially other latin american countries..it is celebrated and not shunned.
Now, does racism exist on some capacity. As long as you have people in the world it will exist. I have experienced here myself in terms of getting a taxi in Rio at night.. because sometimes I would put on the flip flops...short.. my Flamengo jersey and they would think i was some kid from the Favella and act like they didnt want to stop. But the taxi drivers would be both black and white passing me by...because Rio specifically is violent as hell because of the drug trafficking trade.
TO get back to the point, there is not the deep rooted institutionalized racism in Brasil that exists in the U.S.
Actually, some of the shit I tell my friends about the U.S...they just shake their head.
What you have is poverty that crosses all colors in this country.
Makkonnen said:
Man I looked at your response and was like
fuck I aint gonna answer all that shit
Man..why the fuck you ask me all this shit then..my girl complaining about starting the movie and Im responding to all this shit. I should have used the Colin Powell photo on your ass.
I aint over here wearing a beret chain smokin with Che on the wall bruh dont get me wrong.
[/QUOTE]
I know Makk. We are just having a healthy argument. We dont disagree on all things....
for instance.
I think the two most evil, vile institutions to have ever existed are the World Bank and the IMF...seriously...if you think my hatred for socialism runs deep.. you have no idea what i feel about organizations like those and specifically the Federal Reserve System in the U.S.. the beast from Jeckyll Isle.
The irony is that I cringe when they Leftist Leaders do all the preaching: For the people: because the people over the long term dont see any real benefit.
