Who Thinks the Stimulus Will Work?

Lamarr

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Registered
c'mon, lets get some names together so we can bump this thread 6 months from now.

I'll go first. The stimulus is really a depressant! You're just delaying the inevitable. Seriously, has any of the other bailouts / stimulus checks / interest rate cuts worked over the past 2 yrs? :smh:
 
You must mean work in a rush limbaugh kind of way. Because in democrat circles, "will work" means something entirely different than what wingnuts want you to believe the definition of will work means. If the democrats allow republicans to cripple the bill, it will have less of an impact than it otherwise would.

Will this bill put people back to work? It most certainly will. That infusion of money will do for states the same thing the bill signed under Bill Clinton cutting capital gains taxes for home owners to 500,000.00 for couples.

That money hit the streets and caused the eventual surplus in federal dollars. That is just before republicans spent it like it belonged to them. Not to mention dumping billions into a war that never should have happened.


-VG
 
I hope you're joking. :confused:


source: The New York Times

Paul Krugman
February 7, 2009, 5:36 pm

What the centrists have wrought

I’m still working on the numbers, but I’ve gotten a fair number of requests for comment on the Senate version of the stimulus.

The short answer: to appease the centrists, a plan that was already too small and too focused on ineffective tax cuts has been made significantly smaller, and even more focused on tax cuts.

According to the CBO’s estimates, we’re facing an output shortfall of almost 14% of GDP over the next two years, or around $2 trillion. Others, such as Goldman Sachs, are even more pessimistic. So the original $800 billion plan was too small, especially because a substantial share consisted of tax cuts that probably would have added little to demand. The plan should have been at least 50% larger.

Now the centrists have shaved off $86 billion in spending — much of it among the most effective and most needed parts of the plan. In particular, aid to state governments, which are in desperate straits, is both fast — because it prevents spending cuts rather than having to start up new projects — and effective, because it would in fact be spent; plus state and local governments are cutting back on essentials, so the social value of this spending would be high. But in the name of mighty centrism, $40 billion of that aid has been cut out.

My first cut says that the changes to the Senate bill will ensure that we have at least 600,000 fewer Americans employed over the next two years.

The real question now is whether Obama will be able to come back for more once it’s clear that the plan is way inadequate. My guess is no. This is really, really bad.
 
source: The New York Times

Paul Krugman
February 7, 2009, 5:36 pm

What the centrists have wrought

These so-called educated, informed, and expert opinions were spread about the soundess of the economy, the strength of the market, and the resilience of American free trade...

just before Wall Street collapsed. :rolleyes:

Now, these same people think they can fix something they never saw coming in the first place. :smh:

These schemes have NEVER worked.

Not in the Civil War.
Not in the Great Depression.
Not in Argentina, Russia, Mexico, ...
Not in the New World Order.

They do not work. :(
 
These so-called educated, informed, and expert opinions were spread about the soundess of the economy, the strength of the market, and the resilience of American free trade...

just before Wall Street collapsed. :rolleyes:

Now, these same people think they can fix something they never saw coming in the first place. :smh:

These schemes have NEVER worked.

Not in the Civil War.
Not in the Great Depression.
Not in Argentina, Russia, Mexico, ...
Not in the New World Order.

They do not work. :(

I don't understand your post, but Krugman was spot on from the start when GW and the GOP instituted the GW tax cuts. Everything he predicted has come true, unfortunately 10 fold. That's why he won the Nobel Prize for economics last year.
 
I don't think so, but its looking to be quite a hefty price tag. BTW, you paid for it!

U.S. Taxpayers Risk $9.7 Trillion on Bailout Programs (Update1)


By Mark Pittman and Bob Ivry

Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- The stimulus package the U.S. Congress is completing would raise the government’s commitment to solving the financial crisis to $9.7 trillion, enough to pay off more than 90 percent of the nation’s home mortgages.

The Federal Reserve, Treasury Department and Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation have lent or spent almost $3 trillion over the past two years and pledged up to $5.7 trillion more. The Senate is to vote this week on an economic-stimulus measure of at least $780 billion. It would need to be reconciled with an $819 billion plan the House approved last month.

Only the stimulus bill to be approved this week, the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program passed four months ago and $168 billion in tax cuts and rebates enacted in 2008 have been voted on by lawmakers. The remaining $8 trillion is in lending programs and guarantees, almost all under the Fed and FDIC. Recipients’ names have not been disclosed.

“We’ve seen money go out the back door of this government unlike any time in the history of our country,” Senator Byron Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat, said on the Senate floor Feb. 3. “Nobody knows what went out of the Federal Reserve Board, to whom and for what purpose. How much from the FDIC? How much from TARP? When? Why?”

Financial Rescue

The pledges, amounting to almost two-thirds of the value of everything produced in the U.S. last year, are intended to rescue the financial system after the credit markets seized up about 18 months ago. The promises are composed of about $1 trillion in stimulus packages, around $3 trillion in lending and spending and $5.7 trillion in agreements to provide aid. The total already tapped has decreased about 1 percent since November, mostly because foreign central banks are using fewer dollars in currency-exchange agreements called swaps.

Federal Reserve lending to banks peaked at a record $2.3 trillion in December, dropping to $1.83 trillion by last week. The Fed balance sheet is still more than double the $880 billion it was in the week before Sept. 17 when it agreed to accept lower-quality collateral.

The worst financial crisis in two generations has erased $14.5 trillion, or 33 percent, of the value of the world’s companies since Sept. 15; brought down Bear Stearns Cos. and Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.; and led to the takeover of Merrill Lynch & Co. by Bank of America Corp.

The $9.7 trillion in pledges would be enough to send a $1,430 check to every man, woman and child alive in the world. It’s 13 times what the U.S. has spent so far on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Congressional Budget Office data, and is almost enough to pay off every home mortgage loan in the U.S., calculated at $10.5 trillion by the Federal Reserve.

‘All the Stops’

“The Fed, Treasury and FDIC are pulling out all the stops to stop any widespread systemic damage to the economy,” said Dana Johnson, chief economist for Comerica Inc. in Dallas and a former senior economist at the central bank. “The federal government is on the hook for an awful lot of money but I think it’s needed to help the financial system recover.”

Bloomberg News tabulated data from the Fed, Treasury and FDIC and interviewed regulators, economists and academic researchers to gauge the full extent of the government’s rescue effort.

Commitments may expand again soon. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner postponed until tomorrow an announcement that may invite private investment as a way to clear toxic debt from bank balance sheets. Measures that have been settled include a new round of injections of taxpayer funds into banks, targeted at those identified by regulators as most in need of additional capital, people briefed on the matter said.

Program Delay

The government is already backing $301 billion of Citigroup Inc. securities and another $118 billion from Bank of America. The government hasn’t yet paid out on any of the guarantees.

The Fed said Friday that it is delaying the start a $200 billion program called the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility, or TALF, to revive the market for securities based on consumer loans such as credit-card, auto and student borrowings.

Most of the spending programs are run out of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, where Geithner served as president. He was sworn in as Treasury secretary on Jan. 26.

When Congress approved the TARP on Oct. 3, Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and then Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson acknowledged the need for transparency and oversight. The Federal Reserve so far is refusing to disclose loan recipients or reveal the collateral they are taking in return. Collateral is an asset pledged by a borrower in the event a loan payment isn’t made.

Fed Sued

Bloomberg requested details of Fed lending under the Freedom of Information Act and filed a federal lawsuit against the central bank Nov. 7 seeking to force disclosure of borrower banks and their collateral. Arguments in the suit may be heard as soon as this month, according to the court docket. Bloomberg asked the Treasury in an FOIA request Jan. 28 for a detailed list of the securities it planned to guarantee for Citigroup and Bank of America. Bloomberg hasn’t received a response to the request.

The Bloomberg lawsuit is Bloomberg LP v. Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, 08-CV-9595, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan).

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGq2B3XeGKok&refer=home
 
I don't understand your post, but Krugman was spot on from the start when GW and the GOP instituted the GW tax cuts. Everything he predicted has come true, unfortunately 10 fold. That's why he won the Nobel Prize for economics last year.

My point is these guys are lying to everyone because their livelihoods are in jeopardy. The charade is about to be exposed.

Besides...

if you are impressed with the Nobel Prize (Al Gore winning it should tell you something), read the story about Long-Term Capital Management (LTCM).

They had two Nobel Prize winners in Economics working for them (plus a buttload of other Ivy League graduates).

Read how well that worked.
 
My point is these guys are lying to everyone because their livelihoods are in jeopardy. The charade is about to be exposed.

Besides...

if you are impressed with the Nobel Prize (Al Gore winning it should tell you something), read the story about Long-Term Capital Management (LTCM).

They had two Nobel Prize winners in Economics working for them (plus a buttload of other Ivy League graduates).

Read how well that worked.

if you are impressed with the Nobel Prize (Al Gore winning it should tell you something),

Oh, boy! Another global warming denier.:smh:

This is why conservatism is falling out of favor. Denying facts and science.
 
c'mon, lets get some names together so we can bump this thread 6 months from now.

I dunno, well..check that, put me down with Peter Schiff. He's been the man so far he predicted this recession due to the debt and mortage,credit crisis.

Schiff says this stimulus wont work and will put us further in debt, I'm with him. I say no, wont work.

Although...someone is going to make money with all the billions coming down the pipe from this bill. Has anyone on BGOL figured out a way to get some of this money? c'mon, let's work together on this.
 
Real talk...

Our Stimulus packages have always worked... Proof: The US has not collapsed yet like so many other countries. Even if it's just for the belief of other countries that we are healed that makes them want to give us more money.

The problem is that we DO keep healing with these Stimulus packages, and that makes the greedy believe they can just keep taking from us.

This Stimulus will work again cause if the US falls everyone will fall. We are the consumers of the planet. Other countries have a vested interest in keeping us buying as well as the greedy corporations. They can't survive if we get skinny.
 
source: New York Times

The Destructive Center

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: February 8, 2009

What do you call someone who eliminates hundreds of thousands of American jobs, deprives millions of adequate health care and nutrition, undermines schools, but offers a $15,000 bonus to affluent people who flip their houses?

A proud centrist. For that is what the senators who ended up calling the tune on the stimulus bill just accomplished.

Even if the original Obama plan — around $800 billion in stimulus, with a substantial fraction of that total given over to ineffective tax cuts — had been enacted, it wouldn’t have been enough to fill the looming hole in the U.S. economy, which the Congressional Budget Office estimates will amount to $2.9 trillion over the next three years.

Yet the centrists did their best to make the plan weaker and worse.

One of the best features of the original plan was aid to cash-strapped state governments, which would have provided a quick boost to the economy while preserving essential services. But the centrists insisted on a $40 billion cut in that spending.

The original plan also included badly needed spending on school construction; $16 billion of that spending was cut. It included aid to the unemployed, especially help in maintaining health care — cut. Food stamps — cut. All in all, more than $80 billion was cut from the plan, with the great bulk of those cuts falling on precisely the measures that would do the most to reduce the depth and pain of this slump.

On the other hand, the centrists were apparently just fine with one of the worst provisions in the Senate bill, a tax credit for home buyers. Dean Baker of the Center for Economic Policy Research calls this the “flip your house to your brother” provision: it will cost a lot of money while doing nothing to help the economy.

All in all, the centrists’ insistence on comforting the comfortable while afflicting the afflicted will, if reflected in the final bill, lead to substantially lower employment and substantially more suffering.

But how did this happen? I blame President Obama’s belief that he can transcend the partisan divide — a belief that warped his economic strategy.

After all, many people expected Mr. Obama to come out with a really strong stimulus plan, reflecting both the economy’s dire straits and his own electoral mandate.

Instead, however, he offered a plan that was clearly both too small and too heavily reliant on tax cuts. Why? Because he wanted the plan to have broad bipartisan support, and believed that it would. Not long ago administration strategists were talking about getting 80 or more votes in the Senate.

Mr. Obama’s postpartisan yearnings may also explain why he didn’t do something crucially important: speak forcefully about how government spending can help support the economy. Instead, he let conservatives define the debate, waiting until late last week before finally saying what needed to be said — that increasing spending is the whole point of the plan.

And Mr. Obama got nothing in return for his bipartisan outreach. Not one Republican voted for the House version of the stimulus plan, which was, by the way, better focused than the original administration proposal.

In the Senate, Republicans inveighed against “pork” — although the wasteful spending they claimed to have identified (much of it was fully justified) was a trivial share of the bill’s total. And they decried the bill’s cost — even as 36 out of 41 Republican senators voted to replace the Obama plan with $3 trillion, that’s right, $3 trillion in tax cuts over 10 years.

So Mr. Obama was reduced to bargaining for the votes of those centrists. And the centrists, predictably, extracted a pound of flesh — not, as far as anyone can tell, based on any coherent economic argument, but simply to demonstrate their centrist mojo. They probably would have demanded that $100 billion or so be cut from anything Mr. Obama proposed; by coming in with such a low initial bid, the president guaranteed that the final deal would be much too small.

Such are the perils of negotiating with yourself.

Now, House and Senate negotiators have to reconcile their versions of the stimulus, and it’s possible that the final bill will undo the centrists’ worst. And Mr. Obama may be able to come back for a second round. But this was his best chance to get decisive action, and it fell short.

So has Mr. Obama learned from this experience? Early indications aren’t good.

For rather than acknowledge the failure of his political strategy and the damage to his economic strategy, the president tried to put a postpartisan happy face on the whole thing. “Democrats and Republicans came together in the Senate and responded appropriately to the urgency this moment demands,” he declared on Saturday, and “the scale and scope of this plan is right.”

No, they didn’t, and no, it isn’t.
 
Oh, boy! Another global warming denier.:smh:

This is why conservatism is falling out of favor. Denying facts and science.

As far as the Nobel Prize, how can they award someone when it's unclear if there is any merit?

Al Gore may be right or wrong, but they act like they already know. This tells me it's a political award more than anything.

The Rhodes scholarships, Nobel, and Pulitzer are chosen to advance white supremacy.

They are anachronisms.
 
As far as the Nobel Prize, how can they award someone when it's unclear if there is any merit?

Al Gore may be right or wrong, but they act like they already know. This tells me it's a political award more than anything.

The Rhodes scholarships, Nobel, and Pulitzer are chosen to advance white supremacy.

They are anachronisms.

Gore got it for bringing global warming international attention. Dr. King, Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela received the Nobel Prize, were the advancing white supremacy?
 
It won't work. The most it will do is prolong whatever is left of the bubble. Period. I doubt that the whole plan willeven be instituted. So much has gone out the door that I have a feeling we are actually closer to the bottom than what many of the experts think.
 
Gore got it for bringing global warming international attention. Dr. King, Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela received the Nobel Prize, were the advancing white supremacy?

Don't get me started on that one.

Short answer, yes.

Either...

they didn't realize it, or...

they did but couldn't stop it, or...

they did and didn't care.
 
OJ is doing life for taking back his own stuff. Marion Jones did six months for lying about steriods. So how can this govt give a stimulus bill to people responsible for wrecking a global economy, collapsing govts? There is no way it could happen, the culprits would get the Bernie Madoff treatment. This recession and the stimulus bill are a joke, the people coordinating this ripoff are just seeing how much they can steal before Americans start rioting, basically the public is being conditioned to expect less.
 
Don't get me started on that one.

Short answer, yes.

Either...

they didn't realize it, or...

they did but couldn't stop it, or...

they did and didn't care.

Damn, sounds like you spent 27 years in an South African prison or had his life threatened by racists everyday.
 
Question For The Day....Where Will the Stimulus Money Come From?

I think the stimulus package is approx. $820bn. For all that feel the govt must do something, Where will that money come from? Serious answers only
 
Re: Question For The Day....Where Will the Stimulus Money Come From?

I think the stimulus package is approx. $820bn. For all that feel the govt must do something, Where will that money come from? Serious answers only

The same place where all the tax cuts come from, the same place where all of the tax breaks come from, the same place where the debt used to finance the Iraqi, Afghanistan and war on terrorism is coming from. Printing more money and from borrowing from Japan, China, the Middle Eastern oil countries and European economies. Why is it that the anti jobs bill opponents cry that we don't have any money, when Reagan was the first president to build up a trillion dollar deficit, HW Bush a 3 trillion dollar deficit and GW Bush a 9 trillion dollar deficit. Never in the history of the world has country waged war without raising taxes or increased revenue to subside it. Your argument is hollow.

Refer to a most ignored previous post:
Cheney: "Reagan proved deficits don't matter…"
 
Re: Question For The Day....Where Will the Stimulus Money Come From?

The same place where all the tax cuts come from, the same place where all of the tax breaks come from, the same place where the debt used to finance the Iraqi, Afghanistan and war on terrorism is coming from. Printing more money and from borrowing from Japan, China, the Middle Eastern oil countries and European economies.

Wait a sec... If I'm making a dollar and paid 20 cents in taxes last year, but a new law cutting my taxes is passed and I have to pay only 15 cents in taxes this year, that money that I do not have to pay in taxes comes from printing money and borrowing? How is it that retaining more of the money I earn sourced from printing money and borrowing? I mean, I earn a dollar, have all 100 cents in hand, then pay out 5 cents less than I used to and that five cents came from printing money and borrowing?

Now, I agree that the money for this stimulus package will come from printing money and borrowing, but don't agree that a reduction in taxes paid is the same thing.
 
Re: Question For The Day....Where Will the Stimulus Money Come From?

Shouldn't we be asking what gives Wall Street Types the right to make 30 million a year while hard working people are losing thier jobs and homes. It's time to stop debating these inequities and start forming some resistance, If we don't then building bridges will become what the medical professional is today. They are dumbing the public down.
 
<font size="5"><center>
Economists predict stimulus effects</font size>
</center>



P O L I T I C O
By LISA LERER &
VICTORIA MCGRANE
February 13, 2009


As the stimulus debate closed, Capitol Hill was consumed by debate over whether the stimulus will, or won’t, succeed.

Politico took five of the largest components of the bill and asked economists of all political stripes for their best predictions.

To be sure, conservatives premised their remarks by saying they would have gone in a completely different direction by relying more on tax cuts. Liberals, by and large, would have rewritten the legislation, too, by adding more spending.

But at the end of the day, the economists concluded that anything pumping money into the economy will help in the near term.

“Most economists say that [the stimulus] is so big it will have to do some good. It will generate some GDP growth,” said U.S. Chamber of Commerce chief economist Martin Regalia.

Here’s a guide to the major parts of the two-year stimulus package and what they are intended to do:


<font size="4">Infrastructure Spending </font size>

The legislation allocates roughly $150 billion to improve America’s infrastructure, with nearly a third of that going to transportation related projects.

Opinion on its effectiveness is split, with some arguing it is among the strongest provisions and others saying the money will take too long to hit the economy.

This is also the section of the legislation where Republicans have identified a relatively small group of specific projects that carry the scent of pork.

  • “It’s okay … [but] no matter how many shovels that are poised to go into the ground, it still takes time” for the impact to be felt, said Bill Hampel, the Credit Union National Association’s economist.

    “To me the biggest requirement of the stimulus package is to break the current near-term downward cycle” of rising job loss, falling consumer confidence and plunging spending, he said.

Others believe Congress structured the infrastructure spending to have a positive effect, with a descent amount of the money hitting the economy in the second half of the year.

And most concur that the longer term economic effects are undeniable.

  • The economy is facing what’s likely to be a long and deep downturn, making the longer term effects of building a critical piece of the package, said Jim Horney, director of federal fiscal policy at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

    “It’s like a time release cold capsule,” Horney said. “Recovery is likely to be slower in this instance, so you do want some of the spending spread out over a longer period of time.”

  • Eric Rasmussen, a free market economist at Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business warns that the money could fund economically inefficient projects.

    “They tend to be projects which wouldn’t get through in normal times because they wouldn’t pass the cost benefit analysis,” he said. “It’s much more prey to special interests then something like a tax cut.”

<font size="4">Tax Cuts for Working Families </font size>

President Barack Obama’s signature tax cut weighs in at a total cost of $116 billion over the next ten years – and it’s expected to deliver the quickest boost to the economy.

The proposal provides a $400 refundable credit for workers making less than $75,000 and an $800 credit for dual-earning couples with incomes of less than $150,000. A partial credit is paid for those making slightly more.

  • The targeted nature of the proposal is what makes it effective, Horney said.

    “You’re getting money to the people who are the most likely to spend it, because they’re struggling day to day to make ends meet,” he said.

  • “This money is going, in many cases, to people who are very close to subsistence,” agreed the Chamber’s Regalia. “If you give them more money, I don’t think that’s going to be saved.”

It’s also a payroll tax credit, meaning that workers will see a roughly $15 increase in their paycheck twice a month, rather than receive a lump sum rebate.

  • That structure will make the tax cut more effective than the stimulus checks sent out in 2008, but the economic impact will still be limited, said Dean Baker co-director of the left-leaning Center for Economic and Policy Research.

    If 60 percent of the money is spent – as opposed to saved, as happened with the 2008 rebate checks – that would add about $40 billion or so to the economy, a sizeable infusion in fast faltering retail markets.

    But even that sum is actually only three-tenths of 1 percent of the country’s Gross Domestic Product, Baker noted, hardly enough to turn the economy around on its own.


<font size="4">Food Stamps/Unemployment/Health care </font size>

The bill includes several provisions totaling about $86 billion to help struggling workers survive the downturn.

The government will subsidize a large portion of COBRA premiums, the health care bridge for workers who lose their jobs, for up to nine months, at a cost of nearly $25 billion for workers making less than $125,000 or working couples making less than $250,000.

The bill would extend unemployment benefits from 20 to 33 weeks at a cost of $27 billion, increase those benefits at a cost of $8.8 billion, and exempt the first $2,400 of benefits from federal income taxes, which costs $4.7 billion.

Finally, the bill would increase food stamp payments by 13.6 percent at a cost of $19.9 billion.

  • ”Social safety net or economic pain mitigation is perfectly appropriate,” says the conservative Heritage Foundation’s senior fellow J.D. Foster, “but they don’t have anything to do with stimulus.”

  • Other economists disagree, saying the money will go into the pockets of those that need it badly because they’ve lost a job or otherwise cannot make ends meet. Their stretched budgets would effectively force them to spend their government assistance – and boost the economy.


<font size="4">Alternative Minimum Tax </font size>

To gain some bipartisan support for the package in the Senate, Democrats agreed to include a nearly $70 billion patch of the alternative minimum tax patch. But this is more politics than stimulus.

Congress has passed a bill preventing middle and upper-income tax payers from getting slammed by the additional tax for the past several years. As a result, few taxpayers anticipate getting hit by the tax — rendering the provision a zero on the stimulative scale, according to economists across the ideological spectrum.

  • “The fact is the AMT patch is something everyone had to expect would happen, and so it had to be more or less factored into people’s plans already,” said Kevin Hassett, director of economic policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think-tank, and an adviser for Republican John McCain’s, presidential bid.

  • Horney notes that by including the $70 billion patch and then limiting the size of the bill, Congress wasted a significant portion of their bill. “The problem is, in putting it in, then you have to limit or get rid of other things,” he said.


<font size="3">State Aid </font size>

The compromise bill includes a $53.6 billion “state stabilization fund” aimed at helping struggling states avoid layoffs and continue services.

The bulk of the money – more than $45 billion – goes to local school districts and bonus grants to states that meet education performance markers. The remainder is for other high priority needs such as police, fire and public safety. On top of that, states also got an $87 billion boost to help pay rising Medicaid rolls.

Many economists praise this spending as the best part of the bill since it can be deployed most quickly to stop layoffs and other spending cuts at the state and local level forced by balanced budget laws.

  • Although the money will fill only half of the total budget gap in the states, the money is critical, Horney said.

    Seeing states lay-off workers and cut benefits “is exactly counter to what you need to try and get the economy going again,” he said.

  • “It should have been bigger,” said Hampel. “You get some of the biggest bang for the buck” by preventing layoffs, since a dollar spent to keep someone in a job is just as effective as one spent to hire a worker – and it takes a lot less time than other forms of spending.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18845.html
 
Damn, sounds like you spent 27 years in an South African prison or had his life threatened by racists everyday.

Don't you see, that's just it.

It's like Stockholm syndrome.

When you are constantly inundated with the messages, beliefs, and attitudes of your captors, some eventually succumb.

They become brainwahsed.

It happens to slaves.
It happens to kidnap victims.
It happens to prisoners.

After 27 years, prisoners sometimes become "institutionalized" and fear any changes to their known day-to-day life.

By the time Mandela was released, he was an old man, having been conditioned throughout his "prime years" that whites are superior and blacks are inferior.

That can't help but take a toll on the mind, body, and spirit.

You couple that with another South African, Desmond Tutu, and a Southern Baptist preacher, and you have a perfect mix of agents for white imperialism.

It's sort of the way I feel about Obama (indoctrinated/brainwahsed in his youth to the superiority of the white system).

So, I have little respect for "white" awards.
 
<CENTER>
Economists predict stimulus effects
</CENTER>



P O L I T I C O
By LISA LERER &
VICTORIA MCGRANE
February 13, 2009


As the stimulus debate closed, Capitol Hill was consumed by debate over whether the stimulus will, or won’t, succeed.

Politico took five of the largest components of the bill and asked economists of all political stripes for their best predictions.

To be sure, conservatives premised their remarks by saying they would have gone in a completely different direction by relying more on tax cuts. Liberals, by and large, would have rewritten the legislation, too, by adding more spending.

But at the end of the day, the economists concluded that anything pumping money into the economy will help in the near term.

“Most economists say that [the stimulus] is so big it will have to do some good. It will generate some GDP growth,” said U.S. Chamber of Commerce chief economist Martin Regalia.

Here’s a guide to the major parts of the two-year stimulus package and what they are intended to do:


Infrastructure Spending


The legislation allocates roughly $150 billion to improve America’s infrastructure, with nearly a third of that going to transportation related projects.​


Opinion on its effectiveness is split, with some arguing it is among the strongest provisions and others saying the money will take too long to hit the economy.​


This is also the section of the legislation where Republicans have identified a relatively small group of specific projects that carry the scent of pork.​


  • “It’s okay … [but] no matter how many shovels that are poised to go into the ground, it still takes time” for the impact to be felt, said Bill Hampel, the Credit Union National Association’s economist.
  • “To me the biggest requirement of the stimulus package is to break the current near-term downward cycle” of rising job loss, falling consumer confidence and plunging spending, he said.​

Others believe Congress structured the infrastructure spending to have a positive effect, with a descent amount of the money hitting the economy in the second half of the year.​


And most concur that the longer term economic effects are undeniable.​


  • The economy is facing what’s likely to be a long and deep downturn, making the longer term effects of building a critical piece of the package, said Jim Horney, director of federal fiscal policy at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.
  • “It’s like a time release cold capsule,” Horney said. “Recovery is likely to be slower in this instance, so you do want some of the spending spread out over a longer period of time.”​
  • Eric Rasmussen, a free market economist at Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business warns that the money could fund economically inefficient projects.
  • “They tend to be projects which wouldn’t get through in normal times because they wouldn’t pass the cost benefit analysis,” he said. “It’s much more prey to special interests then something like a tax cut.”​

Tax Cuts for Working Families


President Barack Obama’s signature tax cut weighs in at a total cost of $116 billion over the next ten years – and it’s expected to deliver the quickest boost to the economy.​


The proposal provides a $400 refundable credit for workers making less than $75,000 and an $800 credit for dual-earning couples with incomes of less than $150,000. A partial credit is paid for those making slightly more.​


  • The targeted nature of the proposal is what makes it effective, Horney said.
  • “You’re getting money to the people who are the most likely to spend it, because they’re struggling day to day to make ends meet,” he said.​
  • “This money is going, in many cases, to people who are very close to subsistence,” agreed the Chamber’s Regalia. “If you give them more money, I don’t think that’s going to be saved.”

It’s also a payroll tax credit, meaning that workers will see a roughly $15 increase in their paycheck twice a month, rather than receive a lump sum rebate.​


  • That structure will make the tax cut more effective than the stimulus checks sent out in 2008, but the economic impact will still be limited, said Dean Baker co-director of the left-leaning Center for Economic and Policy Research.
  • If 60 percent of the money is spent – as opposed to saved, as happened with the 2008 rebate checks – that would add about $40 billion or so to the economy, a sizeable infusion in fast faltering retail markets.​
    But even that sum is actually only three-tenths of 1 percent of the country’s Gross Domestic Product, Baker noted, hardly enough to turn the economy around on its own.​


Food Stamps/Unemployment/Health care


The bill includes several provisions totaling about $86 billion to help struggling workers survive the downturn.​


The government will subsidize a large portion of COBRA premiums, the health care bridge for workers who lose their jobs, for up to nine months, at a cost of nearly $25 billion for workers making less than $125,000 or working couples making less than $250,000.​


The bill would extend unemployment benefits from 20 to 33 weeks at a cost of $27 billion, increase those benefits at a cost of $8.8 billion, and exempt the first $2,400 of benefits from federal income taxes, which costs $4.7 billion.​


Finally, the bill would increase food stamp payments by 13.6 percent at a cost of $19.9 billion.​


  • ”Social safety net or economic pain mitigation is perfectly appropriate,” says the conservative Heritage Foundation’s senior fellow J.D. Foster, “but they don’t have anything to do with stimulus.”
  • Other economists disagree, saying the money will go into the pockets of those that need it badly because they’ve lost a job or otherwise cannot make ends meet. Their stretched budgets would effectively force them to spend their government assistance – and boost the economy.


Alternative Minimum Tax


To gain some bipartisan support for the package in the Senate, Democrats agreed to include a nearly $70 billion patch of the alternative minimum tax patch. But this is more politics than stimulus.​


Congress has passed a bill preventing middle and upper-income tax payers from getting slammed by the additional tax for the past several years. As a result, few taxpayers anticipate getting hit by the tax — rendering the provision a zero on the stimulative scale, according to economists across the ideological spectrum.​


  • “The fact is the AMT patch is something everyone had to expect would happen, and so it had to be more or less factored into people’s plans already,” said Kevin Hassett, director of economic policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think-tank, and an adviser for Republican John McCain’s, presidential bid.
  • Horney notes that by including the $70 billion patch and then limiting the size of the bill, Congress wasted a significant portion of their bill. “The problem is, in putting it in, then you have to limit or get rid of other things,” he said.


State Aid


The compromise bill includes a $53.6 billion “state stabilization fund” aimed at helping struggling states avoid layoffs and continue services.​


The bulk of the money – more than $45 billion – goes to local school districts and bonus grants to states that meet education performance markers. The remainder is for other high priority needs such as police, fire and public safety. On top of that, states also got an $87 billion boost to help pay rising Medicaid rolls.​


Many economists praise this spending as the best part of the bill since it can be deployed most quickly to stop layoffs and other spending cuts at the state and local level forced by balanced budget laws.​


  • Although the money will fill only half of the total budget gap in the states, the money is critical, Horney said.
  • Seeing states lay-off workers and cut benefits “is exactly counter to what you need to try and get the economy going again,” he said.​
  • “It should have been bigger,” said Hampel. “You get some of the biggest bang for the buck” by preventing layoffs, since a dollar spent to keep someone in a job is just as effective as one spent to hire a worker – and it takes a lot less time than other forms of spending.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18845.html


What a mess. Trillion dollar deficits to which the nations of the world cannot afford to buy..are you people really that dense? Are you even concerned about your childrens children paying on this BS after your rotted through in your grave?
 
What a mess. Trillion dollar deficits to which the nations of the world cannot afford to buy..are you people really that dense? Are you even concerned about your childrens children paying on this BS after your rotted through in your grave?

Our parents did it to us.

Their parents did it to them.

Now, we'll do it to our children.

And no one wants to stop it (at least the honkeys don't since they're getting the benefits).

If it was directed at you; I'm disappointed.

You missed the point. :(

QueEx

Okay. Wait... what?

You're right. I have no idea what you're talking about. :confused:
 
One big-azz jobless recovery stimulus BUMP!!! from wayback

ben_bernanke.jpg
 
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