Who Thinks the Stimulus Will Work?

Yup.

People still trust this dumb ass.

Fed's Bernanke picked for second term

OAK BLUFFS, Mass. – Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, widely credited with taking aggressive action to avert an economic catastrophe after the financial meltdown last fall, will be nominated by President Barack Obama for a second term, The Associated Press learned Monday night.

Obama plans to make the announcement on Tuesday during a break from his vacation on Martha's Vineyard. A senior administration official discussed the nomination on the condition of anonymity because it was not yet public.

In remarks prepared for the announcement, Obama praised Bernanke for leading the country through the meltdown and, with his expertise on the Great Depression, helping to prevent a crisis rivaling that of the 1930s.
 
Fed's Bernanke picked for second term

OAK BLUFFS, Mass. – Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, widely credited with taking aggressive action to avert an economic catastrophe after the financial meltdown last fall, will be nominated by President Barack Obama for a second term, The Associated Press learned Monday night.

Obama plans to make the announcement on Tuesday during a break from his vacation on Martha's Vineyard. A senior administration official discussed the nomination on the condition of anonymity because it was not yet public.

In remarks prepared for the announcement, Obama praised Bernanke for leading the country through the meltdown and, with his expertise on the Great Depression, helping to prevent a crisis rivaling that of the 1930s.

This is change I cannot believe in. However, he has to be confirmed by the Senate. Will they press him about the TARP monies?
 
source: Huffington Post

Sanders Rips Bernanke Nomination: "He Was Asleep At The Wheel"

The decision by President Barack Obama to nominate Ben Bernanke for a second term as chairman of the Federal Reserve has been greeted with a type of ho-hum response that suggests the move was both uncontroversial and long expected.

But while Bernanke seems likely to retain his post, his Senate confirmation hearings should not lack for dramatics. Not everyone was pleased with his first four-year tenure. And in a statement on Tuesday, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) offered strong disapproval with Obama's choice and a hint of the type of questioning coming Bernanke's way in the weeks to come.

"As a result of the greed, irresponsibility and illegal behavior of Wall Street our country has experienced the worst economic decline since the Great Depression," said Sanders. "Mr. Bernanke was head of the Fed and the nation's chief economist as this crisis, driven by reckless speculation, developed. Tragically, like the rest of the Bush administration, he was asleep at the wheel during this period and did nothing to move our financial system onto safer grounds."

"As the middle class of this country continues to shrink, we need a chairman of the Federal Reserve who is more concerned about expanding the productive economy -- increasing decent-paying jobs for all Americans -- than continuing to fan the flames of Wall Street greed and outrageous compensation packages."
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azXZugoul_S0

Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- The pace of U.S. job losses slowed in August while the unemployment rate reached a 26-year high, signaling the recovery from recession will be slow to develop.

Employers cut payrolls by 216,000, fewer than forecast, after a 276,000 drop in July, Labor Department data showed today in Washington. The jobless rate rose to 9.7 percent; the so- called underemployment rate -- which includes part-time workers who’d prefer a full-time position and people who want work but have given up looking -- reached a record 16.8 percent.

Today’s figures stoke concern that the recovery forecast to take hold in the second half of the year won’t prompt a turnaround in the job market until 2010. With the ranks of long- term unemployed nearing 5 million, workers are at risk of losing skills, making it even tougher for them to eventually find work.

“The economy is no longer detonating, but we are still losing jobs,” David Rosenberg, chief economist at Gluskin Sheff & Associates Inc. in Toronto, said in an interview with Bloomberg Radio. “It’s going to be a very tough environment for the consumer.”
 
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U.S. Economy Gets Lift From Stimulus

by Deborah Solomon

September 2, 2009


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125185379218478087.html

WASHINGTON -- Government efforts to funnel hundreds of billions of dollars into the U.S. economy appear to be helping the U.S. climb out of the worst recession in decades.

But there's little agreement about which programs are having the biggest impact. Some economists argue that efforts such as the Federal Reserve's aggressive buying of Treasury debt and mortgage-backed securities, as well as government efforts to shore up banks, are providing a bigger boost than the administration's $787 billion stimulus package.

The U.S. economy is beginning to show signs of improvement, with many economists asserting the worst is past and data pointing to stronger-than-expected growth. On Tuesday, data showed manufacturing grew in August for the first time in more than a year. "There's a method to the madness. We're getting out of this," said Brian Bethune, chief U.S. financial economist at IHS Global Insight.

Much of the stimulus spending is just beginning to trickle through the economy, with spending expected to peak sometime later this year or in early 2010. The government has funneled about $60 billion of the $288 billion in promised tax cuts to U.S. households, while about $84 billion of the $499 billion in spending has been paid. About $200 billion has been promised to certain projects, such as infrastructure and energy projects.

Economists say the money out the door -- combined with the expectation of additional funds flowing soon -- is fueling growth above where it would have been without any government action.

Many forecasters say stimulus spending is adding two to three percentage points to economic growth in the second and third quarters, when measured at an annual rate. The impact in the second quarter, calculated by analyzing how the extra funds flowing into the economy boost consumption, investment and spending, helped slow the rate of decline and will lay the groundwork for positive growth in the third quarter -- something that seemed almost implausible just a few months ago. Some economists say the 1% contraction in the second quarter would have been far worse, possibly as much as 3.2%, if not for the stimulus.

For the third quarter, economists at Goldman Sachs & Co. predict the U.S. economy will grow by 3.3%. "Without that extra stimulus, we would be somewhere around zero," said Jan Hatzius, chief U.S. economist for Goldman.

Dave Anderson, chief financial officer of Honeywell International Inc., said the stimulus package actually froze business activity at first as firms tried to figure out how they could benefit from the government spending. The $787 billion package "created actually a slowdown in order activity in terms of the flow that we would normally have anticipated," Mr. Anderson said at a conference sponsored by Morgan Stanley. "We anticipate that that's going to actually pick up in the second half of the year. I think it's not unreasonable to see several hundred million dollars of orders."

Opinion, however, remains split about which program has had the biggest impact. "I don't think the stimulus was necessarily as effective as people claimed it to be or claim it will be," said Joseph LaVorgna, chief U.S. economist with Deutsche Bank Securities Inc. He credits the government's "stress tests" of banks, which helped boost confidence on Wall Street and allow banks to raise capital and resume lending.

Economists say other programs are having an impact, including an $8,000 tax credit for first-time home-buyers that has spurred home sales. The cash-for-clunkers program, which provided financial incentives for consumers to trade in older vehicles, did the same for cars.

One big question: Will the boost evaporate once the programs end?

Stuart Hoffman, chief U.S. economist for PNC Financial Services Group, said the stimulus package "caused this bit of a concentrated burst [that] probably will exaggerate the pace of economic growth," since some areas, such as auto sales, could fall back to low levels.

 
^^^^^How can you believe anything in the uber-liberal Wall Street Journal?


:lol::lol::lol:

Even funnier is the post ahead of this one by Lamarr that actually supports the notion that the bleeding has stopped. Pick a side Lamarr.
 
^^^^^How can you believe anything in the uber-liberal Wall Street Journal?


:lol::lol::lol:

Even funnier is the post ahead of this one by Lamarr that actually supports the notion that the bleeding has stopped. Pick a side Lamarr.

^^^^^How can you believe anything in the uber-liberal Wall Street Journal?

Proof why the right is so gullible to Faux Snooze and the like.
 
^^^^^How can you believe anything in the uber-liberal Wall Street Journal?


Even funnier is the post ahead of this one by Lamarr that actually supports the notion that the bleeding has stopped. Pick a side Lamarr.

c'mon Dave! I've stated my position in post #1, I just wanna keep the thread bumped just so no one could say "We never saw this comin".

My real thoughts on the MSM: It's like the kid who shows his report card to his parents and trying to convince them the "F" stand for Fabulous :D
 
Proof why the right is so gullible to Faux Snooze and the like.


I just heard Jon Voight on "Huckabee" say "We know the stimulus has failed." Now if that ain't a credible source, I don't know what is.:D
The Wall Street Journal? Nah. I like to get my info from old ass actors.

Funny how Republicans hate politically active entertainers unless their Republicans. Then they vote for them for high office.
 
I just heard Jon Voight on "Huckabee" say "We know the stimulus has failed." Now if that ain't a credible source, I don't know what is.:D
The Wall Street Journal? Nah. I like to get my info from old ass actors.

Funny how Republicans hate politically active entertainers unless their Republicans. Then they vote for them for high office.

_;)_
 
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Early Reports:
Job Gains Signal Stimulus Impact


By Brad Heath and Matt Kelley, USA TODAY

October 27, 2009


WASHINGTON — States have reported using stimulus money to create or save more than 388,000 jobs so far this year, buttressing the Obama administration's claim that the $787 billion plan has had a significant impact on the economy.

That total, based on a USA TODAY review of reports from 33 states and Puerto Rico, includes teachers, construction workers, and others whose jobs were funded by stimulus money awarded to states. The administration plans Friday to release reports from all 50 states, providing the broadest accounting yet of the stimulus plan's impact.

FORECAST: Jobs may rebound in 2010

Until now, the administration has relied on economic estimates to assess national job creation. The states' reports were meant to actually count the jobs, though that gauge has proved to be imprecise — particularly for jobs saved. "The numbers ... should be taken with a grain of salt," said Ethan Pollack of the Economic Policy Institute.

Still, Frank Lichtenberg of the Columbia Business School says the figures show a significant economic impact. Obama's Council of Economic Advisors estimated that the stimulus had saved or created 600,000 to 1.1 million jobs. Lichtenberg said the states' reports "make that sound like a reasonable estimate."

Kevin Hassett, once an economic adviser to President George W. Bush, said the reports "vastly overstates" job gains. He said the USA would have shed more than the 2.7 million jobs lost since March without the stimulus, "but just how many is impossible to know."

Elizabeth Oxhorn, an administration spokeswoman,said the reports show governors credit the stimulus for "creating jobs across the economy."

Data released last week showed federal contractors created or saved 30,000 jobs with stimulus funds. Friday's report also will provide jobs created by more than 103,000 federal grants and loans.

The states' reports suggest the biggest impact has been at schools. Twenty-three states that have reported school job numbers said more than 156,000 jobs had been created or saved.

Carol Bingham, director of fiscal policy for the California Department of Education, estimated the stimulus saved about 20,000 teaching positions. But she and others warn that precisely counting saved jobs has proved almost impossible. "It was intended to be a count. The way it was done, I think it's going to end up being an estimate," she said.

Indiana officials reported that the stimulus had created or saved about 13,000 school jobs. Asked whether he had any idea how many layoffs the plan had prevented, state Education Department spokesman Cam Savage replied: "I really don't."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-10-27-jobs_N.htm

 
it will work only on temporary terms.but in the long haul not a shot in the dark.and i am not saying this to be negative anti-us or any that nonsensense.i really want to believe that it can work.i really want to believe in our president(BARRACK OBAMA)that he can turn this thing around.i really want to believe in a lot of things.but my gut inside tells me it's not gonna happen.theres just to much high taxes too much hyperinflation health care is getting higher and soon gas prices are gonna peak high again.too many things happening and coming all at you at same time for it to work.:smh:
 
it will work only on temporary terms.but in the long haul not a shot in the dark.and i am not saying this to be negative anti-us or any that nonsensense.i really want to believe that it can work.i really want to believe in our president(BARRACK OBAMA)that he can turn this thing around.i really want to believe in a lot of things.but my gut inside tells me it's not gonna happen.theres just to much high taxes too much hyperinflation health care is getting higher and soon gas prices are gonna peak high again.too many things happening and coming all at you at same time for it to work.:smh:

taxes are as low as ever, inflation is barely moving at all and gas just went up recently (not much compared to how horrible its been), and apparently the health care bill is deficit neutral.

what are your doubts about? I'm a skeptic, too. but depending how how efficiently and accurately( spent in the right fields) the remaining funds are released I think this can work.
 
instead of high taxes i mean cost of food is going high. real high.job work wages are not being raise.inflation just keeps going on and on and on.inflation alone is going make it diffucult to bounce back.alot of people really dont believe that that is really going on right now and it is getting the best of the us economy and making quite difficult for a stimulus to have major impact that the publiuc knows it could have.:smh:
 
Ok, Lets start with a chart:

Jobs+Created.png


Even the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning think-tank which has fervently supported the stimulus, said there were serious problems with the figures.

Bear in mind it is impossible to prove how many jobs were created and it is beyond preposterous to think one can estimate the number of jobs saved.

However, let's take the administration's estimates at face value.

Inquiring minds want the official numbers on which to base the cost per job created. So please consider the administration's own numbers as reported on Track The Money Recovery.Gov as of October 30, 2009.

So the govt numbers say they have created or "saved" 640,329 jobs. And we've spent 207.3 billion dollars.

That comes out to 323,739.83 per job! ! ! ! ! !

This stimulus is working so well, we should have another one within 6 months. I'm sorry but this sh*t is a terrible joke being played on the American people
 
Ok, Lets start with a chart:

Jobs+Created.png


Even the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning think-tank which has fervently supported the stimulus, said there were serious problems with the figures.

Bear in mind it is impossible to prove how many jobs were created and it is beyond preposterous to think one can estimate the number of jobs saved.

However, let's take the administration's estimates at face value.

Inquiring minds want the official numbers on which to base the cost per job created. So please consider the administration's own numbers as reported on Track The Money Recovery.Gov as of October 30, 2009.

So the govt numbers say they have created or "saved" 640,329 jobs. And we've spent 207.3 billion dollars.

That comes out to 323,739.83 per job! ! ! ! ! !

This stimulus is working so well, we should have another one within 6 months. I'm sorry but this sh*t is a terrible joke being played on the American people


The 650k are those directly attributed to the stimulus. Indirectly the Administration is saying the figure is around 1 million.

“We anticipate that these reports will credit the Recovery Act with directly creating or saving about 650,000 jobs,” a senior administration official e-mailed POLITICO Friday morning. “Because these reports show that less than half of the spending through that date created or saved about 650,000 jobs, they confirm government and private forecaster’s estimates that overall Recovery Act spending has created and saved at least 1 million jobs.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28925.html
 
<font size="5"><center>
Stimulus Jobs, Re-revisited</font size>
<font size="4">

"According to the Congressional Budget Office,
the actual number may be more than twice what
Recovery.gov says, and as much as 50 percent
more than what Obama has been saying."</font size></center>


FactCheck
by Viveca Novak
Tuesday, December 1, 2009


Reports from journalists and the Government Accountability Office last month about problems with the data on Recovery.gov cast doubt on the site’s claim that more than 640,000 jobs had been created or saved by the Obama administration’s American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Meanwhile Obama upped the ante, putting the figure at more than 1 million. On Nov. 12, for example, in announcing this month’s jobs summit, he said that the stimulus had “created and saved more than a million jobs.”

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Now some good news for the White House: According to the Congressional Budget Office, the actual number may be more than twice what Recovery.gov says, and as much as 50 percent more than what Obama has been saying.</span> The nonpartisan agency found that:
CBO, Nov. 30: <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">n the third quarter of calendar year 2009, an additional 600,000 to 1.6 million people were employed in the United States, and real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product was 1.2 percent to 3.2 percent higher, than would have been the case in the absence of ARRA.</span>


That’s a pretty broad spread, but CBO says the range includes the views of most economists and reflects the inherent uncertainty of such estimates. The agency, unlike Recovery.gov, didn’t depend just on reports filed by recipients of stimulus funds to make its calculations, because the reports don’t provide a complete picture of the law’s impact on jobs. For one thing, the reports measure only jobs created or saved by employers who receive stimulus money directly or their immediate subcontractors, but not lower-level contractors. In addition, the fact that grant recipients and their workers have money in their pockets means they’ll spend some of it on products and services, creating more jobs. And the reports, CBO notes, only cover some of ARRA’s spending; the effects of tax cuts, transfers to individuals (such as unemployment payments) and other elements of the stimulus package aren’t measured on Recovery.gov.

Instead, CBO, taking the money spent so far and estimates of the stimulus act’s impact on spending and revenue, arrived at its figures using evidence of how earlier policies have affected the economy as well as various economic models. The agency’s numbers were remarkably consistent with its estimates from March 2009, when it projected that 600,000 to 1.5 million jobs would be created or saved and real GDP would be 1.1 percent to 3.0 percent higher than it would have been without the stimulus.

CBO also estimated that about $190 billion of ARRA’s authorized $787 billion had been spent by the end of September, about $100 billion of it in direct outlays <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">and $90 billion in tax cuts</span>. <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">That leaves nearly $600 billion to go.</span>

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/stimulus-jobs-re-revisited/
 
With the introduction of a new jobs bill, Can we put this argument to rest?

$787 bn didn't do what the govt thought it would!
 
With the introduction of a new jobs bill, Can we put this argument to rest?

$787 bn didn't do what the govt thought it would!

Thats a common refrain of some in the Republican Party and some among the Tea movement. Who among them has the most interest in that money <u>not</u> doing what the government said it would ??? Are there any common threads between the two ???

QueEx
 
<font face="verdana" size="3" color="#000000">
The RepubliKlan strategy for dealing with inconvenient truths has always been to Lie!, Lie! & Lie!

Who can forget the massive Republiklan lie during the BuShit administration - "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

The Obama administration’s stimulus package provided another opportunity for RepubliKlans to utilize the Lie!, Lie! & Lie! Strategy, with <s>FOX</s> FAKE news putting RepubliKlan lies on 24/7 blast. If you want to know why the Lie!, Lie! & Lie! Strategy works sufficiently enough to be effective, even though the lies are so easy to prove as false, look at the passage below.
<blockquote><font color="#0000FF">
Functional illiteracy in North America is epidemic. There are 7 million illiterate Americans. Another 27 million are unable to read well enough to complete a job application, and 30 million can’t read a simple sentence. There are some 50 million who read at a fourth- or fifth-grade level. Nearly a third of the nation’s population is illiterate or barely literate – a figure that is growing by more than 2 million a year. A third of high-school graduates never read another book for the rest of their lives, and neither do 42 percent of college graduates. In 2007, 80 percent of the families in the United States did not buy or read a book.</font></blockquote>
[/color] by Chris Hedges page 44

One year after the passage of the Obama administrations stimulus bill the hypocrisy of the RepubliKlan Lie!, Lie! & Lie! Strategy has been revealed in the “reality-based community”.

The Wall Street Journal published RepubliKlan letters to the Obama administration asking for stimulus money for their districts; even as the publicly trashed the stimulus program as a waste of taxpayers’ money.

READ: Republicans Who Slammed $787 Billion Program Also Sought Funds for Projects in Their Districts, Letters Show

READ: READ THE ACTUAL LETTERS

Without the stimulus program ‘official’ unemployment rate would be over 20%. Saving millions of teachers, policemen, fireman, transportation workers jobs is not inconsequential; just ask the governors of those states who didn’t need to make those millions of layoffs due to the federal stimulus money.

The video and article below exposes the RepubliKlans lies and hypocrisy.



</font>
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Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success


Feb. 17 2010

By DAVID LEONHARDT


Imagine if, one year ago, Congress had passed a stimulus bill that really worked.

Let’s say this bill had started spending money within a matter of weeks and had rapidly helped the economy. Let’s also imagine it was large enough to have had a huge impact on jobs — employing something like two million people who would otherwise be unemployed right now.

If that had happened, what would the economy look like today?

Well, it would look almost exactly as it does now. Because those nice descriptions of the stimulus that I just gave aren’t hypothetical. They are descriptions of the actual bill.
<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 0);"><b>
Just look at the outside evaluations of the stimulus. Perhaps the best-known economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers and Moody’s Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs. The Congressional Budget Office, an independent agency, considers these estimates to be conservative.</B></SPAN>

Yet I’m guessing you don’t think of the stimulus bill as a big success. You’ve read columns (by me, for example) complaining that it should have spent money more quickly. Or you’ve heard about the phantom ZIP code scandal: the fact that a government Web site mistakenly reported money being spent in nonexistent ZIP codes.

And many of the criticisms are valid. The program has had its flaws. But the attention they have received is wildly disproportionate to their importance. To hark back to another big government program, it’s almost as if the lasting image of the lunar space program was Apollo 6, an unmanned 1968 mission that had engine problems, and not Apollo 11, the moon landing.

The reasons for the stimulus’s middling popularity aren’t a mystery. The unemployment rate remains near 10 percent, and many families are struggling. Saying that things could have been even worse doesn’t exactly inspire. Liberals don’t like the stimulus because they wish it were bigger. Republicans don’t like it because it’s a Democratic program. The Obama administration hurt the bill’s popularity by making too rosy an economic forecast upon taking office.

Moreover, the introduction of the most visible parts of the program — spending on roads, buildings and the like — has been a bit sluggish. Aid to states, unemployment benefits and some tax provisions have been more successful and account for far more of the bill. But their successes are not obvious.

Even if the conventional wisdom is understandable, however, it has consequences. Because the economy is still a long way from being healthy, members of Congress are now debating another, smaller stimulus bill. (They’re calling it a “jobs bill,” seeing stimulus as a dirty word.) The logical thing to do would be to examine what worked and what didn’t in last year’s bill.

But that’s not what is happening. Instead, the debate is largely disconnected from the huge stimulus experiment we just ran. Why? As Senator Scott Brown of Massachusetts, the newest member of Congress, said, in a nice summary of the misperceptions, the stimulus might have saved some jobs, but it “didn’t create one new job.”

The case against the stimulus revolves around the idea that the economy would be no worse off without it. As a Wall Street Journal opinion piece put it last year, “The resilience of the private sector following the fall 2008 panic — not the fiscal stimulus program — deserves the lion’s share of the credit for the impressive growth improvement.” In a touch of unintended irony, two of article’s three authors were listed as working at a research institution named for Herbert Hoover.

Of course, no one can be certain about what would have happened in an alternate universe without a $787 billion stimulus. But there are two main reasons to think the hard-core skeptics are misguided — above and beyond those complicated, independent economic analyses.

The first is the basic narrative that the data offer. Pick just about any area of the economy and you come across the stimulus bill’s footprints.
<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 0);"><b>
In the early months of last year, spending by state and local governments was falling rapidly, as was tax revenue. In the spring, tax revenue continued to drop, yet spending jumped — during the very time when state and local officials were finding out roughly how much stimulus money they would be receiving. This is the money that has kept teachers, police officers, health care workers and firefighters employed.</B></SPAN>

Then there is corporate spending. It surged in the final months of last year. Mark Zandi of Economy.com (who has advised the McCain campaign and Congressional Democrats) says that the Dec. 31 expiration of a tax credit for corporate investment, which was part of the stimulus, is a big reason.

The story isn’t quite as clear-cut with consumer spending, as skeptics note. Its sharp plunge stopped before President Obama signed the stimulus into law exactly one year ago. But the billions of dollars in tax cuts, food stamps and jobless benefits in the stimulus have still made a difference. Since February, aggregate wages and salaries have fallen, while consumer spending has risen. The difference between the two — some $100 billion — has essentially come from stimulus checks.

The second argument in the bill’s favor is the history of financial crises. They have wreaked terrible damage on economies. Indeed, the damage tended to be even worse than what we have suffered.

Around the world over the last century, the typical financial crisis caused the jobless rate to rise for almost five years, according to work by the economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff. On that timeline, our rate would still be rising in early 2012. Even that may be optimistic, given that the recent crisis was so bad. As Ben Bernanke, Henry Paulson (Republicans both) and many others warned in 2008, this recession had the potential to become a depression.

Yet the jobless rate is now expected to begin falling consistently by the end of this year.

For that, <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 0);"><b>the stimulus package, flaws and all, deserves a big heaping of credit. “It prevented things from getting much worse than they otherwise would have been,” Nariman Behravesh, Global Insight’s chief economist, says. “I think everyone would have to acknowledge that’s a good thing.” </B></SPAN>

So what now?

The last year has shown — just as economists have long said — that aid to states and cities may be the single most effective form of stimulus. Unlike road- or bridge-building, it can happen in a matter of weeks. And unlike tax cuts, state and local aid never languishes in a household’s savings account.

The ideal follow-up stimulus would start with that aid. It would then add on extended jobless benefits, which also tend to be spent, as well as tax credits carefully drafted to get businesses to hire and households to spend, like the cash-for-clunkers program.

By this yardstick, the $154 billion bill that the House passed in December is decent. It includes $27 billion in state and local aid, $79 billion for jobless benefits and other safety nets, and $48 billion in infrastructure spending.

The smaller bills being considered by the Senate are worse. They may end up with no state aid at all, and their tax credits sound better — with promises to help the long-term unemployed and small businesses — than they are. “The economic impact of the Senate bill, at this point, is starting to look very small,” Mr. Behravesh says.

Given what people have been saying about a successful stimulus bill, just imagine what they’ll say about one that doesn’t accomplish much.



sc-fair-fight.jpg
 
The Business Insider

Keynesian remedies do not work. :smh:

"Financial conditions appear to have worsened substantially in recent quarters based on our update of the broad index of US financial variables presented earlier this year at the US Monetary Policy Forum. In the wake of recent developments in Europe, increased stress in financial markets has pushed that index halfway back to its immediate post- Lehman crisis lows."
 
The Best Stimulus? Spend Less, Borrow Less

FORTUNE -- Of all the highlights of Allan Meltzer's half-century as a distinguished monetarist -- advising Presidents Kennedy and Reagan, producing celebrated books on John Maynard Keynes and the history of the Federal Reserve -- none proved more memorable than a crisis session at 10 Downing Street in mid-1980.

A group of 346 noted economists had just written a scathing open letter to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, predicting that her tough fiscal policies would "deepen the depression, erode the industrial base, and threaten social stability." Thatcher wanted to make absolutely certain her unpopular attack on huge deficits and rampant spending, in the face of high unemployment and a weak economy, was the right one.

So Thatcher summoned Meltzer, along with a group of trusted advisors, to explain why the experts were wrong. Even leaders of her own party advised Thatcher to make what they called a 'U-Turn,' and enact a big spending program to pull Britain out of recession. "Our job was to explain why lower deficits and spending discipline were the key to recovery," recalls Meltzer.

Thatcher was regally unamused by arcane jargon. "Being right on the economics wasn't enough," intones Meltzer. "She made it clear that our job was to explain it so she could understand it. If we didn't, she made it clear we were wasting her time. She'd say, 'You're not telling me what I need to know.'"

Thatcher stuck with draconian policies, invoking the battle chant "The Lady's Not for Turning." She launched Britain years of balanced budgets, modest spending increases, falling joblessness, and extraordinary economic growth.

Misunderstanding Keynes

For Meltzer, the courageous, damn-the-sages stance that Thatcher took three decades ago should guide President Obama today. "If Obama announced a strategy to deal with the long-term debt and stopped doing things to increase the uncertainty that businesses face, it would do a great deal to stimulate the economy," declares the 82-year old Meltzer.

Meltzer is right, and most of the "experts" -- from Paul Krugman to Ben Bernanke -- are wrong. The best stimulus is a solid, credible plan to radically reduce government spending, starting right now.

To be sure, President Obama frequently advocates shrinking deficits in future years. The problem is that he wants to keep spending heavily today, in what's supposedly a classic Keynesian formula for charging a weak recovery and lowering unemployment.

But that formula isn't what Keynes recommended. "Keynes championed temporary deficits to stimulate consumption during recessions," says Steve Hanke, an economist at Johns Hopkins. "But he also insisted that deficits disappear during recoveries, so that budgets would be balanced or in surplus during most of the business cycle."

Today, the administration is pursuing a totally different policy. It's sharply raising expenditures when the U.S. already faces gigantic, chronic deficits that barely shrink even in a recovery, and burgeoning debt. "Keynes specifically warned against structural deficits when both U.S. and British economists were pushing for them at the end of World War II," says Meltzer. "He never said that more spending on top of chronic deficits was a stimulus. Just the opposite, in fact."

The Obama administration is calling for an extra $316 billion in "stimulus" spending in addition to the $862 billion already appropriated. The rub is that the all of the "stimulus" money is being borrowed, and that's adding to already mushrooming debt. Right now, the CBO forecasts deficits of $1.25 trillion or an immense 5.6% of GDP in 2020 -- and that's following a strong recovery. That year, the federal debt will reach 90% of national income, putting the U.S. in the fragile position of a Greece or Portugal. Interest payments will absorb one dollar in every six of federal spending.

The rub is that the shadow of inexorably rising debt, with no plan to curb it, isn't a stimulus at all, but a heavy depressant. The solution is to sharply reverse course and bring the budget into balance over the next decade. That solution will require either a 50% increase in taxes, a 35% reduction in spending, or some combination of the two. The weight should fall heavily on the spending side.

That blueprint would prove a powerful tonic for the economy for four reasons -- call them the four growth factors. First, it would dramatically raise the labor supply by allowing Americans to pocket more of their pay. Second, it would prevent real interest rates from soaring and crippling private investment. Third, it would encourage companies to stop hoarding cash and make the big investments in factories and computers that always drive a recovery. And fourth, it would enormously boost investors' confidence in America's future by showing that, like Thatcher long ago, our leaders won't get swamped by chaos, and really have a plan.

Read the rest here
 
With the introduction of a new jobs bill, Can we put this argument to rest?

$787 bn didn't do what the govt thought it would!

Have they dispersed the entire sum yet? I hadn't heard about that lately.


The Best Stimulus? Spend Less, Borrow Less

FORTUNE -- Of all the highlights of Allan Meltzer's half-century as a distinguished monetarist -- advising Presidents Kennedy and Reagan, producing celebrated books on John Maynard Keynes and the history of the Federal Reserve -- none proved more memorable than a crisis session at 10 Downing Street in mid-1980.

A group of 346 noted economists had just written a scathing open letter to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, predicting that her tough fiscal policies would "deepen the depression, erode the industrial base, and threaten social stability." Thatcher wanted to make absolutely certain her unpopular attack on huge deficits and rampant spending, in the face of high unemployment and a weak economy, was the right one.

So Thatcher summoned Meltzer, along with a group of trusted advisors, to explain why the experts were wrong. Even leaders of her own party advised Thatcher to make what they called a 'U-Turn,' and enact a big spending program to pull Britain out of recession. "Our job was to explain why lower deficits and spending discipline were the key to recovery," recalls Meltzer.

Thatcher was regally unamused by arcane jargon. "Being right on the economics wasn't enough," intones Meltzer. "She made it clear that our job was to explain it so she could understand it. If we didn't, she made it clear we were wasting her time. She'd say, 'You're not telling me what I need to know.'"

Thatcher stuck with draconian policies, invoking the battle chant "The Lady's Not for Turning." She launched Britain years of balanced budgets, modest spending increases, falling joblessness, and extraordinary economic growth.

Misunderstanding Keynes

For Meltzer, the courageous, damn-the-sages stance that Thatcher took three decades ago should guide President Obama today. "If Obama announced a strategy to deal with the long-term debt and stopped doing things to increase the uncertainty that businesses face, it would do a great deal to stimulate the economy," declares the 82-year old Meltzer.

Meltzer is right, and most of the "experts" -- from Paul Krugman to Ben Bernanke -- are wrong. The best stimulus is a solid, credible plan to radically reduce government spending, starting right now.

To be sure, President Obama frequently advocates shrinking deficits in future years. The problem is that he wants to keep spending heavily today, in what's supposedly a classic Keynesian formula for charging a weak recovery and lowering unemployment.

But that formula isn't what Keynes recommended. "Keynes championed temporary deficits to stimulate consumption during recessions," says Steve Hanke, an economist at Johns Hopkins. "But he also insisted that deficits disappear during recoveries, so that budgets would be balanced or in surplus during most of the business cycle."

Today, the administration is pursuing a totally different policy. It's sharply raising expenditures when the U.S. already faces gigantic, chronic deficits that barely shrink even in a recovery, and burgeoning debt. "Keynes specifically warned against structural deficits when both U.S. and British economists were pushing for them at the end of World War II," says Meltzer. "He never said that more spending on top of chronic deficits was a stimulus. Just the opposite, in fact."

The Obama administration is calling for an extra $316 billion in "stimulus" spending in addition to the $862 billion already appropriated. The rub is that the all of the "stimulus" money is being borrowed, and that's adding to already mushrooming debt. Right now, the CBO forecasts deficits of $1.25 trillion or an immense 5.6% of GDP in 2020 -- and that's following a strong recovery. That year, the federal debt will reach 90% of national income, putting the U.S. in the fragile position of a Greece or Portugal. Interest payments will absorb one dollar in every six of federal spending.

The rub is that the shadow of inexorably rising debt, with no plan to curb it, isn't a stimulus at all, but a heavy depressant. The solution is to sharply reverse course and bring the budget into balance over the next decade. That solution will require either a 50% increase in taxes, a 35% reduction in spending, or some combination of the two. The weight should fall heavily on the spending side.

That blueprint would prove a powerful tonic for the economy for four reasons -- call them the four growth factors. First, it would dramatically raise the labor supply by allowing Americans to pocket more of their pay. Second, it would prevent real interest rates from soaring and crippling private investment. Third, it would encourage companies to stop hoarding cash and make the big investments in factories and computers that always drive a recovery. And fourth, it would enormously boost investors' confidence in America's future by showing that, like Thatcher long ago, our leaders won't get swamped by chaos, and really have a plan.

Read the rest here


Interesting. Good read.
though it seems not to suggest that Keynesian doesn't work but that Obama isn't following it correctly.
 
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I like the way Republicans have handled this, even if I find it immoral: first vote against Recovery Act, then show up and take credit for jobs created in your district by said Act, then say on cable news shows that it hasn't created any jobs, then make sure to find against stimulating acts like unemployment benefits and small business tax breaks while claiming you're voting against tax hikes. It's genius really. They know there's an entire industry out there supporting their lies and double dealings (Fox News, Rush, Savage) and the people who's job it is to call it down the middle (the mainstream press and media) are so corrupt/incompetent they won't call them out except those who are known as "Liberal commentators" like Rachel Maddown, Keith Olbermann, and The Nation magazine.
 
Why Obamanomics Has Failed

Why Obamanomics Has Failed
Uncertainty about future taxes and regulations is enemy No. 1 of economic growth.
By ALLAN H. MELTZER
JUNE 30, 2010

The administration's stimulus program has failed. Growth is slow and unemployment remains high. The president, his friends and advisers talk endlessly about the circumstances they inherited as a way of avoiding responsibility for the 18 months for which they are responsible.

But they want new stimulus measures—which is convincing evidence that they too recognize that the earlier measures failed. And so the U.S. was odd-man out at the G-20 meeting over the weekend, continuing to call for more government spending in the face of European resistance.

The contrast with President Reagan's antirecession and pro-growth measures in 1981 is striking. Reagan reduced marginal and corporate tax rates and slowed the growth of nondefense spending. Recovery began about a year later. After 18 months, the economy grew more than 9% and it continued to expand above trend rates.

Two overarching reasons explain the failure of Obamanomics. First, administration economists and their outside supporters neglected the longer-term costs and consequences of their actions. Second, the administration and Congress have through their deeds and words heightened uncertainty about the economic future. High uncertainty is the enemy of investment and growth.

Most of the earlier spending was a very short-term response to long-term problems. One piece financed temporary tax cuts. This was a mistake, and ignores the role of expectations in the economy. Economic theory predicts that temporary tax cuts have little effect on spending. Unless tax cuts are expected to last, consumers save the proceeds and pay down debt. Experience with past temporary tax reductions, as in the Carter and first Bush presidencies, confirms this outcome.

Another large part of the stimulus went to relieve state and local governments of their budget deficits. Transferring a deficit from the state to the federal government changes very little. Some teachers and police got an additional year of employment, but their gain is temporary. Any benefits to them must be balanced against the negative effect of the increased public debt and the temporary nature of the transfer.

The Obama economic team ignored past history. The two most successful fiscal stimulus programs since World War II—under Kennedy-Johnson and Reagan—took the form of permanent reductions in corporate and marginal tax rates. Economist Arthur Okun, who had a major role in developing the Kennedy-Johnson program, later analyzed the effect of individual items. He concluded that corporate tax reduction was most effective.

Another defect of Obamanomics was that part of the increased spending authorized by the 2009 stimulus bill was held back. Remember the oft-repeated claim that the spending would go for "shovel ready" projects? That didn't happen, though spending will flow more rapidly now in an effort to lower unemployment and claim economic success during the fall election campaign.

In his January 2010 State of the Union address, President Obama recognized that the United States must increase exports. He was right, but he has done little to help, either by encouraging investment to increase productivity, or by supporting trade agreements, despite his promise to the Koreans that he repeated in Toronto. Export earnings are the only way to service our massive foreign borrowing. This should be a high priority. Isn't anyone in the government thinking about the future?

Mr. Obama has denied the cost burden on business from his health-care program, but business is aware that it is likely to be large. How large? That's part of the uncertainty that employers face if they hire additional labor.

The president asks for cap and trade. That's more cost and more uncertainty. Who will be forced to pay? What will it do to costs here compared to foreign producers? We should not expect businesses to invest in new, export-led growth when uncertainty about future costs is so large.

Then there is Medicaid, the medical program for those with lower incomes. In the past, states paid about half of the cost, and they are responsible for 20% of the additional cost imposed by the program's expansion. But almost all the states must balance their budgets, and the new Medicaid spending mandated by ObamaCare comes at a time when states face large deficits and even larger unfunded liabilities for pensions. All this only adds to uncertainty about taxes and spending.

Other aspects of the Obama economic program are equally problematic. The auto bailouts ran roughshod over the rule of law. Chrysler bondholders were given short shrift in order to benefit the auto workers union. By weakening the rule of law, the president opened the way to great mischief and increased investors' and producers' uncertainty. That's not the way to get more investment and employment.

Almost daily, Mr. Obama uses his rhetorical skill to castigate businessmen who have the audacity to hope for profitable opportunities. No president since Franklin Roosevelt has taken that route. President Roosevelt slowed recovery in 1938-40 until the war by creating uncertainty about his objectives. It was harmful then, and it's harmful now.

In 1980, I had the privilege of advising Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher to ignore the demands of 360 British economists who made the outrageous claim that Britain would never (yes, never) recover from her decision to reduce government spending during a severe recession. They wanted more spending. She responded with a speech promising to stay with her tight budget. She kept a sustained focus on long-term problems. Expectations about the economy's future improved, and the recovery soon began.

That's what the U.S. needs now. Not major cuts in current spending, but a credible plan showing that authorities will not wait for a fiscal crisis but begin to act prudently and continue until deficits disappear, and the debt is below 60% of GDP. Rep. Paul Ryan (R., Wisc.) offered a plan, but the administration and Congress ignored it.

The country does not need more of the same. Successful leaders give the public reason to believe that they have a long-term program to bring a better tomorrow. Let's plan our way out of our explosive deficits and our hesitant and jobless recovery by reducing uncertainty and encouraging growth.

Mr. Meltzer is a professor of economics at Carnegie Mellon University, a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and the author of "A History of the Federal Reserve" (University of Chicago Press, 2003 and 2010).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704629804575325233508651458.html
 
The so called "Stimulus Packages" that Obama keeps cosigning are in fact Band-Aids to complex issues. It'll be time for re-election soon. The unemployment rate will be a big factor in him winning a second term...and he knows this. His popularity is stil there...but its no where near where it was back in 2008 when he lied about "Change". He has to be carful with the moves that he makes from here on out.

His Admin will try their hardest to twist the numbers for 2012 via stopping Americans unemployment benefits which would create an illusion that the unemployment numbers are improving, [sarcasm]hire 100,000+ people in early 2012 to cut the white house lawn[/sarcasm],..shit like that.

Some think that if he legalizes millions of law breaking Mexicans that wil some how guaranty him millions of new voters; but if you look throughout history Mexicans usually turn the other cheek when it comes to returning favors to their subservient Negro friends. Plus...most of them wont even bother voting when the time comes because they will be too jubilant about successfully fucking over the American system.


but anyways.....back to the non stimulating stimulus packages.
Have yall heard about Obama asking for more money?

Obama's $50 Billion Request Gets Chilly Reception From House Dems
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/obamas-50-billion-request_n_613224.html


There hasnt been much talk about this because theres bigger things being discussed in the media....like Soccer :hmm:
 
The so called "Stimulus Packages" that Obama keeps cosigning are in fact Band-Aids to complex issues. It'll be time for re-election soon. The unemployment rate will be a big factor in him winning a second term...and he knows this. His popularity is stil there...but its no where near where it was back in 2008 when he lied about "Change". He has to be carful with the moves that he makes from here on out.

His Admin will try their hardest to twist the numbers for 2012 via stopping Americans unemployment benefits which would create an illusion that the unemployment numbers are improving, [sarcasm]hire 100,000+ people in early 2012 to cut the white house lawn[/sarcasm],..shit like that.



but anyways.....back to the non stimulating stimulus packages.
Have yall heard about Obama asking for more money?

Obama's $50 Billion Request Gets Chilly Reception From House Dems
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/obamas-50-billion-request_n_613224.html


There hasnt been much talk about this because theres bigger things being discussed in the media....like Soccer :hmm:


How did he lie? I think he clearly said what he wanted to do but he said repeatedly that he would need the help and backing of his supporters and that hasn't materialized as strongly since the election.
He's made the largetst investment in infrastructure since Eisenhower (in the Recovery Act).
He's overhauled the student loan industry, saving billions of dollars.
He signed a hate crimes prevention bill and the Lily Ledbetter Act which enforces equal pay for equal work.
He's signed health insurance reform and is on the verge of signing financial reform, two major initiatives that other Presidents have talked about never done anything about.
He increased the budgets for NASA, the National Science Foundation, and he funded Bush's experimental energy agency.
Does he walk on water? Nope. Has he been perfect? Nope. Has he reversed himself on several issues? Yep. But to act like he hasn't set out to make the very change he campaigned on real isn't even close to true.
 
He's overhauled the student loan industry, saving billions of dollars.
He signed a hate crimes prevention bill and the Lily Ledbetter Act which enforces equal pay for equal work.
He's signed health insurance reform and is on the verge of signing financial reform
He increased the budgets for NASA, the National Science Foundation, and he funded Bush's experimental energy agency.

Dave, you're a rational thinker/debater on this board and we don't always agree, which is healthy but let me pose a serious question to you & the board: I was NOT a fan of the Bush admin for many, many, many reasons but Can someone tell me what was put in place to reverse the "reckless economic policies of the Bush Administration"?

* we still have 'managed' trade agreements NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO etc.
* we still have 0% interest rates from the Fed
* we still got troops in Iraq & Afghanistan
* trade deficit expanding
 
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Dave, you're a rational thinker/debater on this board and we don't always agree, which is healthy but let me pose a serious question to you & the board: I was NOT a fan of the Bush admin for many, many, many reasons but Can someone tell me what was put in place to reverse the "reckless economic policies of the Bush Administration"?

* we still have 'managed' trade agreements NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO etc.
* we still have 0% interest rates from the Fed
* we still got troops in Iraq & Afghanistan
* trade deficit expanding

You didn't really pose a question, you stated a position. So:

Are you looking for rationality or agreement ?

Or. disagreement or validation ?

QueEx
 
Walter Williams On the Great Depression

Before getting to the nitty-gritty of why stimulus packages fail, let’s look at the failed stimulus program of Obama’s hero, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. FDR’s Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau, wrote in his diary: “We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. … We have never made good on our promises. … I say after eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started … and an enormous debt to boot!”
 
The government has no DAMN business trying to "stimulate" the economy.

When did that become the job of the Federal government?

Wait, I know.

It was the time when everyone wanted money to be "convenient" and abundant.
 
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