When does Arab influence end and Moor contribution start? Arabs are the ones that pushed east from Arabia while pushing west into Africa. Some of the 'knowledge' came from the Arabs pushing east and bringing back information.
What happend to the black people that ruled europe?
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When does Arab influence end and Moor contribution start? Arabs are the ones that pushed east from Arabia while pushing west into Africa. Some of the 'knowledge' came from the Arabs pushing east and bringing back information.
I just want to point something out. You all can do with it what you will, (I picked the first one I saw that did not have 'Moorish' in the description)
Do with this what you will. But you all do realize that we are way off track right now?
I just want to point something out. You all can do with it what you will, (I picked the first one I saw that did not have 'Moorish' in the description)
Do with this what you will. But you all do realize that we are way off track right now?
Not really understanding what you're getting at.
Elaborate please
Naw...I want you to.
All of y'all.
I've been monitoring this conversation for a while, (including the original thread a few months back), and I'm interested to see where it ENDS. Cause it's not. That's why I said we off track, cause we are. If you can explain all three of these pictures you would be able to grasp the situation at hand and understand why some things are important and some are not.
And we can get back to answering the question at hand.
How am I supposed to explain to YOU, something YOU posted? Just looks like you googled a name and selected a few images that came up.
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Your own claim was that the oldest depictions of St Maurice were white but your own pictures proved you wrong.That statue of St Maurice in Germany was created around the year 1250. You also said that the story of St Maurice was a myth and he probably never existed. Yet he has a birthday 250 ad and a death date 287 ad. And there are several historical accounts of people who encounter him.
So again,why is St Benedict a clearly Black man who is a Christian St referred to as a Moor!
keep in mind, The story of St Maurice and the martyrs of the theban legion is said to have happened around 300.
Now heres whats said about the time that Maurice eventually being depicted as a Black man.
Scholars believe that Maurice started being depicted as a dark-skinned African at this time because the Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick II Barbarossa, had ambitions to rule the entire world, just as the Pope claimed spiritual dominion over the entire world. We know that Frederick had black Africans at his court and in his retinue.
Magdeburg, where the first image of Maurice as a black African appeared, was on the frontiers of the Empire, and was a region of military expansion. For whatever reasons, though, the black Saint Maurice became the subject of a masterpiece of Western art in Magdeburg and the subject of some of the greatest works of art created during the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance.
so this mindset went on in Europe from that early 13th century period up until around 16th century, when more negative views of Black peope started to occur as the transatlantic slavetrade got going, and this whole idea of race and scientific racism(scientists actually attempting to prove superiority) really kicked in.
Heres the temple in the actual town it was said to have happened in. Very hard to see this shrine, and it's certainly been restored in the modern age, so maybe they changed it from the Black one at some point, but there he is, as a white guy.
I know that he has a birthdate and a death date, but I don't know of these people you say who have accounts of him. Again, this is from around 300, and the historicity of it is debatable, but if you wanna run with that, fine.
As far as Benedict, it seems the same kind of story. He's the patron saint of African Americans... seems to be another political deal to bring more to the catholic flock.
Neither one of them are by any means, have anything to do with the Muslim Moors who people are trying to connect to that created Al Andulus.
It's certainly true that by that time, the term was just being used in Europe to describe any African.
And all that distracts us from the main point.
Again, the MOORS who ran europe were largely Arab and berber- which in our minds and in the context of what we're talking about- are arab.
To find a few black people, one clearly captured as a slave, and probably delivered BY ARABS to europe and claim Black people conquered Europe is disingenuous.- especially across such a broad span of time.
Not if admitting that requires they also admit they were first handedly defeated and conquered by the Moors, they ruled Europe for an extensive period and were largely responsible for taking them out of the dark ages.
yeah, cuz there aren't countless documentaries and writing on Moorish Spain as a period of history talking about it extensively.
Western scientists, philosophers, mathematicians and the like give credit to the arab world all the time for contributing things like Algebra, naming the stars, inventing medical practices, architectural feats, political philosophies and many other aspects of modern civilization.
Moorish Spain has never been a secret. They ruled for 700 years, no ones ever denied that.
What you guys wanna imply is that WE are direct descendants of that, and THATS whats kept a secret.
So what is your point for posting more modern paintings of a white washed St Maurice?keep in mind, The story of St Maurice and the martyrs of the theban legion is said to have happened around 300.
Now heres whats said about the time that Maurice eventually being depicted as a Black man.
Scholars believe that Maurice started being depicted as a dark-skinned African at this time because the Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick II Barbarossa, had ambitions to rule the entire world, just as the Pope claimed spiritual dominion over the entire world. We know that Frederick had black Africans at his court and in his retinue.
Magdeburg, where the first image of Maurice as a black African appeared, was on the frontiers of the Empire, and was a region of military expansion. For whatever reasons, though, the black Saint Maurice became the subject of a masterpiece of Western art in Magdeburg and the subject of some of the greatest works of art created during the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance.
so this mindset went on in Europe from that early 13th century period up until around 16th century, when more negative views of Black peope started to occur as the transatlantic slavetrade got going, and this whole idea of race and scientific racism(scientists actually attempting to prove superiority) really kicked in.
Heres the temple in the actual town it was said to have happened in. Very hard to see this shrine, and it's certainly been restored in the modern age, so maybe they changed it from the Black one at some point, but there he is, as a white guy.
I know that he has a birthdate and a death date, but I don't know of these people you say who have accounts of him. Again, this is from around 300, and the historicity of it is debatable, but if you wanna run with that, fine.
As far as Benedict, it seems the same kind of story. He's the patron saint of African Americans... seems to be another political deal to bring more to the catholic flock.
Neither one of them are by any means, have anything to do with the Muslim Moors who people are trying to connect to that created Al Andulus.
It's certainly true that by that time, the term was just being used in Europe to describe any African.
And all that distracts us from the main point.
Again, the MOORS who ran europe were largely Arab and berber- which in our minds and in the context of what we're talking about- are arab.
To find a few black people, one clearly captured as a slave, and probably delivered BY ARABS to europe and claim Black people conquered Europe is disingenuous.- especially across such a broad span of time.
yeah, cuz there aren't countless documentaries and writing on Moorish Spain as a period of history talking about it extensively.
Western scientists, philosophers, mathematicians and the like give credit to the arab world all the time for contributing things like Algebra, naming the stars, inventing medical practices, architectural feats, political philosophies and many other aspects of modern civilization.
Moorish Spain has never been a secret. They ruled for 700 years, no ones ever denied that.
What you guys wanna imply is that WE are direct descendants of that, and THATS whats kept a secret.
So let's me be clear on what you are saying.You are saying that the Moors who ruled in Europe were not the Black one but the "Arab" one...Correct? And saying that " we did not descend from them" sounds like a white supremacist type of argument. The majority of white people did not "descend " from the Ancient Greek but they sure take credit today for all the Greek accomplishments under the collective banner of "white". So what's wrong with us ( not you because I suspect you of being white at this point) taking collective credit for Black accomplishments? Like the accomplishments on the Black skinned Moors who ruled over whites in Europe.
And the revenge wasn't worse than anything that happened in Europe? Not to mention that they expanded on everything that the Moors brought, while the Moors didn't.
This is akin to not being the man in high school and then being a billionaire at 35. If Europeans had extracted such revenge on the Moors and then made all these scientific advancements, they'd never shut the fuck up about it. The revenge has no precedent.
But as exiledking stated, it's no secret about the Moor invasion and the contributions of the Islamic golden age to advancing damn near everyone involved(including the Moors who spread the knowledge to Europe).
You brought it up. I just fleshed out the story. Lots of stories Black folks started to get hype about as evidence of something great for us unfortunately is rooted in some European Christian propaganda. Those two you brought up are examples.
You're absolutely right. You may wanna read through this thread and others where several times I mention that lots of Europeans will spout some Greek or roman shit and it ain't got nothin to do with their lineage lol.
I wouldn't expect a Vietnamese person tongi around bragging about the accomplishments of the ancient Chinese empire.
Or a Japanese person. They know their own cultures contributions and they don't need it.
We don't either.
Arabs wouldn't consider themselves Black, regardless of how often we go on about "people of color". Moreover that same group of Muslims who came out of Arabia and dominated the Berbers in North Africa, in turn dominating Southern Europe, turned around and did the same thing in sub Saharan Africa AND east Africa.
This is why SUDAN means "land of the blacks" IN ARABIC. this is why Zanzibar means "land of the ZANJ" in Persian. This is why the Arab slave trade MAY have imported and killed more black Africans than Europeans ever did.
And none of that is to say that I don't get along with Arabs and I got a vendetta against em or nothin, but if we're talking history, I like to be accurate.
I find it corny and sad that Black men in a predominately Black board can't disagree on points without resorting to "well you must be white then". That shit is lame. WE truly are on the same side.
I saw Ivan van sertima in the flesh back in the 90s. I went to see speeches, read the books, watched the tapes, same shit as anyone else in here. I continue to read, EVEN the opposing ideas, and I compare and contrast, as well as attempt to independently verify evidence.
It makes ZERO sense to me for American Blacks, or any of us that got here via the middle passage to be claiming any pride about Moorish Spain.
If that lasted all the way up til the 15th century, then that was going on during the time of the Ghana, Mali, and Songhai empires which actually came crashing down with the entry of Arabs from the north who are still tormenting west Africans even after many had converted to Islam.
That's the original question... How do those two cultures and timelines match up?
I say they don't. Sorry to disappoint. If us think it's because I don't see the greatness of Black people then you're mistaken.
we can claim credit for anything because every person came from our origination. you are welcome.
yeah, cuz there aren't countless documentaries and writing on Moorish Spain as a period of history talking about it extensively.
Western scientists, philosophers, mathematicians and the like give credit to the arab world all the time for contributing things like Algebra, naming the stars, inventing medical practices, architectural feats, political philosophies and many other aspects of modern civilization.
Moorish Spain has never been a secret. They ruled for 700 years, no ones ever denied that.
What you guys wanna imply is that WE are direct descendants of that, and THATS whats kept a secret.
if there are sooooo many documentaries telling the story why do you continue to need Google runs as your point of reference?
To act as if this history is told to the masses and has not been white washed and distorted is fucking laughable.
Again, you're the same guy whose original stance was there were no black moors or depictions of black moors. You're full of shit.
I'm not running to google for all of that but why do you keep actin like google is the devil in the first place anyway?
If you googled you would find at least 3 docs that tell you the shit anyway. The fact that you missed out on that and only ran to something that tells you it was Black people is telling.
The shit that's in Google is also on the history channel and 3 other outlets. It's really not even deep.
You're the one overlooking the simple fact that those are Muslim temples and Arabic architecture and language and culture - settling on a few pics of blackamoors out of literally MILLIONS of others.
This is the problem with shit like hidden colors and all that flea market shit. It's a great start but ya gotta contrast that shit. It's damn near as bad as JUST depending on the school system to tell us shit.
I would post some for you but I already know your response.
"Aawww man you just listenin to the white man"
I can't believe you've never seen any of em. They're literally on all the time.
Well if that's the case, why differentiate from anything in the first place? Let's just say the Roman Empire was black, the Persian empire, the ancient Chinese, the ottomans later, shit EVERYBODY. I'm down for that.
Respectfully, i dont think anyone got it. Articulate your point and stop talking in riddles.
So blacks were following the bible in 200AD's but the bible is a white man's book?Now you are just reduced to straight up LYING.The paintings of the so called white looking St Maurice are more modern..The oldest depictions of St. Maurice show him as a Black man..Case in point:
I could literally go on and on because there are hundreds of depictions of St. Maurice as a Black man all over Europe.
And you say that Saint Benedict the Moor was white too?
Here is a statue that was created in the 1700's of St Benedict thats in a CHRISTIAN CHURCH in Europe today.
So my question to you is WHY IS THERE A STATUE OF A CLEARLY BLACK CHRISTIAN SAINT AND HE IS REFERRED TO AS A MOOR?
I will await your bullish... I mean answer
can anyone name one black man that ruled in europe
Great question. I'd love to hear an answer from amajorfucup or the others who are telling me how stupid I am.
So blacks were following the bible in 200AD's but the bible is a white man's book?
You quoted something but I don't see anything about 200ad in it.
The Romans put compiled the books, and called em the bible . People typically associate them with being white. So yeah, it's the White mans book.
can anyone name one black man that ruled in europe
Great question. I'd love to hear an answer from amajorfucup or the others who are telling me how stupid I am.
So blacks were following the bible in 200AD's but the bible is a white man's book?
You quoted something but I don't see anything about 200ad in it.
The Romans put compiled the books, and called em the bible . People typically associate them with being white. So yeah, it's the White mans book as far as I'm aware.
just goggled maurice said he died in like 289 AD this would have been before the coucil of cicea
Three things happened to the people that ruled Europe.
For starters, those that were there either fought and encountered genocide or fought and fled.
For those that took refuge, in the inner sanctum of Europe are still there just like all other black people who are in countries outside of Africa but you never catch a photograph, a tv interview, or any media glimpse of them.
Marginalized as usual.
By the way, this was thousands of years BEFORE the Moors, just so we are clear.
For starters, those that were there either fought and encountered genocide or fought and fled.
For those that took refuge, in the inner sanctum of Europe are still there just like all other black people who are in countries outside of Africa but you never catch a photograph, a tv interview, or any media glimpse of them.
Marginalized as usual.
By the way, this was thousands of years BEFORE the Moors, just so we are clear.
Three things happened to the people that ruled Europe.
For starters, those that were there either fought and encountered genocide or fought, survived, and fled.
For those that took refuge, in the inner sanctum of Europe are still there just like all other black people who are in countries outside of Africa but you never catch a photograph, a tv interview, or any media glimpse of them.
Marginalized as usual.
By the way, this was thousands of years BEFORE the Moors, just so we are clear.
For starters, those that were there either fought and encountered genocide or fought, survived, and fled.
For those that took refuge, in the inner sanctum of Europe are still there just like all other black people who are in countries outside of Africa but you never catch a photograph, a tv interview, or any media glimpse of them.
Marginalized as usual.
By the way, this was thousands of years BEFORE the Moors, just so we are clear.
Since there are "Millions" of OTHERS who you say were Moors during the Middle ages,can you post ONE painting of a white Moor from a picture that was dated anytime during the Middle agree (roughly anytime before the year 1500). Can you do that? Non some undated painting of some random Arab. Post a painting of a white or pale Moor where the painting says its a moor. If you said there are millions,you should have no problem with posting ONE.
can anyone name one black man that ruled in europe
One is Alessandro De Medici
He ruled in Italy and his nickname was "The Moor"
can anyone name one black man that ruled in europe
King Kenneth Dubh – Black King of Scotland
A curious aspect of this early history concerns various stories around Kenneth. King Kenneth was also known as ‘Kenneth the Niger’ or Kenneth Dubh, a surname which means ‘the black man’. It is a matter of history that many seafaring warriors were North African, travelled via Iberia into Europe, and joined in many cultures and held power and position. Niger Val Dubh lived and reigned over certain black divisions in Scotland, and some histories state that a race known as ‘the sons of the blacks’ succeeded him. (e.g. see JA Rogers, Sex and Race). Kenneth III was king of Scotland from 997 to 1005. He was the son of King Dubh (Dub mac Mail Choluim – 962-967), fourth cousin of the previous king Constantine III, and first cousin of his successor Malcolm II. Kenneth was the last king of Scotland to succeed to the throne through the tanistry system, whereby the succession was shared between two family lines and the dying king named his successor from the other family line. This system led to constant struggle between the ruling families and was abandoned. Kenneth and his son Giric were both killed at Monzievaird, Tayside in 1005. His first cousin Malcolm succeeded him and abolished the tanistry system by killing all of his male descendants. However Kenneth had a granddaughter, Gruoch, via his daughter Boite, whose first husband was Gillacomgain. They had a son called Lulach. She then married King Macbeth I of Scotland (becoming Lady Macbeth). On the death of Macbeth her son via her first marriage, Kenneth III’s great grandson, succeeded to the throne, to become King Lulach of Scotland. According to this history, the blood of Kenneth flows through the royal houses of Scotland. Whether Dubh meant black or dark, as in north-African / southern-European, we may never know for sure. But the story captures a curious fact about the Gaels from Gallicia – some were dark and have left many traces in Irish, Welsh and Scots clans
http://www.clans.org.uk/hist_5.html
Too much fuckery in the thread already.
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