Tony Brown's Journal- Why Black Middle-Class Youth Are Behind
- Thread starter Makkonnen
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very good show
some key notes
whites from the same backgrounds financially and the same schools outscore blacks on sat scores by more than 100 points
whites on average read to their children and discuss nature more at preschool age than blacks who place more importance on singing and playing
black youth culture has a negative effect
black children are less skilled than their white counterparts and therefore perform lower due to a number of factors
black middle class families are often first generation middle class compared to whites who may be 5-6 generation middle class
time spent on homework was the same for all 1.5 hours or so and 2 hours for those in advanced courses
fear of ridicule and failure was pointed out as a large part of black children becoming disinterested in school
some key notes
whites from the same backgrounds financially and the same schools outscore blacks on sat scores by more than 100 points
whites on average read to their children and discuss nature more at preschool age than blacks who place more importance on singing and playing
black youth culture has a negative effect
black children are less skilled than their white counterparts and therefore perform lower due to a number of factors
black middle class families are often first generation middle class compared to whites who may be 5-6 generation middle class
time spent on homework was the same for all 1.5 hours or so and 2 hours for those in advanced courses
fear of ridicule and failure was pointed out as a large part of black children becoming disinterested in school
Basically it came out that in the same classrooms our children do poorer due to poor parenting and poor preparation for the academic environment and then when faced with higher levels of teasing and ridicule(starting in the 1st grade) significant barriers form. This along with the cliched truth that black parents only come to school when there is a problem and white parents are there to check up and involved in the PTA etc.
How families discuss things, talk, use ideas and vocabulary also play a heavy part in the lack of preparation are children receive.
Also black students didn't see school as unimportant but began to accept certain copouts as their performance did not improve.
They perceived better prepared whites as being smarter at certain points too.
Black students felt a need to perform well and not embarass their families
Children's attention was also divided amongst different things- time to study/do homework, learn music, watch television etc
Black students watched twice as much television as their white counterparts
Black students were more afraid of being viewed as not intelligent
White students cared less about what others thought of them
We are sending kids to war with no ammo, then wonder why they come home dead. Parents make the difference.
How families discuss things, talk, use ideas and vocabulary also play a heavy part in the lack of preparation are children receive.
Also black students didn't see school as unimportant but began to accept certain copouts as their performance did not improve.
They perceived better prepared whites as being smarter at certain points too.
Black students felt a need to perform well and not embarass their families
Children's attention was also divided amongst different things- time to study/do homework, learn music, watch television etc
Black students watched twice as much television as their white counterparts
Black students were more afraid of being viewed as not intelligent
White students cared less about what others thought of them
We are sending kids to war with no ammo, then wonder why they come home dead. Parents make the difference.
Each of the above raise interesting questions and we could get into an exchange over any one of them -- they are separate points combining in a larger problem (in my opinion).Makkonnen said:
I agree 100% but -- Where have we heard the same thing, just recently ??? I don't want to start that debate in this thread as there are enough threads already dedicated to the worthless point - but its important that we know these things, lest there's even less we can do about them.
QueEx
My memory is not catching the recent thread hitting on that point although parenting comes up all the time around here.
We have to reshape our culture in order to save our children. Its not as hard as some people think, the difficulty arises when facing opposition from groups that are encouraged and sustained by our general apathy.
We have to reshape our culture in order to save our children. Its not as hard as some people think, the difficulty arises when facing opposition from groups that are encouraged and sustained by our general apathy.
Imagine how low it might be if we compared them to asian children
instead of white
One thing about those numbers is that there are the median. Usually
the children either study for hours, or don't study at all. That's been
my experience. So the median lands somewhere in between
Agree the The TB Journal is some great info. He used to have a regular
spot on PBS, but now it can come on anytime
I would think TB has a website though. Any info on that?
instead of white
One thing about those numbers is that there are the median. Usually
the children either study for hours, or don't study at all. That's been
my experience. So the median lands somewhere in between
Agree the The TB Journal is some great info. He used to have a regular
spot on PBS, but now it can come on anytime
I would think TB has a website though. Any info on that?
I never found fault with what Cosby's message was, it was the presentation. And I always made the point of saying that if he followed through with some type of action then I'd really have no problem with it(except for the stereotype laden rants "dont name your kids ..."etc). He did follow through with some type of action so he stepped up.QueEx said:
I don't think anyone who disagreed with Cosby said we should be poor parents. But I do see why you refrained from directly mentioning it.
We need a direct assault on the bullshit culture that has imposed itself/been imposed on us. That is why I often attack our supposed leadership. There comes a time when we must step up ourselves to try to do what needs doing though.
http://www.tonybrownsites.com/tonybrown/RunawaySlave said:
it comes on the same time the same day here in atlanta.
the study times arent medians. They are actual study hours by students in Ann Arbor,Michigan and another locale. The brother from Harvard who was the guest, wasn't bullshitting with the data.
I understand your point and how that is the case for many.
Goddam, Mak. Real talk. I as well as many of the brothers on this board have been saying this for years, often to no avail. I have been through drama at home and caught MAD heat from most of my berthren that I stay, and one of the MAIN reasons is that my kids have much more resources with us being together rather than apart. Big ups on this post.
Makkonnen said:
Yeah, it isn't scheduled here until April 13 on WNET
The other primary PBS station is WLIW (Long Island)
and it isn't scheduled there at all....
I remember TBJ used to come on 3 or 4 times per
week 10 years ago.
His website is a little dated. Kind of surprising for a
cat like Brown. He must have another one somewhere
tb's website hasnt changed in a long time- the pic links are dead and the site seems totally dormant. Tony is getting on in years and is busy so I dont know the deal. He used to be on the radio in NY too but Im not sure what happened with that and airamerica.
he has an educational site too with forums but I didnt check whether it was alive
he has an educational site too with forums but I didnt check whether it was alive
These statistics sadden me. Its just because I get so mad when I'm in the hood where my dad's family lives, and all the kids I might have played sports with or went to elementary school with are doing nothing but having kids, slanging, or sitting around doing nothing. Truth be told, I realize that with both of my parents being college graduates and having good jobs, that I was afforded opprotunities other kids weren't. But when you are talking about comparing middle class blacks with middle class whites (assuming that the household income for both groups is the same) and there is still a defecit in performance, then you have to look at parenting and whatnot. My parents divorced or whatever, but they always made sure that my brother and sister and I were first and that we had our asses in school.
Middle class black people (which I consider myself) have the capability to become a dominant group of soicety. They need to take advantage of the advantage that they have over poorer black people, to try and make it where they raise productive citizens who can help poor people out. I'm talking doctors,lawyers,teachers,public safety. People that are respectable human beings. My dad always wanted me to be a basketball star, make millions, that was his dream. Unfortunately, I'm 5'10 and was a better runner than shooter. But he at least understood that his children needed to go to the best schools, live in a safe neighborhood, etc. Some people where he grew up were calling him a sellout for moving his family to a majority white, suburban neighborhood. It wasn't that he wanted his kids to move there because being in a euro-centric enviroment is the only way for survivial. He did it so we could diversify our knowledge of other people and get along with everybody. Black people get caught up in keeping in real and hood, but really where has that got us as a people over the last 100 years. The playing field isn't fair at all, our kids get put in the underfunded schools, and dont have the resources other groups have, but we need to get out of this inferiority complex. Black kids are just as capable if not more than white kids to learn. We need to be teaching children complex math, and science, and multiple languages at a young age.
Middle class black people (which I consider myself) have the capability to become a dominant group of soicety. They need to take advantage of the advantage that they have over poorer black people, to try and make it where they raise productive citizens who can help poor people out. I'm talking doctors,lawyers,teachers,public safety. People that are respectable human beings. My dad always wanted me to be a basketball star, make millions, that was his dream. Unfortunately, I'm 5'10 and was a better runner than shooter. But he at least understood that his children needed to go to the best schools, live in a safe neighborhood, etc. Some people where he grew up were calling him a sellout for moving his family to a majority white, suburban neighborhood. It wasn't that he wanted his kids to move there because being in a euro-centric enviroment is the only way for survivial. He did it so we could diversify our knowledge of other people and get along with everybody. Black people get caught up in keeping in real and hood, but really where has that got us as a people over the last 100 years. The playing field isn't fair at all, our kids get put in the underfunded schools, and dont have the resources other groups have, but we need to get out of this inferiority complex. Black kids are just as capable if not more than white kids to learn. We need to be teaching children complex math, and science, and multiple languages at a young age.
We need our own schools period.
The American school system is not adequate to support the educational needs of the black community and this is obvious. Absent substantial parental input a child in today's school system has to learn how to swim on their own. We gotta change the educational system so that we can raise a generation of good parents then we may be prepared for the white system. Poorly educated parents cannot teach. They do not have the fundamental knowledge to be off significant aide to their children even if they wanted too. A system that relies on significant parental input or a certain level of parental knowledge will fail the black community in our current state. Chastising parents and the behavior of children won't change that.
The American school system is not adequate to support the educational needs of the black community and this is obvious. Absent substantial parental input a child in today's school system has to learn how to swim on their own. We gotta change the educational system so that we can raise a generation of good parents then we may be prepared for the white system. Poorly educated parents cannot teach. They do not have the fundamental knowledge to be off significant aide to their children even if they wanted too. A system that relies on significant parental input or a certain level of parental knowledge will fail the black community in our current state. Chastising parents and the behavior of children won't change that.
10-20 years will not provide 5 or 6 degrees of mutligenerational middle class family foundation and all that goes along with itnittie said:
10-20 years of positive and responsible social engineering could eliminate some of the obstacles such as the current youth culture that holds back our children but I do not see it happening as long as it makes certain people wealthy and our people remain unorganized in regard to moral problems facing us
Another great post Makk. I've been a Tony Brown fan for many years and he always seem to be able to get at the meat of the issue and often times have on great guests. Mostly people we don't get to hear from in the MSP. Was Tony Brown invited to the recent Tavis Smiley conference? Do you know if he has ever been invited?
-VG
-VG
I dont know if TB was invited or not- TB always seems more like Tavis tryin to help people get their message out and not necessarily tryin to be a messenger himself except for his civil rights stuff and programsVegasGuy said:
tavis and tony brown together
i know he's one of tavis' heroes he has to be
Makkonnen said:
Yeah, I basically am surprised because Brown was one of the FIRST
activist minded cats from the early 90's who spoke on using the internet
and computers in general to advance the causes of the black struggle
He was definitely ahead of the curve when it came to having websites
and email and such. While other activists were still using snail mail to
get their messages out to the people
This is good and important information. It's grim but it makes a lot of sense. I even noticed when I spent my first couple of years in community college, Black students rarely spoke up in class or answered questions put to the class. There could be a class full of 28 Blacks and the one or two white students would actively participate. The Black students wouldn't ask questions either when they didn't understand something - but the white ones would.Makkonnen said:
Awhile ago, I had read somewhere that Native American elementary school students don't do too well either. They said it was largely due to their traditional cultural upbringing. Oftentimes children are taught to not speak to an adult unless that adult addresses them directly.
One thing that I have advocated to parents is to treat reading like it is fun. Reading to small children is ESSENTIAL because it shows them how big the world is through books, and thus shows that books are windows to the world. I was blessed that my parents introduced weekly trips to the library as a TREAT on par with going to the movies. Additionally, they kept the house stocked with reading material.
I agree with the assessment from TB's Journal that a lot of it comes down to self-perception. Especially how kids relate to the other students and their teachers - and to the society at large. I missed the show, but I wonder if they factored in how teachers regard Black male students relative to other children...misclassification of kids as slow etc. Have you read Jawanza Kunjufu's books, "Countering the Conspiracy to Destroy Black Boys"?
I read Mr. Kunjufu's book in high school 
the study and project by the brother at harvard is actively working on improving educational problems- in this particular study all the students were in the same classes so they didnt get into whether the teachers were biased or not that I recall - it was more about the students' perspective
this is the brother who was on
[frame]http://ksgfaculty.harvard.edu/Ronald_Ferguson[/frame]
the study and project by the brother at harvard is actively working on improving educational problems- in this particular study all the students were in the same classes so they didnt get into whether the teachers were biased or not that I recall - it was more about the students' perspective
this is the brother who was on
[frame]http://ksgfaculty.harvard.edu/Ronald_Ferguson[/frame]
Makkonnen said:
In twenty years America will be alot darker. People of color will decide how America defines success and when that happens today's numbers won't mean much. I say this because American Culture has always been this country's greatest export so when the culture darkens it's people of color who will capitalize on it. We're seeing it now globalization and demographic shifts here and abroad are making the middle class as we know it a thing of the past.
I am fairly sure that I saw this particular Tony Browns' Journal program a number of months ago and I found it sad that a large part of the problem is attributable to a lack of parental involvement as opposed to a lack of resources or a lack of access to good schools. My wife and I have one child (a 16 year old daughter) who is doing extremely well in a gifted program in a Chicago public school. I feel that I am a very supportive parent, but my daughters success is due mostly to the fact that from a very early age, my wife always made sure that our daughter had materials (including lots of books) and access to programs (most of which were free) that helped enrich her education. My wife always found summer programs (usually free or extremely low cost) to place our daughter in. The programs are there, but you have to take the time to look.
I acknowledge the racism that exists in our society and I also acknowledge that many families face challenges that mine does not. However, I cannot fathom the mentality that we have encountered from parents who think it is enough to just send their children to school and expect that to be enough. My wife has endured criticism from some quarters for not allowing our daughter to "be a child" and enjoy summers off from school and to not be involved in after school and Saturday enrichment programs. As we are now in the process of selecting colleges and taking tests such as the ACT it is interesting to see that we are in a relatively secure position with regard to our daughters academic credentials while a lot of other families are scrambling to address academic deficiencies. Lastly my wife has always offered to share any information that she has, but was usually greeted by disinterest, and while we are both college graduates (as are a number of our friends) we don't have a lot of money.
I acknowledge the racism that exists in our society and I also acknowledge that many families face challenges that mine does not. However, I cannot fathom the mentality that we have encountered from parents who think it is enough to just send their children to school and expect that to be enough. My wife has endured criticism from some quarters for not allowing our daughter to "be a child" and enjoy summers off from school and to not be involved in after school and Saturday enrichment programs. As we are now in the process of selecting colleges and taking tests such as the ACT it is interesting to see that we are in a relatively secure position with regard to our daughters academic credentials while a lot of other families are scrambling to address academic deficiencies. Lastly my wife has always offered to share any information that she has, but was usually greeted by disinterest, and while we are both college graduates (as are a number of our friends) we don't have a lot of money.
That darker America you describe will have latinos at the forefront not us. In case you haven't noticed our population isnt growing like others. In 20 years spainish might replace english. Anyway, you still haven't mad any type of case to expect things to be better for people of african descent in 20 years.nittie said:
Black_Immortal- thank you for your post, its good to hear your experiences.
Makkonnen said:
I think I touched on why Blacks will excel in the next 20yrs maybe I didn't go in depth but is because we create culture not hispanics, who are not a race but a ethnic group. So as the culture darkens Blacks will be thrust to the forefront and unlike in the past when we measured our success by what whites are doing we will be forced to define it ourselves, so it don't matter if spanish replaces english, which will never happen, what will matter is American global corporations in almost every industry will be forced to use Blacks in their businesses. They will have to have black faces because that is what the world will be seeing and hearing representing the U.S.A.
I think you're turning a blind eye to reality. America will be browner - as its getting browner by the day. But I think you grossly overlook what appears to be stark differences between those who are making it browner: African Americans and Hispanics. I agree with Makk that the Hispanic population is growing (no. exploding) faster than our numbers. I think there is good reason, on the one hand, that we're not growing as fast (economic prosperity is often directly affected by the number of mouths to feed) -- although our voting strength is being ... well ... diluted. You can put your head in the sand and pretend, but I don't think its any question that Black people and Hispanics have differences over matters that directly affect any possibility of unity among the groups.nittie said:
African Americans and Hispanics, especially recent immigrants, are fighting over many of the same pieces of the pie -- and a lot less so over white people's pieces, if you know what I mean.
While I don't believe its a white conspiracy for Hispanic numbers to outnumber ours (because as that happens white strength is lessened in the process), nevetheless, unless understandings develop, and soon, severe conflict between African Americans and Hispanics is on the near horizon. The winners will make their own deal, against the losers.
Now, if you respond to this, please direct your comments specifically to points I'm trying to make.
QueEx
Thanks for sharing Bro. What you've described is something I've seen in many successful Black families. Having lots of money has a whole lot less to do with successfully raising and educating children than does parental involvement. I think this is true even for families where the parents themselves are less educated - where they stay involved and do everything they can push theirs into programs and situations that will benefit their children down the road -- as sometimes that simply means trying to get them into the best schools (public or private) available, even though that might mean transportation and other issues. A less educated parent may not be able to help with the homework, but they sure as hell can ensure that it was done and follow-up with the school to be sure all is well.Black_Immortal said:
What everyone has said about reading and providing books for kids is absoltely true. I've done that with all of mine and my latest (hopefully last) model, a second grader, is a prime example. We read to him from day 1. We've got tons of books and he has watched as we and his older siblings read. Today, he reads on 8th grade level and uses so much of his allowance to buy books that I sometimes have to give him extra money to do the things 7 year olds do. Yeah. I'm proud as fuk. lol
QueEx
nittie said:
You touched on what? You haven't made one point that is real or factual. I said latinos not hispanic and I didnt call them a race. Latinos, mostly mexicans, will be the majority and whatever cultural shit you are alluding to has nothing to do with politics or how many people live in America of voting age and what there race is.
You're insane. How will everyone be forced to use Blacks? Damn man can you try to use facts or evidence to back up what you say? So far you are describing a dream world with no basis on current trends or current events.
How does a position of weakness become transformed into a position of strength when the population changes only show a definite sustained weakening into the future????????
this is getting off topic- you have not shown one reason why this education problem will get better soon
Makkonnen said:
Parents do make all the difference...when we have stupid rappers like 50 cent earning some
millinons per year to influence our children with complete and utter garbage..we need to turn that stank off and hit the books with em ourselves 
I didn't say you called them a race and even if you did the point I'm making is still the same. latinos out numbering Blacks won't translate into power for them because the group is too diverse to form any real power. You can argue about politics but political power and money is two entirely different things Blacks will be able to accumulate money and wealth in the future even though we will still be a racial minority because we will be at the fore-front of pop culture and that wealth will trickle down to our communities much faster than it does now.
When you talk about the future you have to have vision not slanted numbers put together by people thats been distracting Blacks for 400yrs. I don't see why you would even want to use those figures as a basis for what Blacks can expect tomorrow unless you are not Black and you want to keep us distracted.
What I'm saying is pretty obvious as the culture darkens White influence will decline and as it does Blacks will advance. In the past America exported a lily White culture that won't be possible 20 yrs from now.
how many white people did it take to control south and central america for 300 years?nittie said:
africa?
why would I want to use real census data and population projections along with real data on black political influence to decide which way our people are headed? hmmm i dont know maybe I would because Im realistic and want realistic analysis of our problems so that any answers to those problems I can think of will also be realistic.
black people have money yes. where does it go? where do they spend it? 40 million black americans will not be playing sports, designing clothes, singing and dancing and making their fortunes that way
You question other people's blackness but the way your rant ignorantly and draw on stereotypes as your foundations for your poorly thought out dreams of the future you sound like a stormfront klansman playing games on the internet.
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