THE WRESTLING THREAD: BROCK LESNAR HAS ENTERED THE CHAT!!!
- Thread starter ArsenalCannon357
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Yeah personally I'm not pro anything I don't even know if I have a problem with the death matches.....its that Nick Cage muthafucka.....like he just does nothing for me.
I don't think that match killed him...if he would've been booked properly it wouldn't have even mattered. I don't know what was going on with him but he wasn't even on TV and hasn't been. That killed him much more than him losing to Goldberg. One match doesn't kill a wrestler...that's all on WWE.
It depends on the wrestler and how they book them.
Sami Zayn can lose 10 matches in a row and still stay over with heat.
The Fiend loses one match against Oldberg and nobody cares about him anymore.
Doesn't help that his character got stale too fast with the Funhouse Stuff going from interesting to eyeroll pretty quickly.
I really want to see what Windham Rotunda does outside of the WWE umbrella. Let's see if he really is a creative genius or if it was him benefiting from having the WWE marketing machine behind him.
Imagine being booked as this unstoppable monster and then get squashed by a 53-year-old man in under 5 mins. How can you be taken serious after that? That's a wrap.
The fans didn't care. Bray was still over and one of the biggest acts they had. Most people realized it was shitty booking by the WWE than it was Bray.
If they would've booked Bray properly that match wouldn't have mattered. People talking about Goldberg......shit are we going to forget he was just on Mania and got beat by Randy Orton in a shitty match and let Alexa get the best of him? That shit did far worse for his character than losing to Goldberg....
I can see his character getting stale but we know what that's about. That wasn't because of him losing to Goldberg.
And yeah if he's truly the creative genius that people say then he's going to be a nice cash grab for someone especially if he's really selling merchandise like that.
This one really doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't see Braun or AB getting cut but you could probably make some sense of it since WWE didn't know what to do with them anyway. And you could argue that WWE has no idea what to do with Bray.....he sold merchandise well, one of the few "dark" characters they have, seemed like their "new" Taker.
For a budget cut....seems like it would make more sense to cut 3 wrestlers from NXT that you not using than to get rid of him.
Yeah, it kills your momentum when you went from making people cower into a corner and being able to eat multiple finishers in a match to taking one spear from Goldberg and a suplex that was supposed to be a Jackhammer and losing.
That's like Deebo after getting knocked out by Craig. Everybody was scared of Deebo the whole movie. Then after he's been knocked out, ain't nobody scared of Deebo no more. Ain't nobody sweatin' Deebo no more because they can just be like "FOH Deebo, I'll call Craig over here, he'll knock yo ass out in 5 minutes."
That's what happened to Bray.
No, the fans care about that shit. They still hope for decent booking because WWE is capable of it, it's just that they won't.
Yes, they will still root for him because they like him, but they are aware that not winning big matches hurts the character.
Fans are happy when the booking matches the characters and the storyline.
Dominant characters need to look dominant.
Roman can't be the head of the table if he doesn't win the big matches. Omega can't be the belt collector if he sometimes loses belts.
And whoever beats the dominant character, they should become the next big dominant character.
Nobody wanted the next big guy to be Oldberg. They wanted somebody young and new to beat the Fiend when it's time for him to lose.
Fans were pissed because it was Goldberg's idea to go over in that match and they cancelled the plan to have Bray win. He was very self-serving to think the fans wanted him to be the Fiend slayer.
The fans will be just as pissed if Goldberg beats Bobby because when it's time for Bobby to lose, he should lose the title to Big E or Keith Lee.
But WWE's fucking up by not building them up. That's why Nikki Cross is fucked up now because they put the title on her first and NOW they're trying to build her up, which makes her look like a weak ass champion. She was just happy to be a lumberjack in a men's match like two months ago.
And the Fiend/Orton match was not worse because Bray's character was already weak by that point. The Orton match wasn't bad necessarily because Bray lost (even though he should've won), it was bad because they never followed up on it. They never explained what happened, and nothing came from it. Just Bray's not burnt anymore, Alexa's possessed by evil and Randy's not throwing up oil and cutting promos against himself anymore. The End.
Months of storyline, just dropped. What do you do after that?
When I say the fans don't care I'm saying the fans don't care that Goldberg beat Bray. Bray still would've been over. He's still loved by the fans. If anything it hurt Goldberg more than anyone. So I can't sit here and buy that what hurt Bray is him losing to Goldberg......that hurt their product but it surely didn't hurt Bray. Bray will go to any promotion he wants and be one of their top acts there.
I disagree that the Orton match was bad for the exact reason you said about Goldberg. On no planet at this point in time should Randy be beating Bray Wyatt especially after that long build up.
I would never do it but there was a way to book Bray losing to Goldberg if they wanted to go that route. They did it the worst possible way.
I'm not pro-WWE. I think their product sucks right now except for a few acts.
AEW just comes off like a super indy show every week and I've never been into the indy stuff.
If CM Punk comes to AEW that will definitely get me more interested in their product, but too much of their stuff comes off as amateurish and outlaw.
At least WWE performers are properly trained, they just have shitty storylines being booked for them.
I'm honestly becoming less and less of a wrestling fan now, especially with AEW and WWE being the only mainstream options.
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Agreed. As with my point about Zayn above, fans don't really care about wins vs losses. They care about the character and The Fiend was a great character fans no longer cared about due to poor booking.
Some wrestlers don't need belts to stay hot. Look at Braun. He was mega over a few years ago before ever getting a belt.
Titles and wins don't make wrestlers. The booking does.
WWE booked The Fiend like crap.
I think you summed up how I feel about this shit....if AEW is the one that's suppose to save all....I'll be honest that shit reminds me of WCW in the bad times...maybe its the fact its on TNT...I don't know what it is or maybe its the Indy show feel like you said.
When I heard the rumors of Daniel Bryan and Punk going there I was hoping that maybe this is what makes it feel...more official. Nothing against the indy scene its just not might cup of tea at this point.
100% agree...if anyone else had booked Goldberg to beat Bray or for Bray to lose to Orton....the fan in me would be anticipated to see well damn what will they do after that....but knowing how they book and how they've been booking him....I should've known it wouldn't have resulted in anything.
I look at that WWE product now and I wonder what's even left? Yeah Bobby and MVP are cool but they even feel tarnished since they fucked up the Hurt Business....why? Nobody knows.
At this point when WWE fucks something up you just have to assume that Vince did it on purpose...Hurt Business should have all them titles RIGHT NOW.
I personally love the indy vibe that AEW has. I don't consider "being indy" negative at all. That's where your future stars come from. That's where in-ring innovation comes from. All "being mainstream" really teaches you to do is how to work for tv but all the fundamentals of who you are as a wrestler you learn on the indy scene. Guys like Darby , Jungle Boy, Orange Cassidy, MJF, all came to AEW fresh off the indy scene and now they're the top ratings draws and merch sellers in the company.
There's no such thing as "properly trained" because everybody is trained differently based on their promotion. Luchadores are trained different than America wrestlers. American wrestlers are trained different than Japanese wrestlers and so forth.
Nothing wrong with that. You like what you like.
AEW is pushing Indy wrestling nobodies as main event talent. I think the reason they signed so much old WWE talent is because they realized they have too many Indy performers and not enough trained TV ready stars. Their product comes off as Indy promotion with a big budget. Their on screen production (TV crew) does a shitty job with live TV. I notice so many botches in the ring and through the camera because they are shitty at TV production.
Outlaw is a perfect description for them. I want to like them but lose interest in their product because I don’t care about anyone there, plus their announce team is the drizzling shits. Even JR is at the point of just cashing a check.
Omega, Young Bucks, Adam Page, Pac, Moxley, Jericho aren't indy wrestling nobodies. Those are the main event players in AEW.
They didn't realize anything. You always sign the established names to give the rub to the younger upcoming talent. It's the reason why Darby, Jungle Boy, Orange Cassidy, Britt Baker, MJF are top ratings draws and merch sellers.
That's everywhere brother. WWE, AEW, Impact, NWA, AAA, NJPW, you name it. There's a YouTube channel I don't know if it's still around but it's called botchamaina and over half the botch clips come from WWE. In reality everyone botches no matter the promotion.
Their announce team is no worse than WWE, NWA, Impact, ROH. I'll take Excalibur any day of the week over Michael Cole. Probably the best in the business is Don Callis but unfortunately he's wrapped up in a manager role with Omega. Hopefully after JR's contract runs out they hire Callis to take over.
Y'all shittin' on indie wrestlers like half of WWE's roster isn't made up of indie wrestlers and ROH guys.
Owens, Sami, Keith Lee, Riddle, Ricochet, Adam Cole, Cesaro were wrestling in the same companies and at the same time as The Young Bucks, Brian Cage, Colt Cabana, Kenny Omega, The Lucha Bros, Cassidy, Eddie Kingston.
Owens, Sami, Keith Lee, Riddle, Ricochet, Adam Cole, Cesaro were wrestling in the same companies and at the same time as The Young Bucks, Brian Cage, Colt Cabana, Kenny Omega, The Lucha Bros, Cassidy, Eddie Kingston.
Botchamania just dropped one today. WWE's on there just as much as AEW, but people don't wanna talk about when WWE fuck shit up, tho.
thats the problem
Indy wrestlers for the most part have ceilings in the WWE...on your list the most sucessful is proably Owens. Seth is the most successful 'Indy' wresteler on the roster overall. But Vince has his guys and his types. It really took generational talents like DB & Punk to break the mold. But otherwise Vince sticks to his tried and true forumla. Its the reason why so many successful wrestlers on NXT have floundered while others who were afterthoughts I have excelled (they fit the WWE mold) and Vince is always digging the crates for main events at PPVs. The question will this formula be sustainable 5 to 10 years from now. Eventually the Rocks, Stone Colds, Cenas, Goldbergs, Brocks & Edges will become the Hogans, Flairs, HBKs, Brett & Undertakers that can show up for a cheap pop but cant wrestle. Who will be the new Cena, Rock or Stone Cold...WWE better hope Reigns doesnt follow the Rock & Cena into Hollywood because the cupboard is looking bare for Vince types longterm.
Like the ONLY difference between Joey Janela and Seth Rollins is a "look"! Unless you have had a family member in WWE you go through the indy's and work to get to WWE.
It's the indy wrestling presentation I'm shitting on.
AEW is an indy wrestling promotion with a budget.
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Of course WWE is full of botches, my criticism was more on the AEW production team doing a shitty job in producing wrestling matches.
It happened at WrestleMania, they couldn't get any of the old guys except Edge.
It also doesn't help that 6 people who were on WM don't even work there anymore.
It will get to a point where they won't have a choice but to put those guys I named over, or they will go join their friends in AEW.
Vince's way won't be sustainable, but I'd wager Vince thinks he'll sell the company or kick the bucket by the time that happens again.
What specifically about the presentation makes it feel indy to you?
The mishandling of the Undisputed Era has been criminal. Does anybody care about ANY one from there anymore?
To me the main thing with AEW are the weak storylines and lack of explanation when new guys show up.
It's too much "catering to the marks" and it's always on some "if you know, you know" type shit. Not everyone knows these indy guys already.
On indy shows you don't have to worry about long-term storytelling since it's usually just a one-off show.
It's good enough to just have the matches at an indy show without much of a storyline. That doesn't work for a weekly TV show.
If you want to grow your audience, you need to do more than just cater to the people who already fans and will watch no matter what.
I know they've pulled in 1m+ for the past couple of weeks and they've been patting themselves on the back over that, but that's still down from where they started when Dynamite first aired.
It's easy to just match up guys and put them in a match together, it's harder to tell a good story of how they got there.
Too many clearly visible pre-planned spots. I swear there's an outside dive in every match.
And this isn't about "but WWE does it too". Like them or not, WWE is established and isn't going anywhere.
AEW is still trying to establish itself for the long haul and become legitimate competition to the WWE.
Right now they're not, as much as people want them to be. Vince himself said recently he doesn't consider them to be legit competition.
Maybe he'll eat his words in a few years and I want AEW to be legit competition so the wrestling product overall can be better like it was in the 90s.
AEW has good young talent like Adam Page, Omega (although he can't cut a serious promo to save his life), Sammy Guevara, etc. but too many times they're put in stupid storylines and made to look like goofy cartoon characters. Something we've all complained that WWE does.
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he need to bounce
he is DOA on on the main roster at his height and unless he want to be NXT lifer like Champia or Garango
The business got to get back into building characters again. I can't stress creative control enough. Also the business needs less corporate and less corny bumpkin types writing the storylines.
You said it better than I could have ever explained it. I cosign everything you typed, especially the "catering to the marks" stuff.
To answer a point made earlier regarding AEW'S stars, and how they are elevating midcard indy guys to that main event spotlight, your "catering to the marks" sentiment is the reason why I made that comment earlier.
TNT is a mainstream cable network. AEW doesn't have mainstream TV wrestling stars outside of WWE castoffs.
Kenny Omega is huge star in wrestling circles.
Ask casual wrestling fans or non wrestling audiences about Kenny Omega and they'll probably think "Omega" is the South Park character's last name.
AEWs signing of WWE castoffs is as much of them trying to legitimize their brand as it is more than anything else. That's why they brought in Jericho originally. That's why they signed all those old WWE background names.
When you have Indy wrestling darlings with no TV experience running the company, the TV product will suffer.
Yes, they have been able to maintain some loyalty from their original supporters but AEW is banking on trying to grow their audience using old WWE names to improve their product and hold onto that Indy wrestling vibe.
Something is going to have to give.
They always tried to be an alternative to WWE but they are basically rehashing and redoing shit WWE did.
Champia asked to stay in NXT because it would extend his career. But yeah I agree he needs to leave. His GF is in AEW and he has history with The Elite getting kicked from the bullet club.