Survival of the Fittest
- Thread starter QueEx
- Start date
Good article. I hadn't seen this as Social Darwinism, but there are several parallels. All of the "bootstrap" and "personal responsibility" sentiment sounds good, but does it really work, or is it a myth that you can really become wealthy and well-off completely on your own without some type of government aid?
I'm angy that the rebuilding effort won't include a means to improve the socioeconomic status of those who lost their homes. It sounds like Halliburton is gonna go in, fix everything using the money from Congress, leave with the money, and the people will (or won't) return to their "normal" situations. That doesn't make any sense. They need to create opportunities for those who lost everything, and that doesn't mean just rebuilding and returning to "normalcy" it's rebuilding the buildings and improving the economic situation.
I'm angy that the rebuilding effort won't include a means to improve the socioeconomic status of those who lost their homes. It sounds like Halliburton is gonna go in, fix everything using the money from Congress, leave with the money, and the people will (or won't) return to their "normal" situations. That doesn't make any sense. They need to create opportunities for those who lost everything, and that doesn't mean just rebuilding and returning to "normalcy" it's rebuilding the buildings and improving the economic situation.
great post.
i dont think many expect or want a reduction in social darwinism in america.
survivors are all over the news, not looking for long term handouts, but instead saying over and over they want a job so they can take care of themselves.
most blacks in other parts of the country arent asking for the government to do everything for louisiana blacks, but instead are planning how can they take advantage of the system and take part in the economic rebulding themselves.
america's social darwinism strikes a good balance between the short and long term. people give and accept charity in the short term, but not many are in denial about depending on self determination when it comes to their long term well-being.
i dont think many expect or want a reduction in social darwinism in america.
survivors are all over the news, not looking for long term handouts, but instead saying over and over they want a job so they can take care of themselves.
most blacks in other parts of the country arent asking for the government to do everything for louisiana blacks, but instead are planning how can they take advantage of the system and take part in the economic rebulding themselves.
america's social darwinism strikes a good balance between the short and long term. people give and accept charity in the short term, but not many are in denial about depending on self determination when it comes to their long term well-being.
I would say it's a myth, aquiring wealth has more to do with breeding than anything an individual does, if you are born in a environment where success is expected of you the more likely you are to accomplish it. Another myth is becoming wealthy without government aid, the government has and will always play a part in aquiring a big fortune. Everyone from J.D. Rockerfeller to Sam Walton had some government assistance, a person can make a good living even become a millionaire without the government but the chances of doing it are very slim.
But doesn't this beg the question- is this because the government has insinuated itself too much into the business atmosphere ? or because without government, accumulation of wealth is impossible ?
It could beg the question but I don't think so if the concept of wealth accumulation is a myth to begin with. If it is a myth the objective should be to get the truth, I know from experience that there is a correlation between government help and wealth accumulation. In my business dealings the more help I had the more success I attained, if Blacks keep laboring under the misconception of pulling ones' self up by the bootstraps we will never get any real money. How can anyone compete when halliburton gets no-bid contracts or the airlines get govt. bailouts?
Man, "Bootstraps" means both, governmental assistance and non-governmental assistance. But most of all, picking oneself up by the bootstraps means "Self Assistance" ... taking responsibility to change one's condition through what ever legal means necessary. At least, thats what I was taught -- and what I teach my own.nittie said:
While the quest may be to become wealthy; the goal must be to at least live comfortably -- comfortably being a term for each to define for himself.
QueEx
QueEx said:
That's were the problem comes in... definitions. Bootstraps for us means don't remind whites of what they did.. "Pick yourself up and let us off the muthafucking hook" that's bullshit, in the real world there ain't no excuses and you pay for your gotdamn mistakes. If you want a idea of how government decides who gets rich and who don't remember the Constitution was written to protect the interest of rich white men. Self assistance for us and this is just my opinion, means finding the truth. If we keep doing as we did in the past we will keep getting the same results and obivously that don't work.
Obviously, we have different definitions, I don't know who "US" is -- and I don't see where my understanding of the term has anything to do with reminding or not reminding whites of anything. Its real simple, take responsibility for self -- despite the circumstances. I see us having gotten away from the concept and maybe that has something to do with our lack of general success ??
QueEx
QueEx
I went to a seminar where J. Owens Smith spoke on that phrase "Picking ourselves up by our bootstraps" and he broke it down. Basicallly, you can't pick yourself up by your bootstraps without having bootstraps to begin with. He explained that Bootstraps are education, and the knowhow to get into the economic mainstream. Much of this is provided by governmental programs that are necessary to provide means for economic growth.
Part of the problem is that the U.S. is forgetful when it comes to providing bootstraps, those same bootstraps that were given to every other group of immigrants that came here, and were provided until those groups entered the economic mainstream. When it comes to us, we have Affirmative Action, but that has not been as full-scale and helpful as it should have, and now it's being stripped down because the same people that got the New Deal and the Homestead Act, and GI Bill are saying we need to get our own bootstraps.
Part of the problem is that the U.S. is forgetful when it comes to providing bootstraps, those same bootstraps that were given to every other group of immigrants that came here, and were provided until those groups entered the economic mainstream. When it comes to us, we have Affirmative Action, but that has not been as full-scale and helpful as it should have, and now it's being stripped down because the same people that got the New Deal and the Homestead Act, and GI Bill are saying we need to get our own bootstraps.
Bruh, I don't want to get into another of those senseless arguments with you, but you seem to be talking more out of frustration than anything else. This may be an unpopular statement but our problem is less, as a people, running into the glass ceiling than the bottom rung roaming about in nowhere.nittie said:
Those who move up the corporate/business ladder have one set of problems, moving on up (they aren't really falling into poverty as you say); but US at the bottom rungs of the ladder (thats where the majority of US are) don't have that problem. The lower rungs haven't and aren't doing all the things we were taught to do. We were taught FAMILY -- but that doesn't seem to be a real priority with many at that lower rung. We were taught "Self Reliance" but that seems less of a priority.
We can blame others for our plight and a lot of that blame is well placed. But we are responsible for US and the mistakes we've made and the effort we haven't made are OURS. Taking responsibility for US and SELF RELIANCE are not just noble concepts -- THEY ARE OuR RESPONSIBILITY. If we don't take care of self, nobody else will. If we're not responsible for us, who is: white folks ??? Please.
QueEx
Vit, I respect your thoughts a lot. Owens is right when he talks about education and about ones "Will" to get into the mainstream. On the other hand, he is cheating words when he says "you can't pick yourself up by your bootstraps without having bootstraps to begin with." Bootstraps are nothing ... or relatively nothing. Boothstraps are about striving to obtain an education. You don't have it before you get it. Bootstraps are about striving for more -- you don't have more when you have less. Its trying to get THERE.vitrifier said:
Its young mothers and fathers foregoing babies (as beautiful as they are) to improve where you are. Its foregoing bling, to improve where you are -- unless bling and babies are where you want to be -- and its evident where that gets the most of US. Its about us being good mothers and fathers encouraging and pushing our young to be everything they have the potential to be. If Owens means that education (for most - but not for all) is a way into the mainstream, I agree. But you don't have education before you get it, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps to obtain it (and other things) must be a priority.
If you mean bootstraps are something the "government" gives, then I think you are wrong. In my estimation, bootstraps comes from within -- not from without. You don't have to give a man anything for him to want something. Even if you give him something, it means nothing if he doesn't want to preserve it. Either way, it has to be within him to want and to preserve. Thems bootstraps. I think its the responsibility of government to help, but it lies within a man to pursue, with or without help.
I have no argument what that statement.
QueEx
I don't want to get into another senseless arguement either but how can me, vit and mr. smith all be wrong and you be right without anything but your opinion to back your arguement up? I can give brothas the url to my website, give them their own franchise and show them how they can make 50 grand next year but I can't do it if they refuse to see the obvious which is what I think you are doing now.
Survival of the richest is the American way.
I guess business isn't part of society when it comes to social darwinism.
No shortage of corporate welfare programs. Funny how not many seem to argue against both forms of welfare or for both.
Having done all to stand, if a person of color is knocked down by prejudice then we can mention our "plight".
The difference between slave and master is mind and means. The master tries by any and all ways to keep the mindset and means of freedom away from his slaves.
There are a finite amount of resources on this globe. The powerful will never willingly hand over any part of their resources to those without. The rest is cat and mouse bullshit.
I guess business isn't part of society when it comes to social darwinism.
No shortage of corporate welfare programs. Funny how not many seem to argue against both forms of welfare or for both.
Having done all to stand, if a person of color is knocked down by prejudice then we can mention our "plight".
The difference between slave and master is mind and means. The master tries by any and all ways to keep the mindset and means of freedom away from his slaves.
There are a finite amount of resources on this globe. The powerful will never willingly hand over any part of their resources to those without. The rest is cat and mouse bullshit.
Someone once told me "No one ever takes care of your shit like you do."
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Que,
I disagree with the idea that "bootstraps" are from within, but I do agree that part of what is lacking is our (collective) will to strive for more than the status quo. I see it all too often working with kids around my area. I ask them "how did you do on that test" and they think "passing" is good. For whatever reason, they don't strive to excel, just get by. I don't know why, maybe it's just the kids I work with. I was probably the same way, but really the only reason I worked hard in school was if I brought home anything besides an "A" I would get lectured and bitched at for weeks and weeks. Not to blame it all on the parents, I still believe that teachers and counselors need to pick up where the parents fall short, and maybe that's not what happens. I hear it too often from teachers I know "It's not my job... it's the parents job..." but it is their job to teach, regardless of what the family situation is at home.
I still think the gov't should provide means to achieve (as in education and training programs for those who can use it, and protection of workers rights) but they won't get us anywhere unless that drive is present.
I disagree with the idea that "bootstraps" are from within, but I do agree that part of what is lacking is our (collective) will to strive for more than the status quo. I see it all too often working with kids around my area. I ask them "how did you do on that test" and they think "passing" is good. For whatever reason, they don't strive to excel, just get by. I don't know why, maybe it's just the kids I work with. I was probably the same way, but really the only reason I worked hard in school was if I brought home anything besides an "A" I would get lectured and bitched at for weeks and weeks. Not to blame it all on the parents, I still believe that teachers and counselors need to pick up where the parents fall short, and maybe that's not what happens. I hear it too often from teachers I know "It's not my job... it's the parents job..." but it is their job to teach, regardless of what the family situation is at home.
I still think the gov't should provide means to achieve (as in education and training programs for those who can use it, and protection of workers rights) but they won't get us anywhere unless that drive is present.
QueEx said:
Basically they should have the same opinion as me when it comes to making money. I'm in the clothing business and I believe we can beat corporate at their own game if we work together but that's easier said than done for one thing, we cannot work together. lol
Back to the government and wealth, remember before the Civil Rights movement the poverty rate for Blacks was about 70% govt. programs lowered those rates. It's not just Blacks that benefited from govt. either before the New Deal programs 40% of Whites lived in poverty the govt. has always decided who gets paid and who doesn't.
In other words, they're not picking themselves up by their bootstraps -- they're not seizing opportunity and making something out of it. You keep arguing something different ... but you keep making my point. LOLnittie said:
The answer to my question (And what does it take from them within to act) was simply -> self determination ... bootstraps.
QueEx
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Your answer is too simple, if all it took was self determination nobody would be poor. It's about breeding which is determined by birth, that's why fiscal conservatives feel they have a birthright to power because no one can determine which family they are born into so it has to be a Godly decision.
I never said nor do I believe that ALL it takes is self determination homie. In fact, it takes a whole lot more -- like a good break (which can be chancey as hell). But, it takes self determination to move, to act, to seize opportunity.
That old adage: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink is synonymous with what we've been discussing. There has to be a WILL to take advantage of whatever options that exist.
QueEx
That old adage: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink is synonymous with what we've been discussing. There has to be a WILL to take advantage of whatever options that exist.
QueEx
QueEx said:
Ima agree with you if the opportunity is there it comes down to intangibles like willpower, vision, courage, etc. matter of fact I made this arguement in a couple of threads in the past but I was responding to the question about myths of acquiring wealth and my point was yes it is a myth that wealth can be attained without the govt. it is possible but not likely. By wealth I don't mean a high paying job in corporate america I mean owning corporations and creating jobs and let me add that willpower is instilled in children at a early age so it still comes down to breeding.
Great Discussion.
I always though when people vocalized self-determination as a means of black empowerment it was their way of placating the structural inequalities that exist in America. My major issue with Cosby and most of the black conservatives was not their self-determinism agenda. My issue was the way the focus on that agenda diverted attention from structural inequalities and in many cases attempted to ignore them an place total blame on the poor black community for their current situation.
I see know that it is possible to strive for self-determination within our communities while at the same time fighting to eliminate the structural inequalities that make our journey from poverty more difficult than everyone elses. I think Ques comment "There has to be a WILL to take advantage of whatever options that exist" put it in perspective for me and was much appreaciated.
It seems that the ideas of fighting structural inequalities vs. Self determination has been a major issue between black liberals and conservatives when it does not have to be. I think we all tend to go too far on one side or the other when the answer lies in the middle. We must fight for self determination of our people while working to improve opportunities for our people. The idea that all it takes is self determination or all it takes is the removal of structural barriers are both wrong. One without the other will not work.
Sorry if I sound sappy but when I reach a revelation on a topic that has been bouncing around in my head for a while I get chocked up. But thanks again guys your comments really put this in perspective.
I always though when people vocalized self-determination as a means of black empowerment it was their way of placating the structural inequalities that exist in America. My major issue with Cosby and most of the black conservatives was not their self-determinism agenda. My issue was the way the focus on that agenda diverted attention from structural inequalities and in many cases attempted to ignore them an place total blame on the poor black community for their current situation.
I see know that it is possible to strive for self-determination within our communities while at the same time fighting to eliminate the structural inequalities that make our journey from poverty more difficult than everyone elses. I think Ques comment "There has to be a WILL to take advantage of whatever options that exist" put it in perspective for me and was much appreaciated.
It seems that the ideas of fighting structural inequalities vs. Self determination has been a major issue between black liberals and conservatives when it does not have to be. I think we all tend to go too far on one side or the other when the answer lies in the middle. We must fight for self determination of our people while working to improve opportunities for our people. The idea that all it takes is self determination or all it takes is the removal of structural barriers are both wrong. One without the other will not work.
Sorry if I sound sappy but when I reach a revelation on a topic that has been bouncing around in my head for a while I get chocked up. But thanks again guys your comments really put this in perspective.
Indeed, it is not the strongest but the most adaptable, that will survive...