Ring Magazine Fighters Of The Decade

[kes1111]

Ring Magazine Fighters Of The Decade

1910s: Sam Langford -- Small man beat the best big men of his day. Runner up: Jimmy Wilde.
1920s: Benny Leonard -- Some still say he’s the greatest lightweight ever. Runner up: Harry Greb.
1930s: Henry Armstrong -- Held titles in three weight classes simultaneously. Runner up: Tony Canzoneri.
1940s: Ray Robinson – Untouchable as a welterweight. Runner up: Willie Pep
1950s: Ray Robinson – Also one of the greatest middleweights ever. Runner up: Archie Moore.
1960s: Muhammad Ali – The Greatest really was the greatest at this time. Runner up: Carlos Ortiz.
1970s: Roberto Duran – Virtually untouchable as a lightweight. Runner up: Carlos Monzon.
1980s: Ray Leonard: His victories over Duran, Hearns and Hagler were epic. Runner up: Julio Cesar Chavez.
1990s: Roy Jones Jr. – At his best, he inspired awe. Runner up: Pernell Whitaker.
2000s: Manny Pacquiao – Sorry Floyd but you need to fight the best to be the best. Runner up: Floyd Mayweather.

 

[kes1111]

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Manny Pacquiao?

FOH!

 

[Alaskanredman]

Manny Pacquiao?

FOH!

Floyd made his biggest mistake by beating Corrales so bad because it fucked up boxing journalists heads... they haven't been able to wrap their minds around dude ever since.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Manny Pacquiao?

FOH!

Floyd made his biggest mistake by beating Corrales so bad because it fucked up boxing journalists heads... they haven't been able to wrap their minds around dude ever since.

 

[Zeferino]

Manny Pacquiao?

FOH!

Who do you think it should be?

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

Floyd made his biggest mistake by beating Corrales so bad because it fucked up boxing journalists heads... they haven't been able to wrap their minds around dude ever since.

Sad thing is bro, you had to go ALL THE WAY BACK 10 plus years to find a noteworthy Mayweather fight to reference (when he fought a real challenge in their prime)...

One fight does not a decade make homie!

 

[Zeferino]

Sad thing is bro, you had to go ALL THE WAY BACK 10 plus years to find a noteworthy Mayweather fight to reference (when he fought a real challenge in their prime)...

One fight does not a decade make homie!

Damn, it's been that long. After Corrales and Castillo, it's like Floyd said "fuck challenges".

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

Damn, it's been that long. After Corrales and Castillo, it's like Floyd said "fuck challenges".

Not that I'm a Manny apologist because his ass is on some bullshit too, but at least he took SOME Challenges...

Floyds biggest wins:

Past Their Prime:
Delahoya, Mosley, Gatti...

The list:

Brusseles, N'dou, Zab (After he lost), Baldomir (Might get a psuedo pass on this one), Ortiz, and a damaged ass Cotto

Biggest Wins:
Castillo (whom he lost to the first fight), Corley, Sosa, Hatton, Marquez

Yep, this definitely is a murders row of challengers, and it really does create a sound argument for fighter of the decade...

 

[merce77]

Not that I'm a Manny apologist because his ass is on some bullshit too, but at least he took SOME Challenges...

Floyds biggest wins:

Past Their Prime:
Delahoya, Mosley, Gatti...

The list:

Brusseles, N'dou, Zab (After he lost), Baldomir (Might get a psuedo pass on this one), Ortiz, and a damaged ass Cotto

Biggest Wins:
Castillo (whom he lost to the first fight), Corley, Sosa, Hatton, Marquez

Yep, this definitely is a murders row of challengers, and it really does create a sound argument for fighter of the decade...

Cotto was NOT damaged goods. Dude was built back up and fought at a healthy weight. Why did Manny make Cotto drop down and then refuse to fight him at 154 but will fight Margarito at 154. I don't think either one of them deserved FOTD btw. But Manny did take on a triumvirate of greatness in Morales, Barrera and Marquez. I love Floyd but I always said his record was lacking. I think that has to do more with the era than anything else though. BUT Manny used much more trickery and fuckery in order to look great.

 

[Zeferino]

Cotto was NOT damaged goods. Dude was built back up and fought at a healthy weight. Why did Manny make Cotto drop down and then refuse to fight him at 154 but will fight Margarito at 154. I don't think either one of them deserved FOTD btw. But Manny did take on a triumvirate of greatness in Morales, Barrera and Marquez. I love Floyd but I always said his record was lacking. I think that has to do more with the era than anything else though. BUT Manny used much more trickery and fuckery in order to look great.

I agree Cotto was NOT damaged goods and I'm shocked because I thought he was done after the Margarito loss. Still, the bottom line is Mayweather did feast on a guy that already got brutalized by two of the biggest punchers in the game. The Cotto that fought Mayweather was good but on paper it looks whack. Kind of like when he fought Zab Judah immediately after Judah lost and almost got knocked out by a bum, Baldomir.

To argue that Cotto was weight drained(He only weighed 1 pound less than he did in his previous fight) against Pacquiao is just as lame as trying to say he was better than the Cotto that Pacquiao and Margarito fought.

 

[merce77]

I agree Cotto was NOT damaged goods and I'm shocked because I thought he was done after the Margarito loss. Still, the bottom line is Mayweather did feast on a guy that already got brutalized by two of the biggest punchers in the game. The Cotto that fought Mayweather was good but on paper it looks whack. Kind of like when he fought Zab Judah immediately after Judah lost and almost got knocked out by a bum, Baldomir.

To argue that Cotto was weight drained(He only weighed 1 pound less than he did in his previous fight) against Pacquiao is just as lame as trying to say he was better than the Cotto that Pacquiao and Margarito fought.

Then why won't Pac fight him at 154 like he did Margarito who is supposedly a bigger puncher than Cotto? They again want Cotto to come down to 147. They are BOTH guilty of fuckery and to tell you the truth I really could care less about boxing right now. We need some NEW blood.

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

Then why won't Pac fight him at 154 like he did Margarito who is supposedly a bigger puncher than Cotto? They again want Cotto to come down to 147. They are BOTH guilty of fuckery and to tell you the truth I really could care less about boxing right now. We need some NEW blood.

Dude, I won't even get into a back and forth about ONE common fighter between the two... Point is, Barerra and Morales, both of whom were fought in or very near their primes, as well as the fights with Marquez... In terms of quality of fighters at the given stages of their careers trumps ANY of the fighters Floyd fought, outside of his impressive win against Corrales, and it makes the comparative assessment of Manny vs Floyd for fighter of the year a moot point!!

You want to focus on Cotto, which is what normally happens when a PBF boxing discussion surfaces, and totally avoid all the other garbage he's fought over the last 10 plus years...

If you want to focus on Cotto, have at it... I'm not biting on that shit this time!!!



And we do have some new blood, I agree with you, I don't give a single fuck about either of those two at this point, will not be watching any of their fights unless they fight each other, but, boxing has for damn sure moved on with Andre Ward, Floyd 2.0 Broner, a couple at Middleweight, etc. Boxing is cool, fuck those two prima donnas...

 

[Alaskanredman]

Sad thing is bro, you had to go ALL THE WAY BACK 10 plus years to find a noteworthy Mayweather fight to reference (when he fought a real challenge in their prime)...

One fight does not a decade make homie!

Totally missed my point. Corrales was supposed to be a challenge at the time and it wasn't even just one sided... it was the destruction of fighter. Even though, now niggas dissect every joint after the fact to act as if there was never a "challenge". Which is why I was saying ever since then no opponent has been given their just due nor has the motherfucker been given his credit. Every flaw is magnified to a point of ridiculousness so every fighter is "damaged goods" when facing Floyd. They want Floyd to fight the perfect fighter every fight to challenge his skills, but there are no "perfect fighters" and this requirement isn't asked of any other fighter... especially Pac.

Same niggas, same shit... reason why I'm not interested in boxing discussions on here anymore.

 

[durham]

damn I don't really fuck with Mayweather like that, but Manny beat all the people Mayweather already fucked up for the most part and has lost MULTIPLE fights in which he somehow magically gained questionable draws or wins in certain case...and bad decision of not he lost to a wack as broke foot fighter...yet he is the fighter of the decade?

never seen an undefeated fighter so no respected

and the 90's...Jones is my favorite, but damn the same shit they are claiming Mayweather did, Roy was probably worse

shit Roy would not fight Hopkins regardless....

and no Lennox Lewis?

 

[Zei]

Really? No lewis tho...and no mention of tyson. Cant front dude was a beast

 

[Zeferino]

Then why won't Pac fight him at 154 like he did Margarito who is supposedly a bigger puncher than Cotto? They again want Cotto to come down to 147. They are BOTH guilty of fuckery and to tell you the truth I really could care less about boxing right now. We need some NEW blood.

Yeah, but the scenario at 154 is a different topic. I agree that Cotto has the leverage as the champ at 154 if he doesn't want the limit to be anything less than 154. Pacquiao has the leverage in the sense that he won the first fight and Cotto is the one with something to prove. Anyway, as usual in boxing, all this stuff is negotiated by the fighters. My point was about their first fight and the notion that Cotto was weight drained for weighing a pound less than he did in his fight prior to Pacquiao. There was absolutely no indication that Cotto was affected by any weight issues. Cotto had even fought successfully at the same weight against prior opponents and there were never any rumors of weight problems. The last time Cotto ever spoke of being weak from making weight was back when he was trying to make 140.

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

Totally missed my point. Corrales was supposed to be a challenge at the time and it wasn't even just one sided... it was the destruction of fighter. Even though, now niggas dissect every joint after the fact to act as if there was never a "challenge". Which is why I was saying ever since then no opponent has been given their just due nor has the motherfucker been given his credit. Every flaw is magnified to a point of ridiculousness so every fighter is "damaged goods" when facing Floyd. They want Floyd to fight the perfect fighter every fight to challenge his skills, but there are no "perfect fighters" and this requirement isn't asked of any other fighter... especially Pac.

Same niggas, same shit... reason why I'm not interested in boxing discussions on here anymore.

This is basically an apologist statement Dude. When you are gauging a fighter of the decade decision, those factors are weighed? Shit if that was the case, Brian Nielsen would be considered an all time great!!! Sure, he went undefeated, but that is not the only consideration, and for a boxing purest, a fighter who took on more challenges, and may have lost once or twice, would be given more credence than a fighter who went undefeated but took less risks. You can't fatten your record against the N'Dou's, Brusseles', etc. of the world, and then bitch because you aren't respected enough. Like I said, fuck both of them at this point, but if you look at the body of work, Manny fought bigger challenges, at or much closer to their primes than Floyd did. Floyd fought names, but also ran type names, DeLaHoya, Mosely, Cotto, Hatton were a wash between the two of them, but you take Barerra, Morales, and Marquez (the first two fights), they were much greater challenges than any of the 'other' people Floyd fought, except say Corrales and Castillo (but I would still give them a slight nod).

Also, it fucks me up that you guys get so damn emotional whenever someone has a different viewpoint on Floyd than you do... Calm down... No debate on anyone else on the list, but the mention Floyd is not given the heads up, emotions come out. So I guess no one has any differing opinion on the other years, just Floyd right? Fucking ridiculous...

 

[Alaskanredman]

This is basically an apologist statement Dude. When you are gauging a fighter of the decade decision, those factors are weighed? Shit if that was the case, Brian Nielsen would be considered an all time great!!! Sure, he went undefeated, but that is not the only consideration, and for a boxing purest, a fighter who took on more challenges, and may have lost once or twice, would be given more credence than a fighter who went undefeated but took less risks. You can't fatten your record against the N'Dou's, Brusseles', etc. of the world, and then bitch because you aren't respected enough. Like I said, fuck both of them at this point, but if you look at the body of work, Manny fought bigger challenges, at or much closer to their primes than Floyd did. Floyd fought names, but also ran type names, DeLaHoya, Mosely, Cotto, Hatton were a wash between the two of them, but you take Barerra, Morales, and Marquez (the first two fights), they were much greater challenges than any of the 'other' people Floyd fought, except say Corrales and Castillo (but I would still give them a slight nod).

Also, it fucks me up that you guys get so damn emotional whenever someone has a different viewpoint on Floyd than you do... Calm down... No debate on anyone else on the list, but the mention Floyd is not given the heads up, emotions come out. So I guess no one has any differing opinion on the other years, just Floyd right? Fucking ridiculous...

The problem is that you put these guys under the same microscope as Floyd's opponents and it is a different story.

Barerra was considered washed up until he beat Prince Naseem overrated ass which put his career back on track so lets keep it all the way real.

No knock on Morales, but he lost to Barerra in their second & third fight before he got the first fight with Pac and lost Raheem before the second fight with Pac. Do you see a pattern that has now been pointed out many times about Pac? Even with that he beat Pac that first fight which I'll admit was a very close fight but the fact still remains Pac lost. The second fight shouldn't have happened when it did because Pac should have fought Raheem first and then got at Morales. Either way the first two fights cancelled each other out. Many people make the argument that Pac weakened that man on the scales for the third. To me, Morales got beat twice by Barerra, who supposed to be finished, and lost to Raheem... the man was on the road to the end anyways.

Also to keep it all the way real about Marquez, his resume wasn't thick with all time greats before Pac. Yes, he was considered the real thing but let's stop rewriting history here... He was an up and comer that no one thought was one of the greatest boxers until way later. He made his career off that first fight because he got knocked down three times in the first round and in a lot of people's eyes he still won the fucking fight. Many people like myself still can't recognize one lost for Marquez out of those fights which is why they are going to fight again. I'm sorry but getting your ass whooped by a man you put on his ass several fighting times doesn't count towards you being the best fighter.

The biggest difference is that Pac is a highly flawed fighter so he didn't just run through these guys. They were competitive which magnified their accolades and minimized their flaws. Had they been one sided schoolings maybe we wouldn't be giving Pac credit or maybe motherfuckers only put Floyd in that box. All I know is I was on this board years ago saying Shane Mosley was done before, during and after he beat Margarito's punk ass. I was the only motherfucker arguing that Floyd should fight Pac while everyone was saying he should fight a "real" welterweight like Shane because Mosley was a "real challenge". After they fought and it was one sided, then everyone slowly jump ships and completely changed their perspectives of that fight...

It isn't emotions. Its the same shit... every discussion. Their are a different set of rules because Floyd is that good. It always kills me though, because we can acknowledge that he is on a different level and then rank a guy who isn't on his level above him...

Oh, if anyone argued this same logic and put Trinidad, Oscar or who ever over fucking Roy in the 90's motherfuckers would be losing their fucking minds.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Instead of jumping back into the back and forth, let me state my case on Floyd over Manny for Fighter of the Decade for the 2000s (merce doesn't like either one so I'm interested in his pick)

I'm not sure what frame of time RING is using (I should read the article) but the decade starts in 2001 and ends in 2010 (that's how decades are counted 1-10, not 00-09).
From 2001-2002, Manny had a good run at super bantam but that's the same time period Floyd had the Corrales and Castillo fights. Advantage: Mayweather

From 2003-2005 is when Floyd started his journey towards being a star and starts stacking up nice fights but not great ones while Manny was breaking out with his fights against Barrera, Morales, and Marquez (and not proving to be up to the task except against the aging Barrera).
Advantage: Pacquiao

From 2006-2010 has both of them as top fighters in the ring and at the box office but where, in my opinion, Floyd pulls away as Manny's team goes forth to employ all manners of shenanigans for anyone that might be deemed a challenge. Mayweather didn't make weight against Marquez but has fought two top junior middleweight champions, a much bigger, younger champion fighter at welter, and two of the men he was supposed to be "ducking" and all of them since Zab Judah were coming off big victories while Manny seemed to fight a lot of guys coming off losses.
Advantage: Mayweather.

They are BOTH guilty of fuckery and to tell you the truth I really could care less about boxing right now. We need some NEW blood.

The new blood has been showing up lately. I expected Broner to win last week but that shit was a demolition and Keith Thurman put something serious on Carlos Quintana, a veteran who shouldnt be slept on.

 

[merce77]

Instead of jumping back into the back and forth, let me state my case on Floyd over Manny for Fighter of the Decade for the 2000s (merce doesn't like either one so I'm interested in his pick)

I'm not sure what frame of time RING is using (I should read the article) but the decade starts in 2001 and ends in 2010 (that's how decades are counted 1-10, not 00-09).
From 2001-2002, Manny had a good run at super bantam but that's the same time period Floyd had the Corrales and Castillo fights. Advantage: Mayweather

From 2003-2005 is when Floyd started his journey towards being a star and starts stacking up nice fights but not great ones while Manny was breaking out with his fights against Barrera, Morales, and Marquez (and not proving to be up to the task except against the aging Barrera).
Advantage: Pacquiao

From 2006-2010 has both of them as top fighters in the ring and at the box office but where, in my opinion, Floyd pulls away as Manny's team goes forth to employ all manners of shenanigans for anyone that might be deemed a challenge. Mayweather didn't make weight against Marquez but has fought two top junior middleweight champions, a much bigger, younger champion fighter at welter, and two of the men he was supposed to be "ducking" and all of them since Zab Judah were coming off big victories while Manny seemed to fight a lot of guys coming off losses.
Advantage: Mayweather.





The new blood has been showing up lately. I expected Broner to win last week but that shit was a demolition and Keith Thurman put something serious on Carlos Quintana, a veteran who shouldnt be slept on.

While Broner has special skills, it's just like watching Floyd fight, so there's nothing really new there. Dude isn't original, he crafted himself from someone elses template. I like that Thurman kid too though, he may be a serious threat for Canelo down the line. Unless Floyd is going to fight Sergio and unless Manny is going to fight Floyd - I could honestly care less about seeing either of them fight anyone else. What's missing from boxing is that these so called great champions aren't willing to take the really big challenges. Robert Guerrero moved up 2 weight classes and is doing really well at welter yet all anyone talks about is Manny and Floyd, and maybe Donaire who incidentally has no business fighting all these smaller, much older guys. Andre Ward should be the P4P #1 right now - point blank.

 

[Zeferino]

While Broner has special skills, it's just like watching Floyd fight, so there's nothing really new there. Dude isn't original, he crafted himself from someone elses template. I like that Thurman kid too though, he may be a serious threat for Canelo down the line. Unless Floyd is going to fight Sergio and unless Manny is going to fight Floyd - I could honestly care less about seeing either of them fight anyone else. What's missing from boxing is that these so called great champions aren't willing to take the really big challenges. Robert Guerrero moved up 2 weight classes and is doing really well at welter yet all anyone talks about is Manny and Floyd, and maybe Donaire who incidentally has no business fighting all these smaller, much older guys. Andre Ward should be the P4P #1 right now - point blank.

Just because he's fighting Arce, all he does is fight older smaller guys? That's a pretty unfair assessment. All you have to do is go to boxrec. I'm not even going to waste time on that one.
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=48243&cat=boxer

 

[Upgrade Dave]

While Broner has special skills, it's just like watching Floyd fight, so there's nothing really new there. Dude isn't original, he crafted himself from someone elses template.

You already know I'm not a fan of the WAY over the top bravado, especially before he's really beaten anybody but in the ring, I have no problem with Broner after last week. He did look like Floyd but I won't hold that against him if he looks like Floyd when Floyd is on offense. He could have outpointed DeMarco last week but chose to pound him into submission. Now he just needs to stay fighting guys at a higher level.

I like that Thurman kid too though, he may be a serious threat for Canelo down the line. Unless Floyd is going to fight Sergio and unless Manny is going to fight Floyd - I could honestly care less about seeing either of them fight anyone else. What's missing from boxing is that these so called great champions aren't willing to take the really big challenges. Robert Guerrero moved up 2 weight classes and is doing really well at welter yet all anyone talks about is Manny and Floyd, and maybe Donaire who incidentally has no business fighting all these smaller, much older guys. Andre Ward should be the P4P #1 right now - point blank.

That's the truth but that's not on them. I haven't mentioned the Guerrero-Berto fight because I hadn't watched it yet (did you just spoil that for me?) but I was hot to see if anyone else liked Thurman like I did.

There's a case to be made for Ward with only Sergio as a good alternative but Fighter of the Decade is for what they've done in the past, not the present. In my assessment, I didn't mention Manny losing to Tim Bradley because it happened outside the time period.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Catching the fight now and gotdamn, Guerrero was dirty as fuck. I'm two rounds in and I can't believe he's getting away with some of that shit, especially he head holding that led to the first knockdown, and not even being warned. I like all kinds of fighting but not that. There's MMA for guys that want to do that kind of fighting.

edit
Now that it's evening out and Berto is doing some dirty boxing, the ref wants to issue warnings. A bad ref can ruin a fight. These two are still trying to fight and putting on a good display. Guerrero had a good strategy and the ref played right into it.

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

I will say this, Broner will get humbled one day with that over acting, but, he is definitely an elite talent. To take on the fighting style of one of the best to ever do it, and to do it as well as he has so far is no small task... If everyone could employ the style Floyd uses well, we would have a lot more guys trying it. It's definitely not as easy as it seems, notice Berto tried for about 5 mins, and once he got tuned up and dropped he said fuck it and went back to what he was used too...

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

Catching the fight now and gotdamn, Guerrero was dirty as fuck. I'm two rounds in and I can't believe he's getting away with some of that shit, especially he head holding that led to the first knockdown, and not even being warned. I like all kinds of fighting but not that. There's MMA for guys that want to do that kind of fighting.

edit
Now that it's evening out and Berto is doing some dirty boxing, the ref wants to issue warnings. A bad ref can ruin a fight. These two are still trying to fight and putting on a good display. Guerrero had a good strategy and the ref played right into it.

One thing I will say, I remember Sugar Ray Leonard saying after he beat Hagler, the greatest skill he saw from Ali was making someone do what you want them to do, but not letting them realize you are doing it to him, which is what he did to Hagler. Guerrero was dirty as hell, no more dirty than B-Hop made millions being, but, he had both the ref and Berto play in to it, so why not keep it up.

As for Berto, he made a hell of an account of himself, fought with a lot of heart, but, he damn sure looked a lot softer than he did when he was juicing... His cardio was top shelf, but his physique definitely is not as defined as it used to be... His power seemed to have slipped a little too...

 

[Zeferino]

Catching the fight now and gotdamn, Guerrero was dirty as fuck. I'm two rounds in and I can't believe he's getting away with some of that shit, especially he head holding that led to the first knockdown, and not even being warned. I like all kinds of fighting but not that. There's MMA for guys that want to do that kind of fighting.

edit
Now that it's evening out and Berto is doing some dirty boxing, the ref wants to issue warnings. A bad ref can ruin a fight. These two are still trying to fight and putting on a good display. Guerrero had a good strategy and the ref played right into it.

I thought Berto provoked the fouls by the constant holding. Most of Berto's fights are like this, holding and hitting, etc. So, for me I didn't get how the announcers were suggesting he was some sort of victim. He did blatantly hit Guerrero behind the head on several occasions. I may have been missing something because the announcers did seem very sympathetic to Berto.

Aside from that, Berto and his handlers got what they asked for. You know me and the southpaw thing. I've always said Berto just can't deal with southpaws and to my recollection the only guys that take him to hell like this have been southpaws. Berto was enjoying great momentum until they started matching him with southpaws. I think Collazo may have been the first.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

I will say this, Broner will get humbled one day with that over acting, but, he is definitely an elite talent. To take on the fighting style of one of the best to ever do it, and to do it as well as he has so far is no small task... If everyone could employ the style Floyd uses well, we would have a lot more guys trying it. It's definitely not as easy as it seems, notice Berto tried for about 5 mins, and once he got tuned up and dropped he said fuck it and went back to what he was used too...

One thing I will say, I remember Sugar Ray Leonard saying after he beat Hagler, the greatest skill he saw from Ali was making someone do what you want them to do, but not letting them realize you are doing it to him, which is what he did to Hagler. Guerrero was dirty as hell, no more dirty than B-Hop made millions being, but, he had both the ref and Berto play in to it, so why not keep it up.

As for Berto, he made a hell of an account of himself, fought with a lot of heart, but, he damn sure looked a lot softer than he did when he was juicing... His cardio was top shelf, but his physique definitely is not as defined as it used to be... His power seemed to have slipped a little too...

Yep. I've never seen Berto keep his shoulder as high as he had it in the first round.
Guerrero no doubt had the right strategy, as dirty as it was. I put the onus on the ref for doing a horrible job. Then to not separate them after the final bell and let Guerrero get off at least 3 unanswered, unprotected punches could have been dangerous.
Seeing how he performed, giving HBO another potential Fight of the Year, they should continue to reward him with good fights. That's how UFC has managed to stay hot, by giving exciting fighters plenty of tv time.

I thought Berto provoked the fouls by the constant holding. Most of Berto's fights are like this, holding and hitting, etc. So, for me I didn't get how the announcers were suggesting he was some sort of victim. He did blatantly hit Guerrero behind the head on several occasions. I may have been missing something because the announcers did seem very sympathetic to Berto.

Okay, that's not what happened. Guerrero looked to hold and initiated it early to neutralize Berto's superior handspeed.
The announcers were calling it as it was. Guerrero held his head and hit him repeatedly until he fell for both of his knockdowns and set the stage for the rest of the fight.
When Berto hit him behind the head, they were tangled and Guerrero was ducking down. When they were tangled up in the middle of the ring and Berto threw that same punch, it landed on the side of the head.

Aside from that, Berto and his handlers got what they asked for. You know me and the southpaw thing. I've always said Berto just can't deal with southpaws and to my recollection the only guys that take him to hell like this have been southpaws. Berto was enjoying great momentum until they started matching him with southpaws. I think Collazo may have been the first.

No news there. Orthodox fighters can get in trouble with southpaws but you can't become an elite fighter in any division without having to fight some. That's boxing.

 

[tp2001]

Okay, that's not what happened. Guerrero looked to hold and initiated it early to neutralize Berto's superior handspeed.
The announcers were calling it as it was. Guerrero held his head and hit him repeatedly until he fell for both of his knockdowns and set the stage for the rest of the fight.
When Berto hit him behind the head, they were tangled and Guerrero was ducking down. When they were tangled up in the middle of the ring and Berto threw that same punch, it landed on the side of the head.

Man Guerrero committed a lot of fouls in that fight from beginning to end, and the ref didn't question him on it (and yes, that 1st knockdown was illegal) but when Berto tried to do something inside in the first half of the fight then he got warned about it...Not to mention that Guerrero held Berto's left arm in many of those clinches and never let go...I guess Berto shouldn't have taken that fight in Robert's backyard so to speak...

I hope this does not lead to a fight with Floyd for Guerrero like some are saying in those boxing forums. That would not be an attractive matchup at all...Floyd is better off facing Cotto again than fighting this dude

 

[Zeferino]

Yep. I've never seen Berto keep his shoulder as high as he had it in the first round.
Guerrero no doubt had the right strategy, as dirty as it was. I put the onus on the ref for doing a horrible job. Then to not separate them after the final bell and let Guerrero get off at least 3 unanswered, unprotected punches could have been dangerous.
Seeing how he performed, giving HBO another potential Fight of the Year, they should continue to reward him with good fights. That's how UFC has managed to stay hot, by giving exciting fighters plenty of tv time.



Okay, that's not what happened. Guerrero looked to hold and initiated it early to neutralize Berto's superior handspeed.
The announcers were calling it as it was. Guerrero held his head and hit him repeatedly until he fell for both of his knockdowns and set the stage for the rest of the fight.
When Berto hit him behind the head, they were tangled and Guerrero was ducking down. When they were tangled up in the middle of the ring and Berto threw that same punch, it landed on the side of the head.



No news there. Orthodox fighters can get in trouble with southpaws but you can't become an elite fighter in any division without having to fight some. That's boxing.

Well, after feeling like we saw two totally different fights as far as the holding issue, I went to a few other boxing forums to see what people are saying. I was surprised that it was even a topic because to me Berto clearly initiated the holding every time Guerrero attacked. It's interesting how even the fans can see fights differently just like the judges do. Check out these opinions: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=14273514

 

[Zeferino]

Man Guerrero committed a lot of fouls in that fight from beginning to end, and the ref didn't question him on it (and yes, that 1st knockdown was illegal) but when Berto tried to do something inside in the first half of the fight then he got warned about it...Not to mention that Guerrero held Berto's left arm in many of those clinches and never let go...I guess Berto shouldn't have taken that fight in Robert's backyard so to speak...

I hope this does not lead to a fight with Floyd for Guerrero like some are saying in those boxing forums. That would not be an attractive matchup at all...Floyd is better off facing Cotto again than fighting this dude

What exactly do you mean by Floyd being better off? Because if it's about him being better off monetarily, I could give two fucks. As a fan, I rather see him fight fresh new competition that will present him new stylistic challenges. I don't give a damn about another man's money, especially not in sports.

 

[tp2001]

What exactly do you mean by Floyd being better off? Because if it's about him being better off monetarily, I could give two fucks.

I feel ya on that point, but I feel Cotto would be a better fight for him style-wise and money wise...fighting Guerrero is like fighting a taller Ortiz in my eyes...

I still have a feeling that Floyd will fight Canelo though...

 

[Zeferino]

I feel ya on that point, but I feel Cotto would be a better fight for him style-wise and money wise...fighting Guerrero is like fighting a taller Ortiz in my eyes...

I still have a feeling that Floyd will fight Canelo though...

Yeah, he is kind of like a more focused and taller Ortiz. I would like to see how Floyd would deal with that. I've seen plenty Guerrero fights and I was never impressed with him before last night. He was one of those guys that I just wished would lose and get out of the picture.

 

[IT IS WHAT IT IS]

I feel ya on that point, but I feel Cotto would be a better fight for him style-wise and money wise...fighting Guerrero is like fighting a taller Ortiz in my eyes...

I still have a feeling that Floyd will fight Canelo though...

Floyd ain't going no where near Canelo... You better believe that! Guerrero or Retirement, bank on it... Oh, and he will probably give some story about how much better Guerrero looked in his fight against better competition than Canelo looked against weaker competition... you know, some BS justification like that...

I remember back when they were first trying to get a Manny fight, just before he fought Shane, and he threw Canelo's name out there... Would have fought him then because he was young and raw... Now, not so much...

And before I get bombarded with 100 'you a hater' posts, save that shit... Just speaking my opinion based on previous history with Dude, taking the path of least resistance...

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Man Guerrero committed a lot of fouls in that fight from beginning to end, and the ref didn't question him on it (and yes, that 1st knockdown was illegal) but when Berto tried to do something inside in the first half of the fight then he got warned about it...Not to mention that Guerrero held Berto's left arm in many of those clinches and never let go...I guess Berto shouldn't have taken that fight in Robert's backyard so to speak...

I hope this does not lead to a fight with Floyd for Guerrero like some are saying in those boxing forums. That would not be an attractive matchup at all...Floyd is better off facing Cotto again than fighting this dude

I think Guerrero should get another good welterweight win before he gets that kind of consideration but he had a high profile, exciting win so that might be enough, though a win over Berto doesn't carry the same weight as it did with Ortiz.

Floyd ain't going no where near Canelo... You better believe that! Guerrero or Retirement, bank on it... Oh, and he will probably give some story about how much better Guerrero looked in his fight against better competition than Canelo looked against weaker competition... you know, some BS justification like that...

I remember back when they were first trying to get a Manny fight, just before he fought Shane, and he threw Canelo's name out there... Would have fought him then because he was young and raw... Now, not so much...

And before I get bombarded with 100 'you a hater' posts, save that shit... Just speaking my opinion based on previous history with Dude, taking the path of least resistance...

Alvarez is raw now. Both he and Guerrero would be fresh fights for Mayweather and I'd prefer that over fighting Cotto again, even if Cotto looks good against Trout.
Canelo is a better draw and that's something Mayweather always takes into consideration. If he's comfortable at jr middle after his jail stint, Canelo is his only real option unless someone does something crazy this winter.