Part 2, Male R&B Mount Rushmore Luther Vandross, Babyface, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder...Do y’all agree?
- Thread starter jawnswoop
- Start date
You have a great list but I hate your dismissiveness of Face my G:
Is Babyface The Greatest (CONTEMPORARY) R&B Writer Ever?!
Real talk, I think that's the beauty of music and musicianship as a whole. We can agree and disagree on a musician and still love the "MUSIC" for it's own sake.
I love Luther, but he doesn't make my list. Will I listen to Luther, hell yeah. Will I listen to Babyface, again that a yes.
When I think of a Mount Rushmore of R&B, these two just don't make my cut. It's not because they lack talent, because all of them are talented. But there's something magical "to me" about the four I chose. Donny didn't have a lot of work compared to others, but that voice rings like a MoFo.
Now I can admit that I may be out of touch when it comes to Babyface. I was talking about the singing alone. If we're talking about writing then you have to seriously throw Smokey Robinson's name in the hat along with Holland Dozier Holland (I know they're a trio).
How can one pick only 4? My picks:
Singing:
1. Donny Hathaway
2. Luther Vandross
3. Marvin Gaye
4. Ronald / O'Kelly Isley
Overall:
1. Marvin Gaye
2. Stevie Wonder (--> Charlie Wilson-->Aaron Hall-->R. Kelly)
3. James Brown
4. Ray Charles
Those above 4 seem the most prolific and influential to the genre to me. Funk is an important member of the R&B family and since JB is the father of funk, he deserves his own spot.
.Shoutout to Curtis Mayfield, Prince & Michael Jackson
Singing:
1. Donny Hathaway
2. Luther Vandross
3. Marvin Gaye
4. Ronald / O'Kelly Isley
Overall:
1. Marvin Gaye
2. Stevie Wonder (--> Charlie Wilson-->Aaron Hall-->R. Kelly)
3. James Brown
4. Ray Charles
Those above 4 seem the most prolific and influential to the genre to me. Funk is an important member of the R&B family and since JB is the father of funk, he deserves his own spot.
.Shoutout to Curtis Mayfield, Prince & Michael Jackson
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I wouldn't include him but he is definitely prolific as a writer and producer and is a solid performer.
What about guys like Howard Hewett or James Ingram? To list only 3 or 4 at a time is a endlist debate.
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Maaaan. You put the Isleys and Teddy ABOVE Marvin as singers? Man, man, man.
An argument could be made for Ray because, like most blind singers (Stevie, Roy), he sings what's in his head, not what's on the chart. So he (they) are changing keys constantly, sometimes 2 and 3 times in one verse. That's why nobody can sing Stevie's songs that he doesn't want them to.
I respect your opinion and right to it, but brother, you know nothing about vocal quality. Nothing. Enjoy what you enjoy; listen and buy what you like - that's why there are so many different cars in so many different colors. But don't try to tell a mechanic about a car.
I would regard myself as a master mechanic musically, actually. My resume is long. I've been singing onstage since age 3, currently sing semi-professionally and have worked as both a music teacher and a vocal coach.
That said...
Actually, it was 3:30 in the morning when I posted that and my ass was half sleep. I meant to put Marvin Gaye on that top list too and Teddy in the shoutout list. I appreciate your calling my attention to that, bro. I'll fix it.
Also, neither list is in the numerical order of who I think is best- just who I think deserves to be on an imagined male R&B singer Mount Rushmore.
Interesting...
As for who invented R&B I agree about Ray Charles but not Sam Cooke (though he was very influential as a singer). I'd put Louis Jordan over him historically.
Stevie is very much a strong singer. I question your knowledge of vocal quality to say "he ain't no singer" lol.
You mentioned in another post that his stuff is hard to sing because of key changes. I would say you are half right. The difficulty is not in key changes within songs. The difficulty is in his wide vocal range. Two examples would be, 'Lately' and 'All Is Fair in Love', where he begins in a low pitch and ends very high. Going along with that is the fact that many of his songs are in first tenor range, which makes them easier for female vocalists to navigate but not the average baritone male singer.
I completely agree with you that Stevie's a genius...Apt comparison to the Duke. I agree that there are those more deserving than him on a Mount Rushmore for singers (vocal ability)- but only by a hair.
Forgot about EJ Johnson. Great singer. I see your EJ and raise you a Bobby DeBarge.
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Bobby Debarge? Man, you can't call EJ with Bobby Debarge. Bobby Debarge? jeez Okay. I'll allow it. I'll call and raise you the great, great Ron Tyson. Or we could do Phil Perry. Or The Iceman. Or Harry Williams.
Any one of them would dogwalk Bobby.
And Stevie is a very good singer but not great. His range is not the issue as I said but his chord changes within the song, sometimes going up or down 2 or 3 steps via the circthirds. His voice is very malleable because, as I also said he didn't learn like most people from sheet music but by what he "hears" in his mind. There's no intervention of notation. You see it in almost every blind singer.
As for your examples, you'd have been better citing You and I and/or Ave Maria.
But still no rushmore I'm afraid.
Now Louis, a great, great performer, writer, singer, musician but nope, nowhere near the inventor of R&B. He's more the inventor of Jump Blues which today we'd probably call Swing. But not watered down yt Swing; serious get out your seat and dance Swing.
Understand that R&B came from the church. It was called devil's music. Both Ray and Sam were high-profile gospel performers before the influence of Charles Brown. They took it from there.
And I won't even bring on the absolute best bari ever - Johnny Hartman - because he very rarely sang str8 up R&B.
Bless
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not Stevie is a great singer. His subtle nuances of emotion make him a high difficulty singer to do justice to. Marvin is deceptively detailed too. He made difficulty sound easy.
There really was no single inventor of R&B. It was a style that developed from a number of Black folks rooted in gospel, blues and jazz. But unmistakeably Black.
Actually Ray Charles' early work was in imitation of Nat King Cole. I remember in college buying a greatest hits of his earliest recordings and being disappointed lol. But when he took it back to church, it was a wrap.
Johnny Hartman was amazing with a rich, deep baritone. My favorite male jazz singers were Joe Williams and King Cole. Now, Nat still holds a top spot but Gregory Porter is the current top dog.
Good convo.
Most singers begin copying their "idols." Maybe influencers is a better word? Ella was very taken with the boswell sisters. Damn near everybody copied Lady Day. So, Ray imitating Nat is no surprise. Actually Charles Brown was Nat's influence.
Anyway, the Blues is the root, the rest is the fruit. So there are many, many derivatives of the Blues. Some are more easily identified than others. Some I'd hardly call a category at all.
Johnny not only had a voice like Honey but perfect pitch.
I still don't class Stevie as a great singer. There are many adjectives to describe his voice and style but great ain't one of them. And I love me some Stevie.
I fucks with Joe Williams. Mr 5x5, Joe Turner and Wynonie. But Little Willie John, oh man. Happened to be who JB imitated early in his career.
I know Gregory's sax player so I've seen him many times. Dig his sound. That is one reason I follow the Sarah Vaughan International Jazz Vocal Competition. You hear lots of young voices there. And in the clubs here in NYC.
Switch out Marvin Junior for Luther Vandross.
I recently discovered that Frankie Beverly & The Maze were called "Raw Soul" before they toured with Marvin Gaye and he suggested a name change. If you like music at all you might fuck with this live joint here from an early Frankie Beverly Raw Soul joint:
Damn bruh, I don't even know what to say to this?! Stevie's voice and music was like the embryonic fluid I grew up witth bc of my parent's obsession with great music. Stevie's music has literally informed my whole life. I have so many of his songs/hooks in my DNA, I can't imagine him or his style being described as LESS than "great". That seems psychotic on some Israeli type shit to me lol.
Maybe, just maybe, you should invest more time in reading fundamentals. Then perhaps you'd see that I NEVER said his style wasn't great. In fact, if it doesn't hurt your brain too much to locate, you'll find that I said only Duke compares to him as a musical genius.
He's not a great singer. Any musician or singer WHOSE MIND ISN'T CORRUPTED BY AUTOTUNE AND ELECTRONICS will tell you that.
I pity young folks today. For one thing the gubment has cut school funding so much band is virtually nonexistent so yunguns don't even know what real instruments sound like. Nor do they know what it feels like to sit in the middle of an orchestra playing.
And secondly, the record companies in their never satisfied quest to squeeze every last penny out of everything have 1. programed young ears to accept machines instead of instruments and 2 programed young ears to accept crappy 128 kbps streaming.
Bottom line, if your ears aren't properly trained you just don't know.
Damn bruh, it ain't that serious
! Not to nitpick my "reading fundamentals" but you did literal say that Stevie's style and singing weren't great lol. I even highlighted your own comment. Anyways, I respect your musical opinions, I know you have knowledge, depth and sincerity on this stuff among others even if I don't always agree with your takes.Peace,
Damn bruh, it ain't that serious
Peace,
MUSIC IS SERIOUS BUSINESS GODAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But you are conflating things, my friend.
His vocal style and voice are not great. But they are exceedingly unique. You could never put his chops against Luther, Jackie or Willie (Winfield) for instance. That is why I say his voice is not great. But because he writes (with help) 99% of his own stuff, his voice suits his material to a T. Suiting the material doesn't make it great. Great for the material, yes. But great in comparison, no.
But folks need to stop relying on low-quality streaming, grab some 24/96 bitrate, some really good cans, and listen.
The music is beautiful but you can't appreciate or compare it listening to 128 bit slop.
Peace and love my G
What's your musical background, Brother?MUSIC IS SERIOUS BUSINESS GODAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But you are conflating things, my friend.
His vocal style and voice are not great. But they are exceedingly unique. You could never put his chops against Luther, Jackie or Willie (Winfield) for instance. That is why I say his voice is not great. But because he writes (with help) 99% of his own stuff, his voice suits his material to a T. Suiting the material doesn't make it great. Great for the material, yes. But great in comparison, no.
But folks need to stop relying on low-quality streaming, grab some 24/96 bitrate, some really good cans, and listen.
The music is beautiful but you can't appreciate or compare it listening to 128 bit slop.
Peace and love my G
It's a bit complex. If you mean do I play, read/write music, yes. Can sing bg and stay in key. Don't have the presence for lead. But that's maybe 30-40% of it. My musical landscape is far more vast.
I appreciate your sharing that. I hear you. You're passionate about what you like. You're right, we don't have to lay out our entire resumes on here. I was interested in what your musical expertise was. From certain people you listed amongst your likes, you sound like an older cat. Like 60+. I'm close to that generation myself.
As a lead singer, who communicates and has sung with a number of other excellent singers, I've never heard a single one of them say Stevie Wonder's singing voice was anything less than great. His singing influenced scores of singers after him. In an exchange with Marsha Ambrosius , she not only told me he was amongst her greatest vocal influences, but also spontaneously sang snippets of her 3 favorite Stevie songs for me. Many singers I've talked and vibed with acknowledge Stevie as among the greatest singers, specifically.
I appreciate his vocal range, his emotional depth and his ability to use his voice in unique ways to paint pictures and exemplify a plethora of emotions. He was a major influence on my own singing.
I appreciate the voice of Johnny Hartman, but he's not among my favorite jazz singers. I hold Nat King Cole up as my favorite.
Everyone's ears hear differently, family. Everyone's tastes are different. A difference of opinion does not necessitate lack of musical knowledge or inexperience or lack of exposure. It's just a difference of preference.
Yeah, I know Marsha is gaga for Steve. I'd actually put Nat in the Pop category more than Jazz. His brother, however...
Yes, I agree you like what you like and I am an old ass motherfucker but I've never, never heard anyone from Sailor to Gregory (who loves Nat), to, man I could go on...I've never heard anyone say Steve is a great singer eg, his voice is among the greatest voices.
They unanimously agree he's one of the top 3 musical geniuses, along with Duke and Miles, but voice? Nah.
Anyway, enjoy what you will, but unless you're listening to at the very least FLAC - preferably live acoustic - on some monitors or excellent cans, then I just don't know. Because just like we don't see with our eyes, we don't hear with our ears.
"Artist," absolutely. Not sure how Mimi and Bey ended up on there but I suppose it's a sign of youth.
