Obama: "Electricity Rates Would Necessarily Skyrocket." - Discuss!

you stuck on Iraq, and Iraq hasn't been a headliner since the election.

Just in case you don't know, the issue is about ENERGY, not Iraq.

What are we doing to do about ENERGY?

The democratic solution is to RAISE the prices essentially.

The republican solution is to find more PRODUCTIVE ways of energy so the prices will stay either the same, or even get lower.

Democrats= raising electric bill

Republicans= keeping, or lowering your electric bill.

Tell me which one makes more sense...

BTW, why should I have to pay for something I don't believe in *man made global warming*?

Exactly. The problem with wingnuts is you think you can run up the tab in the trillions of dollars and pretend the bill doesn't exist. All I know is, that bill is coming due and will hit long before any of this other shit you guys want to obfuscate will.

Problems Solving -The Republican Method.

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-VG
 
Exactly. The problem with wingnuts is you think you can run up the tab in the trillions of dollars and pretend the bill doesn't exist. All I know is, that bill is coming due and will hit long before any of this other shit you guys want to obfuscate will.

Problems Solving -The Republican Method.

2ykku8l.jpg



-VG

Well I don't see any democrat trying to stop the funding of the war. I mean, it must be important if both parties agree that they should keep funding it.

Back to the subject, do you agree with this bill?
 
You are living in the age of Google! You can be like Colin, and refuse to read or watch Bullshit!

Fifteen seconds on Google will take you to the horses mouth. Here it is:
http://www.epa.gov/captrade/

also: http://www.epa.gov/captrade/captrade-101.html for a primer.

This is why I don't fall for the man made global warning scam. The people in charge of making laws haven't studied enough, analytically, to make proper determination. Yet they are willing to throw our economy down the drain.

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This is why I don't fall for the man made global warning scam. The people in charge of making laws haven't studied enough, analytically, to make proper determination. Yet they are willing to throw our economy down the drain.

Special interests wrote the bill. Call your Congressperson, I don't agree with the bill so I plan to let me voice be heard
 
The jobs we will lose when the remainder of our industry decides to offshore their operations in an attempt to avoid this "Cap N Tax" hear that? whats left of our industrial base will leave

you got too much trust in these clowns that don't even read the legislation they pass!

F*ck a Republican suggestion, How about an American suggestion?

Lets do like the Chinese in an attempt to compete on the global stage!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6481997.ece

Let this bill be known as the Waxman / Markey / Madoff Bill

Which industries are you talking about exactly and why would they leave? Just to come back and pay the tariff on certain goods from countries that do not limit their global warming emissions?

And, like I said, the allowances are supposed to be traded amongst themselves. If they drive their own prices and get people upset the government will step in.

And China is one of the main reasons we're doing this. If the U.S. expects any other countries to follow in our environmental footsteps we have to lead by example. And if we're the ones leading and innovating, we can expect them to buy those emission reducing innovations from us.

I figure if we do what's right for the environment and tax their imports they'll come around to seeing things our way. ("but, but it's going to drive up costs." Maybe. But maybe we'll find it cheaper to make stuff here for a change)



This is why I don't fall for the man made global warning scam. The people in charge of making laws haven't studied enough, analytically, to make proper determination. Yet they are willing to throw our economy down the drain.

That's it? If you read a 1200 page book are you going to remember everything in it? I didn't think so.

And the source for that EPA suppression article is an economist, not a scientist. So I don't see why his opinion holds much weight in a scientific argument.
 
Sidebar: This is a follow up to the aforementioned post. Same source

The source, who chooses not to be identified for fear of retaliation, said that Carlin was rebuffed in his attempt to introduce scientific evidence that does not accord with the EPA's view of global warming, which largely relies on IPCC reports. The source also saw Carlin's report and said that it was 'based on 8 points of peer-reviewed, recent and relevant scientific publications' that cast doubt on the wisdom of regulating CO2 as a pollutant

Peer reviewed is top dog.
 
source: www.forbes.com

Waxman-Markey Flunks Math

A couple we know got a rude interruption on Saturday night. The two had settled into their seats at the AMC Cupertino Square 16 theater and were enjoying The Taking of Pelham 123, a thriller remake starring John Travolta and Denzel Washington. But Pelham 123 never finished; the theater lost its electrical power. The cause was a rolling brownout, due to a California heat wave and excessive use of air conditioning.

Electricity is a good thing. It powers your computer, drives economic growth, transmits images from Tehran streets, keeps preemies alive in hospitals, prevents meat from rotting and enchants and cools you in movie theaters.

Yes, electricity is a good thing. Where does it come from?

In the U.S., electricity is produced from these sources. If you are reading this on a handheld and can't read Wikipedia's wonderful pie chart, here is the breakdown:

48.9% -- Coal
20% -- Natural Gas
19.3% -- Nuclear
1.6% -- Petroleum

Got that? A tick over 88% of U.S. electricity comes from three sources: coal, gas and nuclear. Petroleum brings the contribution of so-called "evil" energy--that is, energy that is carbon- or uranium-based--to almost 90%.

The remaining sources of U.S. electricity, the renewables, are, by comparison, tiny players:

7.1% -- Hydroelectric
2.4% -- Other Renewables
0.7% -- Other

Hydroelectric accounts for 70% of renewable energy in America. But, of course, hydro is mostly tapped out. Almost every dam that could be built has been built. Ironically enough, political opposition to building more dams comes from the same crowd of tree huggers who oppose coal, gas and uranium.

Do you see where I'm going?

The Waxman-Markey bill that passed the House on Friday by a 219-212 margin will punitively tax energy sources that contribute 90% of current U.S. electricity (or 71% if you want to leave out nuclear). The taxes will be used to subsidize the 10% renewable contributors (but really just 3% after you leave out hydro).

In other words, Waxman-Markey is betting the future of U.S. electricity production on sources that now contribute 3% or supply 10 million Americans with electricity. That's enough juice for the people in Waxman's Los Angeles County. Or, if you prefer, for Nancy Pelosi's metro San Francisco plus Markey's metro Boston.

Well, what about electricity for the other 295 million? You can't get there from here with Waxman-Markey. At very best, solar, wind and cellulosic ethanol will make 20% contributions by 2025. The smart money would bet on 10%.

Renewable dreamers, such as New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, believe this magical 3% is somehow different than the 97%. Different in the way the silicon chip is different than the Eniac computer. In other words, they believe the 3% will see Moore's Law exponential gains that will grow mighty in a decade. That is precisely the bet being made by the giant venture capital fund Kleiner Perkins with its billion-dollar-plus green fund. The firm's alpha dog and green weeper, John Doerr, is convinced that solar and cellulosic ethanol will see Moore's Law gains if you assemble the world's best and brightest minds to work on it.

I see no evidence of that. Now, it is true that solar and maybe cellulosic ethanol have the potential of making bigger technological leaps than traditional sources. But not at the pace of Moore's Law, or even close.

Meanwhile, traditional sources of electricity that are progressing in the direction of cleaner and more efficient are being ignored (or dissed by Waxman-Markey). Here are two must reads--the first on clean coal by Gregg Easterbrook, the second on fission energy by Robert Metcalfe. Study them if you take electricity production seriously.

Bottom line: There is no way the U.S. economy can enjoy future prosperity without the big three electrical energy sources of clean coal, natural gas and nuclear.
 
Sidebar: This is a follow up to the aforementioned post. Same source

The source, who chooses not to be identified for fear of retaliation, said that Carlin was rebuffed in his attempt to introduce scientific evidence that does not accord with the EPA's view of global warming, which largely relies on IPCC reports. The source also saw Carlin's report and said that it was 'based on 8 points of peer-reviewed, recent and relevant scientific publications' that cast doubt on the wisdom of regulating CO2 as a pollutant

Peer reviewed is top dog.

Is it? I didn't realize economists were such authorities on the subject.:hmm:

All jokes aside, though, what are the 8 points? What new ground did he break? Most of the scientific community thinks climate change is real...
 
Peer review has become the gold standard of the scientific community. Bring up a scientific finding, and the first thing you may be asked is, "Ah, well, is this peer reviewed?" (For those who don't know, peer review means that, before the journal will publish a paper, one or more other scientists who study similar topics). There is now even a popular blog aggregater that focuses exclusively on blogging about peer reviewed research.

In the age of the Discovery Institute there are some good reasons to focus on peer reviewed research as a way of excluding quacks. It's a way of saying that this research has been vetted.
www.scienceblog.com
 
source: www.forbes.com
At very best, solar, wind and cellulosic ethanol will make 20% contributions by 2025. The smart money would bet on 10%.

Link the article, not the website. Lazy folks like me don't want to google everything you provide...

anywhoo...

That 10-20% is the point. That's a 10-20% reduction in the use of "dirty" energy. Also, you have to take into account the fact that, if all goes according to plan, new homes will be constructed with renewable energy in mind (solar panels and whatnot) and old homes will be retrofitted or renovated for the same purpose. And at the same time, the energy companies under cap and trade will be cutting their emissions.

Sounds like it's going to work just fine.:yes:
 
Peer review has become the gold standard of the scientific community. Bring up a scientific finding, and the first thing you may be asked is, "Ah, well, is this peer reviewed?" (For those who don't know, peer review means that, before the journal will publish a paper, one or more other scientists who study similar topics). There is now even a popular blog aggregater that focuses exclusively on blogging about peer reviewed research.

In the age of the Discovery Institute there are some good reasons to focus on peer reviewed research as a way of excluding quacks. It's a way of saying that this research has been vetted.
www.scienceblog.com

Let's continue...

"That said, when I read comments like the one above, I think the time has come to push back, and point out that peer review is not the arbiter of truth. Truth is the arbiter of truth, and peer review is merely a flawed tool we use to help get there.

Peer reviewers don't check to make sure the results are true. Peer reviewers do not typically replicate the experiment in question. They do not check the math. Most of what they do is check that the arguments are reasonable and that the experiment(s) were well designed. Peer reviewers do not necessarily even have to agree with a paper they accept. They may simply think the data are compelling and the arguments are worth hearing, even if they may be wrong."

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/against-peer-review-15988.html
 
Is it? I didn't realize economists were such authorities on the subject.:hmm:

All jokes aside, though, what are the 8 points? What new ground did he break? Most of the scientific community thinks climate change is real...

Just as many scientist refute Al Gore's movie claims. Science is conclusive evidence. If you drop a few mento's in some liter bottles of sody pop the bottle will explode. Thats conclusive evidence. With debate on both sides, it leads me to contend that someone is playing with my spidy-senses. These so called scientist try to predict the number of hurricanes each year. They revise the number several times during hurricane season as well. Ever had the weather guy tell you on Saturday it will be sunny, then all of a sudden its raining cats and dogs? On a lighter note here's something to make you laugh.

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Let's continue...

"That said, when I read comments like the one above, I think the time has come to push back, and point out that peer review is not the arbiter of truth. Truth is the arbiter of truth, and peer review is merely a flawed tool we use to help get there.

Peer reviewers don't check to make sure the results are true. Peer reviewers do not typically replicate the experiment in question. They do not check the math. Most of what they do is check that the arguments are reasonable and that the experiment(s) were well designed. Peer reviewers do not necessarily even have to agree with a paper they accept. They may simply think the data are compelling and the arguments are worth hearing, even if they may be wrong."

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/against-peer-review-15988.html

I guess that goes back to the argument of Al Gore's science experts and science experts who cry bad science. I see your point.
 
Just as many scientist refute Al Gore's movie claims. Science is conclusive evidence. If you drop a few mento's in some liter bottles of sody pop the bottle will explode. Thats conclusive evidence. With debate on both sides, it leads me to contend that someone is playing with my spidy-senses. These so called scientist try to predict the number of hurricanes each year. They revise the number several times during hurricane season as well. Ever had the weather guy tell you on Saturday it will be sunny, then all of a sudden its raining cats and dogs? On a lighter note here's something to make you laugh.


I haven't seen Al Gore's movie so I don't anything about it except the title. lol...and I was just having trouble remember what it was...

andwho...no, the weatherman never lied to me because science is conclusive. they even have little pictures and graphics so we can see where the clouds are forming...

But this has nothing to do with anything...

I understand that you're skeptical about global warming. That's cool. But, what's the environmental harm in trying to limit GHG? It's all benefit, I think...
 
So all ya'll gave Dubya a "chance"?

Maybe thats the problem - Why should we give any of these people a chance? These are the same people who introduced NAFTA, the War on Drugs, The war on Terror, The Banker Takeover Bill, FISA, The Patriot Act and enabled "illegal mmigration"!

Na, We shouldn't give these politicians a "chance" Will ya'll think for yourself and your communities? I know ya'll give a damn cause we on this board sparrin about issues all day. Regardless of how significant the tax is, It's not helpin' your families bottom line. It's not helping the neighborhood cornerstore. Goldman S*chs don't give a damn, they gone make the Enron debacle look like childsplay when they start manipulating carbon-trading. And it's all legal!

MLK, “Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.”

To think, If Dick Cheney would've introduced this crap, some of yall would be ready to March on Washington. But since its Al Gore & the Dems, it must be OK, GTFOH :angry:
 
So all ya'll gave Dubya a "chance"?

Maybe thats the problem - Why should we give any of these people a chance?

I was going to post this, but this

"give him a chance"

stuff speaks to a naivete that is impervious to reason.

You get a chance or credit once you've proven yourself and delivered.

If you've never delivered, why give someone credit?

Politicians are here to screw you over. Why would you give them a chance to do that?
 
the plan would increase rates to goofy highs for EVERYONE. While it is a great idea to move towards a way of helping the enviorment, people are having a hard time as it is out there, and now, pushing something that would make electricity rates boom upwards, cause you know they will pass every cent to us, will only hurt, not help. If you look up info on this, all parties agree, this will put a huge burden on everyone, those that have money won't care as much, those just making it, imagine what they will go through?
 
I've gone Green a while ago. I have a low flow toilet. I use LED lightbulbs, I have Bamboo Flooring instead of tradition hardwood. I used low VOC Paints to paint my place. I turn off my electronics if its' not in use. I don't use my ac much if at all. My electric bill is low. I'm the only brotha I know who's gone Green ie recycling and other things. I hope it won't hurt those who cannot afford it.
 
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I've gone Green a while ago. I have a low flow toilet. I use LED lightbulbs, I have Bamboo Flooring instead of tradition hardwood. I used low VOC Paints to paint my place. I turn off my electronics if its' not in use. I don't use my ac much if at all. My electric bill is low. I'm the only brotha I know who's gone Green ie recycling and other things. I hope it won't hurt those who cannot afford it.

A low flow toilet? :D Is that what this is coming to? R U in California?

Do you feel everyone should be mandated to follow these standards? It appears you have made a conscious decision to alter your lifestyle and thats fine, but the govt's role is not to dictate how I live my life. Has anyone guestimated how much this would cost to enforce?
 
I've gone Green a while ago. I have a low flow toilet. I use LED lightbulbs, I have Bamboo Flooring instead of tradition hardwood. I used low VOC Paints to paint my place. I turn off my electronics if its' not in use. I don't use my ac much if at all. My electric bill is low. I'm the only brotha I know who's gone Green ie recycling and other things. I hope it won't hurt those who cannot afford it.

Sooooooooooo your point?

Have it ACUR to you that maybe, just maybe I don't want none of that crap? Maybe I like my money going to....ahhhhh....lets say STUFF I WANT?
 
A low flow toilet? :D Is that what this is coming to? R U in California?

Do you feel everyone should be mandated to follow these standards? It appears you have made a conscious decision to alter your lifestyle and thats fine, but the govt's role is not to dictate how I live my life. Has anyone guestimated how much this would cost to enforce?

Just like the switch to broadcast in digital mandate. Rebates were sent out to purchase the device. It wasn't the government playing Santa. Guess who paid for it? That's right!!! You and me. What many people fail to realize is that the government doesn't produce anything. All the money that is printed by the treasury is being backed by China and paid for by the productive citizens in our country.
 
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