Naruto Manga Discussion

[Jae]

in fact the only person to actually take the time and teach him was Jiraiya, everything he did, he did on his own, all the techniques that he's used were his own original creations

Not sure what you mean by his own "original" creations/techniques, but
Naruto's 2 most used techniques come from somebody else.

He learned Kage Bunshin no jutsu (Shadow clone) from the scroll he stole.
His Rasengan he learned from Jiraiya, which was created by his father the 4th.
Now of course with practice, he improved upon using those, but he didnt "create" them.
Everybody "improves" upon existing techs with enough practice.
See my next point.

'Genius' Sasuke couldn't even come up with his own techniques

Kakashi taught Saskue "Chidori ", which Saskue improrved upon, and made his own technique out of it called "KIRIN"

Just like Naruto learned Rasengan, then improved upon the technique with Fuuton: Rasen shuriken

see for example when they fought against that Ninja from the rain village, it was Naruto's technique they used to defeat him, sadly emphasis was always placed on Sasuke owing to him being a prodigy and possessing that eye technique.

Do you mean "Battle Tatics"?

Yes Naruto is very good at this. And i'm sure this is one of the things Jiriya helped him with during the timeskip.
But it's not exclusive to him.
Sauske defeated both Deidara and Danzo by outsmarting them.

Look at the fact that everytime when they were in a pinch it was Naruto and his last minute secret training that saved their asses all the time.

I cant agree with this at all. Naruto's "training" is overrated when it comes to his accomplishments defeating powerful foes.
Because the same reason people hate Sauske (some secret Sharingan power always saves his ass), people love Naruto for doing the same thing (the 9tails power).


Against Haku,

, Naruto was trapped & about to die, but was saved by Sasuke. But he was bailed out by the 9tails chakra/power in him, and it allowed him to break out of Haku's "Ice Release", which is supposed to be impossible. With that Raw power, he won.
That was no planning or secret training.
He escaped death by the 4th's "gift", not by hardwork.





Against Orochimaru during the "Chuunin exams"
Naruto was able to save both Sauske, Sakura, and himself from getting killed because he used the Fox Tail's power to protect them from the Huge Snake.

Again, no battle tatics or secret training saved their lives.
Just the 4ths "Gift", raw power.




Against Neji during the Chuuin exam Finals, Naruto was out of Chakra. Neji used Juken ("Gentle Fist") on him, which closes up your chakra flow.
Neji warned Naruto to stand down or he would kill him. He basically had his life in his hands.

Naruto refused, which should have been the death of him.
But because he asked the 9tails for some of his chakra/power, he broke out of the Juken effects.
If not for that, Neji would have killed him.
Now yes, Naruto WON the match on his smarts, but he SURVIVED that long because of the 9tails.





Against Gaara, once again, he was on the verge of death because he was out of Chakra, going against Shukaku.

With no way to fight because he was trapped in sand, and about to be killed off, he used his "Gift" to get just enough raw/power to escape the quicksand he was in and headbutt Gaara.






And finally, against Pein, he was done for

Even with all that Sage Mode training and clone planning and hoopla, at the end of the day Pein had him captured and at any time could have killed him when he had him all spiked up.
He was finished.
He escaped how?









So my point is, planning, hard work, and training are a little overrated when it comes to Naruto being alive today, wouldnt you say?
The main reason he's alive today is because of the 9tails.
All that "All i need is the power to believe in myself and train and i can defeat anyone just by hard work" sht flies out the window when you've been saved numerous times by some power installed in you from birth that wont let you die.




Yes, Naruto's a very powerful ninja without the 9tails. He's worked very hard, learned alot by traiing hard, overcome alot, and won the peoples respect.



But he's not an underdog (ninja) to me.
Everything points to him being a great ninja sooner or later, knowing what we know now.
His work ethic and his goals, combined with all the tools he had since birth, it's as close to a sure thing as you can get in this manga.



Like i said, an underdog (ninja) is someone like Rock Lee.
He's ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage against all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier ninjas, maybe even 4th............ he cant compete at that level

1st teir
Rikudou sennin
Pein

2st tier
Madara
1st, 3rd,4th Hokage


3rd tier
Itachi
Jiriya


4th tier
Orochimaru


I dont care how long or how hard he trains. He'll never have the tools to beat the best. (without dying himself)
At no point in the manga can i say the same for Naruto, knowing what i know now.
Just about every fight he goes in he has the upper hand with the kyuubi, whether he or the person he's fighting knows it or not.
And it's not due to his training so to say.

 

[blaqueman]

Not sure what you mean by his own "original" creations/techniques, but
Naruto's 2 most used techniques come from somebody else.

While I'll agree with you to a point you also need to remember that when Naruto stole the scrolls it was based on someone telling him to steal it for them, also remember that Naruto never knew how to do a shadow clone properly and was always laughed at the Academy when he tried to create one.

He learned Kage Bunshin no jutsu (Shadow clone) from the scroll he stole.

See point above, even having stole the scroll he still made perfect clones by himself, the shadow clone technique is his worse technique and he 'perfected' it by himself

His Rasengan he learned from Jiraiya, which was created by his father the 4th.
Now of course with practice, he improved upon using those, but he didnt "create" them.
Everybody "improves" upon existing techs with enough practice.
See my next point.

I'll agree with you their, to add though, the Rasengan is only the First part of the technique and he did improve upon it and created 2 new versions of it, isn't that Correct?




Kakashi taught Saskue "Chidori ", which Saskue improrved[/FONT][/B] upon, and made his own technique out of it called KIRIN


Again I'll agree with you up to a point here, but that method called Kirin is a Nature Based Chakra, much like Naruto entering Sage Mode, and to me Orochimaru is the one who taught him how to collect Nature Chakra



Just like Naruto learned Rasengan, then improved upon the technique with Fuuton: Rasen shuriken

Do you mean "Battle Tatics"?

Yes Naruto is very good at this. And i'm sure this is one of the things Jiriya helped him with during the timeskip.
But it's not exclusive to him.
Sauske defeated both Deidara and Danzo by outsmarting them.

Well his stupid eye technique was there from the start helping him out, but seriously to me the very moves that Naruto does in battle I've never seen Sasuke do anything different in fact even the fight btw his brother Itachi and him, he used the same technique that Naruto 'taught' him, throw the fan and hide the real technique under it





I cant agree with this at all. Naruto's "training" is overrated when it comes to his accomplishments defeating powerful foes.
Because the same reason people hate Sauske (some secret Sharingan power always saves his ass), people love Naruto for doing the same thing (the 9tails power).


Again I can agree with you up to a point, however, it should be noted that Naruto doesn't immediately jump in to fight with the Nine tails power, it can be inferred that the nine tails helps him so that he doesn't die, cause if Naruto is killed his ass is toast as well !

Against Haku,

, Naruto was trapped & about to die, but was saved by Sasuke. But he was bailed out by the 9tails chakra/power in him, and it allowed him to break out of Haku's "Ice Release", which is supposed to be impossible. With that Raw power, he won.
That was no planning or secret training.
He escaped death by the 4th's "gift", not by hardwork.

I hear you, but it should also be noted that the nine tails reacts to anger, Naruto never experienced someone caring enough for him to 'die' for him, and that's how he reacted, the Nine Tails never manifested itself before, but I'll give you 'win' in this point lol !





Against Orochimaru during the "Chuunin exams"
Naruto was able to save both Sauske, Sakura, and himself from getting killed because he used the Fox Tail's power to protect them from the Huge Snake.

Again, no battle tatics or secret training saved their lives.
Just the 4ths "Gift", raw power.

AH but he's never been able to control it, and as always he's using it based upon Raw Emotion




Against Neji during the Chuuin exam Finals, Naruto was out of Chakra. Neji used Juken ("Gentle Fist") on him, which closes up your chakra flow.
Neji warned Naruto to stand down or he would kill him. He basically had his life in his hands.

Naruto refused, which should have been the death of him.
But because he asked the 9tails for some of his chakra/power, he broke out of the Juken effects.
If not for that, Neji would have killed him.
Now yes, Naruto WON the match on his smarts, but he SURVIVED that long because of the 9tails.

Again he used a battle technique that surprised everyone, isn't that what Ninjitsu is about 'outsmarting' your enemy and in the shadows hitting the 'killing' blow, to me that shows all the time who everyone taught was going to be victor, the UNDERDOG won that round!




Against Gaara, once again, he was on the verge of death because he was out of Chakra, going against Shukaku.

With no way to fight because he was trapped in sand, and about to be killed off, he used his "Gift" to get just enough raw/power to escape the quicksand he was in and headbutt Gaara.

This time I won't agree with you, he used the techniques that Jiraiya taught him much more than his 'gift', in this battle he was much more in control of himself and the only reason why that tap into his 'power base' was that both he & the giant frog were out of chakra, he only needed to awaken Gaara, that fight was him more in control than anything else






And finally, against Pein, he was done for

Even with all that Sage Mode training and clone planning and hoopla, at the end of the day Pein had him captured and at any time could have killed him when he had him all spiked up.
He was finished.
He escaped how?


Actually he escaped on his own, you're thinking that he was about to go into full Nine Tails mode, but his FATHER spoke to him and gave him his 'foundation' RE: his belief in him, and after that meeting he came out in full Sage Mode, hell it can probably be said that he did a teleportation technique like his dad, but that may be reaching at this time









So my point is, planning, hard work, and training are a little overrated when it comes to Naruto being alive today, wouldnt you say?

Nah I won't, he does work hard for everything that he accomplishes


The main reason he's alive today is because of the 9tails.
All that "All i need is the power to believe in myself and train and i can defeat anyone just by hard work" sht flies out the window when you've been saved numerous times by some power installed in you from birth that wont let you die.

If Naruto is fully in control of his 'gift' I would've conceded to your analogy,but this isn't the case at all.



Yes, Naruto's a very powerful ninja without the 9tails. He's worked very hard, learned alot by traiing hard, overcome alot, and won the peoples respect.

He only got the respect, when Pein gave him his 'gift' if he had just defeated Pein only I don't know how much respect he would've gotten!



But he's not an underdog (ninja) to me.
Everything points to him being a great ninja sooner or later, knowing what we know now.
His work ethic and his goals, combined with all the tools he had since birth, it's as close to a sure thing as you can get in this manga.

Yet all your observations/points shows the exact opposite,if you're given 'gifts' then you shouldn't have to work as hard as you do to 'control/use it right?



Like i said, an underdog (ninja) is someone like Rock Lee.
He's ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage against all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier ninjas, maybe even 4th............ he cant compete at that level

1st teir
Rikudou sennin
Pein

2st tier
Madara
1st, 3rd,4th Hokage


3rd tier
Itachi
Jiriya


4th tier
Orochimaru

Can I ask a question how is Orochimaru a 4th Tier ninja?
I dont care how long or how hard he trains. He'll never have the tools to beat the best. (without dying himself)

My believe is that Rock Lee needs a different mentor/teacher, much like Naruto when he met Jirayia, he needs someone else, its been shown time and time again that his sensei has him at a serious disadvantage

At no point in the manga can i say the same for Naruto, knowing what i know now.
Just about every fight he goes in he has the upper hand with the kyuubi, whether he or the person he's fighting knows it or not.
And it's not due to his training so to say.

Again I won't agree with your logic here, he doesn't go into a fight thinking he's going to win with the Kyuubi, after this dialogue with his mother we'll see the exent of his abilities

 

[Jae]

Well his stupid eye technique was there from the start helping him out, but seriously to me the very moves that Naruto does in battle I've never seen Sasuke do anything different

Really?
To me they fight nothing alike.
Before Sasuke began spamming his Sharingan powers(after the Deidara fight) he used alot of tajitsu techniques, weapons, and Ninjutsu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K0ZGWLjPFU


Naruto's tajitsu sucks, rarely uses a weapon, and he usually just sets up Feints (Kage Bushins), to set up his attacks.

Again he used a battle technique that surprised everyone, isn't that what Ninjitsu is about 'outsmarting' your enemy and in the shadows hitting the 'killing' blow, to me that shows all the time who everyone taught was going to be victor, the UNDERDOG won that round!

Naruto without using the 9tails power was defeated by Neji.
Finished.
There was nothing else he could do, His Chakra was sealed up and Neji would have gone for the Killing blow.
Naruto's NATURAL talents (which is what made him an "underdog", his fighting/ninja talents werent near the top rookies or other top ninjas) weren't good enough to beat Neji.

So he used his "Get out of Jail free card" for lack of a better phrase, to enable him to keep on fighting.
Who else in the Manga has that type of luxury? (besides Sasuke )
I know he's the main character and all, but with a power that wont let you die and comes to the rescue everytime you're about to be defeated, how can you be an underdog?
Just about everytime Naruto's defeated or about to die, whether consciously or subconsciously, his 9tail power leaks out to save him.

This time I won't agree with you, he used the techniques that Jiraiya taught him much more than his 'gift'

You're proving my point for me.
It's not how much he uses his "Gift".
It's WHEN.
WHEN Naruto (consciously or subconsciously) uses the 9tail power, it's when all other options are spent and hes about to lose. (His life)

All the techniques that Jiriya taught him to use with his natural talents didnt mean anything in the end. Did It?
He was beat up, exhausted, and out of Chakra, and to make matters worse, He was about to be crushed/sinked to death.
So he used his GOOJF Card to keep going.

Actually he escaped on his own

Nah man, Pein had him down for the count. Naruto's body was full of rods (Pein intentionally missed his vital organs to capture him alive) and Naruto couldnt move and wasnt in Sage mode anymore.
That's defeated no matter which way you slice it. What else could he do that didnt involve the 9tail chakra?
Pein had defeated Naruto in Sage Mode.

Now when sweetcheeks Hinata comes downs and triggers Naruto to go into tailed form, THAT allowed him to escape the black chakra rods holding him down.
So once again, the 9tail power saved his life.

If Naruto is fully in control of his 'gift' I would've conceded to your analogy,but this isn't the case at all.

What are his feats "without" using the 9tail chakra?
& Why does he have to be in control?
It's like Gaara's ultimate protection.
Then Sand gaurds him whether he wants it to or not.
Basically meaning Naruto will never lose his life because the kyubbi is protecting him,and its strong enough to take on just about anything in the manga.
Naruto would have been dead countless times if it wasnt for the 9tails

Again I won't agree with your logic here, he doesn't go into a fight thinking he's going to win with the Kyuubi,

Exactly, he never goes into battle thinking hes going to use the Kyuubi chakra.
I'm sure he thinks he dosent need it and can defeat his enimes without it. He dosent even like to use it.
Unfortunately for him, almost every strong enemy he's faced has had him on the brink of death and about to be defeated/killed.
And then either he says "Aight, Fck this sht, bring out this 9tail chakra,...........or he subconsciously uses it through strong emotions.
Then, Wa La, victory!



Now look, you could make a point that the 9tails chakra is just a part of Naruto, so in essence, it IS his natural power.



I'd say ok, then with that in mind, in which fight from the whole series has Naruto been an underdog in, with that power at his disposal from the start?
It dosent matter if Naruto knew how to call on it or not, the 9tails will Always lend him his strength if he's about to die, or if narutos serious enough, he'll trigger it subconsciously.
So with that in mind, and us knowing the power the kyuubi has and what it can do, who can he possibly be an underdog to in a life or death battle?

Lets say in part 1, the max he could use was what? Let's say 3tails?

Haku?
We saw what happened here with a one tail Naruto, Haku wouldve been killed by Naruto in less then a minute had Naruto not pulled his punch at the end.
So in what way was he an underdog?



Neji?
Going in, in what way is he an underdog?
He wasnt even in tailed form when he was giving Neji fits.
He just had the shroud.
When they both blew each other back, Naruto could have just RE-upped the 9tail chakra, but there was no need, he found a smarter way to beat Neji.


Gaara?
You could make a case for Gaara being the favorite, but IMO 3tail Naruto is about equal or better though.



Kiba?
Naruto beat this fool in base mode.
What could Kiba possibly do or use if the 9tail chakra activated?



On to part 2, where he now has access to all the tails if no one calms him down.


Diedra against 5 or more tailed Naruto?
Anything other then his ultimate technique wont work on Naruto, and then he still loses.


Orochimaru?
He was lucky to escape with his life.



Kakazu?
Again, Naruto didnt even need to tap into the 9tail power, but imagine if he did.
Definitely not an underdog here.


Pein?
It could go either way.
I dont know if Pein wouldve beat 9tail Naruto, but at that point i think "Naruto" would cease to exist.


Other then Pein and Gaara, no one else he fought you can make a case for him being an underdog against.
Not when we know how strong naruto is in that mode.

Yet all your observations/points shows the exact opposite,if you're given 'gifts' then you shouldn't have to work as hard as you do to 'control/use it right?

Well, he was only given one gift, which was the 9tails chakra given by his father, and no, he dosent have to work hard to control/use it.
It activates automatically in times of near death or emotional distress.

Can I ask a question how is Orochimaru a 4th Tier ninja?

I cant really put him in the tier with Itachi, since Itachi owned him at the age of 14? I believe, and then later on in the manga One paneled him.
And I know Jiriya could put up a better fight then that, and in my opinion he could beat Oro more times then not.
I know Oro beat the 3rd, but the 3rd in tier 2 is the 3rd in his prime, which would have beat Oro easily.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

Very good arguement and analysis there Jae. It's hard to disagree or argue with you here. I see the exact points you're making. I too don't feel that Naruto was ever at a disadvantage. Not once. As long as he has the 9tails he's always got the ultimate trump card.

But i do disagree with Putting Pein in the first tier and Jiraiya in the 3rd. Hell i still don't see how any of the Hokages even could take Itachi. So i'd put Itachi in the 1st tier as well. At least 2nd.

 

[Jae]

But i do disagree with Putting Pein in the first tier and Jiraiya in the 3rd. Hell i still don't see how any of the Hokages even could take Itachi. So i'd put Itachi in the 1st tier as well. At least 2nd.

Yeah, Pein probably belongs in the 2nd tier, but i just think 1 on 1 (1 on 6 lol), he can beat anyone.
You have to remember in the Naruto fight, he had to "hold back" (and i use that term loosely) on Naruto so he could capture him alive. And Deva Realm was out of commission most of the fight, while his other bodies were getting destroyed.
Fighting ALL the Peins at the sametime, with the dude in the back regenerating bodies if they go down, and having him be protected by DEVA Realm spamming Shinra Tensei every 5 seconds?


"PRIME" Madara definitely belongs on the 1st tier.
He's basically Itachi with more experience, higher chakra, EMS, and whatever that special power EMS gives you.
And the only one in history to not only fight PRIME MADARA evenly, but continuously defeat him, was the 1st Hokage.
The 3rd is called the "Greatest Hokage". So IMO, they all have to be on the same tier right below Rikkudo Senin.


And since Itachi is not on Prime Madara's level, and Jiriya is around Itachi's level, they have to be in the tier below.
The 4th should probably be in tier 3 too. The recent hype of chapters is probably why i put him in tier 2. He's supposed to have the highest ceiling of all the Hokages, but he died too early to get to that point. So like Dennis Green would say, I cant just Crown his ass. He's about to lose to a Madara who according to Itachi is "A shell of his former self" after his last battle with the 1st.



Tier 1
Rikudou sennin

Tier 2
Prime Madara
1st Hokage
3rd Hokage
Pein

Tier 3
Itachi
4th
Jiriya

 

[kidmegaii]

Yeah, Pein probably belongs in the 2nd tier, but i just think 1 on 1 (1 on 6 lol), he can beat anyone.
You have to remember in the Naruto fight, he had to "hold back" (and i use that term loosely) on Naruto so he could capture him alive. And Deva Realm was out of commission most of the fight, while his other bodies were getting destroyed.
Fighting ALL the Peins at the sametime, with the dude in the back regenerating bodies if they go down, and having him be protected by DEVA Realm spamming Shinra Tensei every 5 seconds?


"PRIME" Madara definitely belongs on the 1st tier.
He's basically Itachi with more experience, higher chakra, EMS, and whatever that special power EMS gives you.
And the only one in history to not only fight PRIME MADARA evenly, but continuously defeat him, was the 1st Hokage.
The 3rd is called the "Greatest Hokage". So IMO, they all have to be on the same tier right below Rikkudo Senin.


And since Itachi is not on Prime Madara's level, and Jiriya is around Itachi's level, they have to be in the tier below.
The 4th should probably be in tier 3 too. The recent hype of chapters is probably why i put him in tier 2. He's supposed to have the highest ceiling of all the Hokages, but he died too early to get to that point. So like Dennis Green would say, I cant just Crown his ass. He's about to lose to a Madara who according to Itachi is "A shell of his former self" after his last battle with the 1st.



Tier 1
Rikudou sennin

Tier 2
Prime Madara
1st Hokage
3rd Hokage
Pein

Tier 3
Itachi
4th
Jiriya

You got Minato in the 3rd tier with itachi and Jiraya you even got Itachi ahead of Jiraya & Minato

You had tier 1 right, but only two people belong in second tier and thats Pein and the 1st. Madara, Minato and the 3rd are in tier 3. Jiraya with sage mode probably deserves a slot in 3rd tier but him and itachi can hang in 4th.

 

[blaqueman]

Really?
To me they fight nothing alike.
Before Sasuke began spamming his Sharingan powers(after the Deidara fight) he used alot of tajitsu techniques, weapons, and Ninjutsu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K0ZGWLjPFU


Jae your analogies and proof of your view points are great, however I never said that Naruto and Sasuke fight alike I said that he (Sasuke)uses tactics/moves from other people,and to me he's never seemed to have 'created' his own, one of those tactics was a way of fighting that Naruto would've developed while on the battle field and its funny that the video clip you quoted above has Sasuke fighting against a Sound Ninja, in that fight he does a Fireball technique that masks a flying shuriken, which further proves my point of Sasuke not being 'brilliant'.


Naruto's tajitsu sucks, rarely uses a weapon, and he usually just sets up Feints (Kage Bushins), to set up his attacks.

This is true to a point somewhat, Sasuke was able to train/observe his Father and Brother and learn their tajitsu, who did Naruto originally learn from? Hence again proving my point of him being an underdog!



Naruto without using the 9tails power was defeated by Neji.
Finished.
There was nothing else he could do, His Chakra was sealed up and Neji would have gone for the Killing blow.
Naruto's NATURAL talents (which is what made him an "underdog", his fighting/ninja talents werent near the top rookies or other top ninjas) weren't good enough to beat Neji.

So he used his "Get out of Jail free card" for lack of a better phrase, to enable him to keep on fighting.
Who else in the Manga has that type of luxury? (besides Sasuke )
I know he's the main character and all, but with a power that wont let you die and comes to the rescue everytime you're about to be defeated, how can you be an underdog?
Just about everytime Naruto's defeated or about to die, whether consciously or subconsciously, his 9tail power leaks out to save him.

So I guess in a sense we should also strip Gaara and Sasuke of what makes them special, hell even Neji can fall into that mix, for if he didn't have his 'chakra eyes' he won't be shit either!


You're proving my point for me.
It's not how much he uses his "Gift".
It's WHEN.
WHEN Naruto (consciously or subconsciously) uses the 9tail power, it's when all other options are spent and hes about to lose. (His life)

I guess we're both proving each other now

All the techniques that Jiriya taught him to use with his natural talents didnt mean anything in the end. Did It?

All the techniques??? The guy taught the kid the basics, which no one wanted to do and 'gave' him a couple of moves, RE: Rasegan and to sign the contract with the frogs, the ninja barely got training !

He was beat up, exhausted, and out of Chakra, and to make matters worse, He was about to be crushed/sinked to death.
So he used his GOOJF Card to keep going.

Well to be fair to the guy, he was really supposed to learn how to use his 'Gift' the first time didn't go to well for Jiriya


Nah man, Pein had him down for the count. Naruto's body was full of rods (Pein intentionally missed his vital organs to capture him alive) and Naruto couldnt move and wasnt in Sage mode anymore.

I won't agree with you here, it was already proven that Pein had pushed himself extensively after using his first ultimate move to destroy Konoha, when Naruto came in he needed the 9tails to extend his life, he was on Death's door already! If you've forgotten please take note RE: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/429/10/

That's defeated no matter which way you slice it. What else could he do that didnt involve the 9tail chakra?
Pein had defeated Naruto in Sage Mode.

Pein didn't defeat him physically it was a mental defeat by asking him what he could do to stop all wars, and Naruto realizing his bullshit 'my Ninja way' answer wasn't going to solve his dilemma made him lose his 'battle cool'see this here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/09/ and also see for yourself his father explains it best here RE: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/11/

Now when sweetcheeks Hinata comes downs and triggers Naruto to go into tailed form, THAT allowed him to escape the black chakra rods holding him down.
So once again, the 9tail power saved his life.

Hey the only girl to acknowledge me and give me some sweet pussy I'd go 10 tails and fleck up everything as well, ah but you are wrong, for he was CAPTURED while in 9 TAILS form or have you forgotten already? What do I see here ? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/08/





What are his feats "without" using the 9tail chakra?
& Why does he have to be in control?
It's like Gaara's ultimate protection.
Then Sand gaurds him whether he wants it to or not.
Basically meaning Naruto will never lose his life because the kyubbi is protecting him,and its strong enough to take on just about anything in the manga.
Naruto would have been dead countless times if it wasnt for the 9tails

The Kyuubi is a double edged sword and while it protects it also destroys, I agree with your point of Naruto dying without his 'gift', but a simple fact that you're forgetting here, this 'MADARA' was the same man that may have killed his father, his father realized that this guy was/is his greatest enemy, and to make sure that his son will win, he gave him an 'edge' to use in battle see this link http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/08/




Exactly, he never goes into battle thinking hes going to use the Kyuubi chakra.
I'm sure he thinks he dosent need it and can defeat his enimes without it. He dosent even like to use it.
Unfortunately for him, almost every strong enemy he's faced has had him on the brink of death and about to be defeated/killed.
And then either he says "Aight, Fck this sht, bring out this 9tail chakra,...........or he subconsciously uses it through strong emotions.
Then, Wa La, victory!

Now look, you could make a point that the 9tails chakra is just a part of Naruto, so in essence, it IS his natural power.

I'd say ok, then with that in mind, in which fight from the whole series has Naruto been an underdog in, with that power at his disposal from the start?
It dosent matter if Naruto knew how to call on it or not, the 9tails will Always lend him his strength if he's about to die, or if narutos serious enough, he'll trigger it subconsciously.
So with that in mind, and us knowing the power the kyuubi has and what it can do, who can he possibly be an underdog to in a life or death battle?

Lets say in part 1, the max he could use was what? Let's say 3tails?

Haku?
We saw what happened here with a one tail Naruto, Haku wouldve been killed by Naruto in less then a minute had Naruto not pulled his punch at the end.
So in what way was he an underdog?



Neji?
Going in, in what way is he an underdog?
He wasnt even in tailed form when he was giving Neji fits.
He just had the shroud.
When they both blew each other back, Naruto could have just RE-upped the 9tail chakra, but there was no need, he found a smarter way to beat Neji.


Gaara?
You could make a case for Gaara being the favorite, but IMO 3tail Naruto is about equal or better though.

Gaara is actually 7 tails and weaker than the tailed beast in Naruto, so its only obvious that he'd lose



Kiba?
Naruto beat this fool in base mode.
What could Kiba possibly do or use if the 9tail chakra activated?



On to part 2, where he now has access to all the tails if no one calms him down.


Diedra against 5 or more tailed Naruto?
Anything other then his ultimate technique wont work on Naruto, and then he still loses.


Orochimaru?
He was lucky to escape with his life.



Kakazu?
Again, Naruto didnt even need to tap into the 9tail power, but imagine if he did.
Definitely not an underdog here.


Pein?
It could go either way.
I dont know if Pein wouldve beat 9tail Naruto, but at that point i think "Naruto" would cease to exist.

I don't think so either, but who knows


Other then Pein and Gaara, no one else he fought you can make a case for him being an underdog against.
Not when we know how strong naruto is in that mode.





Well, he was only given one gift, which was the 9tails chakra given by his father, and no, he dosent have to work hard to control/use it.
It activates automatically in times of near death or emotional distress.




I cant really put him in the tier with Itachi, since Itachi owned him at the age of 14? I believe, and then later on in the manga One paneled him.
And I know Jiriya could put up a better fight then that, and in my opinion he could beat Oro more times then not.
I know Oro beat the 3rd, but the 3rd in tier 2 is the 3rd in his prime, which would have beat Oro easily.

My major concern right now with this story is the 'Ultimate Weapon' RE: the Sharigan, now we had a person who possesed the ultimate eyes the 'father' of all the eye techniques, yet this 'Madara' character is the ultimate bad arse? The story at times to me doesn't make much sense @ all!

 

[Jae]

You got Minato in the 3rd tier with itachi and Jiraya you even got Itachi ahead of Jiraya & Minato

You had tier 1 right, but only two people belong in second tier and thats Pein and the 1st. Madara, Minato and the 3rd are in tier 3. Jiraya with sage mode probably deserves a slot in 3rd tier but him and itachi can hang in 4th.

I wanst ranking them in order when i put them in each tier.
It just means they're all on that same level.

But who's to say Itachi dosent belong ahead of Jiriya?
You could make a case for it.
Jiriya's weakness is Genjutsu, and Itachi is the strongest ninja in the manga at that.
And Itachi with Susanoo combined with the Totsuka Sword & Yata's Mirror, Amareatersu, & Tsukuyomi, is more then enough to stand equally with the 4th.




"PRIME" Madara should always be in a tier above the 4th.
The 4th will lose to Madara somehow in this chapter otherwise the 4th wouldve finished him off.
Madaras no where near as powerful as he was in his Prime though.
So "PRIME" Madara should be above above the 4th.
And if you have the 1st Hokage in the second tier, you have to include the 3rd Hokage also.
Because according to Iruka, the 3rd was said to be the strongest Hokage Konoha ever had.

 

[Jae]

and its funny that the video clip you quoted above has Sasuke fighting against a Sound Ninja, in that fight he does a Fireball technique that masks a flying shuriken, which further proves my point of Sasuke not being 'brilliant'

All ninjas fight like that.
With hidden feints to set up secret attacks.
Just because we saw Naruto use a hidden feint attack first with a shuriken, dosent mean it wasnt in Sasuke's arsenal already.

This is true to a point somewhat, Sasuke was able to train/observe his Father and Brother and learn their tajitsu, who did Naruto originally learn from? Hence again proving my point of him being an underdog!

He was an underdog as long as he used his "own" natural abilities.
Because his talents at the beginning were worse then everyone else. (Except Chakra capacity)
His hand to Hand combat was poor, the only jutsu he used was Kage Bunshun, and the only way he could "Finish" someone off was somehow gettiung close enough to use Rasengan.
Hence being at a disadvantage every fight/"Underdog".
But the only person i remember Naruto beating with JUST his natural talents by himself is KIBA.

So why is NARUTO undefeated after so many fights? Against VERY strong opponents?

Because if you give him the power of the 9tails to use, then you give him IMO the strongest "Power" in the Manga, (besides the Juubi himself).
So if you have the strongest power in the manga, you're never at a disadvantage.

So I guess in a sense we should also strip Gaara and Sasuke of what makes them special, hell even Neji can fall into that mix, for if he didn't have his 'chakra eyes' he won't be shit either!

Well people already do strip Sasuke of his accomplishments because they say the Sharingan is Broken.
Isn't that why you guys hate him?
Sharingan Spam?



Gaara is a wierd case.
His monster made sure Gaara was always protected (Ultimate Defense) and one of the strongest in the manga.
But he died, his monster was removed, yet he still has all his sand powers, even his ultimate defense still remains, and is even stronger WITHOUT his monster.
So what exactly was the monster doing for Gaara in part 1?
What was Gaara's natural abilities, and what was the monsters?

You cant say the same for Naruto. (That he'd be STRONGER without Kyuubi)


And Neji's power was handed down from birth.
He wasnt given something that's not natural to him at birth to use as a powerup.
Also, The Byakugan dosent grant you the power to escape death after you're defeated either.

I won't agree with you here, it was already proven that Pein had pushed himself extensively after using his first ultimate move to destroy Konoha, when Naruto came in he needed the 9tails to extend his life, he was on Death's door already!

And yet he still defeated Sage Mode Naruto, you agree?
If you dont agree, please tell me how he was going to escape from being nailed to the ground, or how was he going to summon another Sage clone with Pein right there ready to Shira Tensei him?

ah but you are wrong, for he was CAPTURED while in 9 TAILS form or have you forgotten already? What do I see here ?

He wasnt 9 tails when Pein used that technique to capture him, at the time he was only 7-8 tailed, because he was about to break OUT of it as he was turning 9tails.


But that's not what I'm talking about when i say he had captured Naruto.
I'm talking about here
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/435/014/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/435/015/

The battle is OVER.
The only way to escape here and keep the battle going is to now use the 9tails chakra.

 

[kidmegaii]

I wanst ranking them in order when i put them in each tier.
It just means they're all on that same level.

But who's to say Itachi dosent belong ahead of Jiriya?
You could make a case for it.
Jiriya's weakness is Genjutsu, and Itachi is the strongest ninja in the manga at that.
And Itachi with Susanoo combined with the Totsuka Sword & Yata's Mirror, Amareatersu, & Tsukuyomi, is more then enough to stand equally with the 4th.

Jiraya doesn't know how to use Genjustu, that doesn't mean that he imcapable of defending it. Sage mode he would absolutely overwhelm Itachi with speed and power.

He can stand up to the 4th but as equals nope,


"PRIME" Madara should always be in a tier above the 4th.
The 4th will lose to Madara somehow in this chapter.
Madaras no where near as powerful as he was in his Prime though.
So "PRIME" Madara should be above above the 4th.
And if you have the 1st Hokage in the second tier, you have to include the 3rd Hokage also.
Because according to Iruka, the 3rd was said to be the strongest Hokage Konoha ever had.[/QUOTE]

We'll see how the 4tth lose in this chp lol: he's gonna leaving madara on the floor leaking looking for the amberlamps) the only thing that saving madara a repeat of the fight with the first is the fact that Minato can't control the fox like the first can. Cause you know he would of have madara head mounted on his wall on top of his fire place.

/after years of battling Madara with on his MS and still being regarded as the best shinobi alive. He took on Madara with EMS and kyuubi and left the victor he definitely belong in 2nd tier with Pein.

Who's opinions hold more weight, Jiraya and Kakashi who called the 4th the best of the best, Or irukas opinion of the 3rd.

 

[blaqueman]

All ninjas fight like that.
With hidden feints to set up secret attacks.
Just because we saw Naruto use a hidden feint attack first with a shuriken, dosent mean it wasnt in Sasuke's arsenal already.


Yet we never saw him use these tactics before Naruto introduced that 'feint' attack to him!




He was an underdog as long as he used his "own" natural abilities.
Because his talents at the beginning were worse then everyone else. (Except Chakra capacity)
His hand to Hand combat was poor, the only jutsu he used was Kage Bunshun, and the only way he could "Finish" someone off was somehow gettiung close enough to use Rasengan.
Hence being at a disadvantage every fight/"Underdog".
But the only person i remember Naruto beating with JUST his natural talents by himself is KIBA.

Indeed, it has already been proven that he's a close combat combatant, and in creating that spinning orb shit can't remember the name can he 'counter' his opponents with a long range attack, still however isn't that what makes you the Underdog? If you've only got 1 thing that you can do well you use it to the best of your ability with your 'Gift' or not? Especially when faced with opponents who outclass you in every way possible!

So why is NARUTO undefeated after so many fights? Against VERY strong opponents?

The name of the story is NARUTO by the way, also I won't say that he's undefeated, he takes a licking in most of his fights, his only reason for constantly standing is him not giving up,his 'Nin' way, isn't that an Underdog attitude? Always having to believe/prove yourself ?

Because if you give him the power of the 9tails to use, then you give him IMO the strongest "Power" in the Manga, (besides the Juubi himself).
So if you have the strongest power in the manga, you're never at a disadvantage.

Giving someone a power, and someone having total control of that power are two completely different things. I'm not saying that Naruto is completely weak, however its a known fact that Naruto is one of the weakest skill set Ninja in all of Konoha and everything that he's done so far he's worked hard at it, save for his emotional outbursts to which at the times are completely understandable








Well people already do strip Sasuke of his accomplishments because they say the Sharingan is Broken.
Isn't that why you guys hate him?
Sharingan Spam?

I don't think ppl stip Sasuke of his 'accomplishments', however, its a bit overwhelming when you've got a Sub character having more development/story time than the main character, also it comes across cheeky that the Sharingan is the all 'powerful' eye trick, when its been stated before that the Sage of Six Paths eyes is where the power set is supposed to be strongest!



Gaara is a wierd case.
His monster made sure Gaara was always protected (Ultimate Defense) and one of the strongest in the manga.
But he died, his monster was removed, yet he still has all his sand powers, even his ultimate defense still remains, and is even stronger WITHOUT his monster.
So what exactly was the monster doing for Gaara in part 1?
What was Gaara's natural abilities, and what was the monsters?

If I can remember correctly Gaara's mother is the reason for his ultimate defense, her sacrifice to ensure that he lived is the reason why his ultimate sacrifice is strong, opposed to that, I find that Kishi at times seems to forget his characters

You cant say the same for Naruto. (That he'd be STRONGER without Kyuubi)

Truth be told we can't say anything for Naruto, if Jirayia had finished training him fully then we'd have known as it stands right now he needs all the help/techniques he can get


And Neji's power was handed down from birth.
He wasnt given something that's not natural to him at birth to use as a powerup.
Also, The Byakugan dosent grant you the power to escape death after you're defeated either.

Ah neither does the Sharingan, however, that hasn't stopped Kishi from inviting supreme ways for his 'beloved' ppl to survive at all costs! see for example http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/424/16/






And yet he still defeated Sage Mode Naruto, you agree?
If you dont agree, please tell me how he was going to escape from being nailed to the ground, or how was he going to summon another Sage clone with Pein right there ready to Shira Tensei him?

I can't tell you how he was going to defeat him in sage mode, only Kishi would be able to do that, however, I still stand by my analogy that his defeat was a mental one and not physical owing to the fact that he didn't believe in himself and allowed Pein to psychologically defeat him as I proved to you from here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/05/, here, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/06/, here, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/07/, oh look even here, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/08/, here as well, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/09/, hmmm should I continue? Why not, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/10/ and what was his answer look at his face here, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/13/, 'His Nin Way had no bearing in that world he was currently in with Pein, his defeat http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/14/, read it carefully, we both know that Naruto doesn't give up, yet faced with the hardest question he wasn't able to just beat his chest, smile and point his stupid thumb in the air and shout that's MY NINJA WAY, this was a hard question given to him, he accepted his defeat that there wasn't anything that he could do to give the Ninja World the peace they so desperately needed, in fact look at his 'last stand' here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/10/.






He wasnt 9 tails when Pein used that technique to capture him, at the time he was only 7-8 tailed, because he was about to break OUT of it as he was turning 9tails.

I've already proven to you that Pein had already captured him in 9 tails, but let me give you the reference again, here you go, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/08/, if you want to be 'cheeky' I'll help with this reference but notice Pein said that he was going to make a stronger 1 http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/02/


But that's not what I'm talking about when i say he had captured Naruto.
I'm talking about here
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/435/014/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/435/015/

I know what you were referring to, however, please see my point above, to me we still don't know what Naruto would've done in that situation

The battle is OVER.
The only way to escape here and keep the battle going is to now use the 9tails chakra.

Yet he didn't use the 9 Tails power, his father gave him his pep talk, as seen here,http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/11/, his world was all 'bright' again, his will of FIRE had return and we see him do a Teleportation to here,http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/17/, what FORM is he in there Jae?

Jiraya doesn't know how to use Genjustu, that doesn't mean that he imcapable of defending it. Sage mode he would absolutely overwhelm Itachi with speed and power.

The thing is Jiraya had a lot of tricks up his sleeve, and when he fought Akatsuki the first time, he held it down against 2 members by himself while protecting 2 immature shinobis, notice while fighting those guys he didn't go into Sage mode at all!

He can stand up to the 4th but as equals nope,

Nah he already said that the 4th was way better than him


"PRIME" Madara should always be in a tier above the 4th.
The 4th will lose to Madara somehow in this chapter.
Madaras no where near as powerful as he was in his Prime though.
So "PRIME" Madara should be above above the 4th.
And if you have the 1st Hokage in the second tier, you have to include the 3rd Hokage also.
Because according to Iruka, the 3rd was said to be the strongest Hokage Konoha ever had.

The thing is sadly we're calling the guy Madara but we don't really know who he is as yet, we've never seen his face, we've only heard the stories, hell it could be Kakashi best friend who gave him his eye, no one knows except for that idiot Kishi

We'll see how the 4tth lose in this chp lol: he's gonna leaving madara on the floor leaking looking for the amberlamps) the only thing that saving madara a repeat of the fight with the first is the fact that Minato can't control the fox like the first can. Cause you know he would of have madara head mounted on his wall on top of his fire place.

/after years of battling Madara with on his MS and still being regarded as the best shinobi alive. He took on Madara with EMS and kyuubi and left the victor he definitely belong in 2nd tier with Pein.

Who's opinions hold more weight, Jiraya and Kakashi who called the 4th the best of the best, Or irukas opinion of the 3rd.[/QUOTE]


I agree with you there, I don't think Iruka knew the 4th like Kakashi or Jiraya, hell he didn't even know that Jiraya was one of the Sannin so we can tell that he was biased to the 3rd, the thing is when the 4th was alive he taught many techniques to all of them, a Ninja giving away techniques like Lotto tickets that should tell you the depth of knowledge/wisdom the guy possessed!

 

[Jae]

Sage mode he would absolutely overwhelm Itachi with speed and power.

Funny, because Naruto having Sage Mode, still felt he needed to get stronger to take on MS Sasuke.

And unfortunately for Jiriya, Sage mode takes awhile to setup.
And good luck fighting off Itachi in the meantime, all while trying to avoid eye contact so not to be caught in Tsukuyomi.
And even if Jiriya by some miracle can break out of it, he still needs time to do so.
Which will give Itachi just enough time to either

1) Finish him off with Amaterasu
2) Trap him with Totsuka Sword

And if it comes down to it, Itachi can use Susanoo and Yata's Mirror for his Jiriya's attacks.
Remember, he only has to hit Jiriya ONCE with the Totsuka sword, and the fight is over,
And he can swing it fast enough to hit somebody in mid sentence without them even realizing whats happening (Orochimaru)

So i'd say Itachi is more then equipped to handle Jiriya.

We'll see how the 4th lose in this chp lol: he's gonna leaving madara on the floor leaking looking for the amberlamps) the only thing that saving madara a repeat of the fight with the first is the fact that Minato can't control the fox like the first can. Cause you know he would of have madara head mounted on his wall on top of his fire place.

I would hope so for the sake of your argument, because if he cant even beat a "shell of his former self" Madara, he wouldnt stand a chance against a Prime Mada + Kyuubi as his summon.

He took on Madara with EMS and kyuubi and left the victor he definitely belong in 2nd tier with Pein.

Were you talking about the 4th here
I wouldn't equate "Dying" with "left the victor", but that's just me

 

[Jae]

Yet we never saw him use these tactics before Naruto introduced that 'feint' attack to him!

lol, c'mon man, be fair, up until that point (The Zabuza Arc) we only saw Sasuke fight 1 time, and that was a quick spar with Kakashi.

Indeed, it has already been proven that he's a close combat combatant, and in creating that spinning orb shit can't remember the name can he 'counter' his opponents with a long range attack, still however isn't that what makes you the Underdog? If you've only got 1 thing that you can do well you use it to the best of your ability with your 'Gift' or not? Especially when faced with opponents who outclass you in every way possible!

Again, I'm not faulting him for that.
I'm actually agreeing with you here, he's an Underdog in this instance.

the name of the story is NARUTO by the way, also I won't say that he's undefeated, he takes a licking in most of his fights, his only reason for constantly standing is him not giving up,his 'Nin' way,

Taking a licking dosent mean he's still not undefeated.
Undefeated is Undefeated.
And there's no way he should be undefeated with his level of skill going against the type of ninjas he does.
I dont care how much of an asswhipping he can take.
You still have to be able to dish it out.

isn't that an Underdog attitude? Always having to believe/prove yourself ?

I wouldnt use that definition.
Because champions have that attitude too.
Kobe Bryant is a 5 time world champion, but it's been said no one is more focused during the offseason/days off to get better then him, just based of his insane 3am practice routines.
And he's always trying to prove himself better then what people give him credit for.
I wouldn't classify him as an underdog though.


Underdog to me is when the odds are HEAVILY stacked against you.

Giving someone a power, and someone having total control of that power are two completely different things.

If that power activates by itself when you need it most, does it even matter?

however its a known fact that Naruto is one of the weakest skill set Ninja in all of Konoha

Yet apparently that dosen't mean anything, because every strong Ninja who opposes him loses to that weak skillset.
Does that make sense to you?

and everything that he's done so far he's worked hard at

Can i ask you a question?
In terms of accomplishments, what has he "DONE" without the help of the Kyuubi?

its a bit overwhelming when you've got a Sub character having more development/story time than the main character

I think thats the problem, Kishi dosent view Sasuke as a side character

truth be told we can't say anything for Naruto, if Jirayia had finished training him fully then we'd have known

Nah man, there's NOTHING Jiriya could have taught him that wouldve been more valuable then having the Kyuubi chakra at his disposal.

Ah neither does the Sharingan, however, that hasn't stopped Kishi from inviting supreme ways for his 'beloved' ppl to survive at all costs! see for example

I agree.

I've already proven to you that Pein had already captured him in 9 tails,

Like i said, that's false, we dont even know if the 9Tails CAN be caught using that technique.
That feat hasnt been shown in the manga.
What you linked is the 9tails BREAKING OUT
Yeah Pein said he'd make a bigger one (a spent Pein that's about to keel over might i remind you) that dosent mean it was going to capture the 9tails, the Kyuubi himself.

Yet he didn't use the 9 Tails power,

Really?
He didnt escape this?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/06/

by doing this?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/15/

 

[blaqueman]

lol, c'mon man, be fair, up until that point (The Zabuza Arc) we only saw Sasuke fight 1 time, and that was a quick spar with Kakashi.


Touche my brother we both will take our 'respective' wins here


Again, I'm not faulting him for that.
I'm actually agreeing with you here, he's an Underdog in this instance.


True



Taking a licking dosent mean he's still not undefeated.
Undefeated is Undefeated.
And there's no way he should be undefeated with his level of skill going against the type of ninjas he does.
I dont care how much of an asswhipping he can take.
You still have to be able to dish it out.

its my observation that manga writers tend to write their characters from a 'weak' perspective, then over time they build up their characters to show you that they are actually 'Uber Strong' not only with confidence/attitude but also Power set as well, I'll agree to your point above somewhat, but their must be a psychological attachment to the main character by the audience!


I wouldnt use that definition.
Because champions have that attitude too.
Kobe Bryant is a 5 time world champion, but it's been said no one is more focused during the offseason/days off to get better then him, just based of his insane 3am practice routines.
And he's always trying to prove himself better then what people give him credit for.
I wouldn't classify him as an underdog though.

I hear you kid, and with your analogy one can agree with you, you bring sound logic to your arguments , but Kobe isn't an Underdog, and has the love of the 'people' to date Naruto only just barely accomplished that feat (taking as though the mofo is a real person my gawd !!!)


Underdog to me is when the odds are HEAVILY stacked against you.

Haven't they always been and yes we know about the gift






If that power activates by itself when you need it most, does it even matter?

I think it does, Gaara does it as well !




Yet apparently that dosen't mean anything, because every strong Ninja who opposes him loses to that weak skillset.
Does that make sense to you?

Ah here you and I agree, I've said some weeks ago I think that I don't understand this 'so called' story of Naruto, meaning the Hokage is the ultimate head ninja, NAruto's father is the 4th, he's the Kyuubi, ok so the villagers are scared of him, yet, the 3rd, Jiraya, Kakashi, and probably the old ppl knew that, yet they all ostracized him as though he's a leaper,to me if you've got such a 'treasure' you'll treat it as the Golden Child not shun it! Hmm who knows, all in all the story is doing what its meant to do, have us 'excited'/debating about it!




Can i ask you a question?
In terms of accomplishments, what has he "DONE" without the help of the Kyuubi?

Hmmm, good question, I would say this last fight I'd technically give him the 'win' here without the power of the Kyuubi, while true he did have a 'scuffle' with Pein it can be seen that he took him down mostly by himself, apart from that the first fight with the guy that made him steal the scroll may have been his only 'Major' accomplishment without the fox





I think thats the problem, Kishi dosent view Sasuke as a side character

Ah so true, the story should've been called Sasuke the Red Eyed Fairy



Nah man, there's NOTHING Jiriya could have taught him that wouldve been more valuable then having the Kyuubi chakra at his disposal.

I disagree somewhat, Jiriya taught Pein, Yahiko and the Paper Bitch, Naruto still had to learn his Chakra type, and from what I've observed, Kakashi isn't much of a teacher when it comes to him





I agree.




Like i said, that's false, we dont even know if the 9Tails CAN be caught using that technique.
That feat hasnt been shown in the manga.
What you linked is the 9tails BREAKING OUT
Yeah Pein said he'd make a bigger one (a spent Pein that's about to keel over might i remind you) that dosent mean it was going to capture the 9tails, the Kyuubi himself.

Actually you and I both agree that Pein was still putting up more than a good fight with his God Realm body, still don't understand how he could loose against the Salamander guy with all his power/abilities but that's a story for another time I guess. Yeah we're certain that the nine tails could be captured Pein is the bearing of the Six Paths, a gengutsu would've been nothing to do once he was able to hold the 9 Tails




Really?
He didnt escape this?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/06/

by doing this?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/15/

Ah but you forgot this my friend http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/12/, followed by this http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/14/, Pussy is a wonderful drug, once addicted you can not be cured and worse yet, you got a chance to sniff the pussy but didn't take it out, man oh man, what would you do in that position?

 

[kidmegaii]

Funny, because Naruto having Sage Mode, still felt he needed to get stronger to take on MS Sasuke.

But yet Sasuke is asking for the EMS so he can fight Naruto.

And unfortunately for Jiriya, Sage mode takes awhile to setup.
And good luck fighting off Itachi in the meantime, all while trying to avoid eye contact so not to be caught in Tsukuyomi.
And even if Jiriya by some miracle can break out of it, he still needs time to do so.
Which will give Itachi just enough time to either

1) Finish him off with Amaterasu
2) Trap him with Totsuka Sword

And if it comes down to it, Itachi can use Susanoo and Yata's Mirror for his Jiriya's attacks.
Remember, he only has to hit Jiriya ONCE with the Totsuka sword, and the fight is over,
And he can swing it fast enough to hit somebody in mid sentence without them even realizing whats happening (Orochimaru)

So i'd say Itachi is more then equipped to handle Jiriya.

Itachi he had is opportunity fight Jiraya and he dipped out, he admitted to the fact that at best he and Jiraya would end up killing each other and that was Jiraya without Sage mode.

And you know how much stronger, faster and more durable Sage mode makes the user. You think Itachi isn't know for has a huge amount of charka or stamina, you think he can survive long enough to repeatedly use those moves.

I would hope so for the sake of your argument, because if he cant even beat a "shell of his former self" Madara, he wouldnt stand a chance against a Prime Mada + Kyuubi as his summon.

Madara ain't getting up, the story already said Minato seal the fox in Naruto, I'm sure if madara was able he would of stopped him.

Were you talking about the 4th here
I wouldn't equate "Dying" with "left the victor", but that's just me

I was talking about the 1st.

 

[blaqueman]

But yet Sasuke is asking for the EMS so he can fight Naruto.




Itachi he had is opportunity fight Jiraya and he dipped out, he admitted to the fact that at best he and Jiraya would end up killing each other and that was Jiraya without Sage mode.

And you know how much stronger, faster and more durable Sage mode makes the user. You think Itachi isn't know for has a huge amount of charka or stamina, you think he can survive long enough to repeatedly use those moves.




Madara ain't getting up, the story already said Minato seal the fox in Naruto, I'm sure if madara was able he would of stopped him.


I don't know about that 1 kid, to me it seemed as though 'Madara' was an unbelievably strong opponent, so strong that he was forced to do that final jutsu to subjugate his plans, further for that time he even said as much to naruto as seen here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/08/, only time will tell but 1 thing is for certain in all Japanese Mangas/Animes those mofos love to talk thru a fight and don't just fight/kill the men when they get the opportunity, so this week expect some, 'Or you did your Thunder God technique, well I've got ultimate Fag eye counter to block you' type of story B.S.



I was talking about the 1st.

Man this reply system sucks monkeys balls, ah well see my above post for my viewpoint

 

[kidmegaii]

Man this reply system sucks monkeys balls, ah well see my above post for my viewpoint

Took that statement as border line bullshit. We all saw what Pain did to that village, sucking souls of people like Shang Tsung, chokeslamming cats like the undertaker, and for the grand finale turned that bitch into a parking lot. It's like the author drawings are telling one story and his text had something in mind.

That shit read like the "New Naruto" nonsense Yamato was spouting, he still ended the sasuke obsessed jackass with a bigger rasengan just like the beginning of part 2. You didn't roll you eyes at the pretty dismissive tone of Pain the author was sending, while trying to establish another villian who even in 50+ yrs to couldn't accomplish what Pain did in 50 minutes?

That statment was pure stupidity

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

The thing is sadly we're calling the guy Madara but we don't really know who he is as yet, we've never seen his face, we've only heard the stories, hell it could be Kakashi best friend who gave him his eye, no one knows except for that idiot Kishi

We'll see how the 4tth lose in this chp lol: he's gonna leaving madara on the floor leaking looking for the amberlamps) the only thing that saving madara a repeat of the fight with the first is the fact that Minato can't control the fox like the first can. Cause you know he would of have madara head mounted on his wall on top of his fire place.

/after years of battling Madara with on his MS and still being regarded as the best shinobi alive. He took on Madara with EMS and kyuubi and left the victor he definitely belong in 2nd tier with Pein.

Who's opinions hold more weight, Jiraya and Kakashi who called the 4th the best of the best, Or irukas opinion of the 3rd.

I agree with you there, I don't think Iruka knew the 4th like Kakashi or Jiraya, hell he didn't even know that Jiraya was one of the Sannin so we can tell that he was biased to the 3rd, the thing is when the 4th was alive he taught many techniques to all of them, a Ninja giving away techniques like Lotto tickets that should tell you the depth of knowledge/wisdom the guy possessed![/QUOTE]

Blaque about your examples of Naruto being defeated. You don't count him as being defeated in non sage mode with 6 spikes sticking out of him laying on the ground unable to move?

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I always liked Itachi the best. I don't see how you guys can discredit him like that with all the skills he had. I don't think any of the Hokage's could have taken him. I don't even see how the 1st could have been so bad. Hell all he could do was grow trees. All those abilities Jae said Itachi had and you're coming down to a guy who just makes wood? wth? What's wood going to do to the black flames? And the Ultimate defense skeleton he forms around him?

 

[blaqueman]

I agree with you there, I don't think Iruka knew the 4th like Kakashi or Jiraya, hell he didn't even know that Jiraya was one of the Sannin so we can tell that he was biased to the 3rd, the thing is when the 4th was alive he taught many techniques to all of them, a Ninja giving away techniques like Lotto tickets that should tell you the depth of knowledge/wisdom the guy possessed!

Blaque about your examples of Naruto being defeated. You don't count him as being defeated in non sage mode with 6 spikes sticking out of him laying on the ground unable to move?[/QUOTE]

Legacy I never said that he wasn't defeated when Pein had him 'down' but Jae was making it out as though he went 9 Tails and defeated him with his 'Ultimate Gift' I was simply showing him that this time he didn't rely on his 'gift' per se but himself.

I always liked Itachi the best. I don't see how you guys can discredit him like that with all the skills he had. I don't think any of the Hokage's could have taken him. I don't even see how the 1st could have been so bad. Hell all he could do was grow trees. All those abilities Jae said Itachi had and you're coming down to a guy who just makes wood? wth? What's wood going to do to the black flames? And the Ultimate defense skeleton he forms around him?

Heck Itachi is the only Sharingan user who gets a 'pass' in my book, the mofo was simply bad arsed and to a point, 'I've got my abilities I'll fleck you up, no questions about it, no break downs, no story telling, simple and to the point step in the Ring let me cut your arse and move on! If all the blasted Sharingan users were like that I may have respected them more, putting them all on the Sage of Six Paths when they barely have 1 of the Sages' abilities is stretching the story but ah well Kishi is the creator I'll gleam his 'thoughts' some more

 

[ansatsusha_gouki]

Yeah, Pein probably belongs in the 2nd tier, but i just think 1 on 1 (1 on 6 lol), he can beat anyone.
You have to remember in the Naruto fight, he had to "hold back" (and i use that term loosely) on Naruto so he could capture him alive. And Deva Realm was out of commission most of the fight, while his other bodies were getting destroyed.
Fighting ALL the Peins at the sametime, with the dude in the back regenerating bodies if they go down, and having him be protected by DEVA Realm spamming Shinra Tensei every 5 seconds?


"PRIME" Madara definitely belongs on the 1st tier.
He's basically Itachi with more experience, higher chakra, EMS, and whatever that special power EMS gives you.
And the only one in history to not only fight PRIME MADARA evenly, but continuously defeat him, was the 1st Hokage.
The 3rd is called the "Greatest Hokage". So IMO, they all have to be on the same tier right below Rikkudo Senin.


And since Itachi is not on Prime Madara's level, and Jiriya is around Itachi's level, they have to be in the tier below.
The 4th should probably be in tier 3 too. The recent hype of chapters is probably why i put him in tier 2. He's supposed to have the highest ceiling of all the Hokages, but he died too early to get to that point. So like Dennis Green would say, I cant just Crown his ass. He's about to lose to a Madara who according to Itachi is "A shell of his former self" after his last battle with the 1st.



Tier 1
Rikudou sennin

Tier 2
Prime Madara
1st Hokage
3rd Hokage
Pein

Tier 3
Itachi
4th
Jiriya

I disagree with you putting Madara over the 1st Hokage......Madara got his ass kicked twice by the First Hokage

And the Fourth and the Second Hokage should be in the same category as the first Hokage.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

Legacy I never said that he wasn't defeated when Pein had him 'down' but Jae was making it out as though he went 9 Tails and defeated him with his 'Ultimate Gift' I was simply showing him that this time he didn't rely on his 'gift' per se but himself.

Hmmm i don't believe so. If i remember right he got out of being pinned to the ground by 9 tailing it. He was still stuck to the ground after Pein hit Hinata. And then he went all Tails and stuff. So how do you see this as him himself getting out of it?

 

[blaqueman]

Hmmm i don't believe so. If i remember right he got out of being pinned to the ground by 9 tailing it. He was still stuck to the ground after Pein hit Hinata. And then he went all Tails and stuff. So how do you see this as him himself getting out of it?

Legacy bro, you're still misunderstanding the point I made, I never said that he didn't go 9 Tails, I said that he 'won' the fight on his without much 'use' of the 9 Tails, Jae and I were discussing that Naruto always had to tap into his 'gift' RE: the Power of the 9 Tails, I agreed to a point on his argument but clarified with my own observations as well.

 

[blaqueman]

Ok guys its out early lol, like Kishi isn't vex with me anymore !!! check the link http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/33928369/1

 

[Brandon Heat]

 

[ansatsusha_gouki]

this week's manga was aiight

 

[blaqueman]

Well I stand completely corrected Naruto's Father is THAT ninja, guy took out 'MADARA' and the fox in 1 swift move, quite interesting, good way to set it up, no B.S. straight to the point of the story, wonder what next week's tale would be, and how would Naruto develop now as he knows the 'truth' will he still be chasing Sasuke's pants, or would he remember his dream of becoming the 'greatest' ninja, or would he say fuck it all let me get my chakra seeing pussy hmmm

 

[kidmegaii]

"A man of unfathomable power, who saw through all my moves"

 

[kidmegaii]

The real underdog in this story is Madara
At this point I hope he gets the kyuubi out of Naruto, poor dude can't catch a break.

 

[blaqueman]

The real underdog in this story is Madara
At this point I hope he gets the kyuubi out of Naruto, poor dude can't catch a break.

So bloody true, reminds me of an episode of Tom & Jerry, no matter what that cat tried to do to that mouse his arse was always handed to him Poor guy, you'd think by now he'd give up on his 'dreams'

 

[Jae]

Ah but you forgot this my friend http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/12/, followed by this http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/437/14/, Pussy is a wonderful drug, once addicted you can not be cured

True

But yet Sasuke is asking for the EMS so he can see again

fixed.

Plus, if you remember he told Itachi he planned to kill Madara next, so he's going to need that EMS powerup.

Itachi he had is opportunity fight Jiraya and he dipped out,

I have my own theory on this.
In chapter 1, Jiriya stated to Kakashi that he had a spy within Akatsuki .
The only person who that could possibly be in my opinion is Itachi.
Remember, this is the same guy who killed his whole clan just to keep Konaha safe.
The only reason Itachi joined Akatsuki in the first place was to keep an eye on the orginization and make sure it didnt make a move on Konaha.
That's why Madara never trusted Itachi and we all know had him spy'd on.
Which was indirectly (by Pein) through Kisame.
Madara trusted Kisame to carry this out even though he kept his identity hidden from him.
"You were closest to me"
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/02/


And even Kisame was perplexed when they were running from Jiriya
Kisame's exact words "Why is a retreat necessary..........FOR YOU?

he admitted to the fact that at best he and Jiraya would end up killing each other and that was Jiraya without Sage mode.

Convenient excuse to avoid suspicion from Kisame for a retreat. He had to hype up Jiriya's fighting prowess to make it seem like they had no chance.
But it's clearly hyperbole, I'll explain.

Itachi also said that both he and Kisame cannot beat Jiraiya.
Are we seriously going to sit here (Knowing how powerful Kisame and Itachi are) and discuss that Jiriya would defeat BOTH of them at the same time?
In Base Mode?

And Where's he going to get the time to gather chakra for sage mode?
Sage Mode Jiriya in no way shape or form is defeating Itachi+Kisame anyway.


Mind you, Oro and Jiriya were both part of "The 3 Great Sennins".
Though i believe Jiriya is stronger then Oro, it's not by a WIDE margin because they had to be comparable in some way.

Itachi defeated Oro when he was only 11 years old.
So why in the world, would he think that the best he could do was force a stalemate agaisnt Jiriya?


So Itachi was blowing that comment out his ass.
Not to mention the fact that an Itachi+Kisame combo wouldnt need to run from NOBODY in this manga, damn sure not BASE Jiriya

Like I said, convenient excuse.

You think Itachi isn't know for has a huge amount of charka or stamina, you think he can survive long enough to repeatedly use those moves?

He only needs to hit Jiriya ONCE, not repeatedly, with any 1 of these 3 attacks.


-If Jiriya gets caught in Amertasu, he's dead.
Only 2 people have "dodged" it, Sasuke (but Itachi was never trying to hit him with it for real, because Sasuke wouldve ended up dead, and remember, Itachi was trying NOT to kill him)

The other is Raikage
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/463/13/
and let me explain the speed in which he had to move to do so.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/03/
"Raikage (in Base Mode) synapsis fire as fast as a flash of light.
But once surrounded by that Raiton Chakra...... (which means he now moves even faster then "Light", and thats the speed needed to dodge it)

Sage mode Jiriya does not have that kind of speed.



-If he gets caught in Tsukuyomi, either he's dead, or Itachi's follow up attack in the real world will finish him off while Jiriya's trying to break out of Tsukuyomi (Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that seems to last for days when in fact it only lasts a few seconds. And you cant dodge this, it's instant. The best you can do is not look at Itachi, but only Gai can fight like that.

-If any part of the Totsuka Sword even just barely Grazes him, he's dead.
You cant even block this.


Jiriya's susceptible to all those attacks, even in Sage mode.
I'm not saying Jiriya cant beat Itachi or that Itachi's superior to Jiriya, that's not my point.
But Itachi can most definitely beat Jiriya, and a CASE can be made he's even better.

I disagree with you putting Madara over the 1st Hokage

It's not in order, its just tiers.

And the Fourth and the Second Hokage should be in the same category as the first Hokage

After this chapter the way Kishi showed the 4ths skills, i guess you can say that.
But the 2nd (Tobirama)............eh
I havent seen or heard anything about him that made me say "Wow, dude was a powerful bad ass".
He was just the stronget ninja in the village "At the time", so he got the title "Hokage".
Gaara's the strongest ninja in his village, but i wouldnt put him in the 2nd tier.
Not to mention Tobirama got killed by filler Ninjas offpanel, in his prime, which really isnt working for me.

"A man of unfathomable power, who saw through all my moves"

Well, you were right.
Kishi's Hyperbole BS trolled me .
He didnt even make Madara put up a decent fight.
No Sharingan/MS/or EMS use whatsover?
Didnt even land a hit?
I guess this chapter was just to hype up the 4th.


But I still stand by my comment that PRIME Madara would be too much for the 4th.
Time/Space Jutsu, Ameratasu, Susanoo, Tsukuyomi, Izangi (if needed) and whatever that final "GODLY" secret power EMS has (we know it's going to be haxx the way Kishi loves to overpower his uchihas), and his summon the Kyuubi by his side fighting? How's he going to fight the Kyuubi, he cant seal him like the 1st.
Nah

 

[kidmegaii]

True




fixed.

Plus, if you remember he told Itachi he planned to kill Madara next, so he's going to need that EMS powerup.

Just like Naurto needs to fox to take Madara out, the only reason why he needs to fox (or more chakra) against sasuke is because he feels that if they both fought at that point in time they would end up killing each other.His goal isn't to kill (unfortunately) it to bring back home (and hopefully throw his ass in jail).

I have my own theory on this.
In chapter 1, Jiriya stated to Kakashi that he had a spy within Akatsuki .
The only person who that could possibly be in my opinion is Itachi.
Remember, this is the same guy who killed his whole clan just to keep Konaha safe.
The only reason Itachi joined Akatsuki in the first place was to keep an eye on the orginization and make sure it didnt make a move on Konaha.
That's why Madara never trusted Itachi and we all know had him spy'd on.
Which was indirectly (by Pein) through Kisame.
Madara trusted Kisame to carry this out even though he kept his identity hidden from him.
"You were closest to me"
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/02/

We both the most overused arguments in this Jiraya Vs Itachi shit, "Itachi had chance to fight but ran from Jiraya"," Itachi really was a good guy and wasn't tryiing to get out of there without blowing his cover".

But mine is based on what happened in the manga, not a theory.

Itachi even told Kisame to kill Kurneai and Asuma, so they can take kakashi and find out how much he know about akaisuki.

And even Kisame was perplexed when they were running from Jiriya
Kisame's exact words "Why is a retreat necessary..........FOR YOU?

Convenient excuse to avoid suspicion from Kisame for a retreat. He had to hype up Jiriya's fighting prowess to make it seem like they had no chance.
But it's clearly hyperbole, I'll explain.

Itachi also said that both he and Kisame cannot beat Jiraiya.
Are we seriously going to sit here (Knowing how powerful Kisame and Itachi are) and discuss that Jiriya would defeat BOTH of them at the same time?
In Base Mode?

And Where's he going to get the time to gather chakra for sage mode?
Sage Mode Jiriya in no way shape or form is defeating Itachi+Kisame anyway.

Same way he did it against a more dangerous threat.

Mind you, Oro and Jiriya were both part of "The 3 Great Sennins".
Though i believe Jiriya is stronger then Oro, it's not by a WIDE margin because they had to be comparable in some way.

Itachi defeated Oro when he was only 11 years old.
So why in the world, would he think that the best he could do was force a stalemate agaisnt Jiriya?

You did the same thing, but a little different. Earlier win the Teir list you said, Madara is itachi with more charka. Because they have a relation (sharigan and Uchiha blood) you just superimposed itachi skill set on to Madara, at the same time imposing Madara power level on itachi.

Sage mode should prove that he's in a different league than Oro, despite they were on the same team for years, and grew up and trained together a very long time. You can't compare a Oro lust of everything sharingan which left him exposed, to Jiraya who by the way in that encounter was staring itachi dead in the eyes.

He only needs to hit Jiriya ONCE, not repeatedly, with any 1 of these 3 attacks.


-If Jiriya gets caught in Amertasu, he's dead.
Only 2 people have "dodged" it, Sasuke (but Itachi was never trying to hit him with it for real, because Sasuke wouldve ended up dead, and remember, Itachi was trying NOT to kill him)

Shit karin survived Amertasu, B bypassed with a replacement, stop taking Jiraya lightly.

The other is Raikage
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/463/13/
and let me explain the speed in which he had to move to do so.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/03/
"Raikage (in Base Mode) synapsis fire as fast as a flash of light.
But once surrounded by that Raiton Chakra...... (which means he now moves even faster then "Light", and thats the speed needed to dodge it)

Sage mode Jiriya does not have that kind of speed.

All Raikage did there was add move charka to increase his speed, jiraya can't use Sage charka to increase his speed?

-If he gets caught in Tsukuyomi, either he's dead, or Itachi's follow up attack in the real world will finish him off while Jiriya's trying to break out of Tsukuyomi (Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that seems to last for days when in fact it only lasts a few seconds. And you cant dodge this, it's instant. The best you can do is not look at Itachi, but only Gai can fight like that.

He can always have Ma and Pa snapped him out of the genjustu

-If any part of the Totsuka Sword even just barely Grazes him, he's dead.
You cant even block this.

Jiriya's susceptible to all those attacks, even in Sage mode.
I'm not saying Jiriya cant beat Itachi or that Itachi's superior to Jiriya, that's not my point.
But Itachi can most definitely beat Jiriya, and a CASE can be made he's even better.

And why can't itachi be susceptible to Jiraya moves, why does he have automatic immunity to all jirayas moves?

Well, you were right.
Kishi's Hyperbole BS trolled me .
He didnt even make Madara put up a decent fight.
No Sharingan/MS/or EMS use whatsover?
Didnt even land a hit?
I guess this chapter was just to hype up the 4th.

But I still stand by my comment that PRIME Madara would be too much for the 4th.
Time/Space Jutsu, Ameratasu, Susanoo, Tsukuyomi, Izangi (if needed) and whatever that final "GODLY" secret power EMS has (we know it's going to be haxx the way Kishi loves to overpower his uchihas), and his summon the Kyuubi by his side fighting? How's he going to fight the Kyuubi, he cant seal him like the 1st.
Nah

Better hope prime still has his phasing jutsu, even with 2 eyes that Hiraishin rasengan combo is pretty fucking dangerous.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

wow@The 4th. I guess i put him in the same league with Itachi then. I do not believe Itachi would lose to anyone but the sage and now the 4th. I don't believe Madara had time to use Genjutsu or anything else for that matter. How do you fight someone who can teleport anywhere?

In a blink?

 

[blaqueman]

wow@The 4th. I guess i put him in the same league with Itachi then. I do not believe Itachi would lose to anyone but the sage and now the 4th. I don't believe Madara had time to use Genjutsu or anything else for that matter. How do you fight someone who can teleport anywhere?

In a blink?

The 4th gave 'Madara' the Orchid from Killer Instinct Killer Combo yes, a 2 for 1 Special, the only thing he didn't ask was if he wanted a Large Fries and Milkshake to go with that order

 

[bkenshin]

You can tell that Kishi really likes the 4th. The way he has written him so far has been on point. Dude is calm, collected, & literally lighting fast with his execution. Made Madara look like chump change. I really hope that after his training with Killerbee, that he looks for scrolls that his mother & father may have left for him so he can go through it all & among them would be the space-time technique. I know that he has the Rikudou Sennin body, but I just want to see him smash Sasuke & perhaps Madara for ole times sake) in the face with his pops tech. That would be fun to read/see.