Minimum wage

[Drayonis]

I somewhat disagree.





^^^^^^

Drayonis, think about this.

........ also remember that it's not only 16 year old kids that need the protection of a minimum wage. Millions of poor unskilled adults do as well in order to be able to survive, pay their bills and feed their families.

Sorry, you can't pay someone $25 dollars an hour to flip burgers. Payroll is your biggest expense when running a business. When you raise the rate of pay it causes you to either let people go, cut hours dramatically and raise sales prices to compensate for the higher pay rates.

Whenever the minimum wage debate rears it's ugly head people assume that every business is a multi-billion dollar establishment like Wal-mart or Burger King. They completely ignore the small business (which is what most of American business is).

Why the fuck would you be working at minimum wage and start a family? If I as the owner have to pay for your family (that you decided to create and burden yourself with) at least let me come through and fuck your wife.

It's only fair right?

 

[Costanza]

Minimum wage is the least of our worries...

This shit should not even be on our radar at this point in time.

Says someone, I assume, not working for minimum wage or paying low wage workers.

 

[Costanza]

Peace,



As far as I know, Dray is a small business owner, not a Republican. He's thinking about it from the perspective of someone who employs low-skilled, low wage-earning people. Anyone who's either a) had people working for them who meet these criteria or b) has had to work with them, knows that a large % of them aren't great producers.

Having said that, I'm not adverse to the idea of establishing a minimum wage to prevent companies from racing to the bottom. I just think there needs to be a renewed interest in developing skills programs for kids who don't show an interest in college. If you graduate from high school with a marketable skill, min wage won't be an issue.

Basically, minimum wage is a symptom, not the problem.

Some of you clowns really don't understand capitalism. These fast food companies make BILLIONS! They want to be able to pay workers the least amount of money as possible to increase their profit. While min wage *may* hurt a few mom and pop shops, it is needed in America because of greedy bastards that run these companies.

This is very easy to lose sight of...

 

[ZuluSam]

Some of you clowns really don't understand capitalism. These fast food companies make BILLIONS! They want to be able to pay workers the least amount of money as possible to increase their profit. While min wage *may* hurt a few mom and pop shops, it is needed in America because of greedy bastards that run these companies.

The heart of American business is small businesses.

They are on every block of every city of every state in the Union.

Printers. Mechanics. Sole propietor law offices. Family Doctors.
Cleaners. Local restaurants. The list goes on and on.

Those companies will simply fire one or two workers and make the others pick up the slack.

And this helps how??

 

[Ill Paragraph]

Peace,

Basically, minimum wage is a symptom, not the problem.

EXACTLY right. Arguing over minimum wage is myopic. The larger problem - at least one of them - is that we have a permanent underclass of dark-skinned people who are perpetually relegated to low wage-paying positions.

 

[Drayonis]

N

I think dude is a republican...

.

I'm not a Republican. I'm a business owner. And I have a payroll to do every other week. AS I take breaks to type this, I'm working on payroll right now and getting ready to print checks for the people that work for me. Unless you've been where I'm at you'll never understand. When business is down your people, still need to get paid.

Most people believe the employer is made of money. And from what I've observed, believe that in many cases the "employer" is getting over on them. I had nothing but for contempt for my old boss when he was driving a mercedes and my car broke down every week and my rent was late almost every month. I worked for that guy for years, until I became a manager and eventually bought a portion of his company. He joked that I'd learn my lesson on fair pay when the shoe was on the other foot. And I did. It was easier to say, "I should get more money" when I didn't have to balance supplies, cover insurance, workers comp, State taxes and yes, payroll.

What's funny is I read threads on BGOL all the time about "starting your own business". And some of the same dudes who are in those threads asking for business advice are in this thread talking about "they should raise the minimum wage".

The heart of American business is small businesses.

They are on every block of every city of every state in the Union.

Printers. Mechanics. Sole propietor law offices. Family Doctors.
Cleaners. Local restaurants. The list goes on and on.

Those companies will simply fire one or two workers and make the others pick up the slack.

And this helps how??

^^^^^^^^^^
You get it!

Peace,
As far as I know, Dray is a small business owner, not a Republican. He's thinking about it from the perspective of someone who employs low-skilled, low wage-earning people. Anyone who's either a) had people working for them who meet these criteria or b) has had to work with them, knows that a large % of them aren't great producers.
.

Thanks for this. You've broken it down nicely. Now again I do have skilled people, I run an art based company, but I'm not paying some kid who's late and calling in every week $25 dollars an hour. I have an Asian kid right now who's fucking lazy beyond belief. He see's a hint of rain, he calls you on the phone "Do we have to come in today? I saw some drops outside"...FUCK!!! <---You really think this lazy fucker needs $25 dollars an hour? GTFO.

And where are we supposed to get this magical extra money from? It's money in and then money out. If the company isn't generating enough to cover all these people's wages some of these people will go without jobs.

 

[Ill Paragraph]

Peace Dray,

I'm not a Republican. I'm a business owner. And I have a payroll to do every other week. AS I take breaks to type this, I'm working on payroll right now and getting ready to print checks for the people that work for me. Unless you've been where I'm at you'll never understand. When business is down your people, still need to get paid.

Most people believe the employer is made of money. And from what I've observed, believe that in many cases the "employer" is getting over on them. I had nothing but for contempt for my old boss when he was driving a mercedes and my car broke down every week and my rent was late almost every month. I worked for that guy for years, until I became a manager and eventually bought a portion of his company. He joked that I'd learn my lesson on fair pay when the shoe was on the other foot. And I did. It was easier to say, "I should get more money" when I didn't have to balance supplies, cover insurance, workers comp, State taxes and yes, payroll.

What's funny is I read threads on BGOL all the time about "starting your own business". And some of the same dudes who are in those threads asking for business advice are in this thread talking about "they should raise the minimum wage".

Question for you: Do you find it difficult to hire and keep reliable workers?

 

[Drayonis]

Peace Dray,



Question for you: Do you find it difficult to hire and keep reliable workers?

Not really. It depends. High school kids are the worse. College kids are almost as bad. Adults with kids? Try not to hire them, because they always come with a list of demands - "I can only work on these days, I can't come in between this time or that time and eventually...Hey I got another job, I'm out".

It's delicate balancing act to get the right people in at the right times. You want to reward the producers and punish the slackers. And much of the work is commission based but you still have kids who waste time and play vs. actually getting work done.

The parents are EVEN the bigger problem as well. They enable and encourage the lack luster behavior of their kids. You'll be wondering where so and so is, waiting for them to come in and then check your voicemail only to find this message that you missed:
"Hey I (dad or mom) know Tommy is supposed to come in today, but I decided 3 minutes before his shift starts that I wanted him to go to a baseball game so he won't be coming in, buh-bye".....(click)....

That same parent will call you up and yell, "HEY I look at Tommy's paychecks and these NUMBERS don't look right!! Where is his money??!!!"....

^^^^^
I'm supposed to reward lazy ass Tommy and his asshole dad with higher pay?

 

[Ill Paragraph]

Peace,

Not really. It depends. High school kids are the worse. College kids are almost as bad. Adults with kids? Try not to hire them, because they always come with a list of demands - "I can only work on these days, I can't come in between this time or that time and eventually...Hey I got another job, I'm out".

It's delicate balancing act to get the right people in at the right times. You want to reward the producers and punish the slackers. And much of the work is commission based but you still have kids who waste time and play vs. actually getting work done.

The parents are EVEN the bigger problem as well. They enable and encourage the lack luster behavior of their kids. You'll be wondering where so and so is, waiting for them to come in and then check your voicemail only to find this message that you missed:
"Hey I (dad or mom) know Tommy is supposed to come in today, but I decided 3 minutes before his shift starts that I wanted him to go to a baseball game so he won't be coming in, buh-bye".....(click)....

That same parent will call you up and yell, "HEY I look at Tommy's paychecks and these NUMBERS don't look right!! Where is his money??!!!"....

^^^^^
I'm supposed to reward lazy ass Tommy and his asshole dad with higher pay?

Damn.

I figured as much. It's never as black-and-white as we try to make it. I design pay programs for my organization and approve/deny pay increase requests for a living and I find myself having to convince people ALL THE TIME that a seemingly incremental increase in pay has a tremendous impact on the bottom line. Funny thing is, I NEVER have to have these conversations with the people who work in Finance. It's always other HR folks, docs, or RNs.

At the same time, I have to bite my tongue when I see how low-performing directors and executives (some of whom don't even meet the threshold of their goals) are still rewarded with huge bonuses at the end of the year, but low-level employees are penalized. So I'm not about to sit here and pretend that greed isn't a big part of the equation as well.

People on both sides of this argument need to either inject some business acumen or compassion into their perspectives. There isn't a simple solution to this shit.

 

[Nzinga]

Sorry, you can't pay someone $25 dollars an hour to flip burgers. Payroll is your biggest expense when running a business. When you raise the rate of pay it causes you to either let people go, cut hours dramatically and raise sales prices to compensate for the higher pay rates.

Whenever the minimum wage debate rears it's ugly head people assume that every business is a multi-billion dollar establishment like Wal-mart or Burger King. They completely ignore the small business (which is what most of American business is).

Why the fuck would you be working at minimum wage and start a family? If I as the owner have to pay for your family (that you decided to create and burden yourself with) at least let me come through and fuck your wife.

It's only fair right?

Why do you expect people to work for you for sub-standard wage? You think I would not be making cars if I could have engineers to work for me for $2 an hour? If you cannot afford the labour, do the work yourself... but your interests are not more important than those of the common man.

 

[Nzinga]

bullshit. How many teenagers in America have a job a Mcdonalds or some fast food joint? Millions! Minimum wage is for unskilled workers period. Someone who is 16 doesn't need 25 dollars an hour to flip burgers and show up to work late (which they do daily).

Why should McDonalds exploit them? The reason why there is a minimum wage is because of the aversion in this country to unions. If there were unions of food industry employees, and such people, they could negotiate for a much better wage. In the absence of such protection, they would be and are exploited. The minimum wage is a small way to address that exploitation

 

[Drayonis]

Peace,



Damn.

I figured as much. It's never as black-and-white as we try to make it. I design pay programs for my organization and approve/deny pay increase requests for a living and I find myself having to convince people ALL THE TIME that a seemingly incremental increase in pay has a tremendous impact on the bottom line. Funny thing is, I NEVER have to have these conversations with the people who work in Finance. It's always other HR folks, docs, or RNs.

At the same time, I have to bite my tongue when I see how low-performing directors and executives (some of whom don't even meet the threshold of their goals) are still rewarded with huge bonuses at the end of the year, but low-level employees are penalized. So I'm not about to sit here and pretend that greed isn't a big part of the equation as well.

People on both sides of this argument need to either inject some business acumen or compassion into their perspectives. There isn't a simple solution to this shit.

Exactly. People are concerned about the amount because they aren't taking on the burden of running the company. Financing the company and paying for every damn thing involved. People are stingy as hell with their check books but expect the employer to pay for every damn thing imaginable.

I watched a white woman complaining about Wal-mart wages (fat white chick/mixed kids no father in sight) saying, "They need to pay us more, How can I support my family on these wages".....The better question was, "BITCH why did you have a family in the first place knowing you were already working on those wages?" <-----Nope it's the employers fault 100% right?

The employer forced her in that job by gun-point and then forced to repeatedly have children over and over again (without a husband). He also forced her to not educate herself or get a skill/trade and NOW, it's up to the employer to pay for and her whole family. She has no responsibility it's all the nasty 'ole mean bossman's fault.

 

[Drayonis]

Why should McDonalds exploit them? The reason why there is a minimum wage is because of the aversion in this country to unions. If there were unions of food industry employees, and such people, they could negotiate for a much better wage. In the absence of such protection, they would be and are exploited. The minimum wage is a small way to address that exploitation

How is Mcdonalds exploiting them, when they applied for the job? Is anyone forcing them to work there? There are alternatives to jobs like that. An unskilled healthy man can go work construction as a helper and make 3 times the amount that Mcdonalds makes. And I can tell Nzinga you are an employee and not an employer.

 

[Drayonis]

Why do you expect people to work for you for sub-standard wage? You think I would not be making cars if I could have engineers to work for me for $2 an hour? If you cannot afford the labour, do the work yourself... but your interests are not more important than those of the common man.

I'm not understanding most of whatever it is you were trying to say here. Could you rephrase this a bit Nzinga...

 

[Nzinga]

How is Mcdonalds exploiting them, when they applied for the job? Is anyone forcing them to work there? There are alternatives to jobs like that. An unskilled healthy man can go work construction as a helper and make 3 times the amount that Mcdonalds makes. And I can tell Nzinga you are an employee and not an employer.

McDonalds is exploiting them because they do not have, as individuals, the power to negotiate against a corporation. They apply to join a class of the the work force that is without leverage, and that is why they must unionise. Unions in the world fought against such wanton capitalism in the 19th century that compelled workers to work in slave like conditions.

 

[Nzinga]

I'm not understanding most of whatever it is you were trying to say here. Could you rephrase this a bit Nzinga...

I apologise for making it personal. What I am saying is that there must be minimum standards for labour compensation. Those who cannot meet them should stay out of the business of hiring labourers.

 

[ZuluSam]

McDonalds is exploiting them because they do not have, as individuals, the power to negotiate against a corporation. They apply to join a class of the the work force that is without leverage, and that is why they must unionise. Unions in the world fought against such wanton capitalism in the 19th century that compelled workers to work in slave like conditions.

I apologise for making it personal. What I am saying is that there must be minimum standards for labour compensation. Those who cannot meet them should stay out of the business of hiring labourers.

Is this a joke? Although there was a time when unions served a valid purpose, they ended up demanding more than the companies could or were willing to bare. So those companies did just what you suggested...they got out of business of hiring laborers...IN THE UNITED STATES and took those jobs offshore.

The result is the devastation one sees on formerly highly industrialized cities like Detroit. Now there are no jobs at all...and this helped who??

 

[ZuluSam]

An interesting read on subject, regardless of where you stand is "Atlas Shrugged".

And if you haven't read the book, please don't comment based on what you have "heard"...

 

[Drayonis]

McDonalds is exploiting them because they do not have, as individuals, the power to negotiate against a corporation.

They can "negotiate" by not working there right? Answer me on that one.

 

[Non-StopJFK2TAB]

I love hearing owners complain about their bottom line as if they cant raise their prices. The only thing that happens is their profit margin decrfeases which is a necessary sacrifice .

 

[Autobot8655]

Is this a joke? Although there was a time when unions served a valid purpose, they ended up demanding more than the companies could or were willing to bare. So those companies did just what you suggested...they got out of business of hiring laborers...IN THE UNITED STATES and took those jobs offshore.

The result is the devastation one sees on formerly highly industrialized cities like Detroit. Now there are no jobs at all...and this helped who??

so....

you really think that union benefits caused the rust belt deindustrialization.

 

[ZuluSam]

I love hearing owners complain about their bottom line as if they cant raise their prices. The only thing that happens is their profit margin decrfeases which is a necessary sacrifice .

And if prices rise, then that just negates the raise in minimum wage because those minimum wage earners have to exist with the higher prices too, right?

 

[ZuluSam]

so....

you really think that union benefits caused the rust belt deindustrialization.

Enlighten us.

 

[Drayonis]

All the proponents for raising minimum wage answer this for me:

You have 3 people. You pay each of them $100 dollars.

3x100=$300

You're company takes in $600 dollars sales. $100 dollars goes towards supplies/insurance/rent etc.

($600-$100=$500) then ($500-$300=$200)

You get paid $200 dollars (after all you have to get paid and you do extra work to keep things going).

The government says hey, you need to pay each person $200 dollars. No matter what.

You're company still takes in $600 dollars every week. You now owe $600 dollars to the employees.

$600-$600 = $0

Insurance/rent/supplies are still due, you owe $100 dollars.....you fire one person and now make the other two do double the work. You take a pay cut down to $100 dollars.

You catch a few bad weeks and you take in less than $600 dollars for the week.

Business is closed.

*It's not always about greed and the bottom line and evil corporations sometimes it's just trying to keep your business afloat. You can't as black people say "we need to start our own business's and then fundamentally don't understand what's involved in running a business".

 

[Drayonis]

I love hearing owners complain about their bottom line as if they cant raise their prices. The only thing that happens is their profit margin decrfeases which is a necessary sacrifice .

Go back to business school.

And if prices rise, then that just negates the raise in minimum wage because those minimum wage earners have to exist with the higher prices too, right?

checkmate.

 

[Non-StopJFK2TAB]

And if prices rise, then that just negates the raise in minimum wage because those minimum wage earners have to exist with the higher prices too, right?

Prices rise for many reasons none t matters. All that matters is citizens have enoughto purchase enough of the bare necessities.

 

[Non-StopJFK2TAB]

And if prices rise, then that just negates the raise in minimum wage because those minimum wage earners have to exist with the higher prices too, right?

The government dictates what it can cost of employers not the cost of resources. If a business cannot afford an employee they have the option not to hire them

 

[tampabay904]

Like it or not min. wage prevents American companies from opening slave labor/sweat shops on US soil.

cosign

 

[Ninja05]

I'll admit that I am a novice to some of this discussion - however before hitting law school I lost my fellowship and with no unemployment I was working minimum wage warehouse jobs on the line. One - not everyone working minimum wage jobs (especially in these times) are high school kids, drug addicts, cons, or single mothers with three kids. Sometimes its people who are working hard and trying to get by legally.

Second, I'm sorry but small businesses are not the backbone of America. They might be the one's that are most affected by policies, but they only get trotted out during tax and minimum wages debates. For real, these are really pushed by and for big business who are really not affected by small changes in the minimum wage laws other than a small cut in their profis.

We always talk about the market dictating the cost of milk and a raise in wages will cause milk to sky rocket. It doesn't matter. You think Nike passed on the cost of savings for their slave wages to the consumer? What they are getting 10 cents an hour? Them jordans are still $150 playa. First, American companies - notorious for raping consumers and workers (hence unions - regardless of their corruption) will not want to lose any type of profits by lowering prices accordingly to a minimum wage repeal. We keep talking in theories and what should happen, but human greed always prevails. The market will not prevail because American consumers have no real power. We can never wait out a necessary product like milk until a price shift (and there is always collusion which overrides fairness).

So what we would have is $2 an hour workers - with prices still staying the same (with a few Kroger specials) and American companies and investors/stockholders will make a killing. More money will need to be spent for government subsidies on affordable housing and welfare. Basically the gap between the haves and the have nots would reach mid-evil times. Basically get ready to learn how to boil potatoes, cause prices will stay the same.

There will always be a reason to keep products the same price or cause them to rise. Point in case - gas is $3 in the winter. About to be four by the summer. You think this ish is tied to demand? You think if they lowered the wages of gas workers it will cause gas rates to lower? No, like damn near everything it is tied to speculation and greed. China raised demand just a little and folks are going crazy. Remember when gas reached stupid levels a few years ago? What was the reason? Did they really ever go down? Why did gas in GA go from $0.87 in 2001 to everybody fighting at Costco for $2.87?

I respect small business owners but don't get it twisted. There has to be a minimum wage to sustain a functioning belief in a fair and just capitalistic society. Without this - the perception will be gone. Just my opinion

 

[Drayonis]

Prices rise for many reasons none t matters. All that matters is citizens have enoughto purchase enough of the bare necessities.

You seem to just be rambling. Please back out of the conversation. You don't have anything to offer.

 

[Non-StopJFK2TAB]

You seem to just be rambling. Please back out of the conversation. You don't have anything to offer.

You have the option not to hire employees, but doing hard work costs you too much. Its a trade off, create a product hats yield an econmic profit of close shop.

 

[Drayonis]

You have the option not to hire employees, but doing hard work costs you too much. Its a trade off, create a product hats yield an econmic profit of close shop.

Been in business going on 17 years. You obviously don't know shit about running a business and are 100% incapable of running one.

I'm sure if you tried to open a business you'd pay all of your workers $3,000 dollars per hour while only taking in $100 dollars a week. I hope that works out for you though.

*I need to stop arguing with you, based on the way you're writing you're obviously either drunk or high.

Peace.

 

[Non-StopJFK2TAB]

*I need to stop engagin with you too. Your ideals have been compromised and I refuse to debate with someone who is willing to lie to make himself better off*

Been in business going on 17 years. You obviously don't know shit about running a business and are 100% incapable of running one.

I'm sure if you tried to open a business you'd pay all of your workers $3,000 dollars per hour while only taking in $100 dollars a week. I hope that works out for you though.

*I need to stop arguing with you, based on the way you're writing you're obviously either drunk or high.

Peace.

 

[Rembrandt]

the problem is that the large businesses are going to rape the lower class. Point blank until there are seperate rules for the large corporations and smaller independent businesses in regards to pay and benefits there will always be this fight.

 

[Rembrandt]

I'll admit that I am a novice to some of this discussion - however before hitting law school I lost my fellowship and with no unemployment I was working minimum wage warehouse jobs on the line. One - not everyone working minimum wage jobs (especially in these times) are high school kids, drug addicts, cons, or single mothers with three kids. Sometimes its people who are working hard and trying to get by legally.

Second, I'm sorry but small businesses are not the backbone of America. They might be the one's that are most affected by policies, but they only get trotted out during tax and minimum wages debates. For real, these are really pushed by and for big business who are really not affected by small changes in the minimum wage laws other than a small cut in their profis.

We always talk about the market dictating the cost of milk and a raise in wages will cause milk to sky rocket. It doesn't matter. You think Nike passed on the cost of savings for their slave wages to the consumer? What they are getting 10 cents an hour? Them jordans are still $150 playa. First, American companies - notorious for raping consumers and workers (hence unions - regardless of their corruption) will not want to lose any type of profits by lowering prices accordingly to a minimum wage repeal. We keep talking in theories and what should happen, but human greed always prevails. The market will not prevail because American consumers have no real power. We can never wait out a necessary product like milk until a price shift (and there is always collusion which overrides fairness).

So what we would have is $2 an hour workers - with prices still staying the same (with a few Kroger specials) and American companies and investors/stockholders will make a killing. More money will need to be spent for government subsidies on affordable housing and welfare. Basically the gap between the haves and the have nots would reach mid-evil times. Basically get ready to learn how to boil potatoes, cause prices will stay the same.

There will always be a reason to keep products the same price or cause them to rise. Point in case - gas is $3 in the winter. About to be four by the summer. You think this ish is tied to demand? You think if they lowered the wages of gas workers it will cause gas rates to lower? No, like damn near everything it is tied to speculation and greed. China raised demand just a little and folks are going crazy. Remember when gas reached stupid levels a few years ago? What was the reason? Did they really ever go down? Why did gas in GA go from $0.87 in 2001 to everybody fighting at Costco for $2.87?

I respect small business owners but don't get it twisted. There has to be a minimum wage to sustain a functioning belief in a fair and just capitalistic society. Without this - the perception will be gone. Just my opinion

This just supports what I just typed. They don't care about small business until its time to talk policy then they use them to get ways to benefit the huge corporations and their sucking up profit to raise share prices.