Michael Moore - Capitalism Is Evil?

[Cruise]

Trade is based on trust but is trade whats needed its more about empowerment, so trust would be taken out of the equasion thru contracts and different agreements.

If the goal is empowerment it opens more doors, gives people more options. One scenario could be trade based on production. There could also be investments, sales and purchases under a corporate system, as long as there is strict accountability.

Trust and reputation are key. People have faith in the dollar. The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States.

People must believe in this. That is why I think the Church won't work. I believe they will see it as a threat to their authority and power. The last thing you need is for them to start railing against you from the pulpit and informing on you to the government, before you get started.

I sincerely believe if someone were to make this happen, you would see drastic improvements in every aspect of life in the community (from child to adult to retiree).

Contracts and legal agreements means courts and attorneys. Unless your system had its own arbitration, or conflict resolution system, you would have to go to white courts. That would not be good to air out trade activity in their court system. There should be implicit trust among the founders of this system, for it to work.

The Black Church might be the only organization that survived against capitalism. It outlived socialism, communism and imperalism. We've seen govts crumble but the Black Church is still standing, it amazing when you think about it. Preachers & Reverends aren't necessary but the principles and values of the Black church would be worth emulating along with the way a small group like a congregation can have so much power and influence in a given commuinty.

The main point was to get some ideas and opinions flowing. Get some feedback started and see how many differents ideas are out there about leveling the field.

There is certainly a way to do this. I just think creating an alternative trade system has to be clear on the weaknesses of the white system.

The white system uses banks, stock markets, paper currency, insurance, pensions, debt, and massive government waste to work.

A better way shouldn't be that difficult to create.

 

[nittie]

Originally Posted by Cruise

Trust and reputation are key. People have faith in the dollar. The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States.

People must believe in this. That is why I think the Church won't work. I believe they will see it as a threat to their authority and power. The last thing you need is for them to start railing against you from the pulpit and informing on you to the government, before you get started.

I sincerely believe if someone were to make this happen, you would see drastic improvements in every aspect of life in the community (from child to adult to retiree).

Contracts and legal agreements means courts and attorneys. Unless your system had its own arbitration, or conflict resolution system, you would have to go to white courts. That would not be good to air out trade activity in their court system. There should be implicit trust among the founders of this system, for it to work.

If something like this started online yes trust who be important. Trust imo has no place in business but I'm open to different opinions. If competing with the dollar is the goal it seems doing the opposite of what made it popular would be the smart thing to do. That means a currency that doesn't fluctuate, thats stable and dependable. So the objective wouldn't be trust among partners but trust in a currency back by law since there wouldn't be gold or silver to back it.


The Church is just an example of how a few people can affect change. It doesn't mean affiliating with the Church. Too many church and ministers have been boughtout anyway. The old Church, based on universal values and principals is another story. It withstood slavery, Jim Crow, capitalism and everything else. It lasted because of values so building on principal is the main thing. Capitalism isn't much different from religion they both make promises they can't keep, they both are ideals, emotional escapes, although the dollar can be use for material things and thats why it lasted for as long as it has.


We have proven that when the debate is about ideas the game changes. The system loses some of its power. So this debate should be split between issues and alternatives. Reality and Idealism. People can find a way out of this grip business has on us.

 

[Cruise]

If something like this started online yes trust who be important. Trust imo has no place in business but I'm open to different opinions. If competing with the dollar is the goal it seems doing the opposite of what made it popular would be the smart thing to do. That means a currency that doesn't fluctuate, thats stable and dependable. So the objective wouldn't be trust among partners but trust in a currency back by law since there wouldn't be gold or silver to back it.

I believe trust in people is the bedrock of business. Sometimes, business is done on a handshake, a nod, a wink, or a smile. Sometimes, it isn't good to have everything written down for fear of theft, fraud, or competition.

If Bill Gates or Warren Buffett say they are going to do something, it isn't crazy to think their word is better than an iron-clad contract from some shifty character.

It is the trust the other party will respect the trade. It is trust in people's self-interest. It is trust in reputation.

When we buy our food, go to the doctor, pay our bills, or cash our check, we are putting our trust in all sorts of people and businesses for which we really have no control.

The key is to get participants in your system to trust it more than the dollar system (at least for some transactions).

The banks discovered in the 19th century that people don't really care about gold and silver, so why use it?

As long as they can get their bread, fuel, clothes, and a few luxuries, people will call anything money (paper, plastic, check, token, etc.).

So, if the new system supplies a few of these things, people will want to use it. As long as they get something they want, the average joe doesn't care. He'll use piles of manure if it gets him that new car or big TV.

The Church is just an example of how a few people can affect change. It doesn't mean affiliating with the Church. Too many church and ministers have been boughtout anyway. The old Church, based on universal values and principals is another story. It withstood slavery, Jim Crow, capitalism and everything else. It lasted because of values so building on principal is the main thing. Capitalism isn't much different from religion they both make promises they can't keep, they both are ideals, emotional escapes, although the dollar can be use for material things and thats why it lasted for as long as it has.


We have proven that when the debate is about ideas the game changes. The system loses some of its power. So this debate should be split between issues and alternatives. Reality and Idealism. People can find a way out of this grip business has on us.

 

[Lamarr]

However, Ron Paul repeatedly writes about Austrian Economics.

Their belief is that central banking is a failure and the best way for banking to work is with free banking. This differs from the free banking period that existed in the United States in the 19th century, which simply meant state governments were free to authorize as many banks as they wanted WITHOUT federal government interference.

Personally, I think all banks are hell on mankind.

Banking should be viewed as any other service-oriented business. Let them be judged on performance and the people will decide if its a safe investment. Banks do have a place in society but not to the degree we see now! You, damn near, have to have a bank acct to participate in life, & intruding more & more, daily. All these cats callin for reform and tranparency really need to open their eyes to this 21st century system.

 

[Cruise]

Banking should be viewed as any other service-oriented business. Let them be judged on performance and the people will decide if its a safe investment. Banks do have a place in society but not to the degree we see now! You, damn near, have to have a bank acct to participate in life, & intruding more & more, daily. All these cats callin for reform and tranparency really need to open their eyes to this 21st century system.

I'll agree except I think banks are a drag on society.

My problem with banks is they are not natural in trade or commerce. Banks lend other people's money for interest. This means the banks have control, not the people who make the money available. This is unnatural for commerce.

Banks ONLY EXIST because of government protection (through laws and courts). They thrive with little competition and under cartel-like conditions. Banks drive centralization, globalization, colonization, exploitation, and war.

Food, clothing, shelter, transportation, health care, education, manufacturing, can exist without government protection, but not banks.

There are a lot of alternatives to banks for trade, but banks know how to pay off and finance the government to stay in business.

If banks lacked government protection, they wouldn't be called banks as we know them. They would be a different kind of commerical institution.

Think about every banking advancement in history. There is always government involvement.

 

[oolong tea]

I just came back from seeing the documentary. I didn't learn anything that I didn't already know from television. I think it's time Moore went ahead and making films over written dissent books like John Perkins. That needs to become a documentary. A real eye opener.

 

[Lamarr]

I just came back from seeing the documentary. I didn't learn anything that I didn't already know from television. I think it's time Moore went ahead and making films over written dissent books like John Perkins. That needs to become a documentary. A real eye opener.

M Moore believes in Capitalism, thats why he made the film. Other than that, Would you recommend?

John Perkins from "Confessions.........Economic Hitman"? Yeah, I'd pay to see that, and I hate spendin $$$ ! But we know Hollywood aint touchin anything like that, not if they need future funding of projects.

 

[nittie]

Three More Banks Fail Bringing Year’s Total To 98By editor|Oct 3, 2009, 2:51 AM|Author's Website

Regulators closed banks in Michigan, Colorado and Minnesota on Friday, pushing U.S. bank failures to 98 this year amid continuing fallout from the worst economic contraction in more than 70 years. Assets of nearly $634 million and deposits of nearly $586 million from the three banks were turned over to new lenders at a total cost of $293.3 million to the FDIC’s Deposit Insurance Fund [DIF], according to agency statements

Banks are dying out the lending system is on its last leg. Now is the time to come up with alternatives to lending, buying and selling. When someone finds a way to do it they will be the next power brokers, king makers, billionaires. I think the brain power to do it is out there, on the net, just gotta organize it without interference from the govt, business and haters.

 

[nittie]

The single-mindedness theory (SMT) studies the effects of social groups' preferences on the political equilibria and affirms that those groups which are more able to focus on the minimum number of issues gain a greater political power which enables them to eventually get what they require.

This ain't rocket science [and rocket science ain't all it appears to be], just a matter of opinion, exercising free will. Focus on a objective and see what happens. These groups are single minded, focused, organized, they use scientific thinking to do what they do. No one has a monopoly on thinking.

 

[oolong tea]

M Moore believes in Capitalism, thats why he made the film. Other than that, Would you recommend?

John Perkins from "Confessions.........Economic Hitman"? Yeah, I'd pay to see that, and I hate spendin $$$ ! But we know Hollywood aint touchin anything like that, not if they need future funding of projects.

I'd recommend it as a DVD but I'm reaching. This sounds foolish but it wasn't interesting. The movie should be retitled. Moore should consider hiring writers, directors, somebody to make the movie cohesive. If anything, the movie could be studied to figure out to produce your own straight to DVD flick. I mean, his style of documentaries meant them informative and somewhat entertaining; I usually learn something new. Knowing Congressmen and Judges are bought and sold is nothing new. Seeing how capitalism interferes with other nation's business would have been worth it. I think Chris Rock will have a "theatreworthy" flick coming your way.

 

[SPECTRE1]

Capitalism does a poor job of allocating wealth based on what I have seen. With futher automation and consolidation of our means of production, jobs will be a poor basis to allocate wealth to people. Economies can become too efficient at producing goods with minimium labor inputs.

If you develop a cure for AIDS or develop a method to fight cancer, than you deserve to be billionaire, however, this type of exceptionalism is not the case for most of the billionaires/millionaires in the world. Especially, CEO taking advantage of absentee, poorly empowered owners/shareholders with their pay. The mega wealthy can be grouped into two categories, exploited labor or owns a monopolistic business that exploits consumers.

Eventually, the government will need to permanently redistribute wealth to fix the lack of employment opportunities.

 

[slowrush]

If capitalism is os evil, then I guess MM will not mind if I just download this movie off the net. That way, I will not be giving he money to the Motion Picture Industry, whose tactics are probably just as cut throat as any on wall street. Think of all the actors who have gotten screwed over by fine lines in contracts taht have cheated them out of royalties. Same goes for the music industry (i.e. TLC from days gone by).

MM is just hiting at low hanging fruit. He will not bring up the hypocracy in his own industry because if he did he would never be able to get financing for a movie again.

 

[oolong tea]

Capitalism does a poor job of allocating wealth based on what I have seen. With futher automation and consolidation of our means of production, jobs will be a poor basis to allocate wealth to people. Economies can become too efficient at producing goods with minimium labor inputs.

If you develop a cure for AIDS or develop a method to fight cancer, than you deserve to be billionaire, however, this type of exceptionalism is not the case for most of the billionaires/millionaires in the world. Especially, CEO taking advantage of absentee, poorly empowered owners/shareholders with their pay.

Eventually, the government will need to permanently redistribute wealth to fix the lack of employment opportunities.

Capitalism works but it's being perverted to its limitless, heartless potential. For instance, taking from your example, you can still be a multimillionaire with the THREAT to cure cancer or AIDS if you have the antidote; just allow yourself to be bought out by the pharmaceutical companies. What's being encouraged now is a war among the have-nots. I don't write the haves because they will be vacating America with their wealth. Trust, they need not be present in the country to run it. Now, it's an experiment. How low can the industries push you before you either realize the truth or reach your breaking point.

 

[Lamarr]

Banks are dying out the lending system is on its last leg. Now is the time to come up with alternatives to lending, buying and selling. When someone finds a way to do it they will be the next power brokers, king makers, billionaires. I think the brain power to do it is out there, on the net, just gotta organize it without interference from the govt, business and haters.

Banks aren't dying out, they are just consolidating. The "superbanks" are buying up other smaller banks and / or waiting for smaller banks to fail so they can buy the assets of value for pennies on the dollar. That's what TARP was all about. Our tax dollars were given to the banks so they can buy up "the world and its resources" and the people are stuck with the bill. Nittie, I don't care how much people want to blame capitalism for our situation, That action, as well as others we've seen in the past 30 yrs, is not capitalistic, its borderline theft!

 

[Cruise]

Banks aren't dying out, they are just consolidating. The "superbanks" are buying up other smaller banks and / or waiting for smaller banks to fail so they can buy the assets of value for pennies on the dollar. That's what TARP was all about. Our tax dollars were given to the banks so they can buy up "the world" and the people are stuck with the bill. Nittie, I don't care how much people want to blame capitalism for our situation, That action, as well as others we've seen in the past 30 yrs, is not capitalistic, its borderline theft!

I think he's right, the banks are dying.

They are consolidating because they are losing power and are cannibalizing each other to stay alive and hold on to what power they can.

If you look at the history of banks for the past few hundred years, you'll see there is a pattern of bank birth, rise, dominance, decline, and collapse.

This is definitely past the period of bank dominance. I believe this is a period of bank decline with eventual collapse looming.

Get ready!

 

[Lamarr]

I think he's right, the banks are dying.

They are consolidating because they are losing power and are cannibalizing each other to stay alive and hold on to what power they can.

If you look at the history of banks for the past few hundred years, you'll see there is a pattern of bank birth, rise, dominance, decline, and collapse.

This is definitely past the period of bank dominance. I believe this is a period of bank decline with eventual collapse looming.

Get ready!

when you put it like that, I agree I guess I can't say they are dying until we have an informed public! The grid these people have laid out is so scandalous. They have divided humans based on everything from race to gender to religion. I know whats comin but no one is truly prepared for what we may see but it may present a great oppurtunity.

Whats the saying? Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts, absolutely! I believe it

 

[thoughtone]

when you put it like that, I agree I guess I can't say they are dying until we have an informed public! The grid these people have laid out is so scandalous. They have divided humans based on everything from race to gender to religion. I know whats comin but no one is truly prepared for what we may see but it may present a great oppurtunity.

Whats the saying? Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts, absolutely! I believe it

That’s capitalism!!!! Lamarr, you can’t be that naive. That’s intrinsically what it’s all about. Segmenting markets to sell you shit, whether you need it to survive or not. The Top forty selling record charts versus Urban Contemporary charts. Black women buying Asian hair extensions to look European. Importing slaves and encouraging foreign workers to do labor at the lowest cost possible. Econ 101? Western capitalism is a recent concept in the human experience. Where it is sustainable in the long haul is something that we are witnessing at the moment.

Whats the saying? Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts, absolutely! I believe it

So what is the regulating force to this phenomenon?

 

[Lamarr]

That’s capitalism!!!! Lamarr, you can’t be that naive. That’s intrinsically what it’s all about. Segmenting markets to sell you shit, whether you need it to survive or not. The Top forty selling record charts versus Urban Contemporary charts. Black women buying Asian hair extensions to look European. Importing slaves and encouraging foreign workers to do labor at the lowest cost possible. Econ 101? Western capitalism is a recent concept in the human experience. Where it is sustainable in the long haul is something that we are witnessing at the moment.

So to impose democracy in foreign lands, control the resources of those lands is labeled Capitalism?
So takin money from taxpayers and givin it to Banks is labeled Capitalism?
So the gubmint negotiating trade agreements with nations in poverty is labeled Capitalism?

Call it what you want but it aint Capitalism, it's borderline theft, corruption & deceit! But yet we sit back and wonder why people in foreign lands want to do us harm.

Lastly, we are fighting never-ending Wars, bailing out crooked-azz bankers, and gubmint got us into 11 Trill worth of debt and you want to blame Capitalism? YOU, can't be that naive!

So what is the regulating force to this phenomenon?[/QUOTE]

When power corrupts absolutely, there is no regulating force!
"It's hard to enforce fraud laws when the government participates in fraud" - Ron Paul

 

[Acur]

I watched the movie this past weekend at a small artsy theater. The show was packed it was a great movie.

 

[thoughtone]

So to impose democracy in foreign lands, control the resources of those lands is labeled Capitalism?
So takin money from taxpayers and givin it to Banks is labeled Capitalism?
So the gubmint negotiating trade agreements with nations in poverty is labeled Capitalism?

Call it what you want but it aint Capitalism, it's borderline theft, corruption & deceit! But yet we sit back and wonder why people in foreign lands want to do us harm.

Lastly, we are fighting never-ending Wars, bailing out crooked-azz bankers, and gubmint got us into 11 Trill worth of debt and you want to blame Capitalism? YOU, can't be that naive!

So what is the regulating force to this phenomenon?

When power corrupts absolutely, there is no regulating force!
"It's hard to enforce fraud laws when the government participates in fraud" - Ron Paul[/QUOTE]

Lastly, we are fighting never-ending Wars, bailing out crooked-azz bankers, and gubmint got us into 11 Trill worth of debt and you want to blame Capitalism? YOU, can't be that naive!

What was the African slave trade about, capitalism! What is the international dope trade about, capitalism! What is the current housing crisis about, capitalism? Making money, making money, making money! Whether you want to label it bad capitalism or good capitalism, it is all about capitalism. Making money sans regulations, that is the purist definition of capitalism. Yes, unchecked power will corrupt. Take the money out of the election process and the corporations will not have the deck stacked in their favor and this issue will be lessened.

 

[Lamarr]

Take the money out of the election process and the corporations will not have the deck stacked in their favor and this issue will be lessened.

Somewhere in that statement you have admitted my whole point. If not for govt intervention, a lot of this fraudulent behavior may not have occured, right?

There's no such thing as bad capitalism, call it what it is: FRAUD, THEFT, CORRUPTION come to mind and should be prosecuted

 

[thoughtone]

Somewhere in that statement you have admitted my whole point. If not for govt intervention, a lot of this fraudulent behavior may not have occured, right?

There's no such thing as bad capitalism, call it what it is: FRAUD, THEFT, CORRUPTION come to mind and should be prosecuted

On the contrary, with out government regulation corporation’s main goal of profit would supersede all other goals and anything and everything else would be secondary to achieve this goal. Remember the Great depression or did you study that and do you not consider that capitalism?

So the African slave and dope trade is not bad? Skipped over that one huh.

 

[Lamarr]

So the African slave and dope trade is not bad? Skipped over that one huh.

na Thought, that is the highest crime and should be prosecuted. Drug trade as well. But I'll take it one step further: I have no doubt that the financiers of the slave & dope ventures had their seeds planted by respective govts.

Thats why I posted that MLK quote. We must demand our govts. have moral standing before implementing laws. Lately, every piece of legislation being passed or proposed has centered around giving banks more control over our lives. I believe there is a role for govt but it is to protect the rights of its citizens, thats what liberty is all about.

“Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.” - MLK

 

[michigantoga]

This Shit here the Truth!

 

[nittie]

Banks aren't dying out, they are just consolidating. The "superbanks" are buying up other smaller banks and / or waiting for smaller banks to fail so they can buy the assets of value for pennies on the dollar. That's what TARP was all about. Our tax dollars were given to the banks so they can buy up "the world and its resources" and the people are stuck with the bill. Nittie, I don't care how much people want to blame capitalism for our situation, That action, as well as others we've seen in the past 30 yrs, is not capitalistic, its borderline theft!

Capitalism as praticed in the U.S. is theft, not boderline theft, but theft. How did the people with money get it? Stealing from indians, blacks, poor whites and anyone else they could steal from. The prototype for a CEO is Al Capone, Tony Soprano, a hoodlum. Would you buy a used car from Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, I don't think so.

The system is also 200yrs old, it's being outpaced by the rest of the world. It didn't adapt fast enough and now it on the brink of extinction. It's not all the govts fault. The govt was designed to protect the interest of rich white men and it did until demographics overtook it.

No longer can the sytem exploit the poor and minorities like the banks tried to do with home loans. The credit card companies can't get away with it much longer either. Thats the coming crisis no one talks about. The system would work if we realized we're in this together. One side can't feed on the other without severe consequences. But the consumer has to take some of the blame we got lazy, divided, and in a dog eat dog system like ours thats fatal.

 

[jerrynuevo]

I can't wait to see it............

 

[Lamarr]

Thought, I just "thought" of something that should bring some clarity to the situation. Check it out, your statement:

What is the current housing crisis about, capitalism? Making money, making money, making money! Whether you want to label it bad capitalism or good capitalism, it is all about capitalism.

what blows a hole through your whole argument is the fact that the free market had determined that most of these banks that acted irresponsibly during the housing collapse, and should have gone out of business. The free market told us that. However, Dubya & his faithful sidekick, Senator Obama, intervened in the market activity and bailed out the same greedy-azz institutions, with the same greedy-azz motives, you despise! Deal with the truth bruh!

I know some of y'all hate all that free market talk but the market was telling us these institutions shouldn't be in business. The free market would've had they azz in the unemployment line, assets liquidated! Once again, we need to allow companies that make irresponsible decisions to FAIL. Thats how Capitalism works

 

[oolong tea]

Thought, I just "thought" of something that should bring some clarity to the situation. Check it out, your statement:



what blows a hole through your whole argument is the fact that the free market had determined that most of these banks that acted irresponsibly during the housing collapse, and should have gone out of business. The free market told us that. However, Dubya & his faithful sidekick, Senator Obama, intervened in the market activity and bailed out the same greedy-azz institutions, with the same greedy-azz motives, you despise! Deal with the truth bruh!

I know some of y'all hate all that free market talk but the market was telling us these institutions shouldn't be in business. The free market would've had they azz in the unemployment line, assets liquidated! Once again, we need to allow companies that make irresponsible decisions to FAIL. Thats how Capitalism works

Nearly done reading this big ole intro to business textbook dated pre 9/11. Interesting read. It was discussing in abstract what caused the Asian Financial Crisis of 1997. Seems like the real estate was as well intentioned as the falling of the twin Towers. Remember folks, if this America starts an internal civil war, the rich have no reason to hang around.

 

[thoughtone]

na Thought, that is the highest crime and should be prosecuted. Drug trade as well. But I'll take it one step further: I have no doubt that the financiers of the slave & dope ventures had their seeds planted by respective govts.

Thats why I posted that MLK quote. We must demand our govts. have moral standing before implementing laws. Lately, every piece of legislation being passed or proposed has centered around giving banks more control over our lives. I believe there is a role for govt but it is to protect the rights of its citizens, thats what liberty is all about.

“Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.” - MLK

na Thought, that is the highest crime and should be prosecuted. Drug trade as well.

Thats why I posted that MLK quote. We must demand our govts. have moral standing before implementing laws.

You keep moving the bar of the argument or you don’t understand what "Free Market" is. "Free Markets" are amoral. They only thing they abide by is the market. Whether a profit can be made from a sale or not. Your view is of limited "Free Markets." I have heard some say that any limitation on the markets is not free. Talk show host Neal Boortz said that consumer protection laws are socialist (their goes that word again). He said on his radio show "Let the buyer beware," (Caveat emptor). As you have stated, in Nazi Germany many laws they had would be considered illegal in most civilized nations. Fifty years ago, business owners could discriminate against costumers based on race, sex, etc. Conservative talk show host, Michael Medved thinks that laws against a business owner discriminating who they can patronize is infringing on the business owners rights. And he is a Jew! Many people think that recreational drugs should be made legal. Let the free market determined it. They are legal in the Netherlands. So without the government to limit the amoral, bottom line based markets, economic Darwinism would take over. Maybe you agree with this.

 

[QueEx]

Whether or not I agree with you, you're honing the issue.

I anxiously await the response.


QueEx

 

[VegasGuy]

If Michael Moore is referring to the Love of Money being evil, then he is 100 percent correct.

-VG

 

[Lamarr]

You keep moving the bar of the argument or you don’t understand what "Free Market" is. "Free Markets" are amoral. They only thing they abide by is the market. Whether a profit can be made from a sale or not. Your view is of limited "Free Markets." I have heard some say that any limitation on the markets is not free.

The "free market" is indifferent to morality, however, the motives of individuals (the govt) who interpret / make laws should be held to scrutiny. The free market is the "invisble hand" determines the winners & losers in the marketplace. The true debate is what the govts. role in the market should be. And what I'm pointing out, and to some degree, what you are pointing out is that special interests are controlling Washington, therefore distorting the markets in exchange for favors, for lack of a better term. Is that fair enough?

The hypocrisy in your argument lies in the fact that while you despise the evil, greedy corporations, the "free market" was telling us these institutions were insolvent / bankrupt. Actions taken by the govt. enabled these same institutions continue their same irresponsible business practices. You want the govt to continue to intervene in these situations but the more they do, the larger the bill for the taxpayer and the more liberties we give up.

Of course govt has a role in the economy but it should first, and foremost, enforce the laws on the books now. As for the examples by Medved and Bortz, It's the obligation of the people, through their representatives, to make those types of societal changes, similar to MLK, the gay rights activists, or the environmentalists. Thats when we examine the merits of the proposed 'change'.

BTW, good post

 

[Lamarr]

Was it somethin I said?

 

[Lamarr]

Corporate Communism?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TvCN5ulzjTE&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TvCN5ulzjTE&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[nittie]

The best way to make capitialism work for everybody is turn off the tv and put down the newspapers. They are propaganda machines. They are part of the system. They frame issues in a way no real solutions can be reached.

Use the net to discuss ideas and form plans. It is still a wordwide communication network. It can literally moblilize the world. If issues are framed in a certain way, with a end in mind, the only thing left to do is form a plan and take action.