Then you saw for yourself how he played. You still don't think he was the dominant force in that French side?
Messi The Greatest Ever?
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Then you saw for yourself how he played. You still don't think he was the dominant force in that French side?
Seems silly comparing his exploits at the World Cup directly with previous winners, the majority of whom played in much balanced teams with superior supporting casts. That applies to Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Pele and most winners of the competition period.
He's played on teams no less talented than the teams Maradona played on. No excuses.
tevez
ageuro
javier zaniti
cambiasso
macherano
higuain
Sergio Romero
Ángel di María
Maxi Rodríguez
and these are just players i can think of.
the Netherlands played with a less talented squad and made it to the finals.
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You will note I didn't specifically mention Maradona. While I agree in general to your statement you have to look at the context as well. The 86 Argentina team while lacking in outright star names was superbly well organised, solid and a difficult team to breakdown. That gave Maradona an excellent platform to work from.
The 2010 Argie team was a joke defensively, they played four CBs across their backline and only had Masch with any defensive responsibility in midfield. It was a fundamentally flawed team that was set out to offensively no consideration of defence.
I mentioned Maradona to put it into perspective. My original argument was if you aren't the undisputed best in your country's history, you really arent in the argument for the best ever.
I don't think that's a big enough reason for Messi not to have any major impact and score zero goals. That's a reason for a team not to go far in the cup but not a reason for the "greatest ever" to be a non-factor.
I'm not arguing that he should have taken Argentina to the Finals. He just looks very ordinary when playing in the World Cup. He's beginning to look like a "system" player.... and he will be tarnished if he doesnt perform in the cup next year.
tevez
ageuro
javier zaniti
cambiasso
macherano
higuain
Sergio Romero
Ángel di María
Maxi Rodríguez
and these are just players i can think of.
the Netherlands played with a less talented squad and made it to the finals.
Exactly. Messi hasn't stepped up and carries his team. I saw a player like Zidane rape entire squads. Ronaldo score at will in the cup. Even Sneijder was beasting in the last cup... Messi never made a major impact.
Now Messi has won every single Ballon d'Or since the last cup. If he doesn't do shit in the world cup next year
the Netherlands played with a less talented squad and made it to the finals.[/QUOTE]
tevez
ageuro
javier zaniti
cambiasso
macherano
higuain
Sergio Romero
Ángel di María
Maxi Rodríguez
and these are just players i can think of.
Just looking at your list shows what i'm talking about. Zanetti and Cambiasso were not picked in the WC squad. The other 'name' players in italics are all attacking players. The Dutch team was balanced much more towards defense hence why they were able to go further.
Just listing a bunch of good attacking players does not mean that they had a good balanced team and system. Artgentina in 2010 were the exact opposite.
Exactly. Messi hasn't stepped up and carries his team. I saw a player like Zidane rape entire squads. Ronaldo score at will in the cup. Even Sneijder was beasting in the last cup... Messi never made a major impact.
Now Messi has won every single Ballon d'Or since the last cup. If he doesn't do shit in the world cup next year
I also disagree that Messi was a non-factor. He got 4 assists, was the main creator for the team and lack of goals aside played well. If any other player had put in his performances they would gain praise not criticism. I get that he has set higher standards so people expect more but objectively speaking he didn't have a "poor" world cup. He just didn't excel to the extent expected but then none of the form players did so in that World Cup.
You do realize the title of this thread right?
No player considered in the goat conversation would have been praised for that type of performance.
Yeah but then I didn't argue that he was I just debated some of the faulty arguments.
I don't see how he can be declared as such while he is still playing. You can only ask such questions at the end of his career.
For me I think it is ultimately an unproveable question. The various greats have all played in different eras in differing states of the game. Pointless debate as you can never compare the players objectively across different eras.
bro the Netherlands had similar team to argentina. the strongest players were all attacking players. the defense was shit. and they still made it. like eewll said there is no excuse they failed big time. even if zaniti and them didnt play. hell how old is javier anyway?
you act like the players i named are just random players. they are the top of the top. they all played for teams that won their cup in their leagues. again no excuse.
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But those arguments are not faulty within the content of the title (comparing him to all-time greats).
He's only 25 so he has more time. But he has 2 more world cups at most and thsi one coming up is the last when while he will be in his prime most likely. So it's probably now or never in terms of creating a world cup legacy...which is going to be necessary to get him into the top 5 of all time.
On paper they look similar but in reality the Netherlands were faaaar better organised. They played 6 man defensive unit with proper defenders and 2 sitting dms in Van Bommel and De Jong.
That is plainly not how Argentina were structured. They had 4 CBs in their defense, that alone is reason for disaster. Think about what i'm saying to you. They had no specialised wide defensive players in their team. Guess where 3 of the 4 goals Germany scored against them came from? The wide positions.
This is such a fundamental weakness that no team can be successful playing that way.
I think he will probably be considered top 5 at least when all is said and done. I'm interested in seeing what your current top 5 is?
To me it is all about the top 2 and then there are various players I could fill in the other three spots so I will just add several in no particular order
Pele
Maradona
Cruijff
Zidane
Garrincha
Ronaldo
Beckenbauer
Best
I can't take anyone off that list until Messi does something in the World Cup.
If he shows his ass in the world cup, he would shoot up the list.
they were even players in the team that won the champions league cup that year.heinze played wide defense for years. he s a CB. but he can play LB
1 GK Diego Pozo
2 DF Martín Demichelis
3 DF Clemente Rodríguez
4 DF Nicolás Burdisso
5 MF Mario Bolatti
6 DF Gabriel Heinze
7 MF Ángel di María
8 MF Juan Sebastián Verón
9 FW Gonzalo Higuaín
10 FW Lionel Messi
11 FW Carlos Tévez
12 DF Ariel Garcé
13 DF Walter Samuel
14 MF Javier Mascherano (c)
15 DF Nicolás Otamendi
16 FW Sergio Agüero
17 MF Jonás Gutiérrez
18 FW Martín Palermo
19 FW Diego Milito
20 MF Maxi Rodríguez
21 GK Mariano Andújar
22 GK Sergio Romero
23 MF Javier Pastore
football starts from the back i agree with you there, but still they had experienced players on that squad. their squad was better that the netherlands. you can talk about the defense but if the strikers or forwards dont do their jobs. then they will eat goals. see the thing with the netherlands was the strikers did their job. best defense is attacking. and argentina had a lot of those.
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Maradona cheated to win his one world cup, was so one legged that his right might as well have been a tree stump...
It can be argued because the world cup is about national pride, and the players put more on the line...The passions are higher. Club football is just a job. You can only understand this if you grew up in a football country.
The Netherlands never conceded more than 2 goals in any of their matches and only conceded 2 once. As I said earlier that gives the team a solid base to work from.
Watch the final again if you don't remember how defensive the Netherlands were. Bert van Marwijk was rounded criticised in the Netherlands post tournament for no playing "the Dutch way."
Lets imagine Messi had, had a stormer and scored a hat-trick against Germany. They would have still conceded the 4 goals and still lost. Yes they were a team built to out score the opposition but it rarely happens that a team so balanced towards attack and so haphazard toward their own defense is successful.
The opposite though can be true. Take the Greece team in Euro 2004. No outstanding attacking players, hell no outstanding players period. But resolutely structured and organised. Despite them being a poor attacking team they still won the whole damn Euros based on a tight knit defense.
So I think you are being naive placing so much emphasise on the quality of the Argentine attackers. They weren't so good to make up for the very obvious defensive weaknesses.
That is football, teams who focus on not getting beat or conceding silly goals tend to overperform relative to their quality compared to teams who focus purely on their attacking qualities.
Btw Heinze by 2010 was done. He shouldn't have been playing.
I would probably have a pretty similar list after the top 2. Maybe including the likes of Laudrup or maybe Ronaldinho (those 3 seasons were immense).
I do think with Messi that he does have World Cup domination msissing from his CV. He has started to play very well for the national team so he might play closer to his top level at the next tourney.
He has started to play very well for the national team so he might play closer to his top level at the next tourney.
He did Brazil dirty the last time they played
So that is why Im not going to give him a pass on the World Cup this year.
he played the dutch game they only critic he got was adding a extra defensive midfielder and putting a right leg on the left side and left leg on the right side. and o yeah not playing both hunterlaar en RVP. he still played with 3 attackers.
thats what im trying to explain to you. football is also a mental game. receivng a goal can fok up ur whole squad. let alone scoring 3. u really think that if messi scored 3 goals or even one that germany still would have one with 4-1? no it would have been a different game. prime example loook at brazil against the Netherlands. brazil was ahead with 1 goal. they started getting cocky received one goal and broke down mentally. and lost the game. again the dutch strikers did their job. look at barca their defense isnt top notch but how many times do you see valdes putting in some work?
if the forwards do their job well, there will be a lot less work for the defense to do. thats what im trying to explain to you.
so was van bommel, ooier and van bronckhorst but they still did their shit because like i said they had experience.
shit van bronckhorst was 35 and played his best tournament ever.
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I get where you are coming from and I don't disagree entirely. Goals do set the mood and alter momentum in matches. We can't say how the match would have changed, but what we can say is Germany's defense was organised and stopped the attacks. Argnetina's was a joke and always looked wide open.
I don't see how in a match where your defense and team structure totally fails you can lay the blame at the feet of the attackers. They may have done as well as they could but quite obviously the defense did far worse and virtually gave them no chance.
Germany scored in the 3rd minute. The match played perfectly into Germany's hands. They could counter Argentina for fun.
exactly that right their will fuk up ur whole strategy
nah i aint blaming they attackers im just saying they need to do their job too. we talking about the same thing. you are talking about being organized. me too.
the thing is if the strikers fail, the defenders will have to solve all those problems. and like you said when the defense isnt good, you will see the cracks right away. and thats how the organization fails. and that didnt happened with the Netherlands because everybody did their job.
but my thing is somebody as good as messi needs to score at least 1 goal in a match win or lose. hell all of them.
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Ronaldinho? Really?
exactly that right their will fuk up ur whole strategy
nah i aint blaming they attackers im just saying they need to do their job too. we talking about the same thing. you are talking about being organized. me too.
the thing is if the strikers fail, the defenders will have to solve all those problems. and like you said when the defense isnt good, you will see the cracks right away. and thats how the organization fails. and that didnt happened with the Netherlands because everybody did their job.
but my thing is somebody as good as messi needs to score at least 1 goal in a match win or lose. hell all of them.
Yup we are seeing it the same way just coming at from different angles.
From 2003 to 2006 he was untouched. If he could have kept it up instead of getting bored with it all he was on course to be an all time legend (and I think he still counts).
Doesn't make him a GOAT he just had a nice run.....the stuff Messi is doing now makes that run look like shit....
Which means Messi has no excuses this World Cup coming up.
He needs to dominate to be considered in the top 5.
Right now he is below Zidane, the maestro.
even a guy like Miroslav Klose comes to the world cup and beasts. Messi is better than him and should have more WC goals to show for it
exactly
I grew up in 2 countries one where 1966 is still talked about and the other Atlanta 96 was the high point. Still does not change how I feel about Club v International currently.
I wish its panned out differently for Ronaldinho it's shame but his run is the definition of leprechaun status. It blows my mind how he just fell off so quickly, there was not even a decline just boom to gone.
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Man mi will shot it inna it blood clart!!! Maradonna is a cheat!!! He's a cheat!!!
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and they even put cesc fabregas in messi role. they dont even play with a real striker
thats what im trying to say the real key to success are xavi and iniesta.
Zidane talks about the real Ronaldo and speaks the truth!
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