Kendrick Perkins on LBJ legacy - "A couple of more titles and that's it."

[KingTaharqa]

Exactly. I hate that basketball greatness has been reduced to the amount of rings you have. That shit didn't start until Jordan and his fanboys came along.

Its because Jordan only dominated in scoring. There's no other facet of the game that he dominated to that magnitude so his fans (as well as Kobe's) have to overvalue THEIR rings because their impact on the game is GROSSLY OVERSTATED. It's not a coincidence these dudes have been conditioned to only recognize the NBA in the era that David Stern commissioned it. And they dont even realize it.

He was a role player on the 2nd title. He wasn't even one of the best two players on the team.

Again, you Jordan fans scope of history is very limited outside of his era. Wilt Chamberlain was Finals MVP for his 2nd title, and it is often regarded as one of the best performances in Finals.

He averaged 30 points per game in the regular season and 22 points per game in the playoffs.

Using scoring totals ONLY to judge Wilt would be like me using rebounds ONLY to judge Jordan. Saying a guy that averaged 20 & 20 in the playoffs is a "bammer" is laughable. The fact Wilt COULD defer to his teammates scoring and still dominate the game by controlling the glass or being a defensive force in the paint puts him above Jordan. Jordan could only win jacking up shots, and most years that wasnt good enough. Until he had big men like Grant or Rodman to do the "dirty work" his scoring alone couldnt win you much. He has 9 seasons showcasing that. You probably think Russ disappeared in all those Finals he won because he was averaging only like 15 points per game. Yet pay no attention to to his 30 rebound performances and defensive impact. The game is much more than scoring, but I understand why the people who prop Jordan up think that.

During the second title, he was pretty much Dennis Rodman.

Rodman was never a Finals MVP. Show me a Finals Rodman averaged over 20 points. Show me a Finals Rodman shot 60-70% from the field. Another horrible comparison dude.

Just like Peyton Manning...regular season gawd... he wasn't going to carry you deep in the playoffs..just like Peyton.

Wilt took every team he played for to the Finals, even as an old man. MJ is like Emmit Smith, when he had the best around him he won, but just like Emmit in Arizona, when he didnt have that around him in Chicago & Washington, he got exposed. An early round exit in Chicago's early years and not even good enough to get a squad he built and GMed in the playoffs in Washington. Something LeBron did this very season. And its not like MJ wasnt an all star then and jacking up the most shots on his team.

Lebron is already better than Wilt.

Nope.

 

[DjMorpheus]

Back in the late 90's the NBA announced that they wanted a more international league and more parity... To me, I took it that they never wanted another Jordan type of player who was bigger than the league instead wanting more Euro trash players, so they set forth to creating a league that had rules to favor them while punishing the traditional athletic black players..
What they didn't count on was black players adapting to the new changes by becoming such great outside shooters (back then it was actually believed that white players shot better from the outside), and that a player like LeBron would come along and defy what the league wants and win in spite of these wack ass new rules..

 

[tuckdog]

I was born in 83 so try again nigga

Sure buddy.

 

[silentking]

If you think that Heat team was all time great we really have nothing else to talk about, sir.

In terms of superstars stacked on a team, yeah it ranks pretty high.

PS: they won 2 out of 4 and the only reason it wasn't 4 out of 4 is Wade thought he was gonna ride the LBJ train into basketball immortality and Bosh is a bitch.

We see this differently. I say the only reason they didnt lose 3/4 is cuz the Spurs gave the first one away. Opinion and perspective my man.

 

[unknownsoldier]

the zen master over thinking? hmmm

how? first things first, he cleared a lot of bad deals off their books! He's done a pretty good job at that so far. Now it's time to see how he builds the roster. I don't think the triangle works & he fucked up with the Fisher hire, but he has time to change course. The dude got to the Bulls for winning the CBA title his tree sucks, but so does Pop's...his guys flame out pretty much everywhere they go.

 

[KingTaharqa]

Since no one answered, we can conclude Michael Jordan NEVER EVER EVER EVER won anything without top 50 Hall of Fame player Scottie Pippen by his side. ALL Jordan fanatics downplay Scottie's greatness to make Jordan seem like a more singular talent. He was a dominant scorer, but could not win a single playoff series without him. Scottie, as well as BJ Armstrong and Ho Grant had their best seasons WITHOUT MJ, and won a playoff series. Michael Jordan was not good enough to carry a team by himself. He NEVER ever ever posted a winning record in that scenario in the NBA. These are all facts. LeBron has proven he can win with scrubs and mediocre coaching. This discussion has evolved A LOT over the years. Its gone from cats getting furious at it to now having to admit its legit.

 

[Spectrum]

Its because Jordan only dominated in scoring. .

You're infatuated with Michael Jordan. You made your entire reply as a discussion about Michael Jordan and I didn't even mention him.

Talking about him is boring at this point.

Lebron James has a bigger impact on WINNING than Wilt Chamberlain and that shouldn't even be up for discussion at this point. Wilt is a stat god like Peyton Manning.

Wilt has been a Finals MVP ONCE. Like I said.. regular season gawd and post-season human. Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars, Kawhi Leonard, etc have been able to pull that off.

When it comes to winning in the playoffs.. Duncan, Shaq, etc have been more dominant and it wasn't because they were on more dominant teams.
Duncan.

In the 1962, this scoring averaged dropped 15 points in the playoffs. In 1968, same shit. almost 10 points less a game in the playoffs.

This sums it up best

"I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser...He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West...these are clutch competitors."

- Rick Barry

Now ultimately, you'll find other players (even Barry) giving Wilt mad props..even the players that criticized him (saying they would build a team around him), but this comes up pretty consistently and might explain him coming up short in the post-season so often.

 

[Spectrum]

Since no one answered, we can conclude Michael Jordan NEVER EVER EVER EVER won anything without top 50 Hall of Fame player Scottie Pippen by his side..

And without a great coach. That can be said for a lot of players though.

Lebron winning with this team and this coach, in my opinion, trumps all Bulls' seasons besides the 72 win season as an individual season accomplishment imo.

I'm out of this thread, but Wilt is over-rated. His own peers knew he didn't want it with the game on the line in the big games. Lebron >>> Wilt. You can't even make a definitive argument for Wilt as the greatest center of all time. I'm not saying you can't believe it, but there are legitimate arguments for several centers.

 

[RoadRage]

You're infatuated with Michael Jordan. You made your entire reply as a discussion about Michael Jordan and I didn't even mention him.

Talking about him is boring at this point.

Lebron James has a bigger impact on WINNING than Wilt Chamberlain and that shouldn't even be up for discussion at this point. Wilt is a stat god like Peyton Manning.

Wilt has been a Finals MVP ONCE. Like I said.. regular season gawd and post-season human. Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars, Kawhi Leonard, etc have been able to pull that off.

When it comes to winning in the playoffs.. Duncan, Shaq, etc have been more dominant and it wasn't because they were on more dominant teams.
Duncan.

In the 1962, this scoring averaged dropped 15 points in the playoffs. In 1968, same shit. almost 10 points less a game in the playoffs.

This sums it up best

"I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser...He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West...these are clutch competitors."

- Rick Barry

This is why who is the greatest ever is such a subjective issue, and not something that can be answered simply on only stats and championships alone..

 

[Spectrum]

This is why who is the greatest ever is such a subjective issue, and not something that can be answered simply on only stats and championships alone..

Yep. It just has to be a greatest of his era thing... with boxing, baseball and all that shit.

 

[Spectrum]

Win or lose (this season), it's clear that Lebron is this era's best player. And I guess anyone who was the clear best of their era should be in the GOAT argument if you make one. He'll have the quantitative and qualitative stats to be there. I think Lebron could retire this season and be in the argument, easily.

 

[unknownsoldier]

This is why who is the greatest ever is such a subjective issue, and not something that can be answered simply on only stats and championships alone..

Yep. It just has to be a greatest of his era thing... with boxing, baseball and all that shit.

It's a round table...

 

[silentking]

This is why who is the greatest ever is such a subjective issue, and not something that can be answered simply on only stats and championships alone..

Yep. It just has to be a greatest of his era thing... with boxing, baseball and all that shit.

I agree. Its damn near impossible to compare players of different eras...too many x factors.

 

[Spectrum]

I used to wonder who I would take first (magic or jordan) because it's not just about who you think is "best"... replacement value comes into play. For instance, if someone takes Wilt, are you crying because you might have to take Kareem, Shaq, etc. You think about this when building companies too. Someone might be your best employee but someone else might be extremely versatile and the most difficult to replace.

I think Lebron is the game's most versatile player, ever. He literally has no position on the court. He floats between the 3 and 4 on the defense..but he'll switch up at the end to defend a hot 1 or 2 to try to get the stop. He pretty slides from point forward to power forward, etc on the offensive end. The shit's truly incredible. That's why you can lose a guy like Love and it not hurt that much. Kyrie being hurt doesn't kill them because Lebron can play the primary ball-handler.

Some people do a few things extremely fucking well and are the best in the world at it. Some people do so many things very good (not the best) but very good that it's all extremely rare as well.

 

[RoadRage]

I used to wonder who I would take first (magic or jordan) because it's not just about who you think is "best"... replacement value comes into play. You think about this when building companies too. Someone might be your best employee but someone else might be extremely versatile and the most difficult to replace.

I think Lebron is the games most versatile player, ever. He literally has no position on the court. He floats between the 3 and 4 on the defense..but he'll switch up at the end to defend a hot 1 or 2 to try to get the stop. He pretty slides from point forward to power forward, etc on the offensive end. The shit's truly incredible. That's why you can lose a guy like Love and it not hurt that much.

You know whats funny, LeBron (like most great players) is a product of his environment and had to adapt this way due to the way the game is played today... Who's to say that he wouldn't have been more like Jordan in his era or Jordan more like LeBron in todays game..
Which goes to show that all athletes adapt to the way the game is played, so even something as simple as style of play becomes subject to the era they play in.

 

[Spectrum]

You know whats funny, LeBron (like most great players) is a product of his environment and had to adapt this way due to the way the game is played today... Who's to say that he wouldn't have been more like Jordan in his era or Jordan more like LeBron in todays game..
Which goes to show that all athletes adapt to the way the game is played, so even something as simple as style of play becomes subject to the era they play in.

Agreed.

Jordan had a time where he was running off triple doubles when he had to play point guard. So yeah, great players can do some amazing shit.

I think the major difference though is that Lebron has to the body to consistently do it. He's an exceptional combination of size and strength (outside of the other skills). So he can be your primarily ball handler and then defend the 4 position just as long as it's not a really great 4. It gives you incredible flexibility as a team.

I know the Hawks aint shit but the Cavs are playing right now without 2 of their all stars man...

 

[silentking]

Win or lose (this season), it's clear that Lebron is this era's best player. And I guess anyone who was the clear best of their era should be in the GOAT argument if you make one. He'll have the quantitative and qualitative stats to be there. I think Lebron could retire this season and be in the argument, easily.

I agree about 95% with this. I think Bron is clearly in any discussion at this point. But I think in other eras....the argument was more clear. Russell...Jordan...not really a question that they were the greatest of their eras. Lebron played in the same era as Kobe and Duncan and there is still some argument to be had there as to who overall is the greatest of that/this era, regardless of which side of that argument you fall on. Duncan won rings in 3 different decades and was a huge factor in each....Kobe shouldered the criticism of having won his 3 with Shaq and then came back and won 2 more without him...Bron is...Bron. The conversation will be easier when Bron is done playing, but for now its still not entirely clear to me. But its stuff like this that keep sports debates going and keeps them spirited. Opinion and perspective. My perspective on GOAT status is that GOATS had the stats, leadership ability, clear will to win...and actually won more than their contemporaries. In my opinion, Bron still has some ground to cover on a few of those to get to the point that its unquestionable.

 

[KingTaharqa]

You're infatuated with Michael Jordan. You made your entire reply as a discussion about Michael Jordan and I didn't even mention him.

Because your emphasis on scoring ONLY with no care for % is clearly a slant to Jordan who you consider the GOAT. I've never seen you mention Kareem or even Russ as the GOAT in these discussions. Don't shy away now.

Lebron James has a bigger impact on WINNING than Wilt Chamberlain and that shouldn't even be up for discussion at this point. Wilt is a stat god like Peyton Manning.

Wilt won with 2 franchises and took 3 different ones to the Finals. That is to be seen. LeBron also never faced a dynasty the magnitude of the 1960's Celtics. You havent referenced that once and act as if Wilt choked against pushovers every year. NO ONE ate in the 60's but the C's. Jerry West & Oscar Robertson ONLY have a chip a piece. Are you gonna imply they were "bammers" in the playoffs too?

Wilt has been a Finals MVP ONCE. Like I said.. regular season gawd and post-season human. Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars, Kawhi Leonard, etc have been able to pull that off.

And Bill Russell was never Finals MVP. The award was created in the early 70's to reward guys like Wilt & Russell for stepping up on the biggest stage. Wilt would've won the award for his first title as he led his team in every category EXCEPT scoring which his high FG% shows he did by choice. Finals MVP is just 1 piece of 1's body of work as well.

When it comes to winning in the playoffs.. Duncan, Shaq, etc have been more dominant and it wasn't because they were on more dominant teams.
Duncan.

Duncan & Shaq have not been more dominant. Neither averaged 20 & 20 for their playoff careers or hold the records Wilt has in the playoffs. Duncan won his first 2 titles playing with a HOF center who had been league MVP, scoring champion, and 1 of the best defensive players before Tim even got there. He won his last 3 playing with a HOF PG & HOF 2 guard. He's always had the same future HOF coach. You cant tell me 1 of Wilt's coaches names without googlin it, and Wilt played on lesser talented teams for years. Shaq was swept out of the playoffs too many times to be considered more dominant.

In the 1962, this scoring averaged dropped 15 points in the playoffs. In 1968, same shit. almost 10 points less a game in the playoffs.

What about his FG% did that drop too? And again using scoring ONLY to paint a picture of Wilt as an underachiever. He only averaged 17 points in 1967 Finals, according to you he didnt show up.

"I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser...He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West...these are clutch competitors."

- Rick Barry

Wilt won his first chip against Rick Barry. And here is Barry calling Wilt the GOAT, better than Shaq, Russell, Jordan, and Kareem...

 

[BDR]

 

[Spectrum]

ayed in the same era as Kobe and Duncan and there is still some argument to be had there as to who overall is the greatest of that/this era, regardless of which side of that argument you fall on. Duncan won rings in 3 different decades and was a huge factor in each....

That's true. I'm kind of overlooking Duncan and he's pretty much been the anchor of a dynasty and greatest PF of all-time.

 

[Spectrum]

 

[Spectrum]

Because your emphasis on scoring ONLY with no care for % is clearly a slant to Jordan who you consider the GOAT. I've

I'm talking about the significant drop in production. His overall production dropped and scoring is just the most significant part of his drop. It's striking to see those types of drops from regular season to the playoffs. Some blamed it on coaching changes (like the 68 squad) but for whatever reason, it happened.

If someone was trying to load the game for Jordan, they would use 6 NBA Finals MVPs. The major difference between Wilt and Jordan wasn't scoring. I'm not even comparing the two because it's almost silly to compare a #2 and a #5 who played 40 years apart.

I don't consider Jordan the GOAT. I honestly don't believe in those arguments anymore unless it's something that's so clear cut, you can't argue it. Jordan was the best of his era.

 

[KingTaharqa]

I'm talking about the significant drop in production. His overall production dropped and scoring is just the most significant part.

I don't consider Jordan the GOAT. I honestly don't believe in those arguments anymore unless it's something that's so clear cut, you can't argue it. Jordan was the best of his era.

The only thing that dropped was his FG attempts because he was playing team basketball. 22.5 points, 24.5 rebounds, 4.2 assists while shooting 52% is not a drop in production fam. 52% shooting is higher than Jordan in the playoffs. Wilt is #3 in career scoring average in elimination games (30 ppg) behind Bron & MJ, so the production is there.

 

[Mask]

Damn this thread is on it's 5th page

 

[Spectrum]

52% shooting is higher than Jordan in the playoffs. .

He's supposed to shoot higher than a 2. He's a center!! He played underneath the basket.

It's a production drop from what he did in the regular season, fam. That's all I'm saying man... something caused him to be less dominant deep in the playoffs than he was in the regular season...and I'm still accounting for the series where he increased his rebounding production. And you're just using ONE year. It's multiple seasons like that and in every season it wasn't because he was grabbing more rebounds or getting more assists. He was just neutralized a bit. There was a drop in PER (if that kind of stat actually means anything). Now we can blame it on his teams...where they could focus on Wilt...but that's another argument.

Duncan has carried teams to the finals over 3 decades. He certainly has been as dominant as Wilt if being the centerpiece of a title team means something. That's crazy yo... you're stat chasing.

 

[Spectrum]

I'm out...but Lebron taking that bum ass Cavs' team to the finals as a kid and dragging this one (with Love out and with Kyrie clearly not at 100 percent) has to count for something regardless of the East being weak...regardless of if they win or not as long as he stays as productive as he has been.

Think about this...He's out there with these starters (or JR smith gonna start this game)

Dellavedova
Shump
Thompson
Mozgov

 

[largebillsonlyplease]

how? first things first, he cleared a lot of bad deals off their books! He's done a pretty good job at that so far. Now it's time to see how he builds the roster. I don't think the triangle works & he fucked up with the Fisher hire, but he has time to change course. The dude got to the Bulls for winning the CBA title his tree sucks, but so does Pop's...his guys flame out pretty much everywhere they go.

i didn't say he was i was just playing withe concept of dumar over thinking and someone who calls himself the zen master being able to NOT over think when that's supposed to be his thing "thinking'

that's all fam

 

[xfactor]

I'm out...but Lebron taking that bum ass Cavs' team to the finals as a kid and dragging this one (with Love out and with Kyrie clearly not at 100 percent) has to count for something regardless of the East being weak...regardless of if they win or not as long as he stays as productive as he has been.

Think about this...He's out there with these starters (or JR smith gonna start this game)

Dellavedova
Shump
Thompson
Mozgov

The same guys that Carmelo Anthony was leading to a top 4 pick in the draft



And there is no way that Blatt is a better coach than Fisher even if Fisher is awful as a coach.

EDIT: there is no way that Blatt is THAT much better a coach than Fisher to take a team from bottom 4 to top 4

 

[tuckdog]

In terms of superstars stacked on a team, yeah it ranks pretty high.



We see this differently. I say the only reason they didnt lose 3/4 is cuz the Spurs gave the first one away. Opinion and perspective my man.

Wade and Bosh looked like Lebrons old Cavs teammates most of that run. They weren't even a top 5 Big 3.

 

[Spectrum]

The same guys that Carmelo Anthony was leading to a top 4 pick in the draft



And there is no way that Blatt is a better coach than Fisher even if Fisher is awful as a coach.

Yeah man... two cats from the Knicks are the main contributors..I mean JR Smith looks like a new player...shooting well, hustling, playing smart on the court...

 

[tuckdog]

Since no one answered, we can conclude Michael Jordan NEVER EVER EVER EVER won anything without top 50 Hall of Fame player Scottie Pippen by his side. ALL Jordan fanatics downplay Scottie's greatness to make Jordan seem like a more singular talent. He was a dominant scorer, but could not win a single playoff series without him. Scottie, as well as BJ Armstrong and Ho Grant had their best seasons WITHOUT MJ, and won a playoff series. Michael Jordan was not good enough to carry a team by himself. He NEVER ever ever posted a winning record in that scenario in the NBA. These are all facts. LeBron has proven he can win with scrubs and mediocre coaching. This discussion has evolved A LOT over the years. Its gone from cats getting furious at it to now having to admit its legit.

Lebron is Jordan and Pip in one.

 

[Spectrum]

Wade and Bosh looked like Lebrons old Cavs teammates most of that run. They weren't even a top 5 Big 3.

Naw..not most of it.just the last year... If Lebron would have given them SOMETHING in the first season Finals against the Mavs, they might have had a chance.. he had really bad finals against the Mavs..Bosh was pretty much consistent the entire time.. and he sacrificed his game to make it work.. Wade was a shell of himself last year though.

Lebron was playing on a stacked team in Miami.. I'm not hearing that not having a good team bullshit while in Miami. They had multiple superstars, role players, vets, shooters, bench...

 

[Chitownheadbusa]

Damn this thread is on it's 5th page

Thats cause KingTaharqa cant release LBJ's dick from his hands.

 

[2 ONE 3]

Got damnit nigga

 

[KingTaharqa]

Thats cause KingTaharqa cant release LBJ's dick from his hands.

Jordan fanatics like yourself take on his personality so much its scary. Insecure, self absorbed, very sensitive to criticism, low level of respect for the pioneers before him, etc. Just me pointing out the flaws in Jordan's game and the trials and tribulations he went thru upsets you. Most Jordan fans like yourself can name Jordan's 3-4 best games but gotta google his 3-4 worst. Outta sight, outta mind, pretend like it never happened. Thats why I say there is no way he can be the GOAT. To have to pretend he never lost or come up short is too big an insecurity for someone that is supposed to be the unquestioned best.