Is Manny Pacquiao the Most Overrated Boxer of All Time?

merce77

Star
Registered
20705.jpg

While some of Manny Pacquiao’s more enthusiastic fans are sharpening their pitchforks and preparing to take aim at anyone daring to question His Highness, the question must be asked:

Is Pacquiao overrated?

Despite fighting in a much weaker era of boxing than pugilists from past decades, the Filipino superstar has been defeated more than a couple of times during his career.

Unlike Floyd Mayweather Jr., who has fought in the same weak era but can at least pride himself of being the best of this bunch, Pacquiao’s losses immediately put his status amongst the true boxing legends in question.

That’s not to say going undefeated means you’re automatically an amazing fighter, of course. Plenty of no-names have gone undefeated simply because they don’t fight any real opponents. That’s not the case with Mayweather Jr., though.

Now, it’s important to define what ‘overrated’ means. The word in its everyday use isn’t synonymous with bad. It simply means, “Not all it’s cracked up to be.” Nobody is trying to peddle the notion that Pacquiao is bad or merely average – he's a very good fighter, but overhyped.

Pacquiao is being sold to the public as an all-time great. A legend in the sport. Someone who, when it's all said and done, could be considered amongst the top 10, 15 or 20 boxers of all time.

Regardless of what his loyal cult followers believe, Pacquiao doesn’t deserve to be in that discussion.

Often times, Pacquiao was manufactured to be the nice guy (read: anti-Mayweather) that boxing fans should get behind during a time when the sport desperately needed a friendly face.

Remember, Mayweather Jr. quickly embraced his role as the villain. The bad guy you hate with a vengeance, whose big mouth you pray, wish and hope will finally meet a power-packed fist.

Pacquiao, for better or worse, emerged as the white knight to Mayweather Jr. The humble, quiet efficient fighter who does everything his rival does – only without the brashness. A role model. A beloved international figure.

The guy boxing wants us to cheer for.

After all, now that Pacquiao has opted to fight ‘Splenda’ Shane Mosley in his next match – is there anyone who still believes that Top Rank head honcho Bob Arum isn’t the guy with his hand up the puppet? That he isn’t the one who pulls every last string belonging to the Filipino superstar and dictates when, where and who he’ll fight?

Heck, every word out of Pacquiao’s mouth probably gets the green check of approval from Arum.

And, in return, he’s the Top Rank boss’ biggest prize. The cash cow that -- even in a declining boxing market with diminished returns -- can still deliver a big pay day.

With so much on the line for the people who control Pacquiao, why would any of them want their eight-division champion to fight difficult opponents? Lose to one of them, and the cash flow may become a trickle, especially if Pacquiao calls it quits. In other words, if you're from the Arum Clan, you want Pacquiao to fight somebody who is just barely respectable yet poses no threat to the money-printing machine.

It’s been said many times -- by me -- that Pacquiao’s opponents can be characterized as either has-beens, cheaters or fill-ins.

Forget the upcoming match with ‘Splenda’ Mosley, who clearly falls into the has-beens pile. Don’t even bother trudging up the memories of the way Pacquiao ducked him in favor of Miguel Cotto -- who wasn’t even willing to make the same pre-fight weight and money sacrifices as Mosley -- when the former was in his prime and ready to do some damage.

Instead, think back to that actual fight with Cotto. This wasn’t the same Cotto who got that 12-round decision over Mosley when he finally got around to fighting Pacquiao. No, the spark the fighter had earlier in his career was clearly gone. Instead, Pacquiao used an eventual 12-round knockout to beat an opponent who didn’t look anywhere nearly as good as he did in 2007.

The has-been pile of fighters appears to be Pacquiao’s personal favorite. Big names that draw a lot of interest, yet who are no real threat anymore.

Oscar De La Hoya fit that bill when he squared off against the Filipino rock star. With a brilliant marketing campaign launched by Golden Boy and mimicked by Top Rank, this somehow became billed as a “Dream Fight.” Whose dream, exactly, nobody really got to ask. As expected, it was a massacre of epic proportions and the once-great De La Hoya had neither the legs nor the stamina to keep up with a younger, faster, smaller fighter in Pacquiao.

In summation – that bout didn’t prove much either.

Moving on to perhaps the most disgusting display of money-grubbing in recent memory out of Pacquiao’s camp (aside from the scheduled ‘Splenda’ fight): Joshua Clottey.

I mean, seriously. Was there anyone who gave Clottey any shot at all in this match-up? After annoying Mayweather -- the fighter everyone actually wanted to see him fight -- with incessant excuses on why he wouldn’t take reasonable drug tests, Pacquiao claimed an easy win against this punching bag with a pulse. With a clearly over-matched opponent in front of him, Pacquiao fought an un-inspired and boring match that did little more than boost his earnings and his statistics.

Again, that bout didn't prove much.

There is no point in even bringing up Ricky Hatton when everyone knows the British brawler was overhyped and troubled by the time his match with Pacquiao rolled around.

Say it with me: That bout didn't prove anything.

Even his most recent fight with Antonio Margarito served more as a testament to the weak selection of fighters that Pacquiao is fighting against. A known, proven cheater who everyone knew was in over his head without his illegal substances squared off against the next Filipino president simply because he decided to get in bed with Arum’s group.

And, to make matters worse, Top Rank tried to insult the public’s intelligence by resorting to WWE style trickery and pretending that Pacquiao wasn’t ready for this bout just so that people would think it could possibly be close. Worst training we've seen in years! His sparring partners are better than he is! We're worried! He's not focused! He's fat! He's slow!

Ridiculous.

The only time Pacquiao faced a legitimate competitor was Juan Manual Marquez. In those contests, Pacquiao hardly proved he was the better fighter. One of their fights easily could have gone to Marquez, and Pacquiao’s reluctance to face him again -- instead of ‘Splenda’ -- in his next match speaks volumes.

If you go down the line it becomes clear: Pacquiao is the beneficiary of fighting in a weak era and had favorable fights chosen for him by his slick little friend at Top Rank. That, coupled with the fact that he constantly forced his opponents to drop to a lower weight class with his catch weight fights, has created a flimsy, house-of-cards legacy for Pacquiao.

He has the wins, he has the numbers – but there is no substance there.

Keep in mind, no boxers are immune to this analysis. For years, despite an unblemished record, Mayweather Jr. was discussed as possibly being overrated because of the lack of credible fighters during his heyday.

Pacquiao is no different. He’s made a career out of fighting nobodies, has-beens and former cheaters. His lying promoters have hyped him as the greatest thing since Jack Johnson because he carries with him an international fan base that American fighters don’t seem to have (even though Mayweather is still a bigger pay-per-view draw).

It’s not too late for Pacquiao to turn things around and prove the doubters wrong. Though, with the goon squad up at Top Rank running his career, it’s doubtful that he will. When the Filipino superstar’s pride finally kicks in and he decides he actually wants to earn the “people’s champ” title that he falsely wears at the moment, three fighters await that could cement his legacy: Juan Manual Marquez, Sergio Martinez and – most important – Floyd Mayweather Jr.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Damn. If people start talking about Manny in that top 15-20 all time, p4p list, then he's overrated. But he is an all time great and he deserves to be recognized as p4p king right now (though I'd vote for Sergio Martinez right now).
 

Spectrum

Elite Poster
BGOL Investor
I think the verdict is out. If he fights and beats Marquez convincingly at 142. If he does fight and beat Floyd at welter.

It is hard to tell because of the fighters he has been matched up with over his last few fights with the catchweights and with them coming off losses, etc.

Floyd and Pacman both had a chance to put all the question about both of their legacies to rest if they fought each other...smh
 

merce77

Star
Registered
I think the verdict is out. If he fights and beats Marquez convincingly at 142. If he does fight and beat Floyd at welter.

It is hard to tell because of the fighters he has been matched up with over his last few fights with the catchweights and with them coming off losses, etc.

Floyd and Pacman both had a chance to put all the question about both of their legacies to rest if they fought each other...smh

And that's why this era of boxing is so weak. The best won't fight the best.
 

(0_0)..l.. finger

A GOD
Certified Pussy Poster
Pacquiao is a very overrated boxer, until he starts having more black boxers that he defeated on his list.............
 

TJervey

Support BGOL
Registered
Its very easy to discount a fighter as shot after a loss. Cotto had beaten shane at the time he fought manny and because of the way he lost oh.... he was shot. All fighters have had their share of struggles due to styles. Floyd struggled with agustus and castillo who went on to lose to less talented fighter?! Manny loses points because of his handpicking of opponents but to an extent this has always been the case. Floyds greatest gift is to dodge a challenge and then when the fighter loses he responds like he was a prophet and knew the fighter was garbage?! Roy jones to a point as well. Do I think Manny is overrated, no. Do I view him as an all time top 20 guy? No. His he the best fighter p4p now? IMO yes because he not only wins but he dominates! Does he beat Floyd I don't know but to call him overrated is stupid and to discount his wins but glorify floyds wins against common opponents is a truly biased opinion.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Its very easy to discount a fighter as shot after a loss. Cotto had beaten shane at the time he fought manny and because of the way he lost oh.... he was shot.

TJ, that's not what happened. While it may have been said he was in decline, no one thought Mosley was shot after the Cotto loss. He fought a great fight in that one. Cotto didn't fight Manny until after he had taken the Margarito beating, something Roach publicly said he thought still affected him. In their minds, that beating and making him weigh in at 145 would negatively affect him.

All fighters have had their share of struggles due to styles. Floyd struggled with agustus and castillo who went on to lose to less talented fighter?! Manny loses points because of his handpicking of opponents but to an extent this has always been the case. Floyds greatest gift is to dodge a challenge and then when the fighter loses he responds like he was a prophet and knew the fighter was garbage?! Roy jones to a point as well. Do I think Manny is overrated, no. Do I view him as an all time top 20 guy? No.

That's really the question. If he's not a top 20 all time guy but he's starting to get hyped like one, doesn't that make him "overrated". I don't think anyone's disputing his current standing but his standing all time that's at issue with this particular writer.



His he the best fighter p4p now? IMO yes because he not only wins but he dominates! Does he beat Floyd I don't know but to call him overrated is stupid and to discount his wins but glorify floyds wins against common opponents is a truly biased opinion.

Is it really biased to say Floyd's win over Oscar was more significant than Manny's? Wasn't Shane's win over Oscar more significant than Floyd's?
Hatton wasn't on the level of either of them but Floyd will always get the credit for giving him his first defeat.
 

TJervey

Support BGOL
Registered
TJ, that's not what happened. While it may have been said he was in decline, no one thought Mosley was shot after the Cotto loss. He fought a great fight in that one. Cotto didn't fight Manny until after he had taken the Margarito beating, something Roach publicly said he thought still affected him. In their minds, that beating and making him weigh in at 145 would negatively affect him.



That's really the question. If he's not a top 20 all time guy but he's starting to get hyped like one, doesn't that make him "overrated". I don't think anyone's disputing his current standing but his standing all time that's at issue with this particular writer.





Is it really biased to say Floyd's win over Oscar was more significant than Manny's? Wasn't Shane's win over Oscar more significant than Floyd's?
Hatton wasn't on the level of either of them but Floyd will always get the credit for giving him his first defeat.

I definitely see your points concerning common opponents but my point is, and I guess I truly like dominant guys, is the way Manny fights and wins. All time status is really subjective and honestly you can not only look at the weakness of an era but home the top guys are beating their contemporaries which manny has done more dominantly than a lot of the all time greats which is why I think some people mention him in those circles. Oscar may have been washed when manny fought him but he was definitely a declined fighter when floyd beat him as well. Floyd won a split decision and manny destroyed him! You can't glorify floyds split decision but discount mannys dominate performance, takinng oscars heart and making him quit! Do I see manny beating some of the all time guys rated ahead of him if they fought? Definitely, because of stylistic issues, the same way I see him losing to some. The same thing with. Floyd.
 

merce77

Star
Registered
I definitely see your points concerning common opponents but my point is, and I guess I truly like dominant guys, is the way Manny fights and wins. All time status is really subjective and honestly you can not only look at the weakness of an era but home the top guys are beating their contemporaries which manny has done more dominantly than a lot of the all time greats which is why I think some people mention him in those circles. Oscar may have been washed when manny fought him but he was definitely a declined fighter when floyd beat him as well. Floyd won a split decision and manny destroyed him! You can't glorify floyds split decision but discount mannys dominate performance, takinng oscars heart and making him quit! Do I see manny beating some of the all time guys rated ahead of him if they fought? Definitely, because of stylistic issues, the same way I see him losing to some. The same thing with. Floyd.

When I judge all time status I take a few things into account. The era in which said fighter fought in. Was it strong, meaning how many other fighters in or around his division could you call great. His resume of course, and what kind of fighters were his biggest wins against, were they against great fighters? How old were these fighters he beat, because names alone don't mean shit. Sure Rocky Marciano owns wins against Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis and Archie Moore but what these white dudes who blow him up neglect to say most of the time is that these men were way over the hill when Rocky beat them. Does that subtract from the greatness of those victories? Of course it does, without doubt. Lastly, what kind of impact did this fighter have upon the sport of boxing or even sports itself. Now this is a tricky one because it depends on so many other factors. Would I consider Manny Pacqiao a BETTER fighter than Juan Manuel Marquez, NOPE. Marquez is a master technician and right up there with Floyd and Hopkins as one of the best "thinking man's" fighters of this era. But how many people know Marquez as compared to Pacquiao? Surely the hardcore fans but outside of boxing itself? If other athletes or celebrities know his name it's either because he fought Manny twice or they themselves are among the hardcore boxing fans.

My own issue is this: does Manny's status among the media and pop culture, and his god like status in his country trump his being very smartly matched against guys who were over the hill or coming off bad losses, or his winning some of his biggest fights at catchweights, or eventually, him never having fought Marquez a 3rd time or god forbid, never having fought Mayweather? My answer is no, popularity and image only get you so far. Is Manny a great fighter? Yes. But is the media out of control with giving top twenty, top ten, and in some cases even laughably calling him the GOAT? Yes that shit is way off base, when even Freddie Roach is quoted as saying he'd put his money on Duran if him and Manny ever fought. No comparison with some of the true all time greats imo. We also have to remember bob Arum's role in all this. I'm sure Bob has had to grease a lot of pockets along the way, dude has thrown around a lot of money to blow Manny up this big.
 

Zeferino

Rising Star
Platinum Member
I think Pacquiao has earned the respect he's getting just like Mayweather has and just like Roy Jones did. I don't think any of those three guys are overrated. Pac's dominance cannot be denied and he takes guys out in style just like Hamed used to say. Mayweather used to do this but has really slowed down over the years as far as activity. If anything about Mayweather is overrated, I'd say it's his defense but not his status or accomplishments. Roy Jones Jr just dealt with what he had in front of him and there was a time when you could look at guys in the top five at 160, 168, 175, and 190 and find at least two or three fighters in each division that were destroyed by Roy Jones. As far as overrated, I've always felt Oscar de la Hoya was the most overhyped and overrated of all time.
 

Alaskanredman

Star
Registered
Until Mayweather and Pac fight each other... they'll never will be respected as apart the greatests by true heads, because they are the best opponents in their division.


For the rest... even if they fight Khan, Bradley, Alexander, Marquez, Williams and Martinez... fortunately or unfortunately... legacies in the mainstream history books are based on rivalries between the most well known fighters.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
I definitely see your points concerning common opponents but my point is, and I guess I truly like dominant guys, is the way Manny fights and wins. All time status is really subjective and honestly you can not only look at the weakness of an era but home the top guys are beating their contemporaries which manny has done more dominantly than a lot of the all time greats which is why I think some people mention him in those circles. Oscar may have been washed when manny fought him but he was definitely a declined fighter when floyd beat him as well. Floyd won a split decision and manny destroyed him! You can't glorify floyds split decision but discount mannys dominate performance, takinng oscars heart and making him quit! Do I see manny beating some of the all time guys rated ahead of him if they fought? Definitely, because of stylistic issues, the same way I see him losing to some. The same thing with. Floyd.

On that very narrow point, I do give more credence to the Mayweather win because he beat a bigger, closer to his prime Oscar than Manny did.
Like the Mayweather wins over Gatti, Baldomir, and JMM, Pacquiao can only get so much credit for beating up Clottey and Margarito. He dominated guys he was supposed to dominate. You couldn't draw up better opponents for him to beat up.

When I judge all time status I take a few things into account. The era in which said fighter fought in. Was it strong, meaning how many other fighters in or around his division could you call great. His resume of course, and what kind of fighters were his biggest wins against, were they against great fighters? How old were these fighters he beat, because names alone don't mean shit. Sure Rocky Marciano owns wins against Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis and Archie Moore but what these white dudes who blow him up neglect to say most of the time is that these men were way over the hill when Rocky beat them. Does that subtract from the greatness of those victories? Of course it does, without doubt. Lastly, what kind of impact did this fighter have upon the sport of boxing or even sports itself. Now this is a tricky one because it depends on so many other factors. Would I consider Manny Pacqiao a BETTER fighter than Juan Manuel Marquez, NOPE. Marquez is a master technician and right up there with Floyd and Hopkins as one of the best "thinking man's" fighters of this era. But how many people know Marquez as compared to Pacquiao? Surely the hardcore fans but outside of boxing itself? If other athletes or celebrities know his name it's either because he fought Manny twice or they themselves are among the hardcore boxing fans.

My own issue is this: does Manny's status among the media and pop culture, and his god like status in his country trump his being very smartly matched against guys who were over the hill or coming off bad losses, or his winning some of his biggest fights at catchweights, or eventually, him never having fought Marquez a 3rd time or god forbid, never having fought Mayweather? My answer is no, popularity and image only get you so far. Is Manny a great fighter? Yes. But is the media out of control with giving top twenty, top ten, and in some cases even laughably calling him the GOAT? Yes that shit is way off base, when even Freddie Roach is quoted as saying he'd put his money on Duran if him and Manny ever fought. No comparison with some of the true all time greats imo. We also have to remember bob Arum's role in all this. I'm sure Bob has had to grease a lot of pockets along the way, dude has thrown around a lot of money to blow Manny up this big.


And with Marquez, the largest televised audience he fought in front of watched him get dominated by Floyd Mayweather, a fight he was supposed to lose. A lot of them have never seen him fight Pacquiao or any number of the great fights and wins he's had.
I think Pacquiao has earned the respect he's getting just like Mayweather has and just like Roy Jones did. I don't think any of those three guys are overrated. Pac's dominance cannot be denied and he takes guys out in style just like Hamed used to say. Mayweather used to do this but has really slowed down over the years as far as activity. If anything about Mayweather is overrated, I'd say it's his defense but not his status or accomplishments. Roy Jones Jr just dealt with what he had in front of him and there was a time when you could look at guys in the top five at 160, 168, 175, and 190 and find at least two or three fighters in each division that were destroyed by Roy Jones. As far as overrated, I've always felt Oscar de la Hoya was the most overhyped and overrated of all time.


:wepraise::wepraise::wepraise:
 

Spectrum

Elite Poster
BGOL Investor
Until Mayweather and Pac fight each other... they'll never will be respected as apart the greatests by true heads, because they are the best opponents in their division.

Yep. Ive definitely moved both significantly down my list over this bullshit. Best opponent for each other, historical money there for the fight = :smh::smh: @ a fight not getting done..Im not sure who to blame so fuck them both at this point.
 

Alaskanredman

Star
Registered
I definitely see your points concerning common opponents but my point is, and I guess I truly like dominant guys, is the way Manny fights and wins. All time status is really subjective and honestly you can not only look at the weakness of an era but home the top guys are beating their contemporaries which manny has done more dominantly than a lot of the all time greats which is why I think some people mention him in those circles. Oscar may have been washed when manny fought him but he was definitely a declined fighter when floyd beat him as well. Floyd won a split decision and manny destroyed him! You can't glorify floyds split decision but discount mannys dominate performance, takinng oscars heart and making him quit! Do I see manny beating some of the all time guys rated ahead of him if they fought? Definitely, because of stylistic issues, the same way I see him losing to some. The same thing with. Floyd.

I see you point and history will see it the same way but all the nuance will be lost to the history books. Like De La doing that fuck shit with his weight. I also think the Marquez fights will lose nuance too.

Like I said until they fight each other neither of their legacies will be complete.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
I see you point and history will see it the same way but all the nuance will be lost to the history books. Like De La doing that fuck shit with his weight. I also think the Marquez fights will lose nuance too. Like I said until they fight each other neither of their legacies will be complete.

That's true. It's not often recalled that Hearns was beating Ray Leonard in their first fight and Leonard outlasted him, it's just said that Leonard beat Hearns.
 

tp2001

Star
Registered
Would I consider Manny Pacqiao a BETTER fighter than Juan Manuel Marquez, NOPE. Marquez is a master technician and right up there with Floyd and Hopkins as one of the best "thinking man's" fighters of this era. But how many people know Marquez as compared to Pacquiao? Surely the hardcore fans but outside of boxing itself? If other athletes or celebrities know his name it's either because he fought Manny twice or they themselves are among the hardcore boxing fans.

Right on point with this. I swear Marquez would've been FOTY in 2008 if they gave him the win over Pac...he could've also gotten the award in 2010...

My own issue is this: does Manny's status among the media and pop culture, and his god like status in his country trump his being very smartly matched against guys who were over the hill or coming off bad losses, or his winning some of his biggest fights at catchweights, or eventually, him never having fought Marquez a 3rd time or god forbid, never having fought Mayweather? My answer is no, popularity and image only get you so far.

That should never give him a pass, regardless if one was a casual fan or a hardcore junkie...It is clear that he is getting too much slack for the selection of fighters that he has faced over the past few years.

Remember, Mayweather Jr. quickly embraced his role as the villain. The bad guy you hate with a vengeance, whose big mouth you pray, wish and hope will finally meet a power-packed fist.

...and if he didn't do that, he may have never gotten the fights he did get after leaving Arum and bringing in the money that he does in those fights. Trust me, if more fans followed the boxing game more than 5 years, then they would know how good Floyd has been, and not easily diss him or cast him as the bad guy just because...

*side note* The original post talks about Manny being posed as the anti-Mayweather, but the way that he and his crew pick these fights, wouldn't he be like an anti-Mosley (the era when he was on top of the game)?
 

tp2001

Star
Registered
As far as overrated, I've always felt Oscar de la Hoya was the most overhyped and overrated of all time.

Overhyped, yes...overrated...don't know. But that's my opinion...

...Oscar lost to those I thought he would lose to except to Sweet Pea and we all know why that was...
 

Alaskanredman

Star
Registered
Overhyped, yes...overrated...don't know. But that's my opinion...

...Oscar lost to those I thought he would lose to except to Sweet Pea and we all know why that was...

I completely agreed. The funny thing is that the buzz only transferred a few times like it usually would when the top guy is beat. The other mother fuckers like Shane might as well have lost.
 

will_right

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Its very easy to discount a fighter as shot after a loss. Cotto had beaten shane at the time he fought manny and because of the way he lost oh.... he was shot. All fighters have had their share of struggles due to styles. Floyd struggled with agustus and castillo who went on to lose to less talented fighter?! Manny loses points because of his handpicking of opponents but to an extent this has always been the case. Floyds greatest gift is to dodge a challenge and then when the fighter loses he responds like he was a prophet and knew the fighter was garbage?! Roy jones to a point as well. Do I think Manny is overrated, no. Do I view him as an all time top 20 guy? No. His he the best fighter p4p now? IMO yes because he not only wins but he dominates! Does he beat Floyd I don't know but to call him overrated is stupid and to discount his wins but glorify floyds wins against common opponents is a truly biased opinion.
Well said..well said indeed.Well well now..there u have it folks..another person DARES and goes against the grain.If i had said such a thing i prolly would have been ridiculed?:hmm:
:popcorn:
 
Last edited:

will_right

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I really hope the fight between Mosley and Manny gets made this year..cuz all the waiting and bs tactics is/has gotten old. But on the REAL...IMO Shane Mosley in his prime beats BOTH of these two..:itsawrap:that being Manny and of course Floyd Mayweather.When Shane was a lightweight and super lightweight he was a BEAST! Oh the memories..the memories:yes:
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Well said..well said indeed.Well well now..there u have it folks..another person DARES and goes against the grain.If i had said such a thing i prolly would have been ridiculed?:hmm:
:popcorn:

Not ridiculed, just corrected, like he was.

I really hope the fight between Mosley and Manny gets made this year..cuz all the waiting and bs tactics is/has gotten old. But on the REAL...IMO Shane Mosley in his prime beats BOTH of these two..:itsawrap:that being Manny and of course Floyd Mayweather.When Shane was a lightweight and super lightweight he was a BEAST! Oh the memories..the memories:yes:

Manny? Most likely. But Floyd would still hold when he got caught and would still outbox Shane. The difference would have been a more competitive fight for more rounds.
 

will_right

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Not ridiculed, just corrected, like he was.



Manny? Most likely. But Floyd would still hold when he got caught and would still outbox Shane. The difference would have been a more competitive fight for more rounds.
Oh of course cuz Floyd is the GOAT:rolleyes:
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Oh of course cuz Floyd is the GOAT:rolleyes:

C'mon will, if I wanted to say that, I would say that. But Floyd offers a match up difficulty to a guy like Shane Mosley. There were plenty of other legendary welters that would overwhelm Mayweather because they would have a much better mix of offense and defense and the ability to adjust, such as Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns reach would have caused major problems. Shane Mosley is neither of those guys.
 

merce77

Star
Registered
C'mon will, if I wanted to say that, I would say that. But Floyd offers a match up difficulty to a guy like Shane Mosley. There were plenty of other legendary welters that would overwhelm Mayweather because they would have a much better mix of offense and defense and the ability to adjust, such as Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns reach would have caused major problems. Shane Mosley is neither of those guys.

The problem with that argument is that Shane devolved as he went up in weight but let's compare them at their optimum weights at 135. Shane takes him, he was even faster, and he actually boxed. Or do you not remember the boxing lesson he gave Oscar in their first match, he turned into a one hitter quitter type of slugger at welter and up. But when Shane was at 135 people were calling him the p4p and there was talk of him being possibly one of the greatest lightweights ever. By the time floyd fought him, Mosley was a shell. Just imagine had Floyd been in trouble in the 2nd round with the young Shane - you still think the same thing happens? No way in hell. Floyd would have been under constant fire from a guy who was just as fast if not faster and had a hair trigger when it came to firing shots. Floyd's never had to face that kind of adversity. He faced it in the fight with Mosley at 39 years old but let's keep that in the proper context. Totally different fight if they are both in their mid twenties and at 135. Shane was Roy Jonesesque in his prime.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
The problem with that argument is that Shane devolved as he went up in weight but let's compare them at their optimum weights at 135. Shane takes him, he was even faster, and he actually boxed. Or do you not remember the boxing lesson he gave Oscar in their first match, he turned into a one hitter quitter type of slugger at welter and up. But when Shane was at 135 people were calling him the p4p and there was talk of him being possibly one of the greatest lightweights ever. By the time floyd fought him, Mosley was a shell. Just imagine had Floyd been in trouble in the 2nd round with the young Shane - you still think the same thing happens? No way in hell. Floyd would have been under constant fire from a guy who was just as fast if not faster and had a hair trigger when it came to firing shots. Floyd's never had to face that kind of adversity. He faced it in the fight with Mosley at 39 years old but let's keep that in the proper context. Totally different fight if they are both in their mid twenties and at 135. Shane was Roy Jonesesque in his prime.


I disagree with your outcome but I agree with all that other stuff (I thought he was the p4p at that time too). He outboxed Oscar but his advantage over Oscar was more his superior speed and DLH has always been in trouble with faster guys and never much of a strategist, none of those weaknesses exist with a 135 Mayweather. A fight between them at 135, which Floyd wanted, would have been a much closer fight but I still would see Floyd winning a split decision.
I'm very biased towards great defense, whether it's Mayweather, Winky Wright, the 90s Knicks, or the Baltimore Ravens. Give me a fighter/team with great defense and decent to good offense and I'll put my money on them every time.
 

will_right

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
The problem with that argument is that Shane devolved as he went up in weight but let's compare them at their optimum weights at 135. Shane takes him, he was even faster, and he actually boxed. Or do you not remember the boxing lesson he gave Oscar in their first match, he turned into a one hitter quitter type of slugger at welter and up. But when Shane was at 135 people were calling him the p4p and there was talk of him being possibly one of the greatest lightweights ever. By the time floyd fought him, Mosley was a shell. Just imagine had Floyd been in trouble in the 2nd round with the young Shane - you still think the same thing happens? No way in hell. Floyd would have been under constant fire from a guy who was just as fast if not faster and had a hair trigger when it came to firing shots. Floyd's never had to face that kind of adversity. He faced it in the fight with Mosley at 39 years old but let's keep that in the proper context. Totally different fight if they are both in their mid twenties and at 135. Shane was Roy Jonesesque in his prime.
Ah BINGO!! this is exactly what i was trying to convey to Dave.Perhaps now that you have expressed the same in so many words he'll re-think his prior statements on said issue:rolleyes:
 

will_right

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I disagree with your outcome but I agree with all that other stuff (I thought he was the p4p at that time too). He outboxed Oscar but his advantage over Oscar was more his superior speed and DLH has always been in trouble with faster guys and never much of a strategist, none of those weaknesses exist with a 135 Mayweather. A fight between them at 135, which Floyd wanted, would have been a much closer fight but I still would see Floyd winning a split decision.
I'm very biased towards great defense, whether it's Mayweather, Winky Wright, the 90s Knicks, or the Baltimore Ravens. Give me a fighter/team with great defense and decent to good offense and I'll put my money on them every time.
Stop looking for a pigeon hole on a sly tip ok..stick to Boxing dave shall we?:lol:
 

merce77

Star
Registered
I disagree with your outcome but I agree with all that other stuff (I thought he was the p4p at that time too). He outboxed Oscar but his advantage over Oscar was more his superior speed and DLH has always been in trouble with faster guys and never much of a strategist, none of those weaknesses exist with a 135 Mayweather. A fight between them at 135, which Floyd wanted, would have been a much closer fight but I still would see Floyd winning a split decision.
I'm very biased towards great defense, whether it's Mayweather, Winky Wright, the 90s Knicks, or the Baltimore Ravens. Give me a fighter/team with great defense and decent to good offense and I'll put my money on them every time.

You must have lost a lot of money on the Knicks because the offense of the Bulls got them every time.:lol::lol::lol::dance: JORDAN!!!!
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Ah BINGO!! this is exactly what i was trying to convey to Dave.Perhaps now that you have expressed the same in so many words he'll re-think his prior statements on said issue:rolleyes:

William
You must be new over here. Me and merce disagree on shit, particularly Mayweather related, all the time.
You were not trying to convey no such thing. If you were, you would have.
You say things and don't even try to explain it using the slightest amount of logic or critical thinking. You base it on how you "feel".
I am trying to cut back on the sarcasm and condescension but you're making it really fucking difficult.

You must have lost a lot of money on the Knicks because the offense of the Bulls got them every time.:lol::lol::lol::dance: JORDAN!!!!


You know I did:lol: But the Bulls were a great defensive team too, plus Mike got extra fouls. That's hard to beat.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Stop looking for a pigeon hole on a sly tip ok..stick to Boxing dave shall we?:lol:


Unlike a few people that post over here, I'm able to identify and explain my biases in sports. I don't pretend they don't exist and then say blatantly bias shit for pages with little to no basis in facts.
 

TJervey

Support BGOL
Registered
One thing that does aggrevate the hell out of me is when people degrade the career status of a fighter based on their current state. Of course the lightweight shane was better than the current one. Doesn't so much mean it was his best weight but dude is damn near 40! I still have much more respect for the way manny beats the common opponents he has with floyd than the way floyd beat them. More dominant. Now if manny thoroughly kick shanes ass or stops him, I believe floyd would go into their fight with more to prove than him. Tell me this, what will be more remembered over time, floyds split decision over oscar or mannys dominants making him quit on his stool?
 

will_right

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
One thing that does aggrevate the hell out of me is when people degrade the career status of a fighter based on their current state. Of course the lightweight shane was better than the current one. Doesn't so much mean it was his best weight but dude is damn near 40! I still have much more respect for the way manny beats the common opponents he has with floyd than the way floyd beat them. More dominant. Now if manny thoroughly kick shanes ass or stops him, I believe floyd would go into their fight with more to prove than him. Tell me this, what will be more remembered over time, floyds split decision over oscar or mannys dominants making him quit on his stool?
C/S 100% i LOVE a dominant fighter..Manny IS that.Thats what always impress me about fighters like that.Why try go the distance whe you can go all out with an impressive win.IMO there are alot of fighters out there looking to kill the clock..they are satisfied with just a win no matter how they get it.Thats why i miss fighers like Sugar Ray Leonard..SURE he could out box the average fighter, But he was not only was GOOD he also had the Killer instink:yes: PacMan has that as well..if he can Blow you OUT thats what he sets out to do:yes:
 

will_right

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
William
You must be new over here. Me and merce disagree on shit, particularly Mayweather related, all the time.
You were not trying to convey no such thing. If you were, you would have.
You say things and don't even try to explain it using the slightest amount of logic or critical thinking. You base it on how you "feel".
I am trying to cut back on the sarcasm and condescension but you're making it really fucking difficult.




You know I did:lol: But the Bulls were a great defensive team too, plus Mike got extra fouls. That's hard to beat.
I am trying to cut back on the sarcasm and condescension but you're making it really fucking difficult.
:lol:
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
One thing that does aggrevate the hell out of me is when people degrade the career status of a fighter based on their current state. Of course the lightweight shane was better than the current one. Doesn't so much mean it was his best weight but dude is damn near 40! I still have much more respect for the way manny beats the common opponents he has with floyd than the way floyd beat them. More dominant. Now if manny thoroughly kick shanes ass or stops him, I believe floyd would go into their fight with more to prove than him. Tell me this, what will be more remembered over time, floyds split decision over oscar or mannys dominants making him quit on his stool?

That's still a horrible example. If Manny had beat a full sized DLH, it would be more true. That's like asking which was better: Manny's win over JMM where he got a knockdown or Floyd's domination where he also got a knockdown. That's not fair because Floyd was a full blown welter against JMM, who was fighting way above his fighting weight.
If you insist on making this argument, use the Hatton fights, where Hatton was at his best weight and got knocked out in 2 by Manny.
 
Top