Gametheory/Nzingha

[Decon Frost]

If Scotland votes "Yes" who in Africa is going to follow their lead.



-Northern Nigeria
-Zanzibar
-Cabinda
-English speaking part of Cameroon
-Muslim part of Mali
-Katanga region of DRC
-Oromiya
-Western Sahara
-Casamance region of Senegal
-Muslim part of CAR

 

[exiledking]

I like this thread and where it can go

 

[kefta]

Black people do not have the muscle. This Scotland and England referendum is a white people issue. If black people try to do the same, white people will determine the outcome.

Remember, context of racism/white supremacy!

 

[Decon Frost]

Scotland voted to stay.

 

[Nzinga]

If Scotland votes "Yes" who in Africa is going to follow their lead.



-Northern Nigeria
-Zanzibar
-Cabinda
-English speaking part of Cameroon
-Muslim part of Mali
-Katanga region of DRC
-Oromiya
-Western Sahara
-Casamance region of Senegal
-Muslim part of CAR

Those pussies in Scotland voted NO! 55% to 45%. Even Alex Salmond
conceded....

 

[Nzinga]

If Scotland votes "Yes" who in Africa is going to follow their lead.



-Northern Nigeria

As I understand it, Southern Nigeria wants Northern Nigeria to go.
Northern Nigeria does not want to go as it would be left with only
goats and desert. The northerners claim to be 60% of the population
which means that they cannot removed by electoral means.

Boko Haram who want to convert all of Nigeria muslim, something the
northern Nigerians do not see as necessarily wrong, even if they
do not always agree with the tactics of Boko..

-Zanzibar

The same Muslim-everyone dislocation point that is evident all
over Africa. Julius Nyerere's clever invoking of Swahili as the
national language did a lot to not only discourage tribalism, but
to placate the tendency of Zanzibaris to secede, since they
consider Swahili as their language....Also, there is an unspoken
agreement to alternate presidents between the mainland and
Zanzibar, and for agreeing to share power in this way, you have
to commend the Tanzanians

-Cabinda

Why is Angola holding on to Cabinda? The province is on
the other side Zaire and does not want to be part of Angola.
Angola has enough oil, and it needs to let Cabinda go.

Having said that, if Cabinda were allowed to secede, then
you would have to deal with the Ovimbundu of Jonas Savimbi
who waged a guerrilla war against the mulatto MPLA government
in Luanda. They say the government is not as mulatto as
before, but with 1 million maimed from (American supplied)
land mines, as a constant reminder of the war, it would not
take much for the Ovimbundu hinterland to agitate for secession
from a corrupt government that does not give a fuck about
them.

-English speaking part of Cameroon

This is a very sore issue that goes back
to the 1 World War, after which the Germany
colony of Cameroon was chopped between
England and France. These parts were later
mistakenly reintegrated, and we have a Cameroon
that is divided along that line. Western Cameroon
should have the right to hold a referendum.

-Muslim part of Mali

All of Mali is Muslim. The divide is along racial
lines as the Touaregs in the North want to take
1/3 of the country and make it their own. The
problem is that you have many Baambara and
Dogon who live up there as well, and if the
division were on such ethnic lines, what would
happen to them. The solution might be to right
size the area that would be given to the Touaregs.
Give them a small corner in the desert and let
the get the fuck on with their lives.

-Katanga region of DRC

This an extremely sore issue. You have people
here in Texas very much divided on this fault
line, and the problem is exacerbated by the
fact that Mobutu did nothing for the country, and
as such, there is little loyalty to it anywhere. The
mentality is that if the national government is so
useless, why care for it? Put faith in the more
accountable government and go from there. Of
all the places where secession would be the most
meaningful, and least damaging, Katanga (and
Eastern Congo) is the place...

-Oromiya

Ethiopia will split. The example of the Eritrean
secession always looms as an example to people
like the Oromos of what is possible with determination.
The Oromo claim to be the majority, and resent the
domination of the country by the Amahara. Ethiopia
would be too weak to survive a violent insurrection by
any ethnic group, especially since it no longer has the
Russian support it did during the war with Eritrea.

-Western Sahara

They need to go. Why is Morocco being allowed to keep
another African country as its colony?

-Casamance region of Senegal
-

It should be allowed to go. It could join Gambia where
the Mandinka are 40% of the country and make a majority
Mandinka country. It would also rationalise the border of
Senengal and remove that penis called Gambia that is
fucking it ....

-Muslim part of CAR

We (the rest of Africa) are going to have to go to war with Muslims;
it is that simple. Because if we give them a country, they will come
back demanding the rest of Africa. Their religion teaches them
to not rest until they conquer. It is a dangerous if not suicidal,
illusion to imagine a peaceful coexistence with these people.

 

[exiledking]

As I understand it, Southern Nigeria wants Northern Nigeria to go.

Northern Nigeria does not want to go as it would be left with only

goats and desert. The northerners claim to be 60% of the population

which means that they cannot removed by electoral means.



Boko Haram who want to convert all of Nigeria muslim, something the

northern Nigerians do not see as necessarily wrong, even if it

does not always agree with the tactics of Boko..







The same Muslim-everyone dislocation point that is evident all

over Africa. Julius Nyerere's clever invoking of Swahili as the

national language did a lot to not only discourage tribalism, but

to placate the tendency of Zanzibaris to secede, since they

consider Swahili as their language....Also, there is an unspoken

agreement to alternate presidents between the mainland and

Zanzibar, and for agreeing to share power in this way, you have

to commend the Tanzanians







Why is Angola holding on to Cabinda? The province is on

the other side Zaire and does not want to be part of Angola.

Angola has enough oil, and it needs to let Cabinda go.



Having said that, if Cabinda were allowed to secede, then

you would have to deal with Ovimbundu of Jonas Savimbi

who waged a guerilla war against the mulatto MPLA government

in Luanda. They say the government is not as mulatto as

before, but with 1 million maimed from (American) supplied

land mines, as a constant reminder of the war, it would not

take much for the Ovimbundu hinterland to agitate for secession

from a corrupt government that does not give a fuck about

them.









This is a very sore issue that goes back

to the 1 World War, after which the Germany

colony of Cameroon was chopped between

England and France. These parts were later

mistakenly reintegrated, and we have a cameroon

that is divided along that line. Eastern Cameroon

should have the right to hold a referundum.









All of Mali is Muslim. The divide is along racial

lines as the Touaregs in the North want to take

1/3 of the country and make it their own. The

problem is that you have many Baambara and

Dogon who live up there as well, and if the

division were on such ethnic lines, what would

happen to them. The solution might be to right

size the area that would be given to the Touaregs.

Give them a small corner in the desert and let

the get the fuck on with their lives.





This an extremely sore issue. You have people

here in Texas very much divided on this fault

line, and the problem is exacerbated by the

fact that Mobutu did nothing for the country, and

as such, there is little loyalty to it anywhere. The

mentality is that if the national government is so

useless, why care for it? Put faith in the more

accountable government and go from there. Of

all the places where secession would be the most

meaningful, and least damaging, Katanga (and

Eastern Congo) is the place...







Ethiopia will split. The example of the Eritrean

secession always looms as an example to people

like the Oromos of what is possible with determination.

The Oromo claim to be the majority, and resent the

domination of the country by the Amahara. Ethiopia

would be too weak to survive a violent insurrection by

any ethnic group, especially since it no longer has the

Russian support it did during the war with Eritrea.







They need to go. Why is Morocco being allowed to keep

another African country as its colony?







It should be allowed to go. It could join Gambia where

the Mandinka are 40% of the country and make a majority

Mandinka country. It would also rationalise the border of

Senengal and remove that penis called Gambia that is

fucking it ....







We (the rest of Africa) are going to have to go to war with Muslims;

it is that simple. Because if we give them a country, they will come

back demanding the rest of Africa. Their religion teaches them

to not rest until they conquer. It is a dangerousm if not suicidal,

illusion to imagine a peaceful coexistence with these people.

Dope breakdown Zinger. I got some research to do. Much Appreciated.

Gotta give you credit, you're a true pan African

 

[exiledking]

Black people do not have the muscle. This Scotland and England referendum is a white people issue. If black people try to do the same, white people will determine the outcome.

Remember, context of racism/white supremacy!

Southern Sudan split from northern Sudan

Somaliland although not recognized has maintained a level of sovereignty for decades and continues to push for recognition.

I think there are a few more examples, and not everything depends on the white man. Change happens from the ground up, not the other way around.

Stop being so scary bruh.

 

[kefta]

Southern Sudan split from northern Sudan

Somaliland although not recognized has maintained a level of sovereignty for decades and continues to push for recognition.

I think there are a few more examples, and not everything depends on the white man. Change happens from the ground up, not the other way around.

Stop being so scary bruh.

Trust me. Its all being approved by white folks. Think about the creation of the UN. Not being a member state meant that you are vulnerable!

 

[exiledking]

Trust me. Its all being approved by white folks. Think about the creation of the UN. Not being a member state meant that you are vulnerable!

So are you sayin you base every move Africans are supposed to make based on what white people will approve?

They asked what Africans would do, not what white people will do.m


The two examples I mentioned didn't come about from anyone waiting on European permisision.

 

[Nzinga]

The issue of Somalia and Somali land is becoming one that is very
bitterly contested. You would never know how deeply the issue
divides unless you consorted with Somalis. Here in DFW, just near
the south entrance of DFW airport, there is a Somali hole in the wall
restaurant that started by a Somali woman. Her best friend is from
Somaliland, and decided to stab her in the front, by opening another
Somali restaurant right in the next hole on in that same strip. The
doors are about 10 yards apart, and the Somaliland woman is fond
of standing in the doorway verbally wooing away customers from
the Somali restaurant. I am told that the menu is identical, and the
prices are also the same. The only thing the second restaurant has
succeeded in doing is exposing the Somalia-Somaliland division here
in Dallas. The people from either region no longer fraternise the
restaurant owned by the woman from the other region. It is unfucking
believable. On top of this, Somalia as a whole, has a grievance with
Ethopia, with which it fought a 1977 war over the Ogaden region
currently a part of Ethiopia, but claimed by Somalia

 

[Nzinga]

what we need in Africa is not sovereignty of 200 different countries,
that would result were all grievances in all 54 countries allowed to
come to a vote. What we need is federalism based on strong autonomous
territories. That way we could benefit from unity, maintain our different
identities, and push our interests accordingly...

 

[exiledking]

The issue of Somalia and Somali land is becoming one that is very
bitterly contested. You would never know how deeply the issue
divides unless you consorted with Somalis. Here in DFW, just near
the south entrance of DFW airport, there is a Somali hole in the wall
restaurant that started by a Somali woman. Her best friend is from
Somaliland, and decided to stab her in the front, by opening another
Somali restaurant right in the next hole on in that same strip. The
doors are about 10 yards apart, and the Somaliland woman is fond
of standing in the doorway verbally wooing away customers from
the Somali restaurant. I am told that the menu is identical, and the
prices are also the same. The only thing the second restaurant has
succeeded in doing is exposing the Somalia-Somaliland division here
in Dallas. The people from either region no longer fraternise the
restaurant owned by the woman from the other region. It is unfucking
believable. On top of this, Somalia as a whole, has a grievance with
Ethopia, with which it fought a 1977 war over the Ogaden region
currently a part of Ethiopia, but claimed by Somalia

I have seen a few examples and spoken to a few. Most of the ones I know would just as well it remain one country, and they are originally from somaliland.

I just ask and observe. I've read a few of the reasons. I can see the reasoning behind somaliland and even Djibouti as French Somali or whatever. I just find it interesting and a lot of these things expose the true maps that still exist despite the job done on em in the scramble.

what we need in Africa is not sovereignty of 200 different countries,
that would result were all grievances in all 54 countries allowed to
come to a vote. What we need is federalism based on strong autonomous
territories. That we could benefit from unity, maintain our different
identities, and push our interests accordingly...

I can see that. It takes an understanding of history and a positive eye toward the future. Evolution is what it is. Time doesn't go backwards. Power must be regained somehow, someway.

 

[WorldEX]

Dope breakdown Zinger. I got some research to do. Much Appreciated.

Gotta give you credit, you're a true pan African

 

[Nzinga]

I am surprised Deacon did not broach the question of Biafra.
This has been the number 1 secession story in Africa, and
in 1967, it led to the war that killed at least 1 million, and left
a huge scar Nigeria is yet to heal from ...

Deacon, enlighten us on this one from Naija..

 

[Nzinga]

In Zimbabwe, the Ndebele, who speak an old form of
Zulu, derived from the Zulu empire, when with their
King Umzilikhazi, fled north to escape the Zulu war of
consolidation that followed the assassination of Shaka.
They settled in Zimbabwe, and by their superior military
ability, the loaded in over the Shona for more than 50
years. This was put to a halt when cacs came into the
country and conquered the Ndebele, and then crushed
several uprisings by both the Shona and the Ndebele
and then took away everything. In 1980, 90 years
after cacs had taken over, Robert Mugabe became
prime minister of the country. By 1985, the old resentment
towards the Ndebele had returned, and Mugabe unleashed
the 5th brigade on Matebele land (the Ndebele are also
called the Matebele), and massacred an alleged 5000
people. The Ndebele have never forgotten nor forgiven,
and on occasion, they agitate for their own country
within Zimbabwe.

 

[Nzinga]

Another group which fled the Zulu Difecane or Mfecane, is
the Kololo. It left South Africa at about the same time
as the Ndebele. It took a more westerly route than the
Ndebele. That route took it through Botswana, where it
imposed its language, Sikololo, which has now morphed
into a language called SiTswana, whence the name
BuTswana is derived. The word BuTswana means place of the
Tswana or being a Tswana person. The Kololo continued
right through Botswana and crossed the Zambezi river.
They ended up in Zambia and conquered the Aluyi,
who like most Zambians, had migrated from the congo Luba
Lunda Empire a few hundred years before. The Kolo
imposed their language on the Aluyi, as they had done
on the inhabitants of the BoTswana. The Kololo oppression
of the Aluyi was to last 25 years, and is historically referred
to as the Kololo Interregnum. In 1864, the Aluyi men arose
from the marshes where they had sought shelter 4 years
ago, under a man called Sipopa. They attacked the Kololo
and killed the men. They kept and married the Kololo women
and in doing this doomed the Aluyi language called Siluyana,
Women transmit language, and Kololo women transmitted
their Kololo language, Sikololo, rather than the indigenous
Siluyana, to successive Aluyi generations. Nowadays, only
a few of the Aluyi nobility even speak Siluyana, and the
other people, who are now called Ba Lozi (speak Si Lozi)
which derives from Kololo is nearly mutually intelligible
with SiTswana in Botswana, and SiSuthu in LiSuthu (Lesotho)
... This is the language you sometimes see me and
Nyeleman conversing in on BGOL...

Anyway deriving from this, when the English wanted to
make Zambia first a protectorate, and then a colony, the
King of the Lozi signed away all the mineral rights of the
entire country to them, even though his own people
occupies a small sliver of the country, and the mineral and
lands he signed away were of people he did not even know
existed. In return, this king received royalties from the English
and even an honorary commission in the Englih Navy as an
admiral. To this day, at the culmination of the of the Kuomboka
Ceremony, tevery Lozi king appears out his badge, the Nalikwanda,
wearing the uniform of an 18th century English navy admiral.

At Independence in 1964, Kenneth Kaunda, the prime minister of Zambia
went behind this fellow and ended the royalty agreement. This and the
fact the successive Zambian governments have neglected to develop
the western half of the country, has left these people agitating for secession

 

[Decon Frost]

I am surprised Deacon did not broach the question of Biafra.
This has been the number 1 secession story in Africa, and
in 1967, it led to the war that killed at least 1 million, and left
a huge scar Nigeria is yet to heal from ...

Deacon, enlighten us on this one from Naija..

I spent all on July in Nigeria (Ibandan and Lagos) Igbos a'int going anywhere. Southern Nigeria wants to rid itself of Northern Nigeria, but that would only lead to Northern Nigeria, Niger, Chad and Mali creating an African Afghanistan.

 

[Decon Frost]

In Zimbabwe, the Ndebele, who speak an old form of
Zulu, derived from the Zulu empire, when with their
King Umzilikhazi, fled north to escape the Zulu war of
consolidation that followed the assassination of Shaka.
They settled in Zimbabwe, and by their superior military
ability, the loaded in over the Shona for more than 50
years. This was put to a halt when cacs came into the
country and conquered the Ndebele, and then crushed
several uprisings by both the Shona and the Ndebele
and then took away everything. In 1980, 90 years
after cacs had taken over, Robert Mugabe became
prime minister of the country. By 1985, the old resentment
towards the Ndebele had returned, and Mugabe unleashed
the 5th brigade on Matebele land (the Ndebele are also
called the Matebele), and massacred an alleged 5000
people. The Ndebele have never forgotten nor forgiven,
and on occasion, they agitate for their own country
within Zimbabwe.

and the UK government knighted him for that.

 

[Nzinga]

and the UK government knighted him for that.

And it tells you about the credibility of these people. When he was letting them
keep the stolen land, he was the greatest leader in Africa

 

[GAMETHEORY]

In this case I wish to remain the reader unless necessary since Nzinga has broke down everything perfectly fine.

My intervention at this stage would dilute the thread and I think we can both learn from the knowledge this brother has dropped us here.

 

[exiledking]

In this case I wish to remain the reader unless necessary since Nzinga has broke down everything perfectly fine.

My intervention at this stage would dilute the thread and I think we can both learn from the knowledge this brother has dropped us here.

I'm lovin this thread. Feel free though.drop a few angles. I have a few questions once I get home.

 

[exiledking]

Upppppp

 

[exiledking]

We (the rest of Africa) are going to have to go to war with Muslims;
it is that simple. Because if we give them a country, they will come
back demanding the rest of Africa. Their religion teaches them
to not rest until they conquer. It is a dangerous if not suicidal,
illusion to imagine a peaceful coexistence with these people.

You said some shit here bruh. Felt this needed emphasis. VERY interesting point.

 

[exiledking]

nice article and graph that reinforces Nzingas points


http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2012/sep/06/africa-map-separatist-movements-interactive

 

[GAMETHEORY]

Zanzibar commemorated its revolution day last week. Yes it still has some issues with the current Union format with mainland but hopefully the new constitution will iron out all the issues and there is a possibility of having 3 govts mainly, Union, Zanzibar and Tanganyika instead of current 2 (Tanzania and Zanzibar)

Its worth pointing out that Tanzania is the ONLY country in Africa which formed after the union of two countries....Tanganyika and Zanzibar Islands (Unguja & Pemba)

and the CIA were on record stating their displeasure for the Union almost 50 years ago.

 

[Decon Frost]

Zanzibar commemorated its revolution day last week. Yes it still has some issues with the current Union format with mainland but hopefully the new constitution will iron out all the issues and there is a possibility of having 3 govts mainly, Union, Zanzibar and Tanganyika instead of current 2 (Tanzania and Zanzibar)

Its worth pointing out that Tanzania is the ONLY country in Africa which formed after the union of two countries....Tanganyika and Zanzibar Islands (Unguja & Pemba)

and the CIA were on record stating their displeasure for the Union almost 50 years ago.

I was in Zanzibar 2 1/2 yrs ago. They aint going anywhere. They can't survive by themselves not enough tourism dollars for the whole 1m plus peoples and Tanganyika don't really want them either. Its sort of like it Hawaii decides to become their own country and only problem the rest of America would have is getting a passport/visa to go their on vacation.

 

[GAMETHEORY]

I was in Zanzibar 2 1/2 yrs ago. They aint going anywhere. They can't survive by themselves not enough tourism dollars for the whole 1m plus peoples and Tanganyika don't really want them either. Its sort of like it Hawaii decides to become their own country and only problem the rest of America would have is getting a passport/visa to go their on vacation.

Part of my family is from Unguja (the main island). its true Zanzibar cannot survive without thr assistance from the mainland Govt. Also Zanzibaris never got through the Slave mentality syndome. Also the unuon Govt has not dome enough thats why in the wake of Scottish referendum Zanzibaris were pushing for devolution Max (they would control everything except Defence and Foreign Affairs). Obviously the current political class aee bent on statusquo.

Assuming Zanzibar does succeed, there's a possibility the smaller Island of Pemba might want to part way from Unguja.

History has not been kind to Zanzibar and the (post karume Snr) politicians are just Tanganyika puppets. Who knows with the current hydrocarbons (oil and gas) Zanzibaris might smell the coffee and say to hell with Muungano!

 

[Nzinga]

nice article and graph that reinforces Nzingas points


http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2012/sep/06/africa-map-separatist-movements-interactive

That is just a fraction of it... DRC alone, would split into at least 7 countries;
Katanga would go; the 2 Kasais would go, the East would the South West
would go, and the North would split into 2.

Zambia its own issues, and if that Barotseland bullshit came to pass, the
South, the Central and the Northwest would also independently secede.

In Botswana there is rancour between the bigger and darker people who
live in the north of the country, and the Khoisan majority.

The Zulu would take a part of South Africa and go etc etc...

 

[Nzinga]

and the UK government knighted him for that.

And in the Zambian elections that occur in 3 days, Mugabe attempted
to impart his methods to the ruling party..

 

[GAMETHEORY]

That is just a fraction of it... DRC alone, would split into at least 7 countries;
Katanga would go; the 2 Kasais would go, the East would the South West
would go, and the North would split into 2.

Zambia its own issues, and if that Barotseland bullshit came to pass, the
South, the Central and the Northwest would also independently secede.

In Botswana there is rancour between the bigger and darker people who
live in the north of the country, and the Khoisan majority.

The Zulu would take a part of South Africa and go etc etc...

They're preparing the stage for the Jewish boy to take over congo...the current Governor of Katanga, Moisse Katubi

 

[Decon Frost]

I didn't know Kabila only speaks Swahili. How did he get elected?

 

[GAMETHEORY]

I didn't know Kabila only speaks Swahili. How did he get elected?

hehehe

His Dad, Joseph was living in Tanzania for almost 30 Years and I even know the building in Dar he used to live. If you've been to Dar there's an area called Upanga and to be specific they used to live in this flat not far from Muhimbili Hospital. Basically Tanzania back them was the Mecca for all the liberation movement folks so Tanzania's intelligence service (during Nyerere's era) provided safe heaven to all those fighting for the liberation of African countries by that I mean almost entire echelon of ANC including Mandela were hosted and trained (Umkontho we sizwe were given training cams in Morogoro) while others lived in Dar. Museveni of Uganda, John Garang, etc.

Coming back to Kabila we used to think he was the intelligence guy and he was popularliy known as baba desi....he was Mswahili through and through

Mind you Nyerere hated Mobutu to the core so it was inevitable he gives the Kabila and his crew all support they wanted. Now the current Kabila was born and raised in Dar and he went to secondary school not far from their flat in Upanga called AZANIA SECONDARY SCHOOL its a govt school.Basically he was born and raised up in Tanzania therefore its no surprise that he doesnt even speak proper lingala.

In otherwords waswahili tunasema huyo kabila ni mwanetu kabisaaaa tumemlea wenyeweeee heheheheh

 

[Decon Frost]

hehehe

His Dad, Joseph was living in Tanzania for almost 30 Years and I even know the building in Dar he used to live. If you've been to Dar there's an area called Upanga and to be specific they used to live in this flat not far from Muhimbili Hospital. Basically Tanzania back them was the Mecca for all the liberation movement folks so Tanzania's intelligence service (during Nyerere's era) provided safe heaven to all those fighting for the liberation of African countries by that I mean almost entire echelon of ANC including Mandela were hosted and trained (Umkontho we sizwe were given training cams in Morogoro) while others lived in Dar. Museveni of Uganda, John Garang, etc.

Coming back to Kabila we used to think he was the intelligence guy and he was popularliy known as baba desi....he was Mswahili through and through

Mind you Nyerere hated Mobutu to the core so it was inevitable he gives the Kabila and his crew all support they wanted. Now the current Kabila was born and raised in Dar and he went to secondary school not far from their flat in Upanga called AZANIA SECONDARY SCHOOL its a govt school.Basically he was born and raised up in Tanzania therefore its no surprise that he doesnt even speak proper lingala.

In otherwords waswahili tunasema huyo kabila ni mwanetu kabisaaaa tumemlea wenyeweeee heheheheh

I'm looking at a map of the last election and its ironic he won all the states that he has no control over (Katanga, Kivus)

 

[MrSid]

5000 is an understatement for the Gukurahundu which occurred in matabeleland, numbers are more in their >20k.

I miss my home. matabeleland.