Divine Intelligence: God the Evidence (for those that require it)

RBGrider

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Quantitative Reasoning or things that can be expressed or reasoned about mathematically or quantitatively is a type of intelligence. If we could look at phenomenon and identify mathematical patterns that could be discussed or understood through quantitative reasoning this would be objective evidence of the Intelligence of the Force we call God. Lets go to Chemistry. Examination of the structure of the known elements that make up the universe reveal a mathematical progression or pattern in the formation of electrons.

The first shell of an atom can hold a maximum of 2 electrons, the second shell 8, the third 18 and the fourth 32. This gives us the following mathematical progression: 2(1)2 2(2)2 2(3)2 2(4)2

This arrangement of electrons is the same pattern of the elements when they are arranged on the periodic table. In the first row of the periodic table there are 2 elements Hydrogen and Helium, in rows 2 & 3 we find there are 8 elements in each row, in rows 4 and 5 we find 18 elements in each, in row 6 we find 32 elements and in row 7 we find 23 elements. The last row does not break the pattern, it contains elements that are so unstable that the limit of integration has been reached before reaching the 32nd possible element.

Some how scientist have missed the fact that following the so called Big Bang the creation of elements proceeded according to strict mathematical rules. All elements are made up of the same components, just configured differently. The progression from one element to the next follows a strict mathematical pattern, in which the underlying properties of each element are repeated in the element 8 places away.

What we have here is the fact that long before a living thing could have come into being to create intelligence, there is something acting in a very intelligent way, in the creation of the atom and the elements. One thing is for a pattern to occur as an organizing force inside the atom. Seeing it acting again as an organizing force outside the atom reinforces the idea of an organizing intelligent presence at work. Following the Big Bang is not a simple cooling down process from which the various atoms are created, or however else scientist may discover the creation takes place. What is a fact, however the process occurs, is that there is a numerical basis to it. There is evidence of intelligence behind it. This I think is evidence for us to believe or at least ponder about the presence of this bodiless intelligence and force. We perceive God's presence through its Intelligence. It is the intelligence behind all of the laws of nature, which can be understood through qualitative logic or quantitative logic (mathematics).

Quantitative Reasoning
No doubt most students are familiar with the Scientific Method and how it has revolutionized the way we look at the world. Partly, mathematics is what makes the Scientific Method work. By virtue of its objectivity and abstractness, mathematics provides the magnificent language to express scientific laws and principles.

Galileo Galilei (1564 – 1642), one of the prime movers of the Scientific Method, said: “[The universe] cannot be read until we have learnt the language and become familiar with the characters in which it is written. It is written in mathematical language, and the letters are triangles, circles and other geometrical figures, without which means it is humanly impossible to comprehend a single word.”

That mathematics plays an important role in understanding the world was recognized much earlier than the Renaissance. Two millennia before Galileo, Pythagoras (c. 570 – 500 BCE) believed that, at its deepest level, reality is mathematical. In fact, in the Greek philosophical tradition, mathematics plays such an indispensable role that Plato (427 – 347 BCE) put the sign “Let no one unversed in geometry enter here” above the entrance to his famous Academy.

Indeed, mathematics is used not only in science, but in all areas of knowledge. A quick look at the newspapers would readily convince anyone that a lot of information is given quantitatively, and hence rigorous quantitative reasoning is crucial in the critical evaluation of information.
The Quantitative Reasoning area of the University Scholars Programme highlights how mathematical and quantitative reasoning play an important role in intellectual pursuits as well as everyday living. It not only offers modules that examine the nature and methodologies of mathematics, and how simple mathematical principles and models can help us understand the complex world, but also those that look at how mathematical and statistical thinking can help us make cogent arguments and logical decisions in everyday practical situations.
The idea that living things came into being as the result of a chance combination of molecules derived its strength from the belief that what distinguished living matter from inanimate matter was the "irritability"(responsiveness to the environment) of the former-This "irratability" translated somehow into the ability to adapt to the environment, through feeding, growth, mobility, reproduction, and the host of metabolic functions that are characterisitc of living things.

The idea that the foundation of life was in the "irritability" of living matter (protoplasm) could have been excused until 1953 when JD Watson and FH Crick, two scientist at Cambridge University discovered that the phenomena that characterizes the expression of living things is based on four proteins; adenine, designated in molecular biology as A, thymine, T, guanine, G and cytosine, C. These four chemicals which account for all structural and functional phenonmena in living things accomplish their goal through a strict and complex mathematical process. All four are arranged three at a time as a double-stranded helix in different ways to form another molecule - DNA, which is the fundamental unit underlying genes. Their arrangement yields 64 combinations out of which the vast diversity o living forms in nature is produced. The conclusion is that INFORMATION, DESIGN, PATTERN, MATHEMATICAL THINKING and not "irritability are at the foundation of the creation of living matter. Not a single living form could come into being without this complex, very complex mathematical design at its foundation. We must conclude, then that it is INTELLIGENCE that created living things, and not the other way around. And this intelligence does not have a body! What? Who is it? What is the extent of this intelligence? Do not scientist have proof of its omniscience? What scientist have learned from nature to what is there to be known is like a grain of sand to the universe.

Where things occur, that is, actions take place there must be energy at work. In the process of the creation of the world and of living things, it is clear that intelligence is guiding the energy that is responsible for carrying out the work. This bodiless power is the Spirit of God. With this in mind, it would be foolish to ignore the fact that behind the intelligence and energy at work there must be a bodiless consciousness with a bodiless will with a purpose. The evidence for its existence is logically deductible from mathematics. Do you see, hear, feel, taste or smell God? Has anyone experienced gravity as a force of attraction between themselves and any other body? Yet the law of gravitation says that any two masses in the universe attract each other with a force (F) that is quantifiable (mathematically expressed) in the following formula:

F= GmM
______

r2

Where F is the force, m is the mass of some object, M is the mass of the earth, r is the distance from the center of the earth to the object, and G is a constant under all conditions. I am giving this example to bring home the point that we cannot understand gravity without what is evidenced from mathematics for the fact that the operative factors are beyond the grasp of the senses. The scientist ability to understand the force of gravitation in order to project missles into outer space and so on was not derived from the sense experience of weight, which is the common experience of gravity. In fact, we don't experience weight as the operation of an attractive force. The same applies to the knowledge of the existence of God as evidenced by mathematics. It allows us to acquire knowledge of the existence of all quantifiable events that cannot be perceived through the senses.

The point is diven home by the understanding that we are able to think mathematically because we have been endowed with the capacity to do so by God. We could have been made dumb and totally insensible to such notions like asses and all other creatures. Were this so, the mathematical patterns underlying the creation of physical matter, and living things would still be there. It has totally escaped the understanding of western scientist that scientific thinking is the expression of the ability to recongnize the quantifiable side of the world. Quantitative reasoning, the backbone of science, is nothing more than man's thinking following the manner in which processes occur in the world. If nature was not built on quantifiable patterns, then quantitative reasoning about natural events would totally useless, and foolish. Man does not create or invent science. Scientist do not invent, they discover the science (information) stored in nature - an embodiment of God's designing intelligence.

I must end by saying it is distorted thinking which vexes minds with regard to science and the Divine. There is no contradiction here. The author of this distorted thinking is of course Europeans who through the predominance of the left brain are cornered into believing that they must either consciously or unconsciously reject either religion or science in order to accept either. This is not the way of the African or indeed many other non-white cultures.

ONE
 
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I think you need one of these, you and your "space god":lol: :roflmao:

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:lol:

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I think you need one of these, you and your "space god":lol: :roflmao:

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This is not a response.:smh: If you want to try to debate that quantitative logic is not intelligence then I await your response. What you have responded is incomprehensible nonsense which suggests you are incapable of even attempting a rebuttal and that's okay just be honest enough to say you can't muster a response rather then the sophomoric nonsense you posted.
 
This is not a response.:smh: If you want to try to debate that quantitative logic is not intelligence then I await your response. What you have responded is incomprehensible nonsense which suggests you are incapable of even attempting a rebuttal and that's okay just be honest enough to say you can't muster a response rather then the sophomoric nonsense you posted.

Cmon dog...you were dead 2 sentences into this thread...

Quantitative Reasoning or things that can be expressed or reasoned about mathematically or quantitatively is a type of intelligence. If we could look at phenomenon and identify mathematical patterns that could be discussed or understood through quantitative reasoning this would be objective evidence of the Intelligence of the Force we call God.

I'd start here.

200px-Structure-of-scientific-revolutions-3rd-ed-pb.jpg
 
Cmon dog...you were dead 2 sentences into this thread...



I'd start here.

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Not familiar with this book. If you've read it perhaps you could tell us how it refutes what I've said. No I was not "dead" two sentences into the thread. Unless you can refute what I said in those 2 sentences. Is Quantitative reasoning intelligence or not? I await your reply.
 
rgb rider....i have 2 bishops in my family, one of the oldest black churches in the country is my family church, direct lineage, great-great grandfather. I also have strict muslims in my family. I have had theological discussions with bishops, and muslims at the same time. I can lay my hands on a copy of not only the bible, but the torah, and a qu'aran, right now. So I have had these discussions with those who are WAY MORE QUALIFIED THAN YOU ARE. YOU SOUND DUMB. Your "carefully worded bullshit", using science to prove god......is both asinine, fruitless, and pointless. Like most "religious" people....you spend your time worrying about what the fuck another person is thinking. Stay in your own mind....god doesnt need YOU to defend him. Who the fuck do you think you are? You really GOD came down and broke his master plan down to puny humans? You think an omnipotent being needs YOU, RGBRIDER, to defend him and his plans? You arrogant mortals, you make me laugh.:lol:
 
rgb rider....i have 2 bishops in my family, one of the oldest black churches in the country is my family church, direct lineage, great-great grandfather. I also have strict muslims in my family. I have had theological discussions with bishops, and muslims at the same time. I can lay my hands on a copy of not only the bible, but the torah, and a qu'aran, right now. So I have had these discussions with those who are WAY MORE QUALIFIED THAN YOU ARE. YOU SOUND DUMB. Your "carefully worded bullshit", using science to prove god......is both asinine, fruitless, and pointless. Like most "religious" people....you spend your time worrying about what the fuck another person is thinking. Stay in your own mind....god doesnt need YOU to defend him. Who the fuck do you think you are? You really GOD came down and broke his master plan down to puny humans? You think an omnipotent being needs YOU, RGBRIDER, to defend him and his plans? You arrogant mortals, you make me laugh.:lol:

So the Muslims didn't tell you that in ISLAM Striving to attain Knowledge in the form of studying Science etc. is the best Form of Worship??.......YOU SOUND STUPID!!!:lol: "Theological" discussions huh??:smh:
 
And my first response was not nonsense. it was perfect. See the guy...that supposed to be you......using all types of big words and complicated phrases to try to prove your point. youre a bullshit artist......a "philosopher" i was a phil minor, poli major...i understand. What you are seing is called "regularity" now in this 12, billion year old universo or so....god only knows, there are sure to be periods of what looks like "regularity"...but is really just random pattern looked at with bookends on. llok at the whole pattern, and it falls back into nonsense. Try to grasp te entire universe. Imagine 10 milion light years. 10 million years, of traveling at light speed, and still not making too much progress in terms of crossing the universe. thats like leaving your state. you still have the world and other planets to go. If there is an "intelligence" that created all of this, for the specific purpose of making people believe in him...or even if he cares that we do....then hes worse than geroge bush!:lol:
 
rgb rider....i have 2 bishops in my family, one of the oldest black churches in the country is my family church, direct lineage, great-great grandfather. I also have strict muslims in my family. I have had theological discussions with bishops, and muslims at the same time. I can lay my hands on a copy of not only the bible, but the torah, and a qu'aran, right now. So I have had these discussions with those who are WAY MORE QUALIFIED THAN YOU ARE. YOU SOUND DUMB. Your "carefully worded bullshit", using science to prove god......is both asinine, fruitless, and pointless. Like most "religious" people....you spend your time worrying about what the fuck another person is thinking. Stay in your own mind....god doesnt need YOU to defend him. Who the fuck do you think you are? You really GOD came down and broke his master plan down to puny humans? You think an omnipotent being needs YOU, RGBRIDER, to defend him and his plans? You arrogant mortals, you make me laugh.:lol:

I am not a Christian or a Muslim or a follower of Judaism. What I know is that the degree to which God exists in this world is the exact measure of the extent to which God lives within and through each of us. Western man has undertaken an assault on the very notion of a Divine Intelligence and has done so since the advent of Greeks. You may examine the world for a inkling of what the result of the removal of God has been. Sadly too many who follow the 3 "worldly" religions believe that they can sit in church on Sunday and praise God while living and behaving like animals the other six days of the week. :smh:

The problem is the three worldly religions are religions of belief. To believe something is to NOT KNOW. I do not believe in God I KNOW GOD. For the African knowledge of God required the placement of God not only in their lives but in all aspects of their culture and society. I do not need chemistry or theoretical physics to know God but some of you do - largely because you have been trained to think and live like white men. Since God is KNOWABLE then it is no enormous task to present in a way that is objective - which is what I have done.

No I assure you I am not dumb.

Funny I assume you are a Christian with your background - yet you speak of Gods creation Man and Woman with contempt "mortals", doesn't your Bible tell you that "God made man in His own image" - ?? What does this mean to you? That God looks like a man or God forbid a woman?? Come on bruh! Know who you are?
 

Ain't NO WAY IN HELL you read that!!!!
:rolleyes:

Word? I read that shit in college.

My intro to phil professor gave it to me to read after a week of back-and-forth's over my (naive) insistence that subjectivity in observation could be avoided by rigorous self-discipline. Kuhn has come in handy in law school, applied to paradigm shifts in theories of tort/contract & con law.

Kuhn is tough, but damn... you sound pussified.
 
So the Muslims didn't tell you that in ISLAM Striving to attain Knowledge in the form of studying Science etc. is the best Form of Worship??.......YOU SOUND STUPID!!!:lol: "Theological" discussions huh??:smh:

yea they did......but COMING FROM YOUR MOUTH......it sounds really dumb. maybe you should read that book homie posted, cause even Ive heard of that book in relation to this TIRESOME topic, being as how you havent even seen the book structure of scientific revoloutions, or seen the documentary that talks about this book, along with some more arguments from the "intelligent design camp" then you need to bone up. And really.....DO YOU THINK SOMEONE AS ENLIGHTENED AS MYSELF WOULD LISTEN TO EITHER MUSLIMS OR CHRISTIANS, AS BOTH WERE DOING THEIR BEST TO RECRUIT ME? Get the fuck outta here....religion is responsible for the worst things in history..i stay far from it. My purpose in life is to evolve/spread my seed and provide for it; try to leave a better world than i came into. ANYTHING ELSE....IS KINDA SECONDARY. Maye if niggas lke you, nd the roman catholic church, and the fundamental muslims and shit would all shut the fuck up and realize that....there wouldnt be so much genocide and shit. But you keep waiting for your "space god" to tell you what to do.:hmm:
 
I am not a Christian or a Muslim or a follower of Judaism. What I know is that the degree to which God exists in this world is the exact measure of the extent to which God lives within and through each of us. Western man has undertaken an assault on the very notion of a Divine Intelligence and has done so since the advent of Greeks. You may examine the world for a inkling of what the result of the removal of God has been. Sadly too many who follow the 3 "worldly" religions believe that they can sit in church on Sunday and praise God while living and behaving like animals the other six days of the week. :smh:

The problem is the three worldly religions are religions of belief. To believe something is to NOT KNOW. I do not believe in God I KNOW GOD. For the African knowledge of God required the placement of God not only in their lives but in all aspects of their culture and society. I do not need chemistry or theoretical physics to know God but some of you do - largely because you have been trained to think and live like white men. Since God is KNOWABLE then it is no enormous task to present in a way that is objective - which is what I have done.

No I assure you I am not dumb.

Funny I assume you are a Christian with your background - yet you speak of Gods creation Man and Woman with contempt "mortals", doesn't your Bible tell you that "God made man in His own image" - ?? What does this mean to you? That God looks like a man or God forbid a woman?? Come on bruh! Know who you are?


Um......I am the furthest thing from a christian. In fact I am COMPLETELY AMORAL. "mortals" is just a term I use jokingly.
god made man in his own image.......:lol:yea im sure. to an alien, monkeys and men are pretty similar. aas far as this "knowing god" thats just another wack way to say "you" because "you" think "your" way have reached "enlightenment", or "heaven" or "nirvana" or "paradise" whether it be here on earth, in the spiritual realm, or in fantasy. I have known the way to "god" for over 10 years. i'm glad that YOU just got there and are exited....but ive known my purpose for a while. Glad to see you made it here......first rule of enlightenment......dont preach! everyman must find his own way. see how you are being rejected out of hand? I believe everything you said inthe first post....but im teaching you a lesson of "enlightenment" all of the people i have led to "nirvana" have been through discussion. "what is the prpose of life" when you get to the purpose...it all becomes clear to them. but you cant throw information at em. you have to ask questions and let THEM come up with the answers. When you come across in the preachy way......niggas feel like they are in church,and start falling asleep.
 
And my first response was not nonsense. it was perfect. See the guy...that supposed to be you......using all types of big words and complicated phrases to try to prove your point. youre a bullshit artist......a "philosopher" i was a phil minor, poli major...i understand. What you are seing is called "regularity" now in this 12, billion year old universo or so....god only knows, there are sure to be periods of what looks like "regularity"...but is really just random pattern looked at with bookends on. llok at the whole pattern, and it falls back into nonsense. Try to grasp te entire universe. Imagine 10 milion light years. 10 million years, of traveling at light speed, and still not making too much progress in terms of crossing the universe. thats like leaving your state. you still have the world and other planets to go. If there is an "intelligence" that created all of this, for the specific purpose of making people believe in him...or even if he cares that we do....then hes worse than geroge bush!:lol:

Yea so we get that your an atheist but is this all that you can muster as a response? ad hominem and personal slander? Weak. If can refute what has been said, which should be easy since I am no more then a "bullshit artist" then go for it.

I understand your frustration with Christianity and indeed how so much of religion has been used to create confusion and horror on this earth but you need to open your mind and see that Christianity and Islam are not the sum total of what religion and spirituality are in this world. There are systems that predate these by thousands of years perhaps you would benefit from looking beyond them and at your own history. Looking to another mans religion and culture will only lead to the bitterness and frustration that you seem stuck in here.

Hetep
 
I see myself as an intelligent man. I see myself as a God fearing man. BUT I don't see myself trying to convenience negroes on a fuckin PORN BOARD that I am an intelligent man that believes in God!
Dudes! Post some pussy and talk a lil shit! But leave your intelligence for the "real world", and leave your religious convictions for your Sunday morning service at your "real church". This here is about pussy, pussy, PUSSY!!! Nothing more, nothing less!
Can I get a CHUUUUUUUURRRRCCCCHHHHHH!!!!
 
Um......I am the furthest thing from a christian. In fact I am COMPLETELY AMORAL. "mortals" is just a term I use jokingly.
god made man in his own image.......:lol:yea im sure. to an alien, monkeys and men are pretty similar. aas far as this "knowing god" thats just another wack way to say "you" because "you" think "your" way have reached "enlightenment", or "heaven" or "nirvana" or "paradise" whether it be here on earth, in the spiritual realm, or in fantasy. I have known the way to "god" for over 10 years. i'm glad that YOU just got there and are exited....but ive known my purpose for a while. Glad to see you made it here......first rule of enlightenment......dont preach! everyman must find his own way. see how you are being rejected out of hand? I believe everything you said inthe first post....but im teaching you a lesson of "enlightenment" all of the people i have led to "nirvana" have been through discussion. "what is the prpose of life" when you get to the purpose...it all becomes clear to them. but you cant throw information at em. you have to ask questions and let THEM come up with the answers. When you come across in the preachy way......niggas feel like they are in church,and start falling asleep.

Missed this response before posting my last response. I agree as well that each person must find their path or remain lost on there own. It is not my intention here to preach or proselytize am I merely suggesting that it is possible to place God on firm footing and out of the context created by both atheistic science and Christians. In keeping with this some will hear and see and some will not.
 
sorry.......i have knee-jerk reaction to preaching.....soon as i see any type of "god" i kinda start rollin my eyes. But i see that we do agree on the same thing...in slightly different ways; no doubt tinted whatever shade our individual life experience have colored our glasses. peace be upon you.:D may you show many the road to the "promised land."
 
What does religion have to do with the existence of God?

Seems to me that the OP argued that there was a Force in place, that guides, shapes and forms all of the scientific rules that are known? Didn't argue how God looked, acted, or what religion was correct.

now in this 12, billion year old universo or so....god only knows, there are sure to be periods of what looks like "regularity"...but is really just random pattern looked at with bookends on. llok at the whole pattern, and it falls back into nonsense. Try to grasp te entire universe. Imagine 10 milion light years. 10 million years, of traveling at light speed, and still not making too much progress in terms of crossing the universe. thats like leaving your state.

That statement is flawed, there is an obvious order within the universe, and the entire universe doesn't have to be considered. Just the solar system, the way the planets orbit the sun. Hasn't changed. Ecosystem hasn't changed. Even gravity, hasn't changed. The rules that apply to stars and black holes all over the universe hasn't changed.
 
yea they did......but COMING FROM YOUR MOUTH......it sounds really dumb. maybe you should read that book homie posted, cause even Ive heard of that book in relation to this TIRESOME topic, being as how you havent even seen the book structure of scientific revoloutions, or seen the documentary that talks about this book, along with some more arguments from the "intelligent design camp" then you need to bone up. And really.....DO YOU THINK SOMEONE AS ENLIGHTENED AS MYSELF WOULD LISTEN TO EITHER MUSLIMS OR CHRISTIANS, AS BOTH WERE DOING THEIR BEST TO RECRUIT ME? Get the fuck outta here....religion is responsible for the worst things in history..i stay far from it. My purpose in life is to evolve/spread my seed and provide for it; try to leave a better world than i came into. ANYTHING ELSE....IS KINDA SECONDARY. Maye if niggas lke you, nd the roman catholic church, and the fundamental muslims and shit would all shut the fuck up and realize that....there wouldnt be so much genocide and shit. But you keep waiting for your "space god" to tell you what to do.:hmm:

First off..........MAN....NOT RELIGION is responsible for some of the worse things in History.You cant judge the car by it's Driver! Second of all if you are sooo "Enlightened" you would realize that you dont know anything regardless of what you perceive as Truth & Fact. I aint here to bash nobody but I laugh at Folks who swear just because they read a couple of Books they got it ALL figured out. (As you stated you only "heard" about that book :rolleyes:)

Homie who started the thread simply offered to share some Information he attained........asking for some feedback & Here comes MR. ENLIGHTENED on some "BULLSHIT"-RaaaRaaa.WTF????

Thats why we as a people ain't EVER gonna make progress because somebody is always on that negative shit!!

The current population of this planet is about 6,654,984,723
and rising,that many Humans .........and NONE of us have the same Fingerprints.NONE ARE THE SAME!!!

If you took all your Nerve Strands and lined them up they would span around the whole planet Earth!!! Yet ans still all that is compacted inside your Body.

We are made up of countless strands of DNA.......COUNTLESS.....yet and still about a Teaspoon full of DNA contains more Information/Data than the entire Ecyclopedia Brittanica! One DNA molecule inside your cells contains about 750 megabytes of information!! (consider the size of a molecule at this point!)

Your Heart Pumps 2113,6 Gallons of Blood thru your Body Everyday!! It Doesnt take breaks..............

The brain is like a 168,0000 MHz Pentium computer!!! thats about 4,800 3,5ghz processors:eek:!!

The Human eye has an approx. resolution of 576 megapixels!!!! Fuck a Digicam!!

The human body is more complex and advanced than any machine we could invent.

So this "Coincidence" is actually more complex than anything we could accomplish??

Now lemme guess......you will probably agree that ALL this is Coincidence or Accident?:hmm:

Not a Product of Intelligent Design?

Lemme put it your terms so you'll understand:

"You really think this Shit just happened by Accident and not Design?"

Fuck a Universe........look at yourself Bro!!....it's Evident! Our Problem as Humans is the fact that we simply CANNOT accept a SIMPLE answer to some Questions regarding Creation and mind you....EVERY CREATION, in order to be labeled as such, HAS TO HAVE A CREATOR!

This is not about Religion Bruh it's about evidence of God's existence NOT what some might think he looks like...that shit is irrelevant.

You CANNOT deny TRUTH/FACT!!!

GOD doesnt need us that is true!!!!......We need him (taking into account that all he supplied/supplies us with on a daily basis is a Necessity to EXIST.....AIR, SUN,WATER etc.).......So why not say thanks from time to time;) )

I'm bout to go fix me a Sammich...........................Peace!!:lol:
 
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Not familiar with this book. If you've read it perhaps you could tell us how it refutes what I've said. No I was not "dead" two sentences into the thread. Unless you can refute what I said in those 2 sentences. Is Quantitative reasoning intelligence or not? I await your reply.

Which is it?
Is it the reasoning or the logic that is intelligence?
(One is the movement the other is the medium.)

Kuhn undermined the fundamental assumption of objectivity in science by defining science (and the scientific community) socially. He coined the modern meaning of paradigm, and proposed that absent a neutral paradigm, no true objectivity can be achieved. Objectivity is only relative to the paradigm (social group and the rules of conduct born of it). So as paradigms shift....

But we are talking about God. What that bit means in general is that claims of final objective proofs can never truly get off the ground. Of course we can't escape paradigms so our arguments will necessarily be relative to the, which usually makes this academic. But your argument isn't even objective relative to the paradigm!

You've written paragraphs over-elaborating a point:
The capacity we have to reason proves logic proves supra-human intelligence.

Assuming I've distilled the proof correctly, it in-and-of-itself does not proceed objectively. Reason "requires" logic, because logic is the paradigm of reason. It does not follow, simply, that logic necessarily "requires" a superior "reasoner" for its own existence. That can easily lead to an infinite regress devolving into the classic watch, watchmaker, watchmakermaker line of debate.

But even if it were objectively true (relative to the paradigm) that our ability to reason quantitatively proves a medium of intelligence greater than ourselves, you still fail to provide an objective link between that and "God."

The conclusion is that INFORMATION, DESIGN, PATTERN, MATHEMATICAL THINKING and not "irritability are at the foundation of the creation of living matter. Not a single living form could come into being without this complex, very complex mathematical design at its foundation. We must conclude, then that it is INTELLIGENCE that created living things, and not the other way around. And this intelligence does not have a body! What? Who is it? What is the extent of this intelligence? Do not scientist have proof of its omniscience?

You introduced "mathematical thinking" and "design" as the foundations of living matter without providing any evidence for that prior to the introduction, then try to use that undemonstrated premise to support the your God theory. (Simply exposing the irritability hypothesis does not create a design hypothesis.)

1)The point is diven home by the understanding that we are able to think mathematically because we have been endowed with the capacity to do so by God. We could have been made dumb and totally insensible to such notions like asses and all other creatures. Were this so, the mathematical patterns underlying the creation of physical matter, and living things would still be there. 2) It has totally escaped the understanding of western scientist that scientific thinking is the expression of the ability to recongnize the quantifiable side of the world. Quantitative reasoning, the backbone of science, is nothing more than man's thinking following the manner in which processes occur in the world. 3) If nature was not built on quantifiable patterns, then quantitative reasoning about natural events would totally useless, and foolish. Man does not create or invent science. 4)Scientist do not invent, they discover the science (information) stored in nature - an embodiment of God's designing intelligence.

1) Again, no evidence is provided linking a capacity for mathematics with a necessary endowment by "God."

2) Says who? The lack of a unified field theory is one example of something that is clearly, currently, unquantifiable. And it is not controversial among scientists that much of nature "exists" outside of any human potential to quantify it.

3) That nature expresses quantifiable patterns is not evidence that it was "built" (by a "builder"), at all.

4) Plenty of scientists do invent (Edison, Carver). But they don't invent science and none would claim to (name one). Scientists discover what is discoverable in nature. And no discovery yet has provided relatively objective proof of design.


And how you can even attempt to tie the precision of empiricist argument to those vagueries about race and "the West," is baffling.
 
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Supposedly a great many physicists are (privately) religious men.

I think its difficult to study just how perfectly the universe is crafted, down to the smallest quarks on up to the biggest galaxies, on every level--atomic, molecular, geological, astronomical--and not embrace at the very least, intelligent design.

Deism and Agnosticism make sense to me. Atheism does not.
 

Fuck a Universe........look at yourself Bro!!....it's Evident! Our Problem as Humans is the fact that we simply CANNOT accept a SIMPLE answer to some Questions regarding Creation and mind you....EVERY CREATION, in order to be labeled as such, HAS TO HAVE A CREATOR!

Then who or what created the creator? Or are you suggesting simplicity comes out of complexity?

Just playing devil's advocate. If you want or need to convince someone of the existence of a greater being then you should use a better rationale.

Damn... when did folks trade in cogency for big fonts?

:lol::lol: Yes, if you want someone to take you serious then you must shout at them.
 
I am not a Christian or a Muslim or a follower of Judaism. What I know is that the degree to which God exists in this world is the exact measure of the extent to which God lives within and through each of us. Western man has undertaken an assault on the very notion of a Divine Intelligence and has done so since the advent of Greeks. You may examine the world for a inkling of what the result of the removal of God has been. Sadly too many who follow the 3 "worldly" religions believe that they can sit in church on Sunday and praise God while living and behaving like animals the other six days of the week. :smh:

The problem is the three worldly religions are religions of belief. To believe something is to NOT KNOW. I do not believe in God I KNOW GOD. For the African knowledge of God required the placement of God not only in their lives but in all aspects of their culture and society. I do not need chemistry or theoretical physics to know God but some of you do - largely because you have been trained to think and live like white men. Since God is KNOWABLE then it is no enormous task to present in a way that is objective - which is what I have done.

No I assure you I am not dumb.

Funny I assume you are a Christian with your background - yet you speak of Gods creation Man and Woman with contempt "mortals", doesn't your Bible tell you that "God made man in His own image" - ?? What does this mean to you? That God looks like a man or God forbid a woman?? Come on bruh! Know who you are?

Nice fuckin post.

really.....DO YOU THINK SOMEONE AS ENLIGHTENED AS MYSELF WOULD LISTEN TO EITHER MUSLIMS OR CHRISTIANS, AS BOTH WERE DOING THEIR BEST TO RECRUIT ME? Get the fuck outta here...

If you were truly enlightened, you would not proclaim yourself as such in this manner.

Um......I am the furthest thing from a christian. In fact I am COMPLETELY AMORAL. "mortals" is just a term I use jokingly.

Your arguments for resettling in Africa and building up West African nations sound pretty moral, actually. You speak of a strong love for and pride in your family, which is moral.

You're a young dude, man. All this passion and arrogance is admirable but as you get older, you'll learn that its not all black and white and clear cut like you have it in your mind. That goes for your perceptions AND self-perception.

Just a bit of advice. Do with it what you will.

Dertbagg and RBG, I hope you guys keep this up. This is a cool little thread.

To the homie that thinks it should just be posting pussy and fuck the barbershop talk, you're missing an essential reason for BGOL.

You can get free pussy and porn from a hundred different blogs. This here is THE black barbershop of the internet. Dont knock the hustle.
 
Supposedly a great many physicists are (privately) religious men.

I think its difficult to study just how perfectly the universe is crafted, down to the smallest quarks on up to the biggest galaxies, on every level--atomic, molecular, geological, astronomical--and not embrace at the very least, intelligent design.

Deism and Agnosticism make sense to me. Atheism does not.

Well said.
 
Then who or what created the creator? Or are you suggesting simplicity comes out of complexity?

Just playing devil's advocate. If you want or need to convince someone of the existence of a greater being then you should use a better rationale.

I never said anything about Creation being simple.I said we sometimes dont wanna accept simple Answers because we think it cant be that easy.....
 
Which is it?
Is it the reasoning or the logic that is intelligence?
(One is the movement the other is the medium.)

Kuhn undermined the fundamental assumption of objectivity in science by defining science (and the scientific community) socially. He coined the modern meaning of paradigm, and proposed that absent a neutral paradigm, no true objectivity can be achieved. Objectivity is only relative to the paradigm (social group and the rules of conduct born of it). So as paradigms shift....

But we are talking about God. What that bit means in general is that claims of final objective proofs can never truly get off the ground. Of course we can't escape paradigms so our arguments will necessarily be relative to the, which usually makes this academic. But your argument isn't even objective relative to the paradigm!

You've written paragraphs over-elaborating a point:
The capacity we have to reason proves logic proves supra-human intelligence.

Assuming I've distilled the proof correctly, it in-and-of-itself does not proceed objectively. Reason "requires" logic, because logic is the paradigm of reason. It does not follow, simply, that logic necessarily "requires" a superior "reasoner" for its own existence. That can easily lead to an infinite regress devolving into the classic watch, watchmaker, watchmakermaker line of debate.

But even if it were objectively true (relative to the paradigm) that our ability to reason quantitatively proves a medium of intelligence greater than ourselves, you still fail to provide an objective link between that and "God."



You introduced "mathematical thinking" and "design" as the foundations of living matter without providing any evidence for that prior to the introduction, then try to use that undemonstrated premise to support the your God theory. (Simply exposing the irritability hypothesis does not create a design hypothesis.)



1) Again, no evidence is provided linking a capacity for mathematics with a necessary endowment by "God."

2) Says who? The lack of a unified field theory is one example of something that is clearly, currently, unquantifiable. And it is not controversial among scientists that much of nature "exists" outside of any human potential to quantify it.

3) That nature expresses quantifiable patterns is not evidence that it was "built" (by a "builder"), at all.

4) Plenty of scientists do invent (Edison, Carver). But they don't invent science and none would claim to (name one). Scientists discover what is discoverable in nature. And no discovery yet has provided relatively objective proof of design.


And how you can even attempt to tie the precision of empiricist argument to those vagueries about race and "the West," is baffling.

I feel you on your "reasoning" of what was dropped on us by the OP. However Dertbagg, I'm more compelled to use critical thinking in this manner on this particular topic. You are right, without solid, concrete evidence, one cannot back up claims of an Intelligent Design without linking the "facts" together cogently. The OP gave what is called a vague definition and used tautology (circular thinking) both of which I'm sure you're familiar with.

However, because there are little facts to "link together", it makes you wonder how theoretical physicists can make some of their claims of how the Universe is structured. There is neither physical nor sometimes even visible evidence to support their calculations, only that they are gathering this information and trying to compile it to make a sound argument as to how the Universe is structured. No one on this earth has ever seen the Universe from a different vantage point outside of our solar system.

So then we must analyze why people ask questions and investigate in the first place...because they don't know. We find that through applying certain "laws" of physical science that we experience on earth to other celestial bodies in our universe that the same conditions somewhat work most of the time. What scientists can't figure out, they chalk up to either error on their part or just the unknown not yet discovered...the unquantifiable. However, spiritual people take that same bit of unknown and apply a "God" to it.

So how is the existence of God explained? Should it even be attempted because it is fastened so tightly on belief and not evidence? As in the response that I was going to give Dale, the reason why some theoretical physicists and scientists as a whole will sometimes have a belief in God is because they find that some things can't be quantified or explained.

This is my rationalization of the whole thing...If you analyze string and membrane theory ALLLLLL the way back to before the Big Bang, there still needs to be something that should have started it all. We say that with the Conservation of Energy, energy can neither be created or destroyed just transferred into different states, well then that goes against the model of the current Universe...unless you believe that the energy will seep into another dimensional space/time and create another universe and so on...Still begs the need to answer the question who created it all.

*Disclaimer: In no way Dertbagg was I trying to disprove you or your reasoning, just use my own thought process to get to the same conclusion you did.*



Supposedly a great many physicists are (privately) religious men.

I think its difficult to study just how perfectly the universe is crafted, down to the smallest quarks on up to the biggest galaxies, on every level--atomic, molecular, geological, astronomical--and not embrace at the very least, intelligent design.

Deism and Agnosticism make sense to me. Atheism does not.
 
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