completely off.
the celtics used that exact D on tobe and it confused him into utter frustration.
Jim Buss: Bynum is untouchable and Kobe felt he should have been consulted
- Thread starter killa kadafi191
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completely off.
the celtics used that exact D on tobe and it confused him into utter frustration.
when you consider the FACT that much of the above is pure BULLSHIT spewed by no knowledge stans, then you realize there is no reasoning with individuals like this.
rarely given open looks? funny, because shooting over the top of the D is always an open look. and funny, because most of tobe's shots are from distance and over the top of the D. but oh, my mistake, i'm speaking on REALITY.
always guarded by the opponent's best defender?
you might as well throw in that other myth about tobe always guarding the opponent's best player too.
tobe stans forever the revisionists.
why don't you post the link to the thread?
first off, i was never "arguing" anything. i was refuting your bullshit.
second, it wasn't "strong defensive" teams. but nice try at building a straw man. the facts i presented illustrated tobe's performance against winning teams and losing teams. but again, nice try.
this was in the pitiful thread where you hand picked some games to try and illustrate how tobe could increase his rebounding in the absence of shaquille o'neal.
to paraphrase your quote:
"OH, REALLY SUPREMEGIZZLE/THURGOOD?!?! WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT TOBE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME REBOUNDING WITHOUT SHAQUILLE O'NEAL IN THE GAME?!?!"
and of course, you purposely omitted the fact that the fakers lost more than half those games you hand picked for your example.
when you consider the FACT that much of the above is pure BULLSHIT spewed by no knowledge stans, then you realize there is no reasoning with individuals like this.
rarely given open looks? funny, because shooting over the top of the D is always an open look. and funny, because most of tobe's shots are from distance and over the top of the D. but oh, my mistake, i'm speaking on REALITY.
always guarded by the opponent's best defender?
you might as well throw in that other myth about tobe always guarding the opponent's best player too.
Jason Kidd
Jarrett Jack
maybe not.
but is it because you're 1 of those people that are afraid of statistics? because there sure are a lot on BGOL. so funny though, because in 1 thread those same people will talk down statistics, but in another thread you'll see the same people using the same statistical categories as evidence for their claim. sometimes it happens in the same thread.
or is it not because you're afraid of statistics, but because you are 1 of the people who OBVIOUSLY fails to understand them? in this thread, for example, you had an individual attempt to dismiss a statistical measure of .06, ridiculously claiming that the figure was "too minute".
since those types of individuals fail to UNDERSTAND statistics, it needs to be made plain to them that the REAL WORLD difference is the difference between being TOP TEN or BOTTOM TEN in the NBA.
but ignorance is bliss, and on BGOL, the uneducated and ignorant merrily roll along.
better off to stick one's head in the sand (or somewhere else less attractive) and deem the statistics "obscure", right?
lol. When you consider that it's coming from the free throw line number 1, a position where you can improve. and 2. that said player (Howard) not only takes away more points on the defensive end, appears in more games, and is the FIRST option and not the THIRD option then yes. .06 can and will be dismissed.
The circumstances are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
You can ride the stats all you want, but don't ignore the CIRCUMSTANCES.
When Bynum is the number 1 option, receives the same or similar defensive attention, plays the same type of defense (enough for three time DPOY) and isn't a potential injury waiting to happen EVERY GAME, then please, bring the .06 up all you want.
But until he does that.... I can toss that weak ass stat out the window.
But with a player like D. Rose out there where they cant send a bunch of help defenders...plus.. Rose would be breaking down the defense and creating easier shots by Kobe. D. Rose does not make the greatest decisions with the ball but it should benefit his game having another offensive weapon on the perimeter.
and he is certainly better than Bogans man.
The Bulls are struggling for a number of reasons but one of them is being too dependent on D. Rose offensively... their other perimeter players struggle getting of their own shots...
again..a player like Allen would be a better fit but Kobe is an upgrade over Bogans
No, see when you bring your stats you give hard numbers... this xfactor nigga talking some other shit... Offenses don't run through Bogans, they run through Kobe so yeah Bogus shit would look a bit more level to Kobe cause he don't touch the ball that much but realistically you would take Bogans over Kobe? seriously rabbage your hate can't be that strong.
Don't even bother.
D Rose + Kobe =/= Fisher + Kobe
You can't defend both groups the same, and one group is much easier to defend.
I won't say which one.
One thing I notice, some people argue within a vacuum.
Bogans being better than Kobe is up there with the comment of Kobe being a two time DPOY winner. Maybe worse lol.No, see when you bring your stats you give hard numbers... this xfactor nigga talking some other shit... Offenses don't run through Bogans, they run through Kobe so yeah Bogus shit would look a bit more level to Kobe cause he don't touch the ball that much but realistically you would take Bogans over Kobe? seriously rabbage your hate can't be that strong.
I honestly think he didn't do well in the NBA, and uses what knowledge he does have here to make himself feel superior.cranrab = Salty ass, "supposedly" washed out NBA player, giving opinions on NBA matters
Nah, it's pretty clear.
in that specific D scheme (which is about as misunderstood as the triple post O), it doesn't matter who has the ball. the reaction is the same. you always hear/read fans struggling with it because they falsely claim double/triple/quadruple teams on players when there isn't any.
ray allen has spoken publicly on it, and attempted to give fans the best insight into it. probably a lost cause on his part, though.
And he has a right to his opinion, but the way he "tries" to act like he knows it all, and that whatever he says is the golden rule
cranrab = Salty ass, "supposedly" washed out NBA player, giving opinions on NBA matters
even if true, where does that put you?
The fact that you need to say that...
...is evidence something is incredibly wrong with some of these guys. I'm sorry. A joke is a joke, but there is just no way humanly fucking possible you can tell me you REALLY think Keith Bogans is anything resembling an upgrade from Kobe.
This is just getting stupid now.
This is like me sitting around trying to argue why DJ Mbenga is better than Michael Jordan. No one should take me, or anyone else that makes that argument seriously.
And he has a right to his opinion, but the way he "tries" to act like he knows it all, and that whatever he says is the golden rule
i see. so it has NOTHING to do with you feeling that i'm slighting someone or something you have become affectionate towards.
why then, i wonder, that your objections are only voiced over my comments with regard to a narrow couple of topics?
right.
also interesting that it's not the FACTS or HISTORICAL RECORD being challenged, but merely the manner of presentation.
guess these guys and the couple dozen more that are employed in almost every NBA team don't know what they're talking about either.
"Your eye is drawn to dramatic events, to scoring and getting scored on," says David Berri, an economics professor at Southern Utah and the lead author of The Wages of Wins: Taking Measure of the Many Myths in Modern Sport. "So it looks like the scorers are the best players."
Quantitative analysts can prove it. They treat a basketball game as a fluid event in which pace of play, lineup combinations and interactions among players all contribute to how points are scored and prevented. "On a typical scoring play, you can divvy up the credit much more precisely than we've done in the past," says Dan Rosenbaum, a part-time adviser to the Cavaliers who is also a senior economist in the White House Office of Management and Budget. "You need to account for the guy who set the pick, the guy who made the pass, the guy who set up in the corner to spread the floor, the guy who cleared space by moving down the lane—and that's just the offense."
but hey, BGOL believes in the old "eye test" as superior.
Notice, I didnt say double-triple teams. I specifically said help defense. When you look at the way the Heat are defending Rose... they are doing two things..
a. funneling him to the strong side help defender
b. creating an interior wall to cut off his penetration
Maybe b could not change with Kobe on the floor...
But the help defender would not be able to cheat... they arent even worrying about Bogans and Korver is broke right now and the other two SGs arent even worth mentioning.... so they dont even have to worry about that SG on the floor..they can cheat and support Bibby with the help defense....Bibby is solely funneling Rose to the help defender (but doing that better than I expected)..
then they can rotate fresh legs on D. Rose in the 4th..
with Kobe on the floor...Bibby would be forced to defend Rose by himself...and that aint happening..or they would have to move Wade or Lebron on Rose..and then Bibby is still the odd-man out... or they wont be as effective because they will be forced to expend energy on the defensive end..
Give Chicago a decent SG and this is a different series..give them Kobe, and the heat would have an entirely different game plan because what they are currently doing wouldnt work
man, if only daryl morey knew as much as BGOL "basketball" fans.
what a waste of an MIT education.
dumb ass statisticians.
metrics and analytics in basketball? impossible.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/sports/basketball/28morey.html
what a waste of an MIT education.
dumb ass statisticians.
metrics and analytics in basketball? impossible.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/sports/basketball/28morey.html
even if true, where does that put you?
i see. so it has NOTHING to do with you feeling that i'm slighting someone or something you have become affectionate towards.
why then, i wonder, that your objections are only voiced over my comments with regard to a narrow couple of topics?
right.
also interesting that it's not the FACTS or HISTORICAL RECORD being challenged, but merely the manner of presentation.
guess these guys and the couple dozen more that are employed in almost every NBA team don't know what they're talking about either.
"Your eye is drawn to dramatic events, to scoring and getting scored on," says David Berri, an economics professor at Southern Utah and the lead author of The Wages of Wins: Taking Measure of the Many Myths in Modern Sport. "So it looks like the scorers are the best players."
Quantitative analysts can prove it. They treat a basketball game as a fluid event in which pace of play, lineup combinations and interactions among players all contribute to how points are scored and prevented. "On a typical scoring play, you can divvy up the credit much more precisely than we've done in the past," says Dan Rosenbaum, a part-time adviser to the Cavaliers who is also a senior economist in the White House Office of Management and Budget. "You need to account for the guy who set the pick, the guy who made the pass, the guy who set up in the corner to spread the floor, the guy who cleared space by moving down the lane—and that's just the offense."
but hey, BGOL believes in the old "eye test" as superior.
All this above bullshit aside, no, it has nothing to do with anything I have feelings about, my objections are in relation to everything you discuss about basketball.
As a basketball fan, I see your bullshit from a mile away.
i see. so it has NOTHING to do with you feeling that i'm slighting someone or something you have become affectionate towards.
why then, i wonder, that your objections are only voiced over my comments with regard to a narrow couple of topics?
right.
also interesting that it's not the FACTS or HISTORICAL RECORD being challenged, but merely the manner of presentation.
guess these guys and the couple dozen more that are employed in almost every NBA team don't know what they're talking about either.
"Your eye is drawn to dramatic events, to scoring and getting scored on," says David Berri, an economics professor at Southern Utah and the lead author of The Wages of Wins: Taking Measure of the Many Myths in Modern Sport. "So it looks like the scorers are the best players."
Quantitative analysts can prove it. They treat a basketball game as a fluid event in which pace of play, lineup combinations and interactions among players all contribute to how points are scored and prevented. "On a typical scoring play, you can divvy up the credit much more precisely than we've done in the past," says Dan Rosenbaum, a part-time adviser to the Cavaliers who is also a senior economist in the White House Office of Management and Budget. "You need to account for the guy who set the pick, the guy who made the pass, the guy who set up in the corner to spread the floor, the guy who cleared space by moving down the lane—and that's just the offense."
but hey, BGOL believes in the old "eye test" as superior.
Excellent post!!!
Even the guys at ESPN make statements like:
"Player X gave you nothing"
"So and So have NO bench"
"So and SO had a bad game, they scored 8 points"
Even most of the people on here only look at scoring as playing basketball.
It seems to work though...it sells shoes and jerseys
Well, that's mainly because, technically speaking, scoring is the only thing in basketball that HAS to be done to win.
You know...whoever scores the most points win.
Everything else is done with the scoring being the end goal.
That's why a great scorer is going to be taken over a great anything else in the draft, all day, every day.
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Listen. You know Im a fan of the subtle details. That is why I appreciate boxers like James Toney, Floyd, and BHop. They dont have the KO rate, offensive game, etc that some of the more media-heralded boxers have, but the purists understand those 3 sit well above a boxer like Pacman on the all-time list because of their true technical ability....those most casual fans couldnt even begin to pick out.
However, there is no way to sell me on Bogans being better than Kobe Bryant despite the several problems I have with his game.
Even though the team that scores the most points win, there are a lot of other factors that contribute to the scoring.
Cranrab, and SpiritualPorn have good points in that regard. (Yes Cranrab, I can agree with you, when you make sense
)
Understood.....
Even though the team that scores the most points win, there are a lot of other factors that contribute to the scoring.
Cranrab, and SpiritualPorn have good points in that regard. (Yes Cranrab, I can agree with you, when you make sense
Dude, I'm well aware of this. I get what they're saying, but don't act like if other things aren't done, a good game wasn't played. Sometimes you're not going to grab a lot of boards and dish a lot of assists as a player. Shit happens, and it's not always your fault. You can contribute in other ways other than scoring, and play a good game. All I'm saying is, a team can grab two hundred rebounds in a game, and have three hundred steals...
...but, as amazing as those stats would be, if they don't convert those into points, it was all for naught.
I know cranrab's schtick, however. Because Kobe isn't a flawless player - no one is - he zero's in on Kobe's flaws, and blow them up to the size of planets.
Basically, what cranrab does is no different than me seeing Halle Berry, seeing she has a mole on the side of her face and saying, 'Oh, god .... that is the ugliest bitch I've ever seen in my life!!!!!!" No, dumbass, you're too focused on the damned mole.
That's cranrab's whole problem. Otherwise, cranrab, and those of his ilk, are the only ones that are aware that Kobe Bryant is a terrible basketball player.
That does not compute. Never will.
Everyone understands that....
But too often the best scorer is looked at like the best BBall player...
That's where shit gets stupid...
and also..
it's not just the best scorer...
it's the best and most efficient scorer....
we are seeing how it goes when a player scores 25 points on 28 shots aren't we?
Supremeextreme
What people don't like about "the Kobe myth" is that he is put in this GOAT and better than Jordan category when he isn't really close....
When you hold someone in that regard you have to look at both ends of the floor
Then when he fails, you guys come out of the woodwork and blame his teammates, yet give none of them credit when the Lakers win.
You go so far to gloss over the obvious faults that the equal opposite reaction is to point out the flaws.
If Kobr is shrewd he would excrise his opt out clause and go to Chicago
well...the bulls do need a SG
Then we use Kobe as trade bait for Derron Williams.
Actually Jim Buss so far kinda of reminds me of Jerry Krause.
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I think you might be on to something....
When Buss told Kobe it was his team back in 03-04, you see how Kobe acted.
He better than anyone can read the writing on the wall.
I think they will build around Howard....Bynum just seems too fragile.
Then we use Kobe as trade bait for Derron Williams.
Where are u getting this deron williams to chi stuff from????
Hahahahah
What cap space u have??? Bulls just gave a contract to boozer, an extension to Noah and Rose is due for one whenever the season starts he will get maxed out.
Where u going to come up with the money to get Deron?????
There was only one team that had me nervous and thanks to Tyson Chandler that will no longer be a problem.
If Kobr is shrewd he would excrise his opt out clause and go to Chicago
Two shot jackers on the same team?
Kobe doesn't play the kind of D Thibbs would require.....
and it wouldn't be his team, it would be Rose's team
Kobe's ways would show up even moreso
Give LA Boozer, Korver and draft picks for Kobe. If Buss likes Bynum so much he might love a Boozer/Bynum combo.
You guys are killing me today. You can be serious.
Draft picks only mean something if the pick is high enough to be worth something. Now unless you have portland or the spurs scout the bulls draft pick means nothing.
Hell the nets have one of the bulls picks. We got it from when the nets traded cdr to the bucks and they got that pick when the bulls traded salmon there.
Any way boozer and krover for bryant??? Come on again kobe will not be traded.
Not because he is so valuable but because he will be 30 plus with one of the biggest contracts in the league. Naw naw naw. He won't be traded.
I'm telling the bulls will explore courtney lee again and look at JR (who they tried to trade for) and Nick Young.
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