*** HBO Boxing: Jean Pascal vs. Bernard Hopkins II - Official Thread ***
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you don't think he's top 25 all-time
not yet... top 25 of all-time of all weight classes... Bhop is probably my favorite boxer that is currently still fighting...but there are some huge names in that top 25 man..we are talking about 100 years of boxing across a ton of weight classes... but I think two more wins..maybe even one more good one could get him really close
just curious would you have lennox in your top 25?
you don't think he's top 25 all-time
He PROBABLY a top 10 Middleweight....
Top 25 all-time....nah.
Top 5 middleweight imo. I can see him giving anybody problems from Monzon on down to Hagler.
What about Sugar Ray?
Charley Burley of the Black murderers row beats Hopkins at Middleweight 10 out of 10 times and none would be close.
He was Hopkins before there was a Hopkins...
no..not even in my top 75
Bhop is a definite top 10 not probable...and would probably make most top 5 lists..
why do you think that... Im asking seriously because I do know that Burley lost fights that were to fighters that Bhop would have beaten....but you probably know way more about Burley than I do...I find it hard to believe that he would blank Bhop but why do you think it would be that decisive but you are basically saying he is another class completely and it is not even close
I don't think you can say that but its no different than saying about any fighter from one era fighting a fighter from a different era, the truth of the matter is there is no way of knowing but the fighter from the older era will always get the nod in most cases because there legend and folklore become bigger than them as time passes.
Even though there was limited footage of Burley, he was regarded by many as the best fighter who ever lived.
The man was virtually un-hittbale.
Sugar Ray Robinson publicly stated that he would never fight him because he knew he wouldn't win.
The majority of Burley's losses cam from the other fighters in the "Black Murderers Row" that no one else would fight at the time. One of the main guys, Holman Williams beat Burley like 3-4 times.
None of those guys could ever get any big fights because they were so good.
Even Eddie Futch said that Burley was the greatest ever.
yeah...i noticed the several losses to Williams... I dont know enough about dude to even debate it....was just interested to know why you said that...
just hard to imagine Bhop getting outclassed like that because he has fought some greats himself and never really been outclassed...
edit..watching this vid now and interesting...they use Bhop to illustrate Burley
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i just posted that other video above.i had edited my post before i saw that you added them... man..i would love to watch some full fights of him...damn...
edit..and that would be in interesting fight to see Bhop in because Bhop has never fought anyone with that type of defense (at least from the limited vids ive seen so far) only the billy smith vid exists...damn
edit..and that would be in interesting fight to see Bhop in because Bhop has never fought anyone with that type of defense (at least from the limited vids ive seen so far) only the billy smith vid exists...damn
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Fighters recognised under the Murderers’ Row banner include Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Jack Chase, Eddie Booker, Elmer Ray, Aaron Wade and Bert Lytell. Avoided by many of the famous names of the day, the nine Murderers’ Row fighters faced each other a total of 61 times, the fights often classics and gruelling contests.[3] None of the fighters would ever compete for a title, despite being at the top of the rankings for many years and widespread admiration in the world of boxing.
I don't know man, Sugar Ray was a beast. Burley I'm not to sure about because he never got to face that next level competition. Prolly too much risk for too lil reward. I think B-Hop could compete but would ultimately lose to Suagr Ray. There is VERY LITTLE film on Burley so we don't really know how good he was, all we know is what other people say and the fact that no one would fight him but legends often tend to become a bit exaggerated and stretched over time.
Yeah, I don't buy it. 50 years from now, if the only tape that existed of Floyd Mayweather was his fight vs Corrales it would be hard to pick anybody to beat him. What I'm asking is how good was the guy he's fighting in the video. Not questioning Burley's mastery of boxing but completely outclassing another master boxer like B-Hop he would have to be perfect and his record shows he wasn't.
Also here's another quote from Burley himself to put into perspective Ray "ducking" him.
"Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."
"You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray."
Same thing Im thinking here... Bhop has excellent defense, intelligence, skill, and discipline...together with a top notch chin.... he may lose that fight but i dont think he gets outclassed....with either Ray or Burley.... they probably just beat him on the cards because they would probably just statistically land more shots and also do it more stylistically... Sugar Ray is the goat but just based on style..I think Burley would be the tougher fight for Bhop
yeah...from what i was just reading..the 2nd time Ray pulled out of the fight was because there wasnt any money in it...at least that is what was cited as the reason...
Maybe, styles do make fights. Look, in his prime, I find it hard to see anybody beating Roy Jones Jr. at middle weight, style or no style - dude was probably the most physically gifted fighter ever but that doesn't mean he's in my all time top 5 list of middleweights. But still I could see him beating anybody at 160, blasphemy I know, but I have a hard time seeing Hagler, Burley or even Sugar Ray beating Roy at 160 in his prime. Well maybe not Sugar, Sugar was fast as hell and had murder in either hand and Roy had that Glass Joe jaw.
For me there's 4 modern guys, other than Hagler, that I could see competing with anybody at middleweight. Hopkins, Jones, McCallum, and a properly trained James Toney. Then again, with the exception of Jones, they all have that throwback style so that says a lot about the old school way of boxing.
Maybe, styles do make fights. Look, in his prime, I find it hard to see anybody beating Roy Jones Jr. at middle weight, style or no style - dude was probably the most physically gifted fighter ever but that doesn't mean he's in my all time top 5 list of middleweights. But still I could see him beating anybody at 160, blasphemy I know, but I have a hard time seeing Hagler, Burley or even Sugar Ray beating Roy at 160 in his prime. Well maybe not Sugar, Sugar was fast as hell and had murder in either hand and Roy had that Glass Joe jaw.
For me there's 4 modern guys, other than Hagler, that I could see competing with anybody at middleweight. Hopkins, Jones, McCallum, and a properly trained James Toney. Then again, with the exception of Jones, they all have that throwback style so that says a lot about the old school way of boxing.
How do you have McCallum ahead of Toney, he lost to Toney 2 times. and he lost to Jones.
Hopkins schooled that young fella tonight, good fight. Usually Hopkins fights are boring, this was very action packed...
Props on the Burley info brothers, you learn something new every day.
I'm about to order his book on Amazon and try to learn about him and the black murderers row (I've heard about them for years but I still don't really know a lot about them)
I'm about to order his book on Amazon and try to learn about him and the black murderers row (I've heard about them for years but I still don't really know a lot about them)
I agree with you but you have to give credit to the fact that he was able to get a belt at 46. The longevity of his career added to his record and the fact that he fought some of the best in his division at their peaks.... I think you can argue he is a top 25 fighter.
Also on a side note fuck Calzaghe's punk ass for fighting all the big names at the end of their careers when he knew they would have fucked him up earlier in their careers....
hats off to b-hop...still in the mix of things....personally id rather see him against someone like tavoris cloud who im sure will give him a much harder time rather than dawson or bute
cosigns..perfect example of a recent 4 round fight of that nature was on FNF last month - Mike Gavronski vs Tyrell Hendrix - no one knew who they were but i'll be damned if they didn't go to war for those 4 rounds..trading knockdowns a piece and looking like they went 12 all bloody and shit...i love boxing...its so unpredictable among other things...thats why i watch it
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McCallum was past his prime in all of those fights. He was a contemporary of Leonard/Hagler/Hearns/Duran. He fought Toney 3x and still gave him hell in all of their fights. He was 40 years old when he fought Jones and Toney for the last time. How many people do you know that can take a flush shot from Julian Jackson and still win?
He's a violent dude that loves his job even tho' he's retired like 50 times
That is not blasphemy...despite his shortcoming, in his prime, RJJ >>>>>>> his freakish overall speed and quickess..just freak of nature foot and hand-speed and reflexes make up for any of his fundamental shortcoming DURING his prime.... ive never seen a faster fighter pound for pound that RJJ and he has ridiculous power in both hands.... ive seen some quick cats like Sweat Pea,etc... but RJJ was a real freak of nature.... but again, he is definitely not a top 5 of all-time middleweight because of his overall body of work doesnt stand up against the others...ironic, but you make perfect since to me at least..
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I do...man..Ive been giving credit to Bhop on this board for years.... It is just very hard to get into the top 25 all-time..just have to considering the names there man..to even crack the top 40 you have really ridiculous and have a crazy body of work......I think he is still slightly outside of the top 25 because I have a hard time figuring out who to remove from that list.... but if he wins one more big fight like this... he has to at least get in that 23-25 range I think..
Calzaghe doesnt even make a top 300 list.
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