Where Do You Rank Olajuwon All-Time As A Player?

[Blunt]

They both averaged 14 boards as their high in rebounds.

But Olajuwon was the BEST in the league twice, and Shaq was supposedly superior. Given his physical presence he should've averaged 14.0 for his CAREER.

If Rodman wasn't such an animal, Shaq would have lead in that as well. SO move on with that.

Again, given Shaq's supposed dominance he needed to lead the league at some point. 2nd place to a freak like Rodman isn't good enough. Couldn't he have averaged 19 RPG some season if he really wanted to, or had the skill to??

Blocks Hakeem average 3 for his career

Shaq averaged 2.3

Hakeem averaged as many as 4.6 in a season, while Shaq never went over 2.9 after his rookie year. Again, we're not talking about whether Shaq was good enough, but whether he's the best OVERALL of his era.

BUT, the Dream was a more DOMINANT defender. Shaq was a more DOMINANT scorer.

Shaq was a totally one-dimensional scorer.

 

[gr8]

But Olajuwon was the BEST in the league twice, and Shaq was supposedly superior. Given his physical presence he should've averaged 14.0 for his CAREER.

Measured against potential...same numbers as Hakeem

Again, given Shaq's supposed dominance he needed to lead the league at some point. 2nd place to a freak like Rodman isn't good enough. Couldn't he have averaged 19 RPG some season if he really wanted to, or had the skill to??

Come'on man, we talkin bout RODMAN...not hakeem, not kareem...RODMAN. We in here talkin' bout RODMAN, not hakeem, not kareem...RODMAN (In my annoyed Iverson voice)

Hakeem averaged as many as 4.6 in a season, while Shaq never went over 2.9 after his rookie year. Again, we're not talking about whether Shaq was good enough, but whether he's the best OVERALL of his era.

He was a better defender than Shaq, BUT OVERALL, as you stated, means ENTIRE career. If you want to pick out individual seasons, Shaq's best year(s) are more plentiful than Hakeem's. And Hakeem's worst were MUCH , much worst.

Oh, and yeah 4 rings.

Shaq was a totally one-dimensional scorer.

Which dimension included the Hooks, Alleys and Thunderous Dunks? It just so happens that his BEST dimension was SO DOMINANT that he would bring down the whole FUCKIN BASKETBALL GOAL ASSEMBLY

How soon we've forgotten...SHAQ WAS A FUCKIN BEAST

AND he has more rings! did I say that?

 

[Blunt]

Measured against potential...same numbers as Hakeem

The same isn't better, and that's your claim.

Come'on man, we talkin bout RODMAN...not hakeem, not kareem...RODMAN. We in here talkin' bout RODMAN, not hakeem, not kareem...RODMAN (In my annoyed Iverson voice)

We're talking about Ben Wallace too, and Garnett and Motumbo, among others. He only finished behind Rodman for a few years early on. Others beat him out the rest of the way as well, with lesser totals. Shaq was only in the Top Ten in RPG 7 times compared to Hakeem's 10 times.

He was a better defender than Shaq, BUT OVERALL, as you stated, means ENTIRE career. If you want to pick out individual seasons, Shaqs best year(s) are more than Hakeem. And Hakeems worst were MUCH worst

It's not about individual seasons. It's about who brought more OVERALL talent to the table.

Which dimension includes the Hooks, Alleys and Thunderous Dunks? It just so happens that his BEST dimension was SO DOMINANT that he would bring down the whole FUCKIN BASKETBALL GOAL ASSEMBLY

All of which was accomplished two feet from the basket, and can be attributed to his freakish size. All well and good, but if he could also sink a 15-footer (or a Free Throw) then you might have a REAL b-ball player rather than just a freak of nature.

AND he has more rings and he was the MVP 3 out of those 4 ships

Scoring gets too much attention in MVP voting. Shaq obviously was on the better team and got the most hype, but he only beat out Hakeem in Top 5 MVP finishes by a score of 8-6.

 

[gr8]

I see you just refuse to look at my points, even AFTER quoting me

ll the guys you mentioned were defensive specialist who did not have the weight of being their teams leading scorer. STOP penalizing Shaq because he was a freak, so was Wilt. SO is Dwight...so is Yao, So was Sabonis, So was SHAWN BRADLEY! Catch my drift? He was a skilled big man, just not as skilled as Hakeem. BUT talent is only half the equation when you are talking GOAT. If we are talking talent, Vince is equal to or better than Kobe BODY OF WORK, dog...

Nearly identical stats, Double the rings, higher scoring averages and fg percentage, 2 rule changes, 3 or 4 backboards and 3 HORRIBLE movies later: Shaq is neck and neck with the Dream. Arguably better...I'm torn actually.

It's just humorous how you say ONLY like it was not enough when referring to Shaq's lack of top ten finishes in rbds 7-to-10

BUT you then say ONLY in support of Hakeem vs Shaq's MVP finishes 6-to-8

So, that 2-3 pt difference is Critical when using it AGAINST Shaq in your argument and not as significant when used FOR Hakeem.


Good points, btw...I'm just in defense mode

 

[Spectrum]

Where you think MJ got that spin/shake jumper move from?

MJ didnt even have that kind of footwork. I am completely convinced that the Dream had that kind of footwork solely because he grew up playing soccer.

 

[Blunt]

I see you just refuse to look at my points, even AFTER quoting me

Not sure why you'd think that.

All the guys you mentioned were defensive specialist who did not have the weight of being their teams leading scorer.

Shaq didn't have to be his team's top scorer. He could've chosen to be a defensive monster, and rebound specialist. And he wasn't even an RPG contender much after the first 3 or 4 years, nevermind a leader. All this wouldn't matter if people didn't keep trying to rank him at the top.

STOP penalizing Shaq because he was a freak, so was Wilt.

But Wilt could play, and he was quite lean early in his career. Please don't compare them. Wilt led the league in all the top center categories throughout his career. Shaq hasn't.

SO is Dwight...so is Yao, So was Sabonis, So was SHAWN BRADLEY! Catch my drift?

None of them are as big and brutish as Shaq. Yao has far greater shooting skills. Howard has greater defensive and rebounding skills. None of these folks were ever considered the giant "force of nature" that Shaq-Fu was.

He was a skilled big man, just not as skilled as Hakeem.

Still waiting to learn what those skills were. Having a big ass is not a b-ball skill.

Nearly identical stats,

By very different methods.

Double the rings, higher scoring averages and fg percentage, ...

We're not comparing them as shooters, are we???

It's just humorous how you say ONLY like it was not enough when referring to Shaq's lack of top ten finishes in rbds 7-to-10

Well, you said they were equal in RPG and I'm telling you that one was actually more dominant while reaching that average than the other.

BUT you then say ONLY in support of Hakeem vs Shaq's MVP finishes 6-to-8

Considering how much hype Shaq gets in comparison to Hakeem I think "only" is a fitting description. I doubt a lot of people realize Hakeem was in the mix for that many MVPs. Folks take it for granted that Shaq has ALWAYS been in the mix.

So, that 2-3 pt difference is Critical when using it AGAINST Shaq in your argument and not as significant when used FOR Hakeem.

Different categories with different standards. MVP is an extremely difficult area to consistently finish in the Top 5 in. On the other hand, it should be easy for someone like "Superman" to consistently finish in the Top 10 in RPG.

 

[THE DRIZZY]

MJ didnt even have that kind of footwork. I am completely convinced that the Dream had that kind of footwork solely because he grew up playing soccer.

The Dream was a great all time center. Top 5 all time center. He was undersized also. Dream was only 6'10 but he played much bigger. And yeah, soccer did help his footwork.

 

[gr8]

The FIRST few plays should REMIND some of you what this discussion is ALL about



AFTER dunking on Hakeem, David and the ENTIRE KINGS team...Shaq Rips Scottie at the 3 point line and goes COAST TO COAST...

NO SKILL? PLEASE

END DISCUSSION
THIS MOTHERFARKER WAS UNTOUCHABLE!

Notice how quickly the help came for Hakeem at 0:29. Rudy didn't call 4 that help...

And don't turn it off before 4:12 BLUNT

 

[gr8]

crickets

 

[cranrab]

this thread would not exist without moses malone developing hakeem olajuwon's game, so anywhere below moses malone as a C and anywhere above bill walton is just fine with me.

 

[thereason]

The FIRST few plays should REMIND some of you what this discussion is ALL about



AFTER dunking on Hakeem, David and the ENTIRE KINGS team...Shaq Rips Scottie at the 3 point line and goes COAST TO COAST...

NO SKILL? PLEASE

END DISCUSSION
THIS MOTHERFARKER WAS UNTOUCHABLE!

Notice how quickly the help came for Hakeem at 0:29. Rudy didn't call 4 that help...

And don't turn it off before 4:12 BLUNT

niggas have amnesia man, Shaq was a skilled beast, he just like a side started to rely more on his size later on

 

[ron_mexico]

I clearly stated Spurs, Kings, Pistons. Spurs beat them twice. Kings would have beat them had the refs allowed it. Pistons beat them. You are missing my point though. He dominated the weakest era in terms of center play in the history of the league. He was still strong and still demanding double teams and getting swept when the other great centers were at their peak. He didn't dominate the league until the center position damn near became extinct. Who were the other top 5 centers from 00-03?

You ever notice how the weakest era for centers became one of the strongest eras for Power Forwards. Its no coincedence, it's because when Shaq came into the leauge, all of a sudden you see a bunch 7'1" niggas start playing the 4.

usually because Rudy T, took Olajuwon off of Shaq to save him from getting into foul trouble. Shaq's style of play was almost conducive with getting fouls because he would run right at you.

And thats why you saw many teams switch thier best big man to the 4. Look at a team like Boston, KG 7'1" plays the 4 mainly and Pekins 6'10" plays the 5. How often did you see a 7 fter playing the 4 before Shaq. hell if you were 6-9 to 6'10 before Shaq there is a good chance your playing 5.

 

[Blunt]

The FIRST few plays should REMIND some of you what this discussion is ALL about.

The exception and not the rule. Who's gonna step in front of a locomotive?

NO SKILL? PLEASE

END DISCUSSION
THIS MOTHERFARKER WAS UNTOUCHABLE!

Not a slick jumpshot (just a miracle fadeaway), free throw, memorable rebound or a killer assist in the bunch. If you think slamdunks mean anything (and they don't mean much, in terms of true b-ball skill) then he's your man. Perfect for this low-expectations era.

 

[thereason]

You ever notice how the weakest era for centers became the one of the strongest eras for Power Forwards. Because when Shaq came into the leuage, all of a sudden you see a bunch 7'1" niggas start playing the 4.

*lookin at u Timmy*

 

[gr8]

The exception and not the rule. Who's gonna step in front of a locomotive?



Not a slick jumpshot, free throw, memorable rebound or a killer assist in the bunch. If you think slamdunks mean anything (and they don't mean much, in terms of true b-ball skill) then he's your man. Perfect for this low-expectations era.

SOoooooooooOOOO

After watching that video, you can't admit that Shaq was a SKILLED BIG?





And I would have forgiven you

TRUE B-BALL SKILL?

DID YOU SEE THAT MOFO Spin and catch MULTIPLE ALLEYS, ONE HANDED? Take the rock COAST TO COAST and the hesitation and spin for the dunk...please bro, you are REACHING

 

[gr8]

You ever notice how the weakest era for centers became one of the strongest eras for Power Forwards. Its no coincedence, it's because when Shaq came into the leauge, all of a sudden you see a bunch 7'1" niggas start playing the 4.




And thats why you saw many teams switch thier best big man to the 4. Look at a team like Boston, KG 7'1" plays the 4 mainly and Pekins 6'10" plays the 5. How often did you see a 7 fter playing the 4 before Shaq. hell if you were 6-9 to 6'10 before Shaq there is a good chance your playing 5.

AGREED

 

[H.Clarke]

This is a good take and statistical support.

99-00 lal 79 79 40.0 0.574 0.000 0.524 4.3 9.4 13.6 3.8 0.5 3.0 2.82 3.23 29.7
00-01 lal 74 74 39.5 0.572 0.000 0.513 3.9 8.8 12.7 3.7 0.6 2.8 2.95 3.46 28.7
01-02 lal 67 66 36.1 0.579 0.000 0.555 3.5 7.2 10.7 3.0 0.6 2.0 2.55 2.97 27.2
02-03 lal 67 66 37.8 0.574 0.000 0.622 3.9 7.2 11.1 3.1 0.6 2.4 2.93 3.42 27.5

PRIME SHAQ, age 28-32. NOBODY was guarding him, period. His 350 pound ass was catching spin around alleys for rings. A young skinny Dream would be asking for help from Ralph like he did way before Shaq developed any inside moves.

As much as I hate to give a lazy bastard credit...


He was un-guard-able. HACK A SHAQ

btw, never out for the season, as you suggested, he was too busy winning rings.

And let's not forget he was shooting 58% during those years...

Now before you try to pull them up:

97-98 HOU 47 45 34.7 .483 .000 .755 2.50 7.30 9.80 3.0 1.79 2.04 2.68 3.20 16.4
98-99 HOU 50 50 35.7 .514 .308 .717 2.10 7.40 9.60 1.8 1.64 2.46 2.78 3.20 18.9
99-00 HOU 44 28 23.8 .458 .000 .616 1.50 4.80 6.20 1.4 .93 1.59 1.66 2.00 10.3
00-01 HOU 58 55 26.6 .498 .000 .621 2.10 5.30 7.40 1.2 1.21 1.52 1.40 2.40 11.9
01-02 TOR 61 37 22.6 .464 .000 .560 1.60 4.40 6.00 1.1 1.21 1.48 1.61 2.40 7.1

The Dream dominated for 4-5 years and then FELL off, and I mean of EPIC proportions. Maybe even worse than Shaq has.

Yep, that's MR. "INJURED RESERVE" missing half of EVERY season AND getting DESTROYED by Shaq.

SHAQ's stats of late
06-07 MIA 40 39 28.4 7.1-12.0 .591 0.0-0.0 .000 3.1-7.3 .422 0.20 1.40 2.4 3.5 2.4 5.0 7.4 2.0 17.3
07-08 MIA 33 33 28.6 5.8-10.0 .581 0.0-0.0 .000 2.7-5.4 .494 0.60 1.60 3.0 4.1 3.0 4.8 7.8 1.4 14.2
… PHO 28 28 28.7 5.0-8.2 .611 0.0-0.0 .000 2.9-5.7 .513 0.50 1.20 3.0 3.4 2.4 8.2 10.6 1.7 12.9
08-09 PHO 75 75 30.0 6.8-11.2 .609 0.0-0.0 .000 4.1-6.9 .595 0.70 1.40 2.2 3.4 2.5 6.0 8.4 1.7 17.8
09-10 CLE 53 53 23.4 4.9-8.7 .566 0.0-0.0 .000 2.1-4.3 .496 0.30 1.20 2.0 3.2 1.8 4.9 6.7 1.5 12.0
G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS




So is shaq NOT falling off??

 

[gr8]

SHAQ's stats of late
06-07 MIA 40 39 28.4 7.1-12.0 .591 0.0-0.0 .000 3.1-7.3 .422 0.20 1.40 2.4 3.5 2.4 5.0 7.4 2.0 17.3
07-08 MIA 33 33 28.6 5.8-10.0 .581 0.0-0.0 .000 2.7-5.4 .494 0.60 1.60 3.0 4.1 3.0 4.8 7.8 1.4 14.2
… PHO 28 28 28.7 5.0-8.2 .611 0.0-0.0 .000 2.9-5.7 .513 0.50 1.20 3.0 3.4 2.4 8.2 10.6 1.7 12.9
08-09 PHO 75 75 30.0 6.8-11.2 .609 0.0-0.0 .000 4.1-6.9 .595 0.70 1.40 2.2 3.4 2.5 6.0 8.4 1.7 17.8
09-10 CLE 53 53 23.4 4.9-8.7 .566 0.0-0.0 .000 2.1-4.3 .496 0.30 1.20 2.0 3.2 1.8 4.9 6.7 1.5 12.0
G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS




So is shaq NOT falling off??

Of COURSE he is, but he is vilified when other greats have NOT been...in this case Hakeem.

I NEVER said he wasn't falling off, but Hakeem fell HARDER and FASTER, if you ask me.

 

[H.Clarke]

I was a big Shaq fan in the 90's, up til just recently....

But I grew up in the H watching Dream's game grow from U of H to the Rockets so I'm very bias..

I think most can agree, since Bill/Wilt/Jabbar.. Olajuwon is handsdown the most skilled center and Shaq is the most dominant..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWUIZqoNr4Q&feature=related
(wish I could embed, top 3 are classic)

 

[gr8]

assist


He was a BEAST

 

[FJP]

Up there. top 5 but I dont put him above Shaq. As good as he was, the Dream didnt make the Rockets auto contenders every year. From 95-05 ANY team Shaq was a contender for the title. Teams change gameplans for Hakeem. Teams changed their ROSTER for Shaq. Bulls started having 4 Centers on the team just for extra fouls on Shaq in the playoffs. Dream owned Shaq head up but thats the thing we talking about OVERALL, Shaq was WAY more dominant. Skills wise of course dream had more but cats need to stop acting like Shaq was just dunks..

 

[jdc12]

# 9 All-Time regardless of position

# 4 Center All-Time

 

[H.Clarke]

assist


He was a BEAST

thanks for assist...

Damn them some good memories for HTown

 

[Big Tex]

Up there. top 5 but I dont put him above Shaq. As good as he was, the Dream didnt make the Rockets auto contenders every year. From 95-05 ANY team Shaq was a contender for the title. Teams change gameplans for Hakeem. Teams changed their ROSTER for Shaq. Bulls started having 4 Centers on the team just for extra fouls on Shaq in the playoffs. Dream owned Shaq head up but thats the thing we talking about OVERALL, Shaq was WAY more dominant. Skills wise of course dream had more but cats need to stop acting like Shaq was just dunks..

Man, look who Shaq had to play with his whole career...

Started out with Penny Hardaway, then Kobe, then Dwayne Wade, then Nash and Stoudemire, then LeBron.


Dream had Bobby Joe Reid, Allen Leavell, and Buck Johnson



Then eventually Clyde, Barkley, and Pippen at the end of their careers.

 

[FJP]

Man, look who Shaq had to play with his whole career...

Started out with Penny Hardaway, then Kobe, then Dwayne Wade, then Nash and Stoudemire, then LeBron.


Dream had Bobby Joe Reid, Allen Leavell, and Buck Johnson



Then eventually Clyde, Barkley, and Pippen at the end of their careers.

Yeah but Shaq HIMSELF was the most dominant by a mile, not his teammates

 

[gr8]

Man, look who Shaq had to play with his whole career...

Started out with Penny Hardaway, then Kobe, then Dwayne Wade, then Nash and Stoudemire, then LeBron.


Dream had Bobby Joe Reid, Allen Leavell, and Buck Johnson



Then eventually Clyde, Barkley, and Pippen at the end of their careers.

Fixed:

Started out with Ralph Sampson, then Drexler, Barkley and Pippen.

If Shaq would have played with a Sampson/David Robinson type talent in his FIRST few years...MAN PLEASE, that Beast would have been kicked out of the damn league for assault

 

[H.Clarke]

Up there. top 5 but I dont put him above Shaq. As good as he was, the Dream didnt make the Rockets auto contenders every year. From 95-05 ANY team Shaq was a contender for the title. Teams change gameplans for Hakeem. Teams changed their ROSTER for Shaq. Bulls started having 4 Centers on the team just for extra fouls on Shaq in the playoffs. Dream owned Shaq head up but thats the thing we talking about OVERALL, Shaq was WAY more dominant. Skills wise of course dream had more but cats need to stop acting like Shaq was just dunks..

From Dreams rookie year in 84 thru 1997 rockets only missed playoffs one year (with a 42-40) and where never under .500.. they made noise in playoffs reaching finals 3 times, and losing in conference finals once, and semifinals 3 times

Is this not 13 years of contending?in a tough ass west.. with Magic, Worthy, Jabbar, then Stockton & Malone, the Sonics (Dale Ellis team then GP's), the Spurs(Robinson then came Duncan), and Clyde's Trailblazers, Barkley's Suns

let's not forget shaq played with penny, kobe, dwade... Dream played with Mith Wiggins, Lou Lloyd, Otis Thorpe & Mad Max (my niggas).. when Horry and Cassell came, then Drex.. Dream gets 2 rings (thanks for taking that break MJ)

But we agree Shaq is most Dominant of our time, Hakeem most skilled (by far)

 

[Big Tex]

Fixed:

Started out with Ralph Sampson, then Drexler, Barkley and Pippen.

If Shaq would have played with a Sampson/David Robinson type talent in his FIRST few years...MAN PLEASE, that Beast would have been kicked out of the damn league for assault

Dream had Ralph for two seasons then didn't get Clyde until AFTER he won a ring.

Dream won a ring with Otis Thorpe as his second best player.

 

[H.Clarke]

Hakeem Abdul Olajwuon is the most skilled big man of our time.. Two Quadruple Doubles in the same month!!!

http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Records/quaddouble.html
03/03/90 Houston vs Golden State Hakeem Olajuwon 29 pts. 18 rebs. 10 asst. 11 blks.
03/29/90 Houston vs Milwaukee Hakeem Olajuwon 18 pts. 16 rebs. 10 asst. 11 blks.

 

[Blunt]

Started out with Ralph Sampson, ,,,

One of the biggest busts in NBA history.

then Drexler, Barkley and Pippen.

All on the downside of their careers.

 

[H.Clarke]

Fixed:

Started out with Ralph Sampson, then Drexler, Barkley and Pippen.

If Shaq would have played with a Sampson/David Robinson type talent in his FIRST few years...MAN PLEASE, that Beast would have been kicked out of the damn league for assault

Akeem and Ralph beat Magic & Jabbar's Lakers and Lost to a legendary Celtics squad (Bird, Mchale, Parrish, DJ etc)

but not without a good ass old school brawl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLztLLPjyjY
(assist please)

 

[Llano]

Shaq was a beast but he had limitations if you took him away from the basket. It benefited Shaq to play with perimeter players like Hardaway, D-Wade & Kobe. If the game's on the line I want Dream in his prime who could knock down free throws, drain seventeen footers and shut down the paint without fouling. Dream had no limitations in his prime. Dude used to knock down 3 pointers when the game was out of reach back the day


When was the last time one player took his team to the finals and won it all without another all star caliber teammate? That would be Dream in the 94 finals against the Knicks. Numbers don't even tell the whole story how he beat the Knicks. The only other player who showed up somewhat in that series was Sam Cassell

 

[gr8]

One of the biggest busts in NBA history.

Bust? ONLY AFTER the injuries, and SEVEN years in he was STILL averaging 16 and 10

"Potential" bust ONLY...

All on the downside of their careers.

Clyde was STILL putting up ALL-Star NUMBERS MAN!
As well as Barkley

 

[gr8]

Shaq was a beast but he had limitations if you took him away from the basket. It benefited Shaq to play with perimeter players like Hardaway, D-Wade & Kobe. If the game's on the line I want Dream in his prime who could knock down free throws, drain seventeen footers and shut down the paint without fouling. Dream had no limitations in his prime. Dude used to knock down 3 pointers when the game was out of reach back the day


When was the last time one player took his team to the finals and won it all without another all star caliber teammate? That would be Dream in the 94 finals against the Knicks. Numbers don't even tell the whole story how he beat the Knicks. The only other player who showed up somewhat in that series was Sam Cassell

Both of those titles have an asterick, although Hakeem WAS the man! No doubt, but his reign as the most dominant was short lived. If you are an NBA GM with Shaq or Hakeem to pick from, KNOWING their futures...hmm, that's still a tough decision, my WHOLE point. His ONLY limitation would be guarding SHAQ...and the videos prove that! He would receive help, FOR SURE...OR FOUL OUT

By the way, who were the All-Star caliber players on the Knicks?

I'll wait...

 

[Blunt]

Bust? ONLY AFTER the injuries, and SEVEN years in he was STILL averaging 16 and 10

He was a #1 OVERALL pick with the hype of the next Jabbar (and a huge ego). He was soft even in his first 3 decent years, and then fell off the earth. Christian Laettner had a comparable career in the long run, and that's not saying much.

"Potential" bust ONLY...

That's what "busts" are.

Clyde was STILL putting up ALL-Star NUMBERS MAN!
As well as Barkley

BOTH over 32 and on the DOWNSIDE, as I said.