I'm sorry to say it but, kobe is better than jordan!!
- Thread starter illwill
- Start date
hello?
you will not get a response
he blatantly quit on a winnable game/series
nothing to argue about
waiting for the stans to come back with some nonsense and still try to say that Kobe is better than Jordan.
i will keep bumping this shit until someone does!
LordSinister, where you at?
Didn't Jordan "quit" on the Bulls for TWO SEASONS!!??!!
(Unless you think he was actually quietly "suspended" for gambling.)
A little thing happened. His father was murdered.
Ok, just as I was about to rebut, I noticed that it was KingTaharqa who'd contradicted himself about the lineage of Dr J --> MJ --> Kobe. You threw me off when you replied to my reply directed at him. That being said, I nor Lord Sinister is saying Kobe is currently above Jordan's entire body of work... But he's not far behind. And I have NO reason to believe he will not surpass Jordan by the time he retires. NO other 'Air Apparent' has been a worthier heir apparent than Kobe. Period.
So??? That didn't stop him from deserting the team to play baseball. He didn't retire from life.
Your posts are well thought out. Can you provide stats to back this up? I just want to see if it can de done.
I was waiting for this response from you. Google to see why he decided to follow that particular dream. You're dumber than I thought if you believe Jordan would've retired to play baseball had his father not been murdered. You're even dumber if you think he was "secretly suspended" for gambling (no, you didn't let us know anything we didn't already know regarding the suspension theory
).
I was waiting for this response from you. Google to see why he decided to follow that particular dream. You're dumber than I thought if you believe Jordan would've retired to play baseball had his father not been murdered. You're even dumber if you think he was "secretly suspended" for gambling (no, you didn't let us know anything we didn't already know regarding the suspension theory
I wasn't even gonna waste my time with that troll
Those days are over
I wasn't even gonna waste my time with that troll
Those days are over
I took that faggot off of my ignore list just so I could be entertained by her bullshit.
And see, there in lies the inherent flaw of the MJ vs Kobe debate. There was much more to Jordan than what can be statistically tracked or recorded. Jordan was not just a basketball player. He was a cultural icon and multi-media phenomenon. Much of his lore is the result of careful PR crafting and league promotion/protection. His stats help to lend credibility to his mystique. But his mystique can be deconstructed... Just like his stats.
Enter: Kobe Bryant. Even having survived a rape case, there is NO active player playing with his clout and commercial bank-ability. His intangibles, like Jordan's, can not be wholly encompassed by his substantial stats. If I may, Ali is not regarded as the GOAT of boxing because he had the best record or most gaudiest stats. It was a plethora of things that set him apart from other boxers in the media and minds of the public.
Every generation has a Michael Jordan. Just like some old heads will say Joe Louis, Jack Johnson or some other legend is the GOAT. Some old heads will argue for Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Dr J etc. There's no tangible way to 'prove' who is the greatest among greats. Rolling out Kobe's stats will not sway someone bent on disparaging him or defending Jordan. This whole debate is steeped more in sentiment than statistics. If you can't already 'see' that Kobe is far and away the most legitimate candidate for GOAT, since the last GOAT, there's nothing more I can 'show' you that will prove that.
all this because some idoit think Kobe is metter than MJ...hmm well the stats all point to MJ as being better... Kobe is a great player..u can say a living legend already but does he make other players on his team better....NO!! MJ made Kerr, Pipen, KoKuc, Horace Grant amoung others. allstars.....mm lets see who has Kobe made better...NOBODY!! when jordan got his 30-35 points Pipen would have 25, kerr 18 , Kukoc 20 , Grant 15 w/15 rb, even Rodman had like 15-20 rebounds......kobe team statline , Kobe 42, Gusol 15 Bynum 10(then fouls out) artest 15, then every one else 5, 7, 8 ..... how can u score 80 something points and still win by what, 18 points LOL!!! BALL HOG!!!
all this means is MJ IS THE BEST!!!! AND KOBE WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN MJ!!
all this means is MJ IS THE BEST!!!! AND KOBE WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN MJ!!
Fam, I respect your posts, but this is a cop out. I didn't think it could be done. You are one of the posters who would be able to do it, if at all possible.
In just replying to your first paragraph, i'm not looking at Jordan's cultural icon status. That's why I want someone to provide stats to back up the claim that Kobe is not far behind (please, someone provide us with the stats to solidify this claim).
Much of his lore? Please explain.
But his mystique can be deconstructed... Just like his stats.
His mystique can be deconstucted, but his stats? Seriously, I just want someone to do this in a convincingly way.
wrong, MFH. completely wrong.
every generation couldn't possibly have a michael jordan. the infra-structure didn't exist.
before nike's media campaigns and merchandising, converse barely scratched the surface with julius erving. so there was no blitz which caused the public to be swayed.
but michael jordan was the tip of the iceberg, not the mountain top.
technological developements with internet, mobile communications, satellite broadcasts, etc., all make it now MORE THAN EVER possible to create and disseminate a myth: tobe.
this was all aided (NOT created) along by the NBA itself; as the number of teams grew, and the amount of talent drastically began to wane, the league understood that it would have to expand globally to increase the draw. so now we have stars instead of teams. the marquee matchup used to be team v. team (celtics v. fakers, celtics v. 76ers) with only RARE attention played to the individual (bill russell v. wilt chamberlain, earvin johnson v. larry bird). now EVERY game is billed as the STAR & teammates v. the other STAR & teammates. ex. yao ming & the rockets v. dwight howard and the magic, carmelo anthony & the nuggets v. kevin durant & the thunder.
it's more proof that today's casual fan doesn't really understand the SPORT of basketball, because it's presented to them as an INDIVIDUAL event, like WWF.
jordan!!
this is the flip side of the non-basketball tobe detractor argument.
ex. tobe sucks because: perceived cocky, perceived arrogant, perceived imitator, infidelity, arrested for sexual assault, etc.
invalid basketball criticisms because they are NON basketball related.
MFH attempted to marginalize michael jordan with NON basketball criticisms.
ex. cultural icon, multi-media phenomenon, lore, etc.
invalid basketball criticisms because they are NON basketball related.
tobe supporters typically aren't able to provide (or even point to) specific examples which illustrate his alleged basketball talents.
you'll often hear nebulous conceptual praise, but never will you get an example to illustrate it.
ex. basketball IQ. i see NUMEROUS mental lapses and mistakes by tobe (not including poor shot selection) EVERY GAME, but tobe stans insist it must be true because other people said so, right?
ex. work ethic. "he works harder than anyone else." in order for an individual to know this, they would have to worked out with him for a sustained period of time. moreover, the same individual would had to have worked out with a broad sample of other players for a sustained period of time. but it must be true because other people say so, right?
this is the flip side of the non-basketball tobe detractor argument.
ex. tobe sucks because: perceived cocky, perceived arrogant, perceived imitator, infidelity, arrested for sexual assault, etc.
invalid basketball criticisms because they are NON basketball related.
MFH attempted to marginalize michael jordan with NON basketball criticisms.
ex. cultural icon, multi-media phenomenon, lore, etc.
invalid basketball criticisms because they are NON basketball related.
tobe supporters typically aren't able to provide (or even point to) specific examples which illustrate his alleged basketball talents.
you'll often hear nebulous conceptual praise, but never will you get an example to illustrate it.
ex. basketball IQ. i see NUMEROUS mental lapses and mistakes by tobe (not including poor shot selection) EVERY GAME, but tobe stans insist it must be true because other people said so, right?
ex. work ethic. "he works harder than anyone else." in order for an individual to know this, they would have to worked out with him for a sustained period of time. moreover, the same individual would had to have worked out with a broad sample of other players for a sustained period of time. but it must be true because other people say so, right?
So in other words, he "quit" on his team in order to pursue a selfish (and silly) "dream." That's exactly what I said.
You can justify it any way you want. Fact is, he did quit on his team. His decision was fine with me (and his reason really doesn't matter), but just don't use Kobe's quitting in ONE game as some sort of barometer of failure when Jordan did something much more bizarre (and far more selfish).
Re: jordan!!
Co-sign
No one is going to be able to back up Kobe being just as great, or greater than Jordan with cold hard STATS. It would be impressive if it were to happen, but it's just not possible imo. Anyone?
Co-sign
No one is going to be able to back up Kobe being just as great, or greater than Jordan with cold hard STATS. It would be impressive if it were to happen, but it's just not possible imo. Anyone?
"no mas" doesn't quite equate to heart of a champion. what happened to the alleged world's best basketball player and his ability to score at will on anyone, anytime? what happened to the garden weasel, who could will his team to victory at any given time?
how did the no-D phoenix suns defeat a team that supposedly had the best player in the world in the starting lineup?
where is the franchise player who could put his team on his back and carry them past the first round?
people claim they see michael jordan, but what they really have is more like reggie miller.
Re: jordan!!
and i don't want it to seem as though i'm coming down especially hard on MFH.
the member that uses that tactic (marginalizing michael jordan by referring to mostly non basketball related criticisms he discovered in the jordan rules) the most is supremodivino, who now uses another username.
and i don't want it to seem as though i'm coming down especially hard on MFH.
the member that uses that tactic (marginalizing michael jordan by referring to mostly non basketball related criticisms he discovered in the jordan rules) the most is supremodivino, who now uses another username.
Re: jordan!!
Yeah, I respect Ming posts, but I think the Kobe backers on this issue are making an argument not based on fact.
What sn does supremodivino go by now?
Yeah, I respect Ming posts, but I think the Kobe backers on this issue are making an argument not based on fact.
What sn does supremodivino go by now?
Re: jordan!!
i don't know. some other bullshit like getmoney, or iwannaberich, or howimadeamillion, or something along those lines.
i don't know. some other bullshit like getmoney, or iwannaberich, or howimadeamillion, or something along those lines.
Damn I'm glad I fought temptation and stayed out this argument
Re: jordan!!
I remember a similar thread to this one a couple years ago, and he was going at what he thought were Kobe haters. As you know, i'm a fan of Kobe. He just assumed I was a KB hater because I was typing as I am here. I just don't feel he's better than MJ.
I remember a similar thread to this one a couple years ago, and he was going at what he thought were Kobe haters. As you know, i'm a fan of Kobe. He just assumed I was a KB hater because I was typing as I am here. I just don't feel he's better than MJ.
you are a fuckin idiot. jordan retired you numbskull. the season was already fuckin over. Kobe quit in the middle of a fuckin game... a fuckin series to prove a fuckin point... a selfish point. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that?
you try to come off as intelligent when in reality you are nothing more than a complete ignoramus. you are a fuckin loser and you fail at life. you pathetic sniveling douche bag. If i had my way you would come to NYC. I need a new sparring partner. god knows I would crack your fuckin ribs.
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"no mas" doesn't quite equate to heart of a champion. what happened to the alleged world's best basketball player and his ability to score at will on anyone, anytime? what happened to the garden weasel, who could will his team to victory at any given time?
how did the no-D phoenix suns defeat a team that supposedly had the best player in the world in the starting lineup?
where is the franchise player who could put his team on his back and carry them past the first round?
people claim they see michael jordan, but what they really have is more like reggie miller.
to be fair reggie never quit on the pacers. that dude played his heart out. especially against rivals such as the knicks.
I posted statistical evidence that points contrary to your beliefs man, I noticed you ignored them.
Also, you are beating a dead horse. I admit Kobe is not there yet, but, I don't yell at his bitch ass as much as I did.
Maybe if you looked at the other players (Lamar Kardasian, for example0 You can see where he sometimes falls back into bad habits. But, the last game where the team stood up, look at his numbers. The old Kobe would have insisted on having 30 points. This one lead the team in assists. You never point to games like this.
Just like you never point out the times he carried the Lakers when Snaq had a hangin toenail, or the clap, or a case of the "Idon'tgiveafuckaboutanybodybutmesoI'mnotplayinguntilplayoffs"
"no mas" doesn't quite equate to heart of a champion. what happened to the alleged world's best basketball player and his ability to score at will on anyone, anytime? what happened to the garden weasel, who could will his team to victory at any given time?
how did the no-D phoenix suns defeat a team that supposedly had the best player in the world in the starting lineup?
where is the franchise player who could put his team on his back and carry them past the first round?
people claim they see michael jordan, but what they really have is more like reggie miller.
Remeber when Jordan went off against Boston? Did the Bulls win that series? So, he could have gone off and they still would not have beaten the Suns.
As a basketball fan, you know the formula for beating the suns back then. Tempo and inside game. It worked for 3 games. The Lakers had no business being that close.
So, if he had jacked it up, and lost you would have crucified him for shooting them out of a lost game. He tried to pass, his "team" was exposed without an inside presence and they lost.
Look at the season games to see this:
Game 1 39 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists on 50% shooting in a loss
Game 2 37 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists on a "jack fest" 37% Loss
Game 3 51 points, 5, rebounds, 3 assists 58% shooting in a loss
game 4, no Nash, no Amare, Lakers win. Kobe 43, 8, 5 on 39% shooting.
It's funny how you guys never use these FACTS.
42.3 PPG
4.7 RPG
3.0 APG
48.3% FG
ended in 3 crushing losses. You cannot beat a run and Gun team with more firepower than you by shooting. When they got off to a shitty start in game 7, it was a done deal.
link?
maybe i missed your post. let me take a look at it.
1st, i am not a player watcher (for good or bad). i watch the entire game, on both sides of the ball.
2nd, though i generally speak favorably of lamar odom, i am not a fan of his. SPORTS board regulars will remember that for YEARS i have clowned him for being a pot head. doesn't mean i can't see what he brings to the table. same goes for pau gasol.
3rd, nobody falsely claims that lamar odom is the best player in the game. nobody falsely claims that lamar odom has equalled or surpassed michael jordan. so there is no need to refute those false claims.
players who are said to be "greatest ________" or "best __________" automatically are subject to scrutiny. and the simple truth is that tobe doesn't pass muster on many (if any) levels.
of course not. you're suggesting that people praise a professional for SOMETIMES exhibiting a characteristic that COLLEGE players learn to do EVERY game. that's like rewarding a grown person for SOMETIMES wiping their ass after using the toilet.
playing EVEN in a game does not equal carrying. if a player plays PISS POOR for half the game, and plays well the 2nd half, that's not carrying a team. if you plunge a knife 6" into your own team's back, you can't pull it out 4" and expect them to be thankful.
this right here is nonsense.
1st, because you're forming your opinion based on hypothetical.
2nd, we both watched michael jordan compete. the bulls may have lost, but michael jordan went down swinging. "i would rather die on my feet than surrender on my knees."
IF it were true, i would have been critical. another hypothetical.
but the FACT is, he put his tail between his legs and showed no heart.
jordan!!
i separated this part from the rest, because frankly, this is BENEATH you. even as a fakers fan this is BENEATH you.
we were discussing a specific playoff series and you retreat to regular season games. why?
you could have easily brought up game 1 where the fakers lost by 5 on the road, but you didn't. is that because lamar odom outplayed the garden weasel? is it because the coffee black mamba shot 33% from the floor?
you could have easily cited game 3 where the fakers won at home by 7, but you didn't. is that because the fakers proved they could carry tobe, who again shot only 33%? while william parker went 9-16 FGAs? that proved the fakers could win without the fragile primadonna being the leading scorer?
you could have easily cited game 4 where the fakers won at home by 1, but you didn't. is it because tobe rationed himself to only 16 FGAs and the fakers proved AGAIN that they could win with a TEAM concept? but that couldn't last very long, could it?
because just like what happened with coach tomjanovich, the gloryhound couldn't stand for people to see that the king wasn't wearing any clothes. we saw the chucker supreme throw up 35 shots and drop 50 in a loss, didn't we?
i separated this part from the rest, because frankly, this is BENEATH you. even as a fakers fan this is BENEATH you.
we were discussing a specific playoff series and you retreat to regular season games. why?
you could have easily brought up game 1 where the fakers lost by 5 on the road, but you didn't. is that because lamar odom outplayed the garden weasel? is it because the coffee black mamba shot 33% from the floor?
you could have easily cited game 3 where the fakers won at home by 7, but you didn't. is that because the fakers proved they could carry tobe, who again shot only 33%? while william parker went 9-16 FGAs? that proved the fakers could win without the fragile primadonna being the leading scorer?
you could have easily cited game 4 where the fakers won at home by 1, but you didn't. is it because tobe rationed himself to only 16 FGAs and the fakers proved AGAIN that they could win with a TEAM concept? but that couldn't last very long, could it?
because just like what happened with coach tomjanovich, the gloryhound couldn't stand for people to see that the king wasn't wearing any clothes. we saw the chucker supreme throw up 35 shots and drop 50 in a loss, didn't we?
I was waiting for this response from you. Google to see why he decided to follow that particular dream. You're dumber than I thought if you believe Jordan would've retired to play baseball had his father not been murdered. You're even dumber if you think he was "secretly suspended" for gambling (no, you didn't let us know anything we didn't already know regarding the suspension theory
don't even waste your time on that line of argument. Quitting IN the middle of a series while playing the game, and following your father's dream are two entirely different things for those who actually see things objectively, and aren't throwing things out there to derail a point.
Jordan went down gunning, and he still lost. it wasn't until he evolved that he started to win.
Jordan was an ass to his teammates. A complete ass. he kept the knife in their backs, and throats. How many years did he gun before they won it all?
The fact that you refuse to budge a little bit, or even give credit where credit is due is my problem with this argument. You guys put MJ on mount Olympus and Kobe and the Lakers in the gutter.
Even though Blunt went into the gutter about the father comments, Kobe played with his life on the line and excelled. Does that mean Kobe is more of a competitor? Fuck no, different people.
Faced with an unwindable game, he bitched some, but he also tried to keep running the O. The stats I posted backed up this fact. 3 huge games with individual efforts resulted in 3 ass whoopings. It would not have mattered and you know it.
Kobe's 81 in a win mean nothing in this thread
Mike 63 in a loss mean everything
Kool.
If he gets 7, the media will crown him and the Lakers king and i wont say shit.
If he doesn't get to 6, I will never say he's better than Mike, but right now, he's close. Closer than anyone else.
Kobe had more of a reason to "quit" in a series (to make a point about a lack of support) than Jordan did for TWO seasons to go play a game he had no business playing, while abandoning the team (and sport) that gave him everything.
Please don't pretend Jordan's departure was about some high-minded principles. He was on a pure ego trip (just like his reckless gambling and other vices). Dude actually thinks he can play golf too.
Fact is, he DESERTED his team (and then used his stature to come back like it was the most natural thing in the world to do). Period. Totally selfish to the core (as was his later, pointless return with Washington).
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Re: jordan!!
This is quite relevant. this was the de-facto way the Lakers were playing. jacking the ball didn't work!! So your argument is based on he quit cause he didn't jack it up? That is beneath you.
I posted facts from the season to establish precedent.
You had no counter FACTS to disprove my arguments.
You have the Nerve to post 1 game where Smush parker showed up. You didn't mention the fact that THAT bitch Ninja shot .333 for the series.
You only talk about 1 game. So kobe should have put his faith in Smush?
Why?
No one else ever has or ever will. The Bum is out of the League.
Matter of fact cranrab, the only Laker that shot a better percentage for the series was Kwame Brown. maybe Kobe should have put all hope and trust in him?
You know what? He put more into that Bitch than Mike "Kwame you Flaming Faggot" Jordan ever did and the kid actually came through a few times.
Cuzz, he led the team in points, Assists and was second to a ninja that was only dunking in FG%
You really need to stop with the hate and tell the truth. That team sneaked into the playoffs as a seventh seed with an WNBA roster and took the Suns to 7
I already posted the cold hard stats of the "players" on that team.
Only 1 player on that Laker team (besides ratboy) is logging significant minutes in the NBA right now.
But Jordan played with pure shit and did more?
Ha. If it were Kobe on the Bulls, you'd throw around the fact that he played with the Iceman, Or Orlando, Or Oakley, or Paxton and couldn't win a playoff series or better yet, get that team to .500
Right now we are not arguing who's the best player. I have already said, and will continue to say it's Jordan.
This is about the fact that you just hate that boy.
And that is beneath you. Obviously, you have knowledge of the game, and a bias against the Lakers.
That's cool. I hate Boston.
Not just the Celtics, but the RedSox, Patriots baked beans and MIT.
But I will admit the truth: Bill Russell is the best basketball TEAM player ever.
Larry Bird shit on Ninjas in the past and would do it right now.
Ted Williams is the best pure hitter ever
I have yet to see you give him an ounce of credit for anything B-Ball related.
US wins Gold medal with Kobe on the team, he did nothing they won despite him
Lakers win Tittle? Pau Gasol (A Euro softie) carried him.
Seek help homie, it's not even funny anymore.
This is quite relevant. this was the de-facto way the Lakers were playing. jacking the ball didn't work!! So your argument is based on he quit cause he didn't jack it up?
That is beneath you. I posted facts from the season to establish precedent.
You had no counter FACTS to disprove my arguments.
You have the Nerve to post 1 game where Smush parker showed up. You didn't mention the fact that THAT bitch Ninja shot .333 for the series.
You only talk about 1 game. So kobe should have put his faith in Smush?
Why?
No one else ever has or ever will. The Bum is out of the League.
Matter of fact cranrab, the only Laker that shot a better percentage for the series was Kwame Brown. maybe Kobe should have put all hope and trust in him?
You know what? He put more into that Bitch than Mike "Kwame you Flaming Faggot" Jordan ever did and the kid actually came through a few times.
Cuzz, he led the team in points, Assists and was second to a ninja that was only dunking in FG%
You really need to stop with the hate and tell the truth. That team sneaked into the playoffs as a seventh seed with an WNBA roster and took the Suns to 7
I already posted the cold hard stats of the "players" on that team.
Only 1 player on that Laker team (besides ratboy) is logging significant minutes in the NBA right now.
But Jordan played with pure shit and did more?
Ha. If it were Kobe on the Bulls, you'd throw around the fact that he played with the Iceman, Or Orlando, Or Oakley, or Paxton and couldn't win a playoff series or better yet, get that team to .500
Right now we are not arguing who's the best player. I have already said, and will continue to say it's Jordan.
This is about the fact that you just hate that boy.
And that is beneath you. Obviously, you have knowledge of the game, and a bias against the Lakers.
That's cool. I hate Boston.
Not just the Celtics, but the RedSox, Patriots baked beans and MIT.
But I will admit the truth: Bill Russell is the best basketball TEAM player ever.
Larry Bird shit on Ninjas in the past and would do it right now.
Ted Williams is the best pure hitter ever
I have yet to see you give him an ounce of credit for anything B-Ball related.
US wins Gold medal with Kobe on the team, he did nothing they won despite him
Lakers win Tittle? Pau Gasol (A Euro softie) carried him.
Seek help homie, it's not even funny anymore.
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