one player's impact
- Thread starter cranrab
- Start date
Defintitely. And in every team sport, 1 player can and will have either a positive or negative impact on the TEAM'S outcome. And it could be offense or defense
..ask John Starks.
Starks performance helped the Knicks lose the NBA Title, but his performance (offensive AND defensive) helped the Knicks reach that point to begin with
I think the question deals more with one particular performance on an ongoing basis. Like over the course of a season
I voted that one player can win a game as well as lose one
Obvioulsy you need the rest of your team or you will be playing the whole other team by yourself but sometimes when a player takes over the game it seems like that anyway
Then you can lose the game too...take the Carolina Panthers in the playoffs this year, jake the snake lost that game for them point blank period
Obvioulsy you need the rest of your team or you will be playing the whole other team by yourself but sometimes when a player takes over the game it seems like that anyway
Then you can lose the game too...take the Carolina Panthers in the playoffs this year, jake the snake lost that game for them point blank period
thanks for the explanation.
now if we can get cclowlow to come out of lurkdom to expound on his/her vote.
was it a basic subscription to the good sportsmanship mantra? or something else?
and just wanted to point out that all 7 votes so far have fallen to the extremes. no takers on the middle choices.
The best example is the first game in the Final Four between Mich St. and UConn. The point guard kept driving to the basket late in the game trying to be the hero and failed. A few folks watching with me agreed that he lost them the game. I do believe a player can win a game alone but most times it takes a team to do it.
this mention of time is important, because it lends a notion of import to the concept of buzzer beaters and last second shots. in the case of your example it implies a period of time over which a player is alleged to have played at a substandard level.
good.
now suppose earlier in the game, the same player had played well. would his late performance then merely counter-balance his earlier performance, or is the endgame weighed more heavily in your example?
i voted 1 can win and can lose.
when the black mamba hit that game winning shot against the suns in 2006...he won that game.
when the black mamba hit that game winning shot against the suns in 2006...he won that game.
glass half full half empty argument. the same can be said in reverse.
you're jumping ahead. first we have to establish whether or not johnny2clips adheres to the importance of WHEN.
if he does, THEN we can proceed with the opposite.
first things first, young man. we are getting at the root of something, and this is why i created this poll.
I think it would all lay onto the impact it had. Playing well in the beginning could be great but not using your team in the end is harmful. Sometimes a true leader must place their team in front of their self in order to do the right thing.
So I would have to say that the endgame weighed more heavily because his impact late in the game was of the wrong choice and cost his team a chance to reach the championship game.
thanks for returning to shed more light on your answer.
SVT alluded to a similar, but opposite scenario which heavily weighs the endgame. that scenario is commonly known as "goat becomes the hero". specifically, when a player has initially played poorly, but has a noteworthy or memorable finish.
is it safe to say that from your perspective, a POSITIVE impact late in the game erases or overshadows otherwise previous POOR play?
It could in some cases. Some of the greatest players have done it and I truly believe if you know you can put the team on your back while not making an errors, you can erase your mistakes from the beginning by showing you learned from them.
interesting take.
for the record, i do NOT weigh moments/episodes in a game more heavily. for example, if a basketball player heaves in a half court shot to end the first half, AND his team ends up winning by 1 point, how do you assign more (or less) value to the lucky toss than the final FG or FT?
i wouldn't.
instead, i find that it is most pragmatic to measure player performance OVERALL for contributions made to team success.
for example: many people remember robert horry's memorable crucial G4 buzzer beater, but how many people remember that he shot GAME high 71.4% FGAs that game, including 60% 3FGAs from behind the arc? robert horry also lead the fakers in FT% (83.3%) and assists, and was the GAME's 2nd leading rebounder behind only shaquille o'neal. so with those facts in mind, which is MORE important? the buzzer beater, or the tremendous game robert horry had?
no contest, right?
another example: many people remember derek fisher's memorable crucial G5 buzzer beater, but how many people remember that he came in OFF THE BENCH and shot better than STARTERS gary payton, karl malone, and tobe? he also outscored both starters gary payton and karl malone even though they both played at least 15 minutes MORE than derek fisher did.
IMO, the buzzer beater by itself is not more important than overall game play.
cranrab i see where u coming from BUT....at the end of the day the game winning shots over cloud all the other 47 minutes.
like all those stats you said about horry and fisher...i had no idea about....i just remember that exact moment.
like all those stats you said about horry and fisher...i had no idea about....i just remember that exact moment.
I really meant to click on can't and can't.
Based in a few comments you've made on the main board, I figured where this was going...interesting thread..
noted.
can you provide some insight into your choice?
was it a basic subscription to the good sportsmanship mantra? or something else?
your vote?
IMO, a player can win and can lose a game in team sports. doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. and it isn't a last second make or miss that determines it. it is overall game play.
another example: boston college v. miami in the orange bowl. was it doug flutie's hail mary or overall game? same could be asked of bernie kosar.
better example: duke v. kentucky in 1992 ncaa tournament. christian laettner's buzzer beater, or the fact that he went 10-10 FGAs in the game AND 10-10 FTAs for a game high 31?
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u can't have it both ways.
cause grant hill had to make that pass.
but i understand
cause grant hill had to make that pass.
but i understand
Alright, I'll break it down real quick. A buzzer beater could erase a bad game you had but it all depends on what you were doing. If you went 3-15 without less than 3 assists, I think the buzzer beater would mean anything if your team felt you weren't trying to win as a team but with yourself i.e. Mich St. vs. UConn. We were watching and the point guard was speeding down the court into a sea of green without even looking to pass. So I think it could go either way and what you win and lose.
definitely not. i'm in the camp that says the buzzer beater was nothing exceptional. i'm in the camp that says christian laettner had a remarkable shooting GAME.
more importantly, i'm in the camp that's wondering why people make such a fuss (or draw so much attention) over the finish in comparison to the overall performance which included a great OT.
and let's explore the other side of the coin: LOSING.
example: superbowl 25, giants v. bills
buffalo bills fans remember that scott norwood missed (choked?) a 47 yard FGA which would have won the game, but he missed. does scott norwood deserve the blame as the goat of the game? or does the buffalo D deserve a good share of the blame for not being able to get the giants O off the field?
for those that don't remember, the giants had the ball for slightly more than TWO-THIRDS of the game!
or should coach levy take the blame because he brought scott norwood out for the FGA even though he knew scott norwood was only kicking 60% on the year from that distance?
example: superbowl 25, giants v. bills
buffalo bills fans remember that scott norwood missed (choked?) a 47 yard FGA which would have won the game, but he missed. does scott norwood deserve the blame as the goat of the game? or does the buffalo D deserve a good share of the blame for not being able to get the giants O off the field?
for those that don't remember, the giants had the ball for slightly more than TWO-THIRDS of the game!
or should coach levy take the blame because he brought scott norwood out for the FGA even though he knew scott norwood was only kicking 60% on the year from that distance?
in my book, a buzzer beater cannot erase previous bad play, nor can a missed attempt erase previous good play (see scott norwood example above). from my perspective, the performance has to be rated on the whole.
I voted one player can win a game/one player can lose a game... and I've thought more about that since your other posts on the main board. We do tend to glorify the last second shot as if that 2 or 3 point shot has more value than the other points made throughout the rest of the game.
I think in some cases those change because it is different sports. More blame can be shed on a defense or a kicker. If Kobe hits a buzzer beater in the Finals but had a bad game, people will remember the buzzer beater. It's sad but it's true.
i'm enjoying this thread immensely, because people are thinking, participating and contributing varied opinions.
the quote above by J2C touches on an important reality. that the odd focus of people's memories can result in sad versions of history, which in turn serve to distort and dilute individual perceptions of reality. this occurs not only as a result of last second makes or misses, but also during random moments!
example: G2 of the 1990-91 NBA finals. michael jordan is remembered for scoring a FG that was dubbed "the move" where he switched the ball from his right hand to his left hand in the air and put the ball in off the glass. the public for some strange reason chooses to remember that rather unspectacular move, but curiously forgets the more important and impressive fact: that made FGA was michael jordan's 13th consecutive made FG.
not trying to single out any BGOL members, but here are some examples of people who have bizarre memories of history, and have allowed those false memories to distort their reality:
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=5843137&postcount=130
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=5841618&postcount=51
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=5841670&postcount=52
proof which refutes their ludicrous claims:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21EzxZs6C8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcJ_pnFyvMw
if you don't want to watch the video proof, here is proof in text:
Wherever Johnson went, he was hounded by Jordan and Pippen, who combined to pressure his every step and harassed him into 22 turnovers.
and
Jackson had Jordan guarding Johnson, with relief help from Pippen.
and this gives insight as to where the myth originated in their obviously faulty minds:
The Bulls also discovered a defensive stopper in Pippen, who switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19901991.html
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=5843137&postcount=130
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=5841618&postcount=51
http://www.bgol.us/board/showpost.php?p=5841670&postcount=52
proof which refutes their ludicrous claims:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21EzxZs6C8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcJ_pnFyvMw
if you don't want to watch the video proof, here is proof in text:
Wherever Johnson went, he was hounded by Jordan and Pippen, who combined to pressure his every step and harassed him into 22 turnovers.
and
Jackson had Jordan guarding Johnson, with relief help from Pippen.
and this gives insight as to where the myth originated in their obviously faulty minds:
The Bulls also discovered a defensive stopper in Pippen, who switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19901991.html
You would taint an interesting thread with MORE propaganda Cranrab.
This would've been an interesting discussion, had you simply moderated it.
But I knew it was coming eventually. You couldn't wait to "done the [red and black] cape could ya?"
But I voted "NO" for the sake of baseball, the ultimate "team sport" of the majors.
Baseball.
As for your original question: "IN TEAM SPORTS, is it possible for 1 player's performance to dictate the outcome?"
Hell yeah it's possible.
Of course it is: especially if you're talking instances.
And I would even argue that every single game is impacted by a single player's performance.
But a single player's performance has the slightest affect in baseball.
The ultimate, and more respectable "team sport."
This would've been an interesting discussion, had you simply moderated it.
But I knew it was coming eventually. You couldn't wait to "done the [red and black] cape could ya?"
But I voted "NO" for the sake of baseball, the ultimate "team sport" of the majors.
Baseball.
As for your original question: "IN TEAM SPORTS, is it possible for 1 player's performance to dictate the outcome?"
Hell yeah it's possible.
Of course it is: especially if you're talking instances.
And I would even argue that every single game is impacted by a single player's performance.
But a single player's performance has the slightest affect in baseball.
The ultimate, and more respectable "team sport."
your convoluted thinking is astonishing. "red and black" cape? really? if that wasn't so wildly off base, it would be amusing. instead, it's just sad.
in this thread, i gave specific examples from NCAA football, NCAA basketball, the NBA and the NFL.
in this thread, i explored winning scenarios, losing scenarios, and moments in between.
what did you bring to the table? as usual, NOTHING. no specifics, just a vague reference to baseball.
if you have something to say, then put it out here.
EDIT: i see what happened. one of your other screennames was 1 of the dudes who "believed" that scottie pippen checked earvin johnson in the finals and you got heated.
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for clarity's sake, you cast a vote for "CAN'T win a game, CAN lose a game". "NO" was not an option in this poll.
and as you pointed out, but apparently couldn't reconcile the difference between the two, i asked about 1 player's performance dictating the outcome, not whether or not a game is impacted by a single player.
ok cranrab what about adam vinatari(sp) FG in the superbowl and AFC championship game
he misses we might not ever be talking about tom brady.
baseball....if greg buckner would have not made that error....would we ever be talking about him? and boston wins a world series?
u can't blame the media for only showing THAT moment for THAT game.
he misses we might not ever be talking about tom brady.
baseball....if greg buckner would have not made that error....would we ever be talking about him? and boston wins a world series?
u can't blame the media for only showing THAT moment for THAT game.
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