Can A Code of Morality/Ethics Exist without God?

[keysersoze]

Just thinking, how do the Atheists and Agnostics on this board formulate their thinking on what is moral/ethical or immoral/unethical?

Consider this: Our American laws are slowly moving away from containing any moral underpinning in them (i.e. adultery laws are no longer enforced or removed from State statutes)

Also, Law continues to serve as a substitute for many of the previous moral norms, to the extent that it has co-opted many of the previous notions of immorality and made them illegal (i.e. lying - if done under oath is equal to perjury).

Hence in our society, we rarely face "moral/ethical" choices since we automatically try to view them from a legal perspective (i.e. lying = fraud or perjury).

Thus the question: How do atheists and agnostics formulate a moral/ethical code to guide themselves in a society where morality/ethics are are replaced by the force of law?

For those who believe in God, morality/ethics comes from God since its his universal code of human behavior.

For Agnostics: I think they believe in a moral/ethical code since they believe in a God but just as the existence of God cannot be know, do they also believe that a moral/ethical code cannot be know or what specifically it provides (correct me if I'm wrong on this assumption of Agnostics). What are the Agnostics on this board's moral/ethical code? Do you have one & where is its source/rationale from?

For Atheists, do you believe morality/ethics exists? If so, where do you find your source of moral/ethical guidance? Do you believe that its not important in a society where everything is governed by law and much of morality has been co-opted by law?

 

[Varis]

how can you talk about morals on a porn board

 

[freakd]

your word as a man or a woman or an adult doesn't have anything to do with god. it's about character or the lack there of.

 

[keysersoze]

how can you talk about morals on a porn board

How can you have a serious discussion about politics on BGOL? Yet we still have them, right?

 

[PLASMA CANNON]

Uuuh!!! Yea

 

[berry984]

..........No

 

[Legacyns]

I'll do you one better.. they existed before god..

Excerpt from The Quest for Moral Foundations: An Introduction to Ethics By Montague Brown

Before getting into specific arguments for cultural relativism, let us consider the relation between religion, which has traditionally been the defining mark of a culture, and ethics. The idea that moral responsibility depends on religion is very popular at the moment. When moral issues come up in public discourse, one constantly hears it said that religion must be kept out of politics. The obvious implication is thar morality is a religious matter and therefore not to be legislated.

This connection between religion & morality is a natural enough one to make. For one thing, most religions have an ethical component. For another, if one believes in religion of creation, it makes perfect sense to say that God, who made everything, also made moral obligation.

However, while the connection between religion & morality may be a natural one to make, the claim that morality is merely a matter of religious conviction seems to make no sense at all. It seems perfectly absurd to say that the willing killing of an innocent five-year old child is not wrong for an atheist, who does not believe in the Old Testament with its ten commandments.

Not only is the claim that ethics is merely a matter of religion absurd in itself, but even the scriptures themselves deny such a claim. For example, in the OT book of Amos, God punishes the pagans because they do inhumane actions such as betraying their allies, attacking their neighbors w/o a just cause, & killing women & children in war. They are accounted as w/o excuse, even though they do not have revelation. St. Paul, in his letter to the Romans, insists that the pagans have access to moral norms even though they are w/o law. "When Gentiles who have not law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law unto themselves, even though they do not have the law.

They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them..." And it has been the constant teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that moral obligation is based on natural law immediately available to every human being though reason and conscience.

How, then, did we arrive at the point where so many people, religious & nonreligious, think that morality is a matter of faith? Part of is has to do with secular trends accompanying the rise of the scientific method, which I shall discuss later, but part of it has to do with the trends which developed within the relgiion itself. Radical fundamentalism had always been an option in the revealed religions. If God is creator, then everything depends on God. Some have interpreted this as meaning that there is really nothing in the created world which has any order and integrity of its own, and that natural reason is hopelessly inadequate to know what is true & good.

 

[Dert Bagg]

how can you talk about morals on a porn board

What's immoral about porn?

 

[DaleMabry]

Philosophy and religion are not the same thing. The quest for Truth and Morality need not have a Great Deity behind it threatening to kick yo' ass if you don't tow the line.

In fact, I find it more courageous to strive for Truth and Morality without doing so out of fear of Divine Reprisal if you don't.

"Momma...is God just another cop / Waiting to beat my ass if I don't go pop?"

-Tupac Shakur RIP............

 

[peterlongshort]

Moral code is not derived from God. The Romans were Poly-theists, yet they had a moral code. The Japanese are atheists, they have moral codes. I could go on and on.

Morals are merely a set of shared beliefs. Whose to say whose right and whose wrong.

 

[Yahweh]

Can An Egg Exist Without A Chicken?

Nothing can exist without God.

 

[Young Sir]

Re: Can An Egg Exist WIthout A Chicken?

Nothing can exist without God.

u must be the pope.. pretending to be God..

 

[Dert Bagg]

Re: Can An Egg Exist WIthout A Chicken?

Goddamn! WTF is that smell...

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Can An Egg Exist Without A Chicken?

u must be the pope.. pretending to be God..

The Pope would never dare pretend to be God-- he is merely the Lord's representative on Earth.

The question is "Can morals exist without God."

God asks "Can an egg exist without a chicken?"

God is the source of all.

 

[Logikal]

 

[Varis]

What's immoral about porn?

Im not going to answer that question because then I would be involed in a discusion of morals on a porn board after stating thats something that shouldnt happend.

 

[J Storm]

STAR WARS is filled with a Codes of Morality.. but who is the "GOD" of their universe?

 

[Genocide]

Of course morals exist without a belief in God.

I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion, prayer, the bible, divine intervention, or karma.

However, I do have morals. I believe in the Golden Rule. I treat people like I want to be treated...unless they piss me off.

 

[Dert Bagg]

Im not going to answer that question because then I would be involed in a discusion of morals on a porn board after stating thats something that shouldnt happend.

So then you understand how pointless your post was?

 

[J Storm]

Im not going to answer that question because then I would be involed in a discusion of morals on a porn board after stating thats something that shouldnt happend.

Immorality is based on the perception of the powers that be.

For example. 2000 years ago, a 33 year old man could marry a girl simply because she got on her period.

For example. According to Jewish Law, Eating Pork is a grave sin!!!

 

[Varis]

So then you understand how pointless your post was?

no there is a point , Im just not gonna point it out

 

[Young Sir]

Re: Can An Egg Exist Without A Chicken?

The Pope would never dare pretend to be God-- he is merely the Lord's representative on Earth.

The question is "Can morals exist without God."

God asks "Can an egg exist without a chicken?"

God is the source of all.

lol.. your obvioiusly not God.. if you don't know that the pope believes himself to be God, and has the ability to forgive sin.. the bible says only God has that power.. but I understand that you and the pope don't believe what it says...

 

[Yahweh]

Immorality is based on the perception of the powers that be.

For example. 2000 years ago, a 33 year old man could marry a girl simply because she got on her period.

For example. According to Jewish Law, Eating Pork is a grave sin!!!

Morality is based on God's eternal law.

Morality does not bend to man's ever-changing perspectives.

Don't get Me started on the pork-eaters...

 

[J Storm]

Of course morals exist without a belief in God.

I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion, prayer, the bible, divine intervention, or karma.

However, I do have morals. I believe in the Golden Rule. I treat people like I want to be treated...unless they piss me off.

For the record, the GOLDEN RULE did not originate with JESUS. It originated with TEHUTI but can also be found in the APOCRYPHA BOOK OF TOBIT.

The real saying is "TREAT OTHERS THE WAY THEY WANT TO BE TREATED" Not the way "YOU" want to be treated..
Who ever quoted "Jesus" said it wrong but people still got the message.

 

[Dert Bagg]

no there is a point , Im just not gonna point it out

So explicit moral points are bad.
But implying moral points on porn board are OK?
You shouldn't even be in this thread.

I don't think porn is immoral.
So let me continue with my brethren...

 

[Logikal]

 

[Dert Bagg]

I recommend this book on the subject:

 

[hawk919]

Morality is based on God's eternal law.

Morality does not bend to man's ever-changing perspectives.

Don't get Me started on the pork-eaters...

Jesus said: what you put in your body doesnt defile it, but what comes out of you body defiles it.

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Can An Egg Exist Without A Chicken?

lol.. your obvioiusly not God.. if you don't know that the pope believes himself to be God, and has the ability to forgive sin.. the bible says only God has that power.. but I understand that you and the pope don't believe what it says...

On Earth as it is in heaven, my child.

I established the papacy as a means of ensuring order and virtue on this planet. Now, as the technological era has begun, the Lord speaks to the people directly through the internet. You object that it is "obvioiusly not" possible, but that is because the wickedness of man has blinded you to God's voicw and you believe that is all that there is. Do not doubt that the Lord can speak to you, at any time and through any means, for it is the Truth.

 

[Dallas Bueller]

A long read, but touches on what you're talking about:

Scientist Finds the Beginnings of Morality in Primate Behavior

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Can An Egg Exist Without A Chicken?

Jesus said: what you put in your body doesnt defile it, but what comes out of you body defiles it.

The boy was right about that.

Yet, there is more.

While what comes out of your body can defile it in important ways, what you choose to put into your body is reflective of your respect for that sacred temple. Those who inject heroine into their veins or put the filthy meat of the pig in their mouths will take on the character of that which they have consumed-- it becomes a part of you and that which you do after is influenced by it.

If you are willing to put foul swine in your mouth, you're liable to let any type of nonsense fly out of it.

 

[Genocide]

Re: Can An Egg Exist Without A Chicken?

On Earth as it is in heaven, my child.

I established the papacy as a means of ensuring order and virtue on this planet. Now, as the technological era has begun, the Lord speaks to the people directly through the internet. You object that it is "obvioiusly not" possible, but that is because the wickedness of man has blinded you to God's voicw and you believe that is all that there is. Do not doubt that the Lord can speak to you, at any time and through any means, for it is the Truth.

Thou shalt use spell check.

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Can An Egg Exist Without A Chicken?

Thou shalt use spell check.

The Lord has no need.

 

[SKATTA]

take a trip up the Amazon or peep some vids from aboriginal tribes who has never read a book be it the bible or any other.
ask yourself how do they know about morals/how do they live so peacefully/how do they know to take care/comfort/provide/sheleter their family etc.

our ppl need to revert back to observing nature to find themself.

 

[keysersoze]

I'll do you one better.. they existed before god..

Excerpt from The Quest for Moral Foundations: An Introduction to Ethics By Montague Brown

Before getting into specific arguments for cultural relativism, let us consider the relation between religion, which has traditionally been the defining mark of a culture, and ethics. The idea that moral responsibility depends on religion is very popular at the moment. When moral issues come up in public discourse, one constantly hears it said that religion must be kept out of politics. The obvious implication is thar morality is a religious matter and therefore not to be legislated.

This connection between religion & morality is a natural enough one to make. For one thing, most religions have an ethical component. For another, if one believes in religion of creation, it makes perfect sense to say that God, who made everything, also made moral obligation.

However, while the connection between religion & morality may be a natural one to make, the claim that morality is merely a matter of religious conviction seems to make no sense at all. It seems perfectly absurd to say that the willing killing of an innocent five-year old child is not wrong for an atheist, who does not believe in the Old Testament with its ten commandments.

Not only is the claim that ethics is merely a matter of religion absurd in itself, but even the scriptures themselves deny such a claim. For example, in the OT book of Amos, God punishes the pagans because they do inhumane actions such as betraying their allies, attacking their neighbors w/o a just cause, & killing women & children in war. They are accounted as w/o excuse, even though they do not have revelation. St. Paul, in his letter to the Romans, insists that the pagans have access to moral norms even though they are w/o law. "When Gentiles who have not law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law unto themselves, even though they do not have the law.

They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them..." And it has been the constant teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that moral obligation is based on natural law immediately available to every human being though reason and conscience.

How, then, did we arrive at the point where so many people, religious & nonreligious, think that morality is a matter of faith? Part of is has to do with secular trends accompanying the rise of the scientific method, which I shall discuss later, but part of it has to do with the trends which developed within the relgiion itself. Radical fundamentalism had always been an option in the revealed religions. If God is creator, then everything depends on God. Some have interpreted this as meaning that there is really nothing in the created world which has any order and integrity of its own, and that natural reason is hopelessly inadequate to know what is true & good.

Thanks for the post - I don't think it addresses my questions on what moral/ethical code Atheists and Agnostics have? Where is their source of that code?

My point is different from the author. For instance, I know that moral codes can exists without a God - that society cannot genuinely believe that code of morality to be universal unless they base it in God.

Yes, the Romans had a moral code - so did the Ancient Persians, but both civilizations based it on their Gods as the source of the Code.

Without any concrete basis for God backing an Atheists/Agnostics choice of their moral understanding, can they really say that their code/ethics is universal and should be respected, and hold constant through all time? Or will their ethics/morality change over time?

I'd like those questions discussed/answered from atheists/agnostics.

Of course morals exist without a belief in God.

I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion, prayer, the bible, divine intervention, or karma.

However, I do have morals. I believe in the Golden Rule. I treat people like I want to be treated...unless they piss me off.

Thanks for answering. I assume that your an agnostic.

On your point about the Golden Rule - you'd like to be treated the way that you'd treat people, which I assume as being fair and un-prejudiced right?

I'd like to pose an hypothetical situation to you:

2 people of consenting age decide to have sex...


The only catch is that they are related. A mother aged 45 and her son aged 25.

Is there anything morally wrong with that hypo for you? According to the Golden Rule, such a situation is not concerned with since both people have not done any wrong/harm to you - you should allow them to engage in their sexual relations.

Do concerns of incest figure into your moral outlook? I don't think the Golden Rule can address those concerns, hence you need a more complex code of ethics/morality to address that. Where is the source for the more complex issues of ethics?