Muhammad Ali vs. Lenox Lewis

[nick177th]

Re: Muhammad Ali vs. Lennox Lewis

The Ernie Terrell fight was interesting for Ali. Terrill was 6'6". You'd think with a much taller person it would have effected him a lot more. He still led with the right (a no no), leaned back defensively (a no no for most boxers). It showed how he might have possibly fought Lewis.

This post has gotten out of hand. Poor Lennox.

Hey man, thanks for starting the thread. I didn't have anything planned for this weekend and I had a ball arguing with the youngins.

 

[nick177th]

Well, one thing is certain. We will not soon see another Boxer like Muhhamed Ali. I was blessed to be able to see him perform his craft. I even got to meet him once. I'm gonna retire from this thread. (Unless Charlie Dark starts talkin' shit again). LOL! Lennox Lewis was a very skilled fighter. he had exceptional finesse skills for such a big man. Both have their place in Boxing history. Okay, somebody start some more bullshit we can argue about next weekend. LOL!

Salaam!

 

[Gazoo]

Well, one thing is certain. We will not soon see another Boxer like Muhhamed Ali. I was blessed to be able to see him perform his craft. I even got to meet him once. I'm gonna retire from this thread. (Unless Charlie Dark starts talkin' shit again). LOL! Lennox Lewis was a very skilled fighter. he had exceptional finesse skills for such a big man. Both have their place in Boxing history. Okay, somebody start some more bullshit we can argue about next weekend. LOL!

Salaam!

Brother Nick177th I appreciate your contribution much my mayne!

 

[totalmoney]

Are you guys fucking serious with this shit? Ali would kill Lewis

 

[nick177th]

Are you guys fucking serious with this shit? Ali would kill Lewis

Totalmoney, save your breath man. I posted and posted all weekend. Some people just ain't tryin' to hear it. Youtube clips were posted, stats brought up, pics posted and serious debate went on. AAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL weekend. Some folks just couldn't be convinced. The VAST majority picked Ali. I, like you, can't see how anybody could pick Lewis over Ali. I tried to bring some of them back from the Darkside but, I couldn't.

 

[charlie dark]

You cannot get an amen because your religion is bad. It's obvious that you are too young to appreciate Ali. He was totally different and so hard to prepare for because there was no one anything like him.

You guys are getting it wrong.
I have no doubt in proclaiming that Ali is the Greatest Heavyweight of all time.
I'm not challenging that fact. My point is and remains that fighters now are bigger and stronger, so are a different fighting prospect.
Lennox Lewis' fighting weight is nearly 2 stone heavier than that of Cleveland and your telling me that wouldn't be an advantage.
It was well renowned even back in Ali's day that he was not the hardest puncher so I extrapolate from that that someone who is not a hard puncher would have less effect on someone like Lennox.
Time favours the new, because we take what was old and improve on it.
Jessie Owens it could be argued was the greatest sprinter of all time because of what he did during the time that he did it, but hey Asafo Powel is faster and would beat him in a race as would a punch of today's athletes. That doesn't take away from his feats, but time has moved on and we are bigger stronger and faster now.
That's just the way it is.

 

[elchoccolatte]

Ali ofcourse...Damn The Tea Man...

 

[Gazoo]

You guys are getting it wrong.
I have no doubt in proclaiming that Ali is the Greatest Heavyweight of all time.
I'm not challenging that fact. My point is and remains that fighters now are bigger and stronger, so are a different fighting prospect.
Lennox Lewis' fighting weight is nearly 2 stone heavier than that of Cleveland and your telling me that wouldn't be an advantage.
It was well renowned even back in Ali's day that he was not the hardest puncher so I extrapolate from that that someone who is not a hard puncher would have less effect on someone like Lennox.
Time favours the new, because we take what was old and improve on it.
Jessie Owens it could be argued was the greatest sprinter of all time because of what he did during the time that he did it, but hey Asafo Powel is faster and would beat him in a race as would a punch of today's athletes. That doesn't take away from his feats, but time has moved on and we are bigger stronger and faster now.
That's just the way it is.

You're right. Techniques and Training do improve over time. Hell Flo Jo ran a 10.49 that would have beaten Jesse Owens most of the time. Tiger would have killed Nicklaus. Ali would have probably destroyed Jack Johnson and Joe Louis. Although I think the advances have been more in recent decades than the time between Jack Johson and Joe Louis.

Some things are proven still unchanged. It turns of handspeed Ali has been timed faster than all heavyweights. It turns of power it really can't be argued that Liston, Foreman, Lyle and Shavers are just as hard hitting as Lennox.

In turns of comparing eras. We can overlap to come up with some analysis. Ali fought and trained with Holmes, but got his ass kicked. Holmes fought Tyson and got his ass kicked. Tyson fought Lewis and got his ass kicked. Of course all were passed their prime. Foreman fought in two eras and held his own against today's fighters (not Lewis, but he did against Holyfield) and he was well passed his prime. Although the argument can be made that the second Foreman fought at about 240, but he was slower, much slower and probably not as strong.

 

[nick177th]

You guys are getting it wrong.
I have no doubt in proclaiming that Ali is the Greatest Heavyweight of all time.
I'm not challenging that fact. My point is and remains that fighters now are bigger and stronger, so are a different fighting prospect.
Lennox Lewis' fighting weight is nearly 2 stone heavier than that of Cleveland and your telling me that wouldn't be an advantage.
It was well renowned even back in Ali's day that he was not the hardest puncher so I extrapolate from that that someone who is not a hard puncher would have less effect on someone like Lennox.Time favours the new, because we take what was old and improve on it.
Jessie Owens it could be argued was the greatest sprinter of all time because of what he did during the time that he did it, but hey Asafo Powel is faster and would beat him in a race as would a punch of today's athletes. That doesn't take away from his feats, but time has moved on and we are bigger stronger and faster now.
That's just the way it is.

I was trying to stay away but, Charlie Dark is at it again. CD, in an earlier post I told you that the name of the game is "Boxing" not "Knockout". All the power in the world won't help you if you can't hit the person. Agreed? Example, If you hit me in a round with to devastating left hooks but, I hit you with 3 jabs and two right leads, who won that round? And in a fight that goes the distance who wins? the guy that hits the hardest or the guy who lands the most punches? I'll give you a hint, it's not the guy who hits the hardest. If that was the case, Ali would've lost to Foreman, Liston, and Frazier. You said that Cleveland Williams didn't look like he wanted to fight. Right? Well, go back to Youtube and look at the Ernie Terrell fight. Ali made everybody look like that man. No one had ever seen anything like Ali. And while you bullshittin', ain't nobody seen anything like him still. The Jesse Owens theory don't hold water in this case playa. what did Lewis do to surpass Ali? What feat did he accomplish to surpass Ali? He's not undefeated and I can lay claim to the fact that Ali never got knocked out. I understand what you're saying but it doesn't pertain to this debate. And oh by the way, Flo Jo was on the juice (steroids) Baby Boy. Don't get it twisted. Know your facts before you throw somethin' out there. Flo Jo wasn't even a 100 meter sprinter by trade my man. She ran the 200 and 400. All of a sudden you get an itch and run the 100 and SHATTER the world record? Nah baby. I was seeing a girl that was a sprinter at the time and we watched the race. As soon as the race was over she said "she's "spikin". I just have to ask you this 'cause it's been on my mind. Are you an engineer by trade Charlie? I had a roomate in college just like you. If you couldn't explain something to him in raw data. he didn't understand it. I'm not knocking you if you are. Hell, I couldn't hang in math enough to be an engineer. I'm just curious to know if you are.

 

[nick177th]

You guys are getting it wrong.
I have no doubt in proclaiming that Ali is the Greatest Heavyweight of all time.
I'm not challenging that fact. My point is and remains that fighters now are bigger and stronger, so are a different fighting prospect.
Lennox Lewis' fighting weight is nearly 2 stone heavier than that of Cleveland and your telling me that wouldn't be an advantage.
It was well renowned even back in Ali's day that he was not the hardest puncher so I extrapolate from that that someone who is not a hard puncher would have less effect on someone like Lennox.
Time favours the new, because we take what was old and improve on it.
Jessie Owens it could be argued was the greatest sprinter of all time because of what he did during the time that he did it, but hey Asafo Powel is faster and would beat him in a race as would a punch of today's athletes. That doesn't take away from his feats, but time has moved on and we are bigger stronger and faster now.
That's just the way it is.

The only scenario where "bigger and stronger" comes into play is when you have like a Frazier vs. Foreman type of fight. If you look at their first fight, Frazier couldn't get inside because Foreman was too big and strong. Frazier was an inside fighter. He NEEDED to be inside to have a chance to win. That would have no bearing on Ali - Lewis. Niether one of them needed to be inside to be effective. Ali would simply "pepper" Lewis the whole fight. last point, Ali don' hit hard huh? Look at Frazier's face after the first two fights with Ali. Then come back and tell me that again.

 

[Gazoo]

The only scenario where "bigger and stronger" comes into play is when you have like a Frazier vs. Foreman type of fight. If you look at their first fight, Frazier couldn't get inside because Foreman was too big and strong. Frazier was an inside fighter. He NEEDED to be inside to have a chance to win. That would have no bearing on Ali - Lewis. Niether one of them needed to be inside to be effective. Ali would simply "pepper" Lewis the whole fight. last point, Ali don' hit hard huh? Look at Frazier's face after the first two fights with Ali. Then come back and tell me that again.

You're right nick. What people also don't understand, is that it's not always about brute power to knock someone out. It's the speed and surprise element that accounts for a lot of the KO's. Ali's second fight with Liston. The one they call the phantom punch. The punch was legit. It simply took Liston off guard.

Some of our modern day heavyweights didn't do to bad with bigger people. Tyson fought at what 221, Holyfield 215, Even Roy Jones fought at 208 or something (I'm not looking at boxrec.com right now - so I'm going by memory).

Although I vote for Ali. He'd have to be careful.

Nick, what would you say the outcome would be between Holmes vs. Lewis (or Holmes-in his prime vs Tyson).

 

[PimpJuice]

You guys are getting it wrong.
I have no doubt in proclaiming that Ali is the Greatest Heavyweight of all time.
I'm not challenging that fact. My point is and remains that fighters now are bigger and stronger, so are a different fighting prospect.
Lennox Lewis' fighting weight is nearly 2 stone heavier than that of Cleveland and your telling me that wouldn't be an advantage.
It was well renowned even back in Ali's day that he was not the hardest puncher so I extrapolate from that that someone who is not a hard puncher would have less effect on someone like Lennox.
Time favours the new, because we take what was old and improve on it.
Jessie Owens it could be argued was the greatest sprinter of all time because of what he did during the time that he did it, but hey Asafo Powel is faster and would beat him in a race as would a punch of today's athletes. That doesn't take away from his feats, but time has moved on and we are bigger stronger and faster now.
That's just the way it is.

Nope. Lenox Lewis had a questionable glass jaw while Ali had a steel like jaw. Lenox Lewis never faced a boxer with such a quick footwork and high boxing intelligence for the sport. That other shit you mentioned about Jesse Owens is irrelevant.

 

[knightmelodic]

Ali beat Heavyweights during his era that were better than Lewis or anyone Lewis faced during his entire era....

***********this thread is now closed

 

[knightmelodic]

You guys are getting it wrong.
I have no doubt in proclaiming that Ali is the Greatest Heavyweight of all time.
I'm not challenging that fact. My point is and remains that fighters now are bigger and stronger, so are a different fighting prospect.
Lennox Lewis' fighting weight is nearly 2 stone heavier than that of Cleveland and your telling me that wouldn't be an advantage.
It was well renowned even back in Ali's day that he was not the hardest puncher so I extrapolate from that that someone who is not a hard puncher would have less effect on someone like Lennox.
Time favours the new, because we take what was old and improve on it.
Jessie Owens it could be argued was the greatest sprinter of all time because of what he did during the time that he did it, but hey Asafo Powel is faster and would beat him in a race as would a punch of today's athletes. That doesn't take away from his feats, but time has moved on and we are bigger stronger and faster now.
That's just the way it is.

wait...what? You never heard of Primo Carnera or other "big" heavies from the 60s and 70s? If Ali had access to the modern training techniques, Lewis doesn't even see the 5th round. You probably never saw Clay fight except on film.

 

[knightmelodic]

The only scenario where "bigger and stronger" comes into play is when you have like a Frazier vs. Foreman type of fight. If you look at their first fight, Frazier couldn't get inside because Foreman was too big and strong. Frazier was an inside fighter. He NEEDED to be inside to have a chance to win. That would have no bearing on Ali - Lewis. Niether one of them needed to be inside to be effective. Ali would simply "pepper" Lewis the whole fight. last point, Ali don' hit hard huh? Look at Frazier's face after the first two fights with Ali. Then come back and tell me that again.

He couldn't get inside because Foreman had the second best jab in heavy history, behind Jack Johnson. But you're on the right track.

 

[charlie dark]

I was trying to stay away but, Charlie Dark is at it again. CD, in an earlier post I told you that the name of the game is "Boxing" not "Knockout". All the power in the world won't help you if you can't hit the person. Agreed? Example, If you hit me in a round with to devastating left hooks but, I hit you with 3 jabs and two right leads, who won that round? And in a fight that goes the distance who wins? the guy that hits the hardest or the guy who lands the most punches? I'll give you a hint, it's not the guy who hits the hardest. If that was the case, Ali would've lost to Foreman, Liston, and Frazier. You said that Cleveland Williams didn't look like he wanted to fight. Right? Well, go back to Youtube and look at the Ernie Terrell fight. Ali made everybody look like that man. No one had ever seen anything like Ali. And while you bullshittin', ain't nobody seen anything like him still. The Jesse Owens theory don't hold water in this case playa. what did Lewis do to surpass Ali? What feat did he accomplish to surpass Ali? He's not undefeated and I can lay claim to the fact that Ali never got knocked out. I understand what you're saying but it doesn't pertain to this debate. And oh by the way, Flo Jo was on the juice (steroids) Baby Boy. Don't get it twisted. Know your facts before you throw somethin' out there. Flo Jo wasn't even a 100 meter sprinter by trade my man. She ran the 200 and 400. All of a sudden you get an itch and run the 100 and SHATTER the world record? Nah baby. I was seeing a girl that was a sprinter at the time and we watched the race. As soon as the race was over she said "she's "spikin". I just have to ask you this 'cause it's been on my mind. Are you an engineer by trade Charlie? I had a roomate in college just like you. If you couldn't explain something to him in raw data. he didn't understand it. I'm not knocking you if you are. Hell, I couldn't hang in math enough to be an engineer. I'm just curious to know if you are.

Your funny man!!
I ain't no engineer I'm in Finance.
I think your mistaking me for someone else, I don't think I mentioned Flo Jo.
But anyway...do you believe in evolution?
I do and I believe that we adapt from generation.
If Ali's style of fight was so all conquering why is it that no other fighters fight like that anymore?
My belief is because as beautiful as it is to look at it's not efficient.
Do you remember that little whipper snapper 'Prince Nazim? He tried to push that style and had some brief success, until Barrea battered him.Ali's style worked because no one knew how to deal with it.But we've learnt how to deal with it now. Even Ali had to adapt his style to the rope a dope style after his enforced ban.
I don't know if you follow soccer, but the 1970 world cup winners Brazil are touted as the greatest team ever but yet even Brazil don't play like that anymore because they will get beaten by more disciplined and efficient style of football.
The same could be said for Ali fighting now.
The question you have to ask yourself now is....can you walk away from this thread??

 

[Gazoo]

He couldn't get inside because Foreman had the second best jab in heavy history, behind Jack Johnson. But you're on the right track.

Many would say Holmes had the best jab in heavyweight history.

 

[tboneone1]

Micheal Jordan, Wayne Gretzy, Tiger Woods, Willie Mays, and, drum roll please, MUHAMMAD ALI. G.O.A.T, any era,always will be. First of all, u have to have a skill level thats off the charts, then u have the heart of a champion. No other heavy weight will ever have both, Please end this thread

 

[nick177th]

Your funny man!!
I ain't no engineer I'm in Finance.
I think your mistaking me for someone else, I don't think I mentioned Flo Jo.
But anyway...do you believe in evolution?
I do and I believe that we adapt from generation.
If Ali's style of fight was so all conquering why is it that no other fighters fight like that anymore?
My belief is because as beautiful as it is to look at it's not efficient.
Do you remember that little whipper snapper 'Prince Nazim? He tried to push that style and had some brief success, until Barrea battered him.Ali's style worked because no one knew how to deal with it.But we've learnt how to deal with it now. Even Ali had to adapt his style to the rope a dope style after his enforced ban.
I don't know if you follow soccer, but the 1970 world cup winners Brazil are touted as the greatest team ever but yet even Brazil don't play like that anymore because they will get beaten by more disciplined and efficient style of football.
The same could be said for Ali fighting now.
The question you have to ask yourself now is....can you walk away from this thread??

That's funny 'cause I'm in Finance too. You say something about the rope a dope. Ali only resorted to that because his skills had diminished. It had nothing to do with Boxers adapting to be able to cope with his earlier style. and who figured it out? Please don't mention Prince Nazim in the same breath with Ali. Nobody uses Ali's style because no one has the skills to be able to use it. sorry about putting the Flo Jo comment on you. That was some one else.

 

[chevy2000]

You must not remember the Ali Forman ?????????????????? Ali hands down .

 

[djdez]

stupid ass question...