Official BGOL Crypto Currency Thread ★★★★★
- Thread starter Matt Beesy
- Start date
Looks like NEO will be hard for U.S. customers to get in on in the future. It will probably be classified as a security and get delisted by U.S. exchanges. On the other hand, GAS(antcoins) won't suffer the same fate. Just another obstacle for us U.S. citizens from the land of freedom and apple pie, but we're used to it by now.
Sad they going to force shit underground because some are still going to try to get that money. I've seen how people were willing to pay a premium for antcoins by having others cop for them.
https://support.bittrex.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000798731
As a leader in the incubation of digital currencies, Bittrex is proud to operate in our growing ecosystem and recognize that it still has a great deal of uncertainty. We’ve long held a high bar for adding new tokens to our exchange which balances the desire to foster innovation against our belief in adhering to the legal and the regulatory guidelines of the jurisdictions which we live and operate in.
Initial Token Offerings are a way for entrepreneurs, who may not otherwise have access to capital, to fund innovative businesses. Often times, for these businesses to be successful, wide distribution of their tokens, which underpin the business, is a must. Our goal is to lead the market with a secure, performant, and compliant platform for the trading and distribution of these tokens.
We are based in the United States and have a global customer base that trades digital tokens. We closely adhere to SEC and CFTC related laws and regulation and we partner with top quality legal, compliance, government relations and regulatory professionals through our relationships with Perkins Coie, Delta Strategy Group and others. We also serve on the Executive Committee of the Chamber of Digital Commerce and meet with regulators and legislators to educate them about this exciting industry.
We applaud the SEC in issuing its Digital Asset Investigative Report. In the report, the Commission notes that whether a particular investment transaction involves the offer or sale of a security will depend on the facts and circumstances, including the economic realities of the transaction. Prior to listing any new token, Bittrex performs this facts and circumstance analysis and considers if a token might be deemed a security under the Howey Test, prior to listing. We strive to only list “use” tokens or tokens which represent a good or service. We conduct a thorough compliance review to avoid listing tokens that may be deemed a security. We believe this is industry best practice and we are pleased that the SEC Report reaches a similar conclusion.
Sad they going to force shit underground because some are still going to try to get that money. I've seen how people were willing to pay a premium for antcoins by having others cop for them.
https://support.bittrex.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000798731
As a leader in the incubation of digital currencies, Bittrex is proud to operate in our growing ecosystem and recognize that it still has a great deal of uncertainty. We’ve long held a high bar for adding new tokens to our exchange which balances the desire to foster innovation against our belief in adhering to the legal and the regulatory guidelines of the jurisdictions which we live and operate in.
Initial Token Offerings are a way for entrepreneurs, who may not otherwise have access to capital, to fund innovative businesses. Often times, for these businesses to be successful, wide distribution of their tokens, which underpin the business, is a must. Our goal is to lead the market with a secure, performant, and compliant platform for the trading and distribution of these tokens.
We are based in the United States and have a global customer base that trades digital tokens. We closely adhere to SEC and CFTC related laws and regulation and we partner with top quality legal, compliance, government relations and regulatory professionals through our relationships with Perkins Coie, Delta Strategy Group and others. We also serve on the Executive Committee of the Chamber of Digital Commerce and meet with regulators and legislators to educate them about this exciting industry.
We applaud the SEC in issuing its Digital Asset Investigative Report. In the report, the Commission notes that whether a particular investment transaction involves the offer or sale of a security will depend on the facts and circumstances, including the economic realities of the transaction. Prior to listing any new token, Bittrex performs this facts and circumstance analysis and considers if a token might be deemed a security under the Howey Test, prior to listing. We strive to only list “use” tokens or tokens which represent a good or service. We conduct a thorough compliance review to avoid listing tokens that may be deemed a security. We believe this is industry best practice and we are pleased that the SEC Report reaches a similar conclusion.
I'm still confused by the ruling and the effect it has on us ultimately...how does this tie into ANS and it possibly being delisted?
ANS produces antcoins, therefore it will be labeled security. Even in their whitepaper, they don't classify antshares as a cryptocurrency. They purposely set things up this way as to not clash with their own government. NEO isn't divisible and yields a dividend GAS(antcoins).
Basically, the SEC is trying to spook folks into not fucking with U.S. customers. That's why we've seen folks getting out ahead of this in the past by barring us from participating in ICOs. You've seen first hand how many companies told us to go fuck off. Shit, even the EOS banned us.
That Wagerr? American citizens ain't supposed to own that. It was an ICO and investors expected a profit. Shit like BAT, EOS, and others ICO coins fall under the same umbrella man.
Fortunately, NEO is an Asian coin and the east drives the market. The world going to move on whether Americans participate or not. Americans who can get the coins will just sell them for BTC and transfer the BTC to fiat through exchanges they are allowed to deal with. Game will move on.
so is the ruling stating that we can't participate in any foreign ICOs or own temporary tokens?
We can't participate in any ICOs. Furthermore, Americans aren't allowed to trade ICO tokens since they are securities. Exchanges are getting ahead on this and expect changes soon. Read below. It's from an exchange based in China. If they are going to get down like that, imagine what exchanges in the west will do.
https://www.ethnews.com/sec-report-raises-more-questions-than-it-answers
To learn the perspective of exchanges, ETHNews reached out to Aurélien Menant, founder and CEO of Gatecoin, a bitcoin and Ethereum token exchange based in Hong Kong and regulated by the Hong Kong Customs and Excise Department, who said:
“As we are not based in the US, have no operations in the country and only onboard residents from a limited number of US states based on communications with individual state regulators which allow crypto-crypto or fiat-crypto exchanges without an MSB license, the SEC’s report will have no impact on which tokens we are able to list on our exchange,” said Menant. “Moving forward, we will also implement a feature that will not allow our small number of US resident clients to trade ICO tokens. We will, however, continue to allow our US resident clients to trade bitcoin, Ethereum and other non-ICO cryptocurrencies.”
Folks just will go underground to get that bread.
We can't participate in any ICOs. Furthermore, Americans aren't allowed to trade ICO tokens since they are securities. Exchanges are getting ahead on this and expect changes soon. Read below. It's from an exchange based in China. If they are going to get down like that, imagine what exchanges in the west will do.
https://www.ethnews.com/sec-report-raises-more-questions-than-it-answers
To learn the perspective of exchanges, ETHNews reached out to Aurélien Menant, founder and CEO of Gatecoin, a bitcoin and Ethereum token exchange based in Hong Kong and regulated by the Hong Kong Customs and Excise Department, who said:
“As we are not based in the US, have no operations in the country and only onboard residents from a limited number of US states based on communications with individual state regulators which allow crypto-crypto or fiat-crypto exchanges without an MSB license, the SEC’s report will have no impact on which tokens we are able to list on our exchange,” said Menant. “Moving forward, we will also implement a feature that will not allow our small number of US resident clients to trade ICO tokens. We will, however, continue to allow our US resident clients to trade bitcoin, Ethereum and other non-ICO cryptocurrencies.”
damn...I've seen bittrex delist coins and they usually give fair notice...this is fucked up tho cuz ANS potential is fucking huge and folks will be forced to give it up before it even begins to reach its true potential...I'm still sketchy on what they classify as a non-ICO cryptocurrency...once the ICO is over and it hits the exchange then it should be considered a non-ICO cryptocurrency w/ very few exceptions...like right now I think EOS is the only coin that you can purchase on an exchange but the ICO is still active
Might be a stupid question, but my BTC is on a Ledger. If I leave it on their I wont get any Bitcoin Cash correct? Like if I decide to transfer it to Kraken a month from now, will I still get BCH? Thanks
It's on their support page
I'm still doing a lot of reading on this, but I don't think something can be a security and suddenly not be a security. Once it passes the Howey test, I think it's pretty much a done deal.
I wouldn't be fearful of east coins. Like I said, they move the market for real. China has their own version of every damn thing big that we have. NEO will still be big. Only concern you have as an American is moving your money out. Also, GAS will be tradable in the west. Since it might be the only 'legal' way for average Americans to participate in this project moving forward, that shit might go higher than expected. And there are so few of them bitches.
That's why I posted in the group that we need to come up with a comprehensive list of what will be classified as securities. Top prospects. Exchanges are jumping out ahead of this, and we should too.
Because once it becomes official, Americans will have to pay a premium to get successful securities. The big boys won't have a problem. This is going to exclude the average joe. But best believe those cats on wall street aren't going to let this shit stop them from being like
I need to read this again...I've read SEC's weigh-in on ICOs and they're basically stating what we've already known/expected w/ most ICOs not allowing the US to participate due to the regulations they'd have to adhere to...I know exchanges like hitBTC and cryptopia sometimes allow you to purchase ICO tokens on their site...the only ICO token I can think of on a major exchange is EOS which is on kraken...so I can see the problem there...the part where I'm confused is NEO's ICO phase is over...it seems like the SEC are focused strictly on tokens that are sold during the ICO phase...so I don't think this affects NEO @ this point...but will have an effect on upcoming ICOs
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Yeah, but what folks are saying is to do the Howey test on a crypto. If the crypto passes, it's a security. SEC is just letting people know to fall in line before they make an example out of some entity and regular joes.
The bottomline is this isn't just about ICOs. It's about anything that can be classified as a security per the Howey test. Anything based in America would be smart to delist ICO tokens and anything passing the Howey test. Foreign exchanges will just limit our access.
I don't know how much time we have left, but top prospects have to be vetted to see how they will be classified.
well then that's gonna be a lot of listings...ETH STRAT IOTA for starters are all "ICO tokens"...idk from what I've read it looks like they're looking to be proactive not retroactive
https://icostats.com/roi-since-ico
ETH is a fork, ETC is the original. And yes, the list will probably have some well-known tokens on it. Proactive. Retroactive. I wouldn't trust these people as far as I could throw them. Much like exchanges, better to be safe than sorry. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
These the types to freeze all your accounts and throw $50,000 fines at your ass for violating some SEC rule. It's like how they bust cats on localbitcoin for being unlicensed money transmitters. They going back years for cases.
ETH is a fork, ETC is the original. And yes, the list will probably have some well-known tokens on it. Proactive. Retroactive. I wouldn't trust these people as far as I could throw them. Much like exchanges, better to be safe than sorry. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
These the types to freeze all your accounts and throw $50,000 fines at your ass for violating some SEC rule. It's like how they bust cats on localbitcoin for being unlicensed money transmitters. They going back years for cases.
aren't both forks still a product of the same ICO? also for all their huffing and puffing the SEC still didn't do anything re: DAO ...I'm not saying they're aren't capable of shutting shit down but that's just too much FUD for me to entertain...if they're gonna go that far then fuck it there's not really much I can do...we can look @ listings that didn't offer ICOs and just threw their coins on exchanges for starters...but we'd be turning our backs on a lot of good projects (some of which we've heavily invested in already) by focusing on just that...idk
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Yes, but I think the fork thing raises some type of issue. Shit, I bet that would take years alone to figure out in court. lol That's why the SEC is shooting shots in the air. They like big dog in Boys in the Hood.
And don't get me wrong, I am not about FUD. I am about trying to figure out which will be classified as securities and then have restricted access to Americans. If those coins still will move with the rest of the world, that's money. That's how I'm looking at this. My only concern is exiting a security, and I think folks should know what they might have to do to exit if something is labeled a security. And if shit gets real, would they be willing to take the risks?
I just want us all to be prepared. Other people will be shocked, but we will have thought all this through and have plans A through Z.
Yes, but I think the fork thing raises some type of issue. Shit, I bet that would take years alone to figure out in court. lol That's why the SEC is shooting shots in the air. They like big dog in Boys in the Hood.
And don't get me wrong, I am not about FUD. I am about trying to figure out which will be classified as securities and then have restricted access to Americans. If those coins still will move with the rest of the world, that's money. That's how I'm looking at this. My only concern is exiting a security, and I think folks should know what they might have to do to exit if something is labeled a security. And if shit gets real, would they be willing to take the risks?
I just want us all to be prepared. Other people will be shocked, but we will have thought all this through and have plans A through Z.
I'm reading this now...
http://www.investopedia.com/exam-guide/series-63/securities/securities.asp
...these are the 3 main questions for the 'howey test'...
- Is it an investment of money?
- Is it in a common enterprise?
- Are its profits to come solely from the efforts of others?
I'm tired right now but as I read this...I don't see how this doesn't apply to practically all coins on the market...the restrictions would come into play for US-based/non US-based companies that didn't/don't register w/ the SEC
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Man, shit is crazy. That's why this deserves an in-depth group discussion.
Look how NEO fits that. NEO holders can vote on the network(how many other cryptos offer that). It's seems to be a common enterprise since NEO holders are invested with others. We have no direct control. And last but not least, we do expect profits to come from what others are doing.
Now if I buy bitcoin, I might just be buying it to spend. It might not be an investment by myself or with others. And I don't rely on profits. Might be testing it out for the experience.
Yeah, this shit can definitely make someone's head spin. That's why SEC is just puffing its chest out now.
I'm ready to pack up and hit switzerland...fuck this shit smdh
You see they caught that Russian in Greece on a U.S. warrant. But seriously, I see cats hitting it big and just leaving to countries without extradition treaties. There is serious money in play here.
If the coin you own can be interpreted as a stock it's a security.
Can you vote? Do you get profits from something it produces?
Or
Is it just a coin that has value itself in exchange for goods?
Can you vote? Do you get profits from something it produces?
Or
Is it just a coin that has value itself in exchange for goods?
so what the fuck do we do...i mean i got some antshares, ethereum, and wager tokens. i dont eve know how to make sense of all this man.
Same thing we been doing...exploit the FUD and make money
It's actually been the other way around
Exactly
ya I'm not dumping shit on a whim...the SEC itself seems unsure of what cryptocurrencies can be considered securities...in some cases it's obvious...for example lykke tokens/coins make it clear that the tokens represent direct shares of the company...not only was their ICO blocked off from the US but when I signed up on their app when the ICO was over they still would not allow residents in certain countries (ours included) to buy their coins...however in other cases it's not that clear cut and subject to interpretation...it doesn't hurt to have a contingency plan tho...but the SEC would have to come thru w/ something more concrete than a "warning shot" for me to act on it...took me 8 months to secure the positions I'm in now...it does help to keep your ear to the streets tho...if a coin is in danger of being delisted or w/e the case may be then ya you wanna sell it before everybody else has the same idea
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the shit is still fuzzy @ best...bittrex tries to weed out what they believe are tokens that don't "fit the bill" according to the SEC but again w/ the SEC a lot of this shit is subject to how they interpret it...this article brings up the same question/scenario I posed where they could possibly go after ETH subject to their interpretation of course...
https://www.ethnews.com/sec-report-raises-more-questions-than-it-answers
...I'm not saying all but a lot of cryptocurrencies that were offered thru ICOs can be loosely interpreted as securities...I posted the 3 questions the SEC looks @ when determining what is a security...the first 2 questions are a definitive "yes" but that last question is where shit get iffy -
- Is it an investment of money?
- Is it in a common enterprise?
- Are its profits to come solely from the efforts of others?
until the SEC says/does something more concrete it's all guesswork...they 'found' that DAO was a security but couldn't do anything for several reasons...it's now defunct for one...also due to the nature of cryptocurrency projects who are they going to hold accountable...I see now why some teams keep their names in the dark...the easier target tho will be US-based exchanges and that's where we can get screwed if coin(s) we're holding are no longer allowed to be bought/sold if they're delisted
I'm holding on to strat neo/ans waves and wagerr regardless of the SEC's recent findings...honestly...everything on your list except ubiq and maybe litecoin is subject to interpretation and that's not to spread FUD but to show you why you just have to wait and see...and perhaps have a backup plan as far as "safe" coins to purchase which is a little bit hard to do until the SEC offers something more concrete...imo there are not that many coins that can be explicitly defined as securities but you know how these muthafuckas do if they want to
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here is the SEC report on the DAO...I'm gonna read it to see if they specify exactly what it was about the DAO/what they did that allowed the SEC to deem it a security...
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/investreport/34-81207.pdf
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/investreport/34-81207.pdf
the DAO was found to be a security for these 3 reasons...as usual when I post in here its more so for myself as I can write down ideas and think out loud and refer back to them if need be...but here are the 3 reasons in line w/ the 3 questions that make up the howey test...I thought it was the 3rd question that is subject to interpretation but it is the 2nd question...
Investors in The DAO Invested Money - they determined the answer is 'yes' bcuz an ICO took place in which $$$ via cryptocurrency is paid directly to the company to purchase tokens
With a Reasonable Expectation of Profit - they determined the answer is 'yes' bcuz token holders could vote on certain issues and receive incentives for doing so which could also lead to the increased value of the token..."thus, a reasonable investor would have been motivated, at least in part, by the prospect of profits"
^^^ this is the part that has me concerned...I know companies like RISE and SHIFT allowed coin/token holders to vote on issues based on the number of coins/tokens they had and they'd be rewarded w/ more coins/tokens for voting...so my concern is are token holder "voting rights" the only criterion the SEC is using to determine what qualifies as a "reasonable expectation of profit"...? and this is the question I'm worried is open to loose interpretation...maybe I'm just overthinking shit
Derived from the Managerial Efforts of Others - they determined the answer is 'yes' bcuz the teams chart the course/lead the direction of the projects via commits roadmaps slack groups etc and they present themselves to be experts in the field...the SEC takes into account that some cryptocurrencies allow coin/token holders to vote on issues but the effects of those votes are limited...in other words the project team runs the show
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