GOTHAM: New 'young' Batman - themed series on FOX
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that episode last night was excellent
its always interesting to see Joker portrayals...liking this kid's turn so far
jessica lucas would get so much wood bruh
its always interesting to see Joker portrayals...liking this kid's turn so far
jessica lucas would get so much wood bruh
agreed
Jerome is stealing season 2
Too bad they cut it short
I was just thinking "they sure are playing him too much this season" then bam.
So they basically handled him the way they did the red hood.
so why should i watch this now? easily the most compelling acting job on the show since inception and kill him? just lock him up again and use him later on
they royally fucked up with that decision. ROYALLY. you don't have to make every episode about him. you can even not show him for several episodes at a time.
but kill him?
so why should i watch this now? easily the most compelling acting job on the show since inception and kill him? just lock him up again and use him later on
they royally fucked up with that decision. ROYALLY. you don't have to make every episode about him. you can even not show him for several episodes at a time.
but kill him?
guess he was like everyone suspected from day one.. a red herring
Its back to Penguin and mob business as usual.
Why the fuck they got rid of Jerome...
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/gotham-ep-tonight-joker-origin-005412890.html
‘Gotham’ EP On Tonight’s Joker Origin Shocker & Honoring The Batman Legacy
SPOILER ALERT: This story contains details of tonight’s episode of Gotham
EXCLUSIVE: In a move that many shows would have saved for a season finale, the Batman backstory series tonight laid some new tracks for the origins of the Caped Crusader’s archenemy. Having teased and toyed out the emergence of the Joker since the last half of Gotham’s first season, Monday’s third episode of the self-titled Rise Of The Villains second season of the Fox drama added a whole new twist into how the sadistic criminal mastermind came to be and who he really is.
In a way, it was all revealed less than halfway through the episode when Jerome’s father last words were to tell him, “Your legacy will be death and madness.”
As tonight’s mayhem-filled episode “The Last Laugh” revealed, the Joker isn’t the Cameron Monaghan-portrayed Jerome Valeska — at least not directly. Jerome now is dead, stabbed in front of the citizens and criminals of Gotham on live TV. But with a cult already growing around the chaos and casualties that Jerome and the rest of the Maniax escapees from Arkham Asylum brought to Gotham over the first two episodes and the deep-pocketed gala charity ball on tonight’s show, the Joker is coming.
Now working on the final episodes of the season, executive producer Bruno Heller spoke with me about this new take on The Joker’s origin and how it all weaves together. The Rome co-creator also discusses who may or may not be playing Batman’s deadliest foe, what other villains are coming in Season 2 and paying homage to the legacy of the Dark Knight.
DEADLINE: With the introduction of Jerome last season, even with his Joker-like tendencies, to put it gently, and the big attack on Ben McKenzie’s Jim Gordon from the audience at Comic-Con this summer, it seemed like you were teasing out tonight’s death and the cult that emerges from the very beginning. Why did you decide to throw in this twist, take the Joker in this new direction?
HELLER: Because it’s a twist that leads to more twists. The creation of the Joker is a larger and more epic story than people realize, and this show is very much about kind of the deep, secret history. So, as the show rolls on, people will see how a mythology is born, how a kind of cultural mien is created that will lead us to the Joker himself.
When the Joker appears, he is an inevitable part of the history of Gotham. He’s not someone who created himself out of nothing. He’s part of a whole cultural history, a whole tradition. I know that sounds kind of highfalutin, but that’s what the twist is about.
DEADLINE: But the Joker is a character who has a pretty well established origin story from the early 1950s in Detective Comics. There’s been variations of that story, but essentially he was a criminal, sometimes called the Red Hood, who fell in a vat of near deadly chemicals and became the killer comedian. From what we saw in “The Last Laugh,” even after Jerome is killed and the duplicitous Theo Galavan emerges as a hero to Gotham, that backstory is out the window. Why?
HELLER: Well, because sometimes backstories are more complicated and interesting than, you know, falling into vat of toxic chemicals or being bitten by a spider. Like they say, nobody creates themselves out of whole cloth, whether it’s Elvis Presley, or you name it — Jesus. There’s a tradition in forebears and ancestors of those characters that went into creating them.
So, to me, Jerome is genuinely the mother and father of the Joker. He is the seed of the Joker.
DEADLINE: So, with Season 2 heading into its last episodes of production, have you cast an actual Joker yet, or is that still in the cards?
HELLER: We have not cast an actual Joker yet.
DEADLINE: You know that a lot of shows would have used this big a twist on this big a character for a season ender. Why did you get this out there so early in this Rise Of The Villains season?
HELLER: If we’d left it for a season ender, I think people would have felt that we had sold them a dummy, if you like. That it was a red herring, that we were just simply using the brilliance of Cameron Monaghan to goose the show. When in fact, it’s actually a much deeper and longer game we’re playing. We want them to ask that question and be engaged in, you know, how the hell does this longer story play out? You make it a season ender, you’re kind of putting more weight on it, and you’re kind of tricking the audience. We don’t want to trick the audience.
Look, it was very much a considered decision, and we recognized that we’re putting a twist in the story that will take some people aback and be shocking. Fine. We weren’t trying to lie before about who Jerome is, and where he’s going, but it’s the first chapter in a longer story.
DEADLINE: A longer origin story?
HELLER: Absolutely. Origin stories are to me, and I think to a large part of the audience, one of the most fascinating aspects of this whole world. You know, to a degree, those origin stories are the meat and drink of this world.
So now all of that will become clearer to the audience as this season unfolds.
You’ll see how Gotham itself coalesces around the legend of Jerome. I don’t want to give away too much, but the audience will see an organic progression towards the real history of the Joker, rather than a kind of legendary supervillain who creates himself out of nothing.
To me, the difference between mythology and real history is that the real history has to tell a kind of believable story of how these things happened.
The physics has to work.
DEADLINE: So you are planning out for a five-season Gotham, a six-season…
HELLER: Well, if the business was different, and we were blessed with a firm number of years that we had a story to tell, then I would work it out to that degree. One of the tricks that you have to learn, with episodic TV, is you don’t know how many years you’re going to be blessed with, so, we have an arc worked out that is multi-year, and we kind of have to keep on our toes to tell it completely.
DEADLINE: It’s not like with the even more maturing young Bruce Wayne, Jim Gordon, now crime lord Oswald Cobblepot and Selina Kyle, to name a few, you don’t have backstories galore to draw from. And there’s the new characters or enriched characters from the comics you’ve introduced. It is a plethora of riches?
HELLER: The beauty of this world is there are so many stories to tell, and there’s so many wonderful characters. Wonderful characters we haven’t even begun to introduce — it’s a world that is infinitely expandable. So we’re going to see Mr. Freeze this season. We’re going to meet Dr. Hugo Strange. We’re going to meet Firefly. And there’s several other surprises that I want to keep as surprises.
DEADLINE: When Gotham was first announced, I know there were concerns among the fanboys and fangirls that you were treating icons in a new way, and that always raises the possibility of a Batman backlash. Now in your second season of the show, what has the response been like for you?
HELLER: On the whole, the response, overwhelmingly, has been good, from the fans. It’s an odd position to be in because people don’t come up to you on the street, and say, you know, that was rubbish or you’ve betrayed my sense of who Bruce Wayne is. You tend to get the compliments more readily than you get the people who might have objections. And I’ll give myself some praise, on this level, we cast really correctly and well with the key characters.
I think, if people did not believe that David Mazouz is Bruce Wayne, then the whole thing falls apart. But that young man is genius of an actor, and full of soul and depth and kind of conflict. And once you believe that character, and you believe Sean Pertwee as Alfred — which everybody, I feel, does — Ben McKenzie’s Jim Gordon, and Robin Lord Taylor as Penguin; he makes that character sing. Once those sort of key elements are in place, and you’ve given the audience permission to suspend disbelief, then everything else follows.
Everyone involved in Gotham recognizes the privilege and the honor of working with such iconic characters, and I think, as long as we treat those characters and this story with respect, then people will feel that and be willing to go along for the ride.
‘Gotham’ EP On Tonight’s Joker Origin Shocker & Honoring The Batman Legacy
SPOILER ALERT: This story contains details of tonight’s episode of Gotham
EXCLUSIVE: In a move that many shows would have saved for a season finale, the Batman backstory series tonight laid some new tracks for the origins of the Caped Crusader’s archenemy. Having teased and toyed out the emergence of the Joker since the last half of Gotham’s first season, Monday’s third episode of the self-titled Rise Of The Villains second season of the Fox drama added a whole new twist into how the sadistic criminal mastermind came to be and who he really is.
In a way, it was all revealed less than halfway through the episode when Jerome’s father last words were to tell him, “Your legacy will be death and madness.”
As tonight’s mayhem-filled episode “The Last Laugh” revealed, the Joker isn’t the Cameron Monaghan-portrayed Jerome Valeska — at least not directly. Jerome now is dead, stabbed in front of the citizens and criminals of Gotham on live TV. But with a cult already growing around the chaos and casualties that Jerome and the rest of the Maniax escapees from Arkham Asylum brought to Gotham over the first two episodes and the deep-pocketed gala charity ball on tonight’s show, the Joker is coming.
Now working on the final episodes of the season, executive producer Bruno Heller spoke with me about this new take on The Joker’s origin and how it all weaves together. The Rome co-creator also discusses who may or may not be playing Batman’s deadliest foe, what other villains are coming in Season 2 and paying homage to the legacy of the Dark Knight.
DEADLINE: With the introduction of Jerome last season, even with his Joker-like tendencies, to put it gently, and the big attack on Ben McKenzie’s Jim Gordon from the audience at Comic-Con this summer, it seemed like you were teasing out tonight’s death and the cult that emerges from the very beginning. Why did you decide to throw in this twist, take the Joker in this new direction?
HELLER: Because it’s a twist that leads to more twists. The creation of the Joker is a larger and more epic story than people realize, and this show is very much about kind of the deep, secret history. So, as the show rolls on, people will see how a mythology is born, how a kind of cultural mien is created that will lead us to the Joker himself.
When the Joker appears, he is an inevitable part of the history of Gotham. He’s not someone who created himself out of nothing. He’s part of a whole cultural history, a whole tradition. I know that sounds kind of highfalutin, but that’s what the twist is about.
DEADLINE: But the Joker is a character who has a pretty well established origin story from the early 1950s in Detective Comics. There’s been variations of that story, but essentially he was a criminal, sometimes called the Red Hood, who fell in a vat of near deadly chemicals and became the killer comedian. From what we saw in “The Last Laugh,” even after Jerome is killed and the duplicitous Theo Galavan emerges as a hero to Gotham, that backstory is out the window. Why?
HELLER: Well, because sometimes backstories are more complicated and interesting than, you know, falling into vat of toxic chemicals or being bitten by a spider. Like they say, nobody creates themselves out of whole cloth, whether it’s Elvis Presley, or you name it — Jesus. There’s a tradition in forebears and ancestors of those characters that went into creating them.
So, to me, Jerome is genuinely the mother and father of the Joker. He is the seed of the Joker.
DEADLINE: So, with Season 2 heading into its last episodes of production, have you cast an actual Joker yet, or is that still in the cards?
HELLER: We have not cast an actual Joker yet.
DEADLINE: You know that a lot of shows would have used this big a twist on this big a character for a season ender. Why did you get this out there so early in this Rise Of The Villains season?
HELLER: If we’d left it for a season ender, I think people would have felt that we had sold them a dummy, if you like. That it was a red herring, that we were just simply using the brilliance of Cameron Monaghan to goose the show. When in fact, it’s actually a much deeper and longer game we’re playing. We want them to ask that question and be engaged in, you know, how the hell does this longer story play out? You make it a season ender, you’re kind of putting more weight on it, and you’re kind of tricking the audience. We don’t want to trick the audience.
Look, it was very much a considered decision, and we recognized that we’re putting a twist in the story that will take some people aback and be shocking. Fine. We weren’t trying to lie before about who Jerome is, and where he’s going, but it’s the first chapter in a longer story.
DEADLINE: A longer origin story?
HELLER: Absolutely. Origin stories are to me, and I think to a large part of the audience, one of the most fascinating aspects of this whole world. You know, to a degree, those origin stories are the meat and drink of this world.
So now all of that will become clearer to the audience as this season unfolds.
You’ll see how Gotham itself coalesces around the legend of Jerome. I don’t want to give away too much, but the audience will see an organic progression towards the real history of the Joker, rather than a kind of legendary supervillain who creates himself out of nothing.
To me, the difference between mythology and real history is that the real history has to tell a kind of believable story of how these things happened.
The physics has to work.
DEADLINE: So you are planning out for a five-season Gotham, a six-season…
HELLER: Well, if the business was different, and we were blessed with a firm number of years that we had a story to tell, then I would work it out to that degree. One of the tricks that you have to learn, with episodic TV, is you don’t know how many years you’re going to be blessed with, so, we have an arc worked out that is multi-year, and we kind of have to keep on our toes to tell it completely.
DEADLINE: It’s not like with the even more maturing young Bruce Wayne, Jim Gordon, now crime lord Oswald Cobblepot and Selina Kyle, to name a few, you don’t have backstories galore to draw from. And there’s the new characters or enriched characters from the comics you’ve introduced. It is a plethora of riches?
HELLER: The beauty of this world is there are so many stories to tell, and there’s so many wonderful characters. Wonderful characters we haven’t even begun to introduce — it’s a world that is infinitely expandable. So we’re going to see Mr. Freeze this season. We’re going to meet Dr. Hugo Strange. We’re going to meet Firefly. And there’s several other surprises that I want to keep as surprises.
DEADLINE: When Gotham was first announced, I know there were concerns among the fanboys and fangirls that you were treating icons in a new way, and that always raises the possibility of a Batman backlash. Now in your second season of the show, what has the response been like for you?
HELLER: On the whole, the response, overwhelmingly, has been good, from the fans. It’s an odd position to be in because people don’t come up to you on the street, and say, you know, that was rubbish or you’ve betrayed my sense of who Bruce Wayne is. You tend to get the compliments more readily than you get the people who might have objections. And I’ll give myself some praise, on this level, we cast really correctly and well with the key characters.
I think, if people did not believe that David Mazouz is Bruce Wayne, then the whole thing falls apart. But that young man is genius of an actor, and full of soul and depth and kind of conflict. And once you believe that character, and you believe Sean Pertwee as Alfred — which everybody, I feel, does — Ben McKenzie’s Jim Gordon, and Robin Lord Taylor as Penguin; he makes that character sing. Once those sort of key elements are in place, and you’ve given the audience permission to suspend disbelief, then everything else follows.
Everyone involved in Gotham recognizes the privilege and the honor of working with such iconic characters, and I think, as long as we treat those characters and this story with respect, then people will feel that and be willing to go along for the ride.
Why the fuck they got rid of Jerome...
Jerome was the best part of the show and one of the best interpretations of the joker right up there with Mark Hamill and Heath Ledger.
Hopefully Jared Leto was taking notes.
^^^^
and that is the g d truth right there.
they WILL regret this decision
Unless they work it like he haunts everyone else who wants to assume the new mantle of the Joker...kind of like a demon guide or god of disorder Loki-type thing.
According to canon... Joker didn't become crazy until the dip in the acid bath. He was just a petty criminal. So how will they work that into "whoever" becomes the Joker. He didn't choose it, he fell into it. Pun intended....
Also, the Joker doesn't even remember his own origin. One day its this then the other day its that.
i know the origin but as you can see Heller is doing a complete re-do for the TV show...
I have NO IDEA what he got planned but going by the interviews Jerome will become the INSPIRATION for the Joker, patient zero the originator.
So they will have to refer to him again in the future...
and he became a fan favorite so damn fast...I think its a HUGE mistake for FOX to let him go
UNLESS they thought he was so good he would swallow up the show much like the Penguin did.
They need to make him haunt the next Joker (how ever many they decide to have in the course of the show) and since NO ONE KNOWS the REAL origin of the Joker anyway they might as well have fun with it and make it SMART and FRESH and having Jerome be the devil on his shoulder so to speak would be interesting?
He raises from the vat confused poisoned near death deranged and he starts hearing Jerome directing him...
Officially the joker's origin is unknown. There are different theories and Nolan films picked up on that by having him tell different stories about the scars.
The epilogue picks that up by alluding to the fact that the joker can be anyone.
Not disappointed that they killed the 'joker' but that they killed the best part of the show.
* boom
Btw...when he turned into the camera and said my name is Theo galavan.
I laughed out loud.
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I laughed out loud.
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Could also be the Jokerz, from batman beyond storyline
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The Joker character is based of a character of the film The Man Who Laughs. Jerome is the man who laughs who the future Joker is going to be based off of. Just a theory.
Seems like Tabitha will be Selena's guide and this is the most Barbara has been the obvious mother of harlequin.
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^^^ This.
The whole reason you even watched the show in the first place, and before you even knew they were making a "Joker origin".
So miss me with all that "Killed the best part of the show" crap.
And like we were saying Playa enough mindless entertainment and back to some substance.
you might be in the minority i think the general concenus has been that this season has been a vast improvement to last season. Due to them getting rid of the episodic nature and giving the season focus.
i big part of that focus has been the emphasis of the rise of the villians & the jerome character
but to each his own
I think that they should have cast another character to play the Joker. The one they cast should have been the final Joker. He hands down is the best Joker I have seen thus far. It will be hard to cast someone better than him for the role of the actual Joker IMO.
that's bogus.
if something is introduced to the show that is far better than what was on it taking it away doesn't mean the show will go back to being how it was in the first place.. not automatically.
and it wasn't mindless. they were executing a plan via chaos. we still don't even know what the end game is and it affects the actual citizens of gotham.
penguin and them had their underworld battle that we saw but it wasn't fucking with the good folks. this is the peril we need.
im not going to hate this show or stop watching the show but don't diminish the impact that the joker had on this show in such a short time.
they killed jerome, essen, falcone, and maroni
this show is fast becoming a prequel to this version of batman
this show is fast becoming a prequel to this version of batman
I thought with the killing of Fish they found there way...
(even though ironically she created the entire blueprint of how all the gotham villains have been played since)
a more gritty Law & Order, gothic crime drama drawn in comic book colors.
(and to be fair I do feel a LITTLE BIT of Batman '66 at times which doesn't necessarily have to be a BAD thing?...it would be ILL to have Adam West play either the new Mayor or a famous Actor that Bruce meets that inspires him much like Zorro)
More faithful to the comic series then the films.
I wanted to see how dealing with these new villains feeling powerless the corruption finally corroding the city from the top down...
the origins of the cesspool
Bruce FEELING the city's decline
seeing it directly through Bullock and Gordon etc.
THAT was the direction...
but I can't dismiss the great acting by Jerome...he brought Joker to life (not an easy task by any means after Jack, Leger and Hamill) and I think it was probably NECESSARY for the show to survive another season too.
Because casual fans of the comics and Batman?
They were not going to sit through another season of Bruce finding himself at 13 even though I thought that was the ENTIRE selling point?!?!?
I hope they can slow down (you were right by the way) and develop stories and character development....cause quiet is kept although it IS dragging a little the payoff of the Riddler could be epic.
They should have a baby Killer Croc at the same circus and have the Greysons there too. They should have shown Black Mask's grave to tie in with the comic book origin story.
I'm fine with the pace. I just think some story arcs take longer than others and because this isn't syndicated and guaranteed they need to make sure they get what they can out of things. TV isn't giving you 4 seasons to figure shit out. you're on a year to year contract until you really blow up.
We'll see what they do.
And im perfectly fine with the riddler. his arc is perfect. it's a gradual descent into madness. he isn't a main character he's a side character that's going crazy while the world around him doesn't notice. so sprinkling him in how they are is perfect
the penguin needs an adversary or needs a goal or something. right now he's just fucking boring because he's bored. all his enemies are gone and he's the king. there's nothing to manipulate or to fight or to do. shit i wouldn't be mad if they just straight jacked his running for office bit from the movie cause that's what people do when they're sitting in a mansion bored as fuck.
I think Theo is going to be that dude...
I was torn on Harvey going to see Penguin on the side though...
but it looks like that was just to establish that he is back to good ole Harvey and he isn't going to forget what happened to Fish...
they BETTER pay off that Fish's right hand man works for Penguin though..
I would LOVE to see that betrayal.
They should have had a a close up of him at that table wile Harvey was talking...
and your right they WILL not be patient with this show which is sad...
I think Vic Mackey will be a WONDERFUL addition...
less Barbara even though she is much better then originally conceived.
They need cases where they are just surrounded by Penguin, rival gangs, super villains and in house corruption.
I like how Vic Makey is going after Penguin and Gordon is sh*tting his pants because he thinks he will be ratted out!
^^This. We had fun now back to business.
Bruce may have been the selling point, but the show is about Gordon. Bruce plight is a sub plot.
They did use Gerome to sell season two, but Die hard bat fans would have eventually been pissed if his back story took to much liberty and life anyway.
This is an EXCELLENT idea. There are only a few characters that I was sad to see get murked onscreen (Commander Data from Star Trek is in the top three), but Cameron Monaghan's Joker has definitely made the list.
If they can do fresh and/or purposely misleading takes on other iconic villains OR cast other chicks as fine as Jessica Lucas--
(Lemme pause here and show some respect:
Okay, back to what I was saying...)
--,then I'll keep right on tuning in. They have plenty to pick from.
I know yall liked Jerome...but...considering the fan theories that was out last season, I'm surprised no one mentioned Penguin talking about changing his laugh...or did someone catch that?
Elaborate Im confused
But the whole point of Gerome and the reveal was to set up that laugh; which brings fear in people hearts, the same way "red hood" brought out peoples rebellious side.
Thinking about it this morning, killing Him was more of an out than anything.
Heath was great because we didnt get over exposed to him.
So was Gerome. They both exited on a high note before it got stale.
I think Letos portrayal will be the same. It will be different and will leave us wanting more that we will not get.
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