The "HEALTH CARE MAFIA" vs. Obama -learn the facts!!! -not the LIES

BigUnc

Potential Star
Registered
I didn't mention it, cause I figured that everyone would click on the Wikipedia link I supplied.
The comment of Ingrid is something that IMO has nothing to do with the Health care model chosen. I believe it has to do with labour shortages. And that problem has been there for a while (at least since 2000).
At the end of the day every health care model has it's pro's and cons (don't forget to view the video by choosing watch online)..

It's going to be hard to come up with a solution.



tried to view the Frontline program but it's not available because it's on sale now.

The key phrase in your post is "every health care model has it's pro's and cons". That is very true so maybe this society needs to ask itself this question.

What cons are we willing to live with in order to accomplish our goal?

This is very important, 90%+ of the population has to sign off on the fact that there are going to be negatives attached to whatever system they decide on.

What's more important is those negatives may affect them or their family members to the point it may interfere with the health care they themselves or their family members receive.

Know what you're signing off on. It may come back to bite you.
 

unknownsoldier

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Change it how ???



If life was so simple.

Do you live along a U.S. coast where Hurricanes are a possibility ??? If you think there is a healthcare insurance problem, try buying a homeowners policy in one of those regions. Did you know that many homeowners in those regions are treated just like people with preexisting illnesses ???

What about those who live along great rivers and river basins ??? Did you know? - that for so many Americans living in those, it was difficult to even obtain insurance because insurers wouldn't write policies to them ??? AND, did you know that the answser to that was Federal Intervention ??? If this was Jeopardy, your correct answer would have been: What is National Flood Insurance.

What about those people who live in fire prone areas of Southern California ??? Is insurance as cheap as pie there ???

What about auto insurance if you happen to live in higher crime areas (many people do and not by choice). Is auto insurance on the cheap there ???




As ecomomic priniciple, I agree: competition does tend to drive down prices. However:

  • Does that mean competition for THOSE PEOPLE you want to sell insurance to ??? or

  • Does that mean competiting NOT to sell insurance to those who you DON'T want to sell insurance to ???

So, what would you do to straighten this mess out ???

QueEx

No answers yet:confused:
 

OnnaReal

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Coming from Chicago, this is part of what I think Obama wants to address,

This one happened to me!

I decided to take action on a lingering rash on my lower leg that I had hoped would "just go away" but didn't after about 5 weeks. I happened to be south in the city and decided to use a hospital I knew provided county health department services and provided health clinics specifically targeted to African American males. What better place for free services, right?

I took the number 29 bus north to 51st street, transferring to the number 1 to ride east to Provident Hospital on Chicago's south side. The hospital is just north of Washington Park, part of Chicago's proposed bid for the 2016 Olympic Games. More on that later. I enter the main door, sign in as an emergency room visitor, let the guard check my pass, and I follow the purple line to the last turn heading to the Emergency Waiting Room. As I turn the corner, that smell of sick people hits full force. Even more powerful, they are seated right out to the fire doors, leaning on the walls, lined up in the sign-in ropes and walking in search of seats somewhere near the waiting area. I stutter step once, and, in chorus, the guard and some waiting patients say "sign-in's over there!", pointing to the ropes across the room. It's 3:20pm January 10, 2007.

I sign in and find a spot on the unfinished drywall side of the room, where the worst draft seems to come from. I'm there surveying the characters as much as they are surveying me until about an hour later.
"Jack Johnson*!"
"Yeah!"
"Jack Johnson*!"
"I'm HERE!", I raise my hand as I walk.
"You should answer as soon as you're called, so you don't miss your turn!"
I get registered and am told to take a seat until I'm called. It's 6:30pm.

It's getting colder by the second it seems now, and it's clear this is going to the full 12 hours it took the last time I visited a county hospital.
"Jack Johnson*"
"YESS!!"
I rise like I'm the one finally getting treated, walk toward the door to the emergency bed area, only to be intercepted by the triage nurse taking my intake vitals. No fever, no blood pressure problems, I'm walking and talking and not screaming or bleeding, so take a seat. It's 8:45pm

There's "Bama Man", can't remember his name, 2 inch gash across his knee in the open pants leg. He's so glad to be from the south and took the joking we all gave him about how a man is supposed to cry sometimes when we acknowledged the deep cut. He snickers a little as I sit back down, so does Greg the carpet man and some of the homeless gathered in our corner as I settle in for what is obviously a long wait.

I can only call him "The Extra Terrestrial Brother", since no one knew his name or exactly where he could have come from. He sat down directly behind the gay ladies couple and started to preach hate like most of you may have never heard. He turns to face me, like I'm a long lost friend, and announces his "vasocatomy" is scheduled for the morning. He set it up with his therapist because the Martians ain't gonna get him, again. Why am I the first one they always choose to talk to? ET walks to the emergency vehicle bay, looks in the window, walks off and suddenly is back in the waiting room a few seconds later. He walks past me, mad because I didn't know what the Martians were up to and finds a new listener to curse the gay ladies about. He's louder now and really upset because his homeless listener sits more silent than I did. ET storms to the front of the waiting room, dead eye's the couple, turns the corner to head out of the waiting room and curses all the babies of the "evil doers" that we all have become as he walks out; "F*** Y'ALL!"
"Shut the hell up!", from across the room,
"The show's open folks!", near the windows,
"You shut the hell up too! It's too damn late at night fa allat noise!"
"Stay outta my video!", again near the windows and the room laughs at the mini floor show. It's 2:15am.

"Jack*...."
I'm back at the nurse's station, new nurse with an African accent, singing an African gospel song. Her voice is soothing during my blood pressure check, even warming in a waiting room that's got to be somewhere near 30 degrees. There's not a single person without a coat and likely hat and gloves one. She tells me the name of the song, I don't remember. I remember how comforting she was to many who had waited so many hours without reaching the limited emergency personnel available. It's 2:40am

I never thought I'd be reminded how much warmer 40 is above 25 until I walk outside with Greg to "warm up" by getting an outside chill on.

The second changing of the guard, and that one without a coat is leaving. Don't know how he stayed in that room without ever putting on something warmer than the blue guard's shirt. Two ladies arrive as door guards, a Caribbean descent gentleman arrives with them. Then comes the ER nurse to announce how long a wait it's been, [news?] and how long a wait it's gonna be. There have been lots of ambulances and 2 more arrive just after her announcement. It's 6:10am

Vitals are called again, it's cold, the nurse suggests we may be split up into groups to speed things up, which will start at 9am. Nothing but vitals until then. I'm starting to see some of the same people start a new workday that ended one when I came in yesterday. The guards confirm they see people still waiting that were left here last shift. The worst part is this seems to be normal.

It's 9:20am, and many new arrival names are called twice while my group waits to hear even one. There's no action suggesting a "split" is in the works, but new arrivals seem to be slipping by some of us all nighters and it's time for change. Some suit walks a tour through, we chase him to the front main elevators and hold open the doors demanding an explanation of why we're still waiting and newcomers are seeming to get help. He points us to the duty nurse, who we locate quickly back between the ER and the ER waiting room. She's patient, but obviously defensive as we demand some understanding of what's going on with the promise that we'd be seen soon. She takes our names and makes what we believe are empty promises and disappears. It's 9:35am

We wait at the ER door, the duty nurse returns and updates us on pending emergency work. Another ambulance arrives, with a baby. Groups are collected from the overnighters, people that were indeed ahead of my trio, but none looks 'sicker' than my trio. A second group is called, Greg and Doris are in the second group of "non-emergency care" patients taken away for services down the hall. I'm not critical, but emergent, possibly life threatened by some of my symptoms, so I have to wait until the more critical emergencies allow me a turn. It's 10:45am

Vitals again! I'm 98.0 degrees, up from the 97.2 during the cold overnight. It's 11:45am.

"Jack Johnson*!"
It's finally my turn. There is no doubt this is the emergency room call. I walk over and meet Cynthia, in the ER across the hall, a full 25 degrees warmer than the waiting room easy! Cynthia gives me the gown and says I'll be giving blood samples and going for sonograms later. I change and am amazed [and pissed] at how much warmer it is in the gown under a single sheet than I was in my coat in the room next door. I must really be dehydrated after the wait, because I'm punched 4 times without a really good draw. The doctor arrives and I suggest it's Cellulitis from internet pictures I'd seen in searching out my problem. He gives me a nod of approval after his professional review, but still warns of a need for sonogram of leg arteries for possible clots. 10 minutes, maybe, we talk. It's 1:30pm

The sonograms are completed, the nurses shift changes and I await the new ER doctor's review of my charts. The diagnosis is confirmed and prescription written and I'm finally ready for discharge; It's 5:15pm, Thursday, January 11, 2007.

I meet the duty nurse from earlier, explain that I wasn't angry, just frustrated at the long wait. She acknowledged me, noting my name came up at a staff meeting about ER problems from the previous night. She urged I attend a "Save Provident Hospital" meeting in response to the night at the ER, noting pending budget cuts threatening a range of 17% cut in services to total closure of Provident Hospital. She suggested I should think what it might be like if Provident were closed the night I arrived. I dropped off my prescription request and walked to the meeting 4 blocks away [in a straight path], taking me only 9 blocks to get there. I had the guidance of a nearby church member who was sure the meeting was the other way.

I was placed as first guest speaker after the local clergy and a hospital administrator. I described my visit as bittersweet; a long cold night with some really colorful characters ending with some pretty compassionate and professional care for someone without a dime to spend on services. I asked people to imagine where those homeless would have been overnight, what would have happened to the baby brought in early in the morning, where would people of this neighborhood turn if Provident were not there. If anything, Provident needs an increase in budget allowance for a community with poor access to health care for the citizenry nearby. I left the meeting as fast as I could to reach the pharmacy before it closed with my free prescription waiting there. It's 6:40pm.

If I could have afforded insurance, the treatment would have taken much less time, would have been much more definitive, taken on much more than a penicillin derivative that failed to cure the problem. It also would not have had to take place in an "emergency room" and I would have attacked the problem much sooner.

my .02
 

Efkie

International
International Member
tried to view the Frontline program but it's not available because it's on sale now.

The key phrase in your post is "every health care model has it's pro's and cons". That is very true so maybe this society needs to ask itself this question.

What cons are we willing to live with in order to accomplish our goal?

This is very important, 90%+ of the population has to sign off on the fact that there are going to be negatives attached to whatever system they decide on.

What's more important is those negatives may affect them or their family members to the point it may interfere with the health care they themselves or their family members receive.

Know what you're signing off on. It may come back to bite you.

The video is still available. Link to video
Regarding the health care model I think the dutch model with some tweaks would work in the US.

Most cost in the system are in the hospital care, the physician/clinical services and prescription drugs according to this report.

What do you think that the government should do ?
 
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BigUnc

Potential Star
Registered
The video is still available. I can rip the videos and Zshare it if you want.
Regarding the health care model I think the dutch model with some tweaks would work in the US.

Most cost in the system are in the hospital care, the physician/clinical services and prescription drugs according to this report.

What do you think that the government should do ?


I would appreciate it if you could post the video.

I'm not against the Dutch model it does have some elements which can be applied here.

I don't see it as what the government is gonna do but what are we gonna do about it as a collective. We as a society will have to address this and assert our will on the pols in Washington, not the other way around.

My 2 cents about health care is that this is a continuing issue that can't be addressed in a single thousand page bill.There are too many variables to say a single program is going to be the answer to everyone's unique medical and financial problems.

I wrote this earlier in this same thread based on the info in QueEx post #38 and thought's post #40


1) Tell the truth about the multitude of reasons why citizens are uninsured.Doing this will give a true picture of the problem enabling that debate to end and to get people focused on solutions.
2)A real effort to cover those eligible but aren't because of,lets face facts, minor bureaucratic reasons on the part of government and the insurance industry.Millions are ready to go on the rolls. DO IT DAMMIT!!!!...NOW!!
3) Those with pre-existing conditions appear to be where the costs are highest and are having the greatest difficulty in obtaining insurance. Place them in a separate pool where everybody contributes to it. This should spread the pain lessoning the tax burden and reducing the cost of private insurance for everyone also since those that are the greatest burden are seperated from the rest.
4) Those that choose not to have insurance are going to have to understand you're pretty much on your own. If you need major medical care the bill is on you. We as a society won't leave you in the gutter to die but when time comes we gonna take all your shit and sell it on ebay or something then garnish any future income til the bill is paid. Don't have a job you say,we'll find something you can do to begin paying the public back.
5) The cost of health care is definitely near the top in importance but should not override the need to get people insurance coverage. This is an ongoing issue and will have to be dealt with in that manner. There is no permanent fix for this, only good long range management will keep cost under control.

If we can get 12 million adults and children covered rapidly what's the big hold up,seriously, this can be done now not in 2013.


The dutch model may be helpful in #3 insuring those with pre-existing conditions. They are a huge cost to the system and if we want to insure them than the cost for them will be higher,therefore, spreading the pain among as many of us is the best way to go. The Dutch method of taking a certain percentage of the first $1000.00 of a persons yearly income is appealing to me. Co-pays at the point of service should be considered also.

For those that can afford it but choose not to get coverage either my suggestion or mandating insurance coverage is acceptable to me.

as far as the rest, immigrants etc., on going dialog to obtain the best possible outcome for them and society is what I would suggest.

BigUnc
 

Fuckallyall

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The for-profit-only US health care industry is spending more than 1.4 million dollars per day to defeat ANY reform of America's broken health care system. 50 million Americans have NO health care coverage. 56% of all personal bankruptcies are due to the inability to pay for life-saving medical operations that the for-profit-only US health care companies refuse to cover. Even if you have health insurance your premium cost have soared more than 35% in the last two years alone.

President Obama's morally responsible & fiscally coherent attempt to start to fix America's fatally flawed health care delivery system is being meet by the most vituperatively vitriolic RepubliKlan hate speech we have seen since the 2008 presidential campaign ended.

"Kill It" is the RepubliKlan mantra about health care for all. The RepubliKlan is not alone in wanting to drive a 'stake in the heart' of ANY reform of the current corrupt health care system. DINO (Democrats In Name Only) like Sen. Joe Lieberman and Sen. Matt Baucus and about 40 "blue-dog" House members, all who have received $$$$ millions from the 'Health Care Mafia', are also wavering in their support of Obama's health care reform plan.

The two videos below are MUST SEES -

In the first video you will see thousands of uninsured people lining up from 4AM in the morning to receive free medical care provided by a non-profit organization and volunteer doctors & dentists.

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DOWNLOAD http://www.divshare.com/download/7969789-179

In the second video you will hear an interview with a top echelon 'Health Care Mafia' insider who spent 15 years with the 'Health Care Mafia' deliberately & willfully ripping-off and denying health care coverage to as many Americans as they could. The motive? Profit at any cost! Even the cost of dead Americans.

profile_pic1.jpg


WATCH VIDEO http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html


hc-serious.jpg





I know I sound like a broken record, but I have yet to receive an answer. What gives anyone the right to compel me to fund thier life ? How is that not involuntary servitude, which is forbidden by the Constitution (unless you posit that congressional action is due process, which is meant by the legislative reports to mean prison by jury).

Also, the debate is really about turning healthcare financing into healthcare. Once you get rid of the private sector, then it will be the gov. deciding solely when and where you can get helthcare from, not just what procedures you can get done. Also, the US may be listed as 31st on the list, but in outcomes, and wait times, we are Number one, according to the same WHO report that is being bandied about.

Also, the public mandate is just a backdoor tax increase to young folks, who will be the least likely to use the system.

Just an example of the future under socialized (or single payer) medicine. In England, if you are over 59 and a half, there are certain heart procedures yo just don't get.
 

Efkie

International
International Member
I know I sound like a broken record, but I have yet to receive an answer. What gives anyone the right to compel me to fund thier life ? How is that not involuntary servitude, which is forbidden by the Constitution (unless you posit that congressional action is due process, which is meant by the legislative reports to mean prison by jury).

Also, the debate is really about turning healthcare financing into healthcare. Once you get rid of the private sector, then it will be the gov. deciding solely when and where you can get helthcare from, not just what procedures you can get done. Also, the US may be listed as 31st on the list, but in outcomes, and wait times, we are Number one, according to the same WHO report that is being bandied about.

Also, the public mandate is just a backdoor tax increase to young folks, who will be the least likely to use the system.

Just an example of the future under socialized (or single payer) medicine. In England, if you are over 59 and a half, there are certain heart procedures yo just don't get.

The way you phrased that question is IMO not constructive thinking.
Correct me if i'm wrong but you seem have an issue that the insurance fee you would pay in the new health care system might be used for treatment on other people besides you ? Am I correct with this ? If not let us know and elaborate ?

Let me ask you this.
What is important for you regarding healthcare reform ?
 

Efkie

International
International Member
U.S. Health Care Costs

Background

2007, U.S. health care spending was about $7,421 per resident and accounted for 16.2% of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP); this is among the highest of all industrialized countries. Total health care expenditures grew at an annual rate of 6.1 percent in 2007, a slower rate than recent years, yet still outpacing inflation and the growth in national income. Absent reform, there is general agreement that health costs are likely to continue to rise in the foreseeable future. Many analysts have cited controlling health care costs as a key tenet for broader economic stability and growth, and President Obama has made cost control a focus of health reform efforts under way.

Although Americans benefit from many of the investments in health care, the recent rapid cost growth, coupled with an overall economic slowdown and rising federal deficit, is placing great strains on the systems used to finance health care, including private employer-sponsored health insurance coverage and public insurance programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. Since 1999, employer-sponsored health coverage premiums have increased by 119 percent, placing increasing cost burdens on employers and workers. [2] With workers’ wages growing at a much slower pace than health care costs, many face difficulty in affording out-of-pocket spending.

Government programs, such as Medicare and Medicaid, account for a significant share of health care spending. Public health expenditures made up about 46% of the health care dollar in 2007, with the remainder split between private and out-of-pocket spending (42% and 12%, respectively). Medicare spending has grown at a slightly lower rate, on average, than private health insurance spending, at about 9.0 vs. 10.1% annually respectively between 1970 and 2003. [3] Medicaid expenditures, similarly, have grown at slower rate than private spending, though the current economic recession is likely to increase the number of enrollees in Medicaid and therefore increase Medicaid spending. [4]

How is the U.S. health care dollar spent?

As shown in the figure below, hospital care accounts for the largest share (31%) of health expenditures. Physician services are the next largest item, comprising one-fifth of the national health spending. Prescription drugs, while accounting for only 10% of total expenditures, have been one of the fastest-growing segments.
National Health Expenditures, 2007

160bujl.jpg


Total = $2.241 Trillion


What is driving health care costs?


Controlling health care expenditures requires a solid understanding of the factors that are driving the growth in spending. While there is disagreement on exactly what those are, some of the major factors to consider are:

* Prescription drugs and technology – Spending on prescription drugs and new medical technologies has been cited as the primary contributor to the increase in overall health spending. Some analysts state that the availability of more expensive, state-of-the-art drugs and technological services fuels health care spending not only because the development costs of these products must be recouped by industry but also because they generate consumer demand for more intense, costly services even if they are not necessarily cost-effective. [5]

* Chronic disease – The nature of health care in the U.S. has changed dramatically over the past century with longer life spans and greater prevalence of chronic illnesses. This has placed tremendous demands on the health care system, particularly an increased need for treatment of ongoing illnesses and long-term care services such as nursing homes; it is estimated that health care costs for chronic disease treatment account for over 75% of national health expenditures. [6]

* Aging of the population – Health expenses rise with age and as the baby boomers are now in their middle years, some say that caring for this growing population has raised costs. This trend will continue as the baby boomers will begin qualifying for Medicare in 2011 and many of the costs are shifted to the public sector. However, experts agree that aging of the population contributes minimally to the high growth rate of health care spending. [7]

* Administrative costs – It is estimated that at least 7% of health care expenditures are for administrative costs (e.g. marketing, billing) and this portion is much lower in the Medicare program (<2%), which is operated by the federalgovernment. [3] Some argue that the mixed public-private system creates overhead costs and large profits that are fueling health care spending.

What are the major proposals to contain costs?


The start of a new administration and the economic recession present a new window of opportunity for health care reform and for controlling health costs. However, since the 1960s, the nation’s efforts to control health care costs have not had much long-term effect, prompting a debate over what proposals are actually able to sustainably reduce costs. [8] One effort, the advent of “managed care,” which represented a shift towards greater control over utilization of services, did initially seem to generate savings as managed care practices became widespread throughout the late 1980s and 1990s. However, spending has since rebounded sharply as the health sector seems to have exhausted one-time savings and a backlash loosened many managed care policies, particularly restrictions on consumer choice. The different proposals currently in the policy arena are divided broadly by debate over a stronger role for government negotiation or market-based models relying on competitive forces.

* Investment in information technology (IT) – Greater use of technology, such as electronic medical records (EMR), has been promoted and researched for its potential to more efficiently share information and reduce overhead costs. $19 billion in federal funding has already been allocated to uniformly upgrade health IT, a major component of the Obama administration’s health reform plan, indicating that the movement to invest in IT has gained significant traction.

* Improving quality and efficiency – There are a number of initiatives in play that aim to help make the health care system more efficient and higher quality, and consequently more cost-effective. Overall, decreasing unwarranted variation in medical practice and unnecessary care is seen as a priority, particularly geographic variation, since higher spending on health care in certain geographical areas does not correspond to better health outcomes. Some experts estimate that up to 30% of health care is unnecessary, emphasizing the need to streamline the health system and eliminate this needless spending.

* Adjusting provider compensation – The current system of provider compensation pays physicians a given fee per procedure or test, for example as dictated by the Medicare Physician Fee Schedule guidelines for the value of over 10,000 physician services. Currently, there are proposals to revamp some provider payments to ensure that fees paid to physicians reward value and health outcomes, rather than volume of care. This is meant to eliminate unnecessary care and thereby decrease costs. Comparative effectiveness research (CER) is being increasingly emphasized as a means to determine which treatments are most effective for given conditions, in order to provide doctors with the necessary information to make the best choices for patients’ care.

* Government regulation – Citing the success of the Medicare program in controlling per capita spending over its history and warning that market-based approaches combined with greater individual financial responsibility can disadvantage those with limited financial resources and create barriers to needed care, some policymakers favor more government involvement in the health care sector. Critics argue that such regulation stifles innovation and that market-based approaches are more cost-effective and will provide consumers with a wider range of choices.

* Prevention - The burden of chronic diseases, such as diabetes and cardiovascular disease, has risen dramatically; both of these chronic conditions are known to be correlated with obesity, smoking, and diet, and are very expensive to treat over long periods of time. Proposals have been put forward to emphasize prevention by providing financial incentives to workers to engage in wellness and prevention, in order to decrease the prevalence of these conditions and avoid incurring the long-term costs of treatment. However, it is unclear how much prevention programs will decrease costs, since paradoxically healthier people will likely live—and use the health system—longer. For those already suffering from chronic diseases, disease management strives to improve and streamline the treatment regimen for common, chronic health conditions.

* Increasing consumer involvement in purchasing – Supporters of “consumer-driven” health care believe that greater price transparency would make consumers more price sensitive and more prudent purchasers and thus save consumers and employers money. One of the major forms currently is tax-favored “health reimbursement accounts (HRA),” to which employers contribute funds that are managed by the employee to spend on primary health care as she directs. Critics of the consumer-directed approach raise concerns about the potential impacts that the higher cost-sharing would have on lower income people and about the potential for these new arrangements to be disproportionately used by healthy people, shifting sicker groups to more expensive forms of insurance.

* Altering the tax preference for employer-sponsored insurance – Currently, employees do not pay income or payroll tax on money employers spend on their health insurance, regardless of the cost of those benefits. Some current health reform proposals suggest eliminating or changing the tax exclusion for employer-sponsored health care to help finance the costs of expanding coverage as well as reducing incentives for the most generous and therefore expensive health plans. One possibility is that the tax exclusion would be capped at the value of benefits received by members of Congress, and employees opting for more expensive health plans would be taxed on the difference. Those against eliminating the tax exclusion worry doing so could drive up the cost of health insurance to workers and disproportionately affect smaller companies and those with an older workforce, who tend to pay higher premiums.

Costs have emerged as a central element of any national health reform effort. As policymakers move forward with plans to enact comprehensive health reform, costs will surely continue to be at the forefront of the surrounding policy debates.

Source
 

COINTELPRO

Transnational Member
Registered
I don't see any politician selling the fact that rates for health insurance will decrease because of reform for everybody, uncompensated care should decrease significantly for all hospitals. The hospitals should be able to charge less for services to insurance companies.

Plus the public option, will push rates lower for everybody due to low administrative costs.

:dance::dance:
 
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Fuckallyall

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The way you phrased that question is IMO not constructive thinking.
Correct me if i'm wrong but you seem have an issue that the insurance fee you would pay in the new health care system might be used for treatment on other people besides you ? Am I correct with this ? If not let us know and elaborate ?

Let me ask you this.
What is important for you regarding healthcare reform ?

Please stop dodging the question by trying to deflect and answer it. Don't be like thoughtone and evade the REAL inconvienient truths about life.
 

Fuckallyall

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I don't see any politician selling the fact that rates for health insurance will decrease because of reform for everybody, uncompensated care should decrease significantly for all hospitals. The hospitals should be able to charge less for services to insurance companies.

Plus the public option, will push rates lower for everybody due to low administrative costs.

:dance::dance:

I doubt it, for you will be increasing both the amount of people, and the amount of services provided, especially for those who previously had no access to the pool of money (I means services), who will logically make use of those services. This also will include the millions of illegal immigrants who will receive Amnesty (I mean "a path to citizenship") under the next phase of policy "Change". It's like me bringing more people into the family, many of them without jobs, then thinking that I will pay LESS for groceries because I am making the children who don't eat as much (yet) pay towords groceries as well. It defies logic.
 

Fuckallyall

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So as an employee of the financial industry you have benefited from tax payer’s money you hypocrite!

Amswer the question, or are you egotistically incapable of actual discussion. Your name calling doesn't (with me at least) cover the fact that you have not answered a simple question after several prompts. You fail.
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Amswer the question, or are you egotistically incapable of actual discussion. Your name calling doesn't (with me at least) cover the fact that you have not answered a simple question after several prompts. You fail.

Ok, I fail. Do you work in the financial industry?
 

muckraker10021

Superstar *****
BGOL Investor
<img src="http://www.bartcop.com/hc-pulling-plug.jpg">

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<font face="arial black" size="6" color="#D90000">The Swiss Menace</font><br><font face="tahoma" size="4" color="#0000FF"><b>Every Wealthy Country other than the United States <br>Guarantees Essential Care to All its Citizens</b></font>
<b>
By PAUL KRUGMAN

August 17, 2009</b>

It was the blooper heard round the world. In an editorial denouncing Democratic health reform plans, Investor’s Business Daily tried to frighten its readers by declaring that in Britain, where the government runs health care, the handicapped physicist Stephen Hawking “wouldn’t have a chance,” because the National Health Service would consider his life “essentially worthless.”

Professor Hawking, who was born in Britain, has lived there all his life, and has been well cared for by the National Health Service, was not amused.

Besides being vile and stupid, however, the editorial was beside the point. Investor’s Business Daily would like you to believe that Obamacare would turn America into Britain — or, rather, a dystopian fantasy version of Britain. The screamers on talk radio and Fox News would have you believe that the plan is to turn America into the Soviet Union. But the truth is that the plans on the table would, roughly speaking, turn America into Switzerland — which may be occupied by lederhosen-wearing holey-cheese eaters, but wasn’t a socialist hellhole the last time I looked.

Let’s talk about health care around the advanced world.

Every wealthy country other than the United States guarantees essential care to all its citizens. There are, however, wide variations in the specifics, with three main approaches taken.

In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false. Like every system, the National Health Service has problems, but over all it appears to provide quite good care while spending only about 40 percent as much per person as we do. By the way, our own Veterans Health Administration, which is run somewhat like the British health service, also manages to combine quality care with low costs.

The second route to universal coverage leaves the actual delivery of health care in private hands, but the government pays most of the bills. That’s how Canada and, in a more complex fashion, France do it. It’s also a system familiar to most Americans, since even those of us not yet on Medicare have parents and relatives who are.

Again, you hear a lot of horror stories about such systems, most of them false. French health care is excellent. Canadians with chronic conditions are more satisfied with their system than their U.S. counterparts. And Medicare is highly popular, as evidenced by the tendency of town-hall protesters to demand that the government keep its hands off the program.

Finally, the third route to universal coverage relies on private insurance companies, using a combination of regulation and subsidies to ensure that everyone is covered. Switzerland offers the clearest example: everyone is required to buy insurance, insurers can’t discriminate based on medical history or pre-existing conditions, and lower-income citizens get government help in paying for their policies.

In this country, the Massachusetts health reform more or less follows the Swiss model; costs are running higher than expected, but the reform has greatly reduced the number of uninsured. And the most common form of health insurance in America, employment-based coverage, actually has some “Swiss” aspects: to avoid making benefits taxable, employers have to follow rules that effectively rule out discrimination based on medical history and subsidize care for lower-wage workers.

So where does Obamacare fit into all this? Basically, it’s a plan to Swissify America, using regulation and subsidies to ensure universal coverage.

If we were starting from scratch we probably wouldn’t have chosen this route. True “socialized medicine” would undoubtedly cost less, and a straightforward extension of Medicare-type coverage to all Americans would probably be cheaper than a Swiss-style system. That’s why I and others believe that a true public option competing with private insurers is extremely important: otherwise, rising costs could all too easily undermine the whole effort.

But a Swiss-style system of universal coverage would be a vast improvement on what we have now. And we already know that such systems work.

So we can do this. At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html

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Lamarr

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Registered
Every Wealthy Country other than the United States Guarantees Essential Care to All its Citizens
By PAUL KRUGMAN

First off, Krugman is a Dunce! He & other Keynesian economists are ass-backwards when analyzing data. Case & point, this nation is 12 Trillion dollars in debt, yet his title suggests this is a wealthy nation. Wake up, we are the most indebted nation! We only have the 'appearance' of wealth because other nations still accept "our paper money" for their goods. But foreigners are quickly realizing its printing press money.

Bottom line, other nations can afford national healthcare because of the low debt-load of those nations ie. Norway, Sweden etc.
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
First off, Krugman is a Dunce! He & other Keynesian economists are ass-backwards when analyzing data. Case & point, this nation is 12 Trillion dollars in debt, yet his title suggests this is a wealthy nation. Wake up, we are the most indebted nation! We only have the 'appearance' of wealth because other nations still accept "our paper money" for their goods. But foreigners are quickly realizing its printing press money.

Bottom line, other nations can afford national healthcare because of the low debt-load of those nations ie. Norway, Sweden etc.

Lamarr, do you know the difference between the government debt and person debt?
 

Fuckallyall

Support BGOL
Registered
Ok, I fail. Do you work in the financial industry?

Answer my question, then we can proceed. I will not allow you to ignore the truth and turn the issue at hand around. Unlike others, I will stand my ground on reason. For the fifth time, answer the question.
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Answer my question, then we can proceed. I will not allow you to ignore the truth and turn the issue at hand around. Unlike others, I will stand my ground on reason. For the fifth time, answer the question.

The truth is you are working in the industry that has received the largess of government monies, yet you are as hypocritical as those tea baggers that claim they don’t want the government involved in their health care, yet are receiving social security and Medicare. That’s the truth!
 

Lamarr

Star
Registered
So now that you have awakened from your right wing, my mistake, libertarian rant, restate yourself.

i'm back, gotta pay the bills on the weekends. Legalize drugs, End the Wars, Protect our civil liberties and by all means, be fiscally responsible!
 

Efkie

International
International Member
I know I sound like a broken record, but I have yet to receive an answer. What gives anyone the right to compel me to fund thier life ? How is that not involuntary servitude, which is forbidden by the Constitution (unless you posit that congressional action is due process, which is meant by the legislative reports to mean prison by jury).

Well it the same thing that compels you to pay for wars or sidewalks you never use or to pay for a justice system to convict & jail people you don't know or to pay for roads thousands of miles away so trucks bring you goods.[/B]


Also, the debate is really about turning healthcare financing into healthcare. Once you get rid of the private sector, then it will be the gov. deciding solely when and where you can get helthcare from, not just what procedures you can get done.
Also, the US may be listed as 31st on the list, but in outcomes, and wait times, we are Number one, according to the
same WHO report that is being bandied about.


Maybe. But when the insurance company's will find out a way to to revoke your insurance while you're waiting on the operation table it will mean nothing. Tell this to all people who had to take a 2nd mortgage on their house.

Also, the public mandate is just a backdoor tax increase to young folks, who will be the least likely to use the system.

Just an example of the future under socialized (or single payer) medicine. In England, if you are over 59 and a half, there are certain heart procedures yo just don't get.

SO now that I have answered your question answer mine.
What is important for you regarding healthcare reform ?
 

Fuckallyall

Support BGOL
Registered
SO now that I have answered your question answer mine.
What is important for you regarding healthcare reform ?

Thanks for your attempt at an answer. Here goes

1. As for your arguement about sidewalks,wars and roads, they are equal use for all, and are funded mostly by use taxes (I live in Maryland, and $.50/gallon tax on gas funds roads for the most part, and real estate taxes funds the sidewalks). Those decisions are made by the local governments, needing a large amount of input from the people. We are spending our own money in ways that we see fit locally. Someone from Wisconsin cannot come to our town and dictate how our sidewalks should look and how our highways should be routed. There is no constiutional mandate for them, and the states have the option to build most roads. Wars are constituionally allowed, although we have abdicated our responsibilites to a great degree. , IMO.

2. There is NO constitutional mandate for healthcare funded by others. You, like many, misread the Article of the Constitution that states "provide for the general welfare of the United States". That meant to preserve the republic, not provide for the individual needs of people. The founding fathers knew this, and specifically made note of making sure that they did not mean to do what we are now contemplating. Thomas Jefferson famously said that "a government powerful enough to give you everything you need is strong enough to take everything you have". The whole purpose of the constiution was to limit federal power, not expand it. It is stated to such a degree that the 10th Amendment speifically states that "any powers not enumerated in these articles are reserved to the states, and the people, respectively".

3. More to come, got some home repair to do (maybe I should have others support that too.

BTW, this debate is not about health care reform the way you think it is. This is looking to eradicate healthcare finance issues and to replace it with government ruin health care.

In short, there is no constitutional mandate to compel me to fund the life of others just because you and others think it would be nice. Utopia's are usually tyrannies that you agree with.
 

Efkie

International
International Member
Thanks for your attempt at an answer. Here goes

1. As for your arguement about sidewalks,wars and roads, they are equal use for all, and are funded mostly by use taxes (I live in Maryland, and $.50/gallon tax on gas funds roads for the most part, and real estate taxes funds the sidewalks). Those decisions are made by the local governments, needing a large amount of input from the people. We are spending our own money in ways that we see fit locally. Someone from Wisconsin cannot come to our town and dictate how our sidewalks should look and how our highways should be routed. There is no constiutional mandate for them, and the states have the option to build most roads. Wars are constituionally allowed, although we have abdicated our responsibilites to a great degree. , IMO.

2. There is NO constitutional mandate for healthcare funded by others. You, like many, misread the Article of the Constitution that states "provide for the general welfare of the United States". That meant to preserve the republic, not provide for the individual needs of people. The founding fathers knew this, and specifically made note of making sure that they did not mean to do what we are now contemplating. Thomas Jefferson famously said that "a government powerful enough to give you everything you need is strong enough to take everything you have". The whole purpose of the constiution was to limit federal power, not expand it. It is stated to such a degree that the 10th Amendment speifically states that "any powers not enumerated in these articles are reserved to the states, and the people, respectively".

3. More to come, got some home repair to do (maybe I should have others support that too.

BTW, this debate is not about health care reform the way you think it is. This is looking to eradicate healthcare finance issues and to replace it with government ruin health care.

In short, there is no constitutional mandate to compel me to fund the life of others just because you and others think it would be nice. Utopia's are usually tyrannies that you agree with.

Good...so you don't approve of what they have come up with.
So what do you think that the goverment should do to improve the healthcare situation ? :cool:
 

Fuckallyall

Support BGOL
Registered
Good...so you don't approve of what they have come up with.
So what do you think that the goverment should do to improve the healthcare situation ? :cool:

Not much, as it is not the job of congress to parent the nation. It's only job is to make sure the republic can function. The state, at most, is responsible for it's citizens.
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Good...so you don't approve of what they have come up with.
So what do you think that the goverment should do to improve the healthcare situation ? :cool:

As for your arguement about sidewalks,wars and roads, they are equal use for all, and are funded mostly by use taxes (I live in Maryland, and $.50/gallon tax on gas funds roads for the most part, and real estate taxes funds the sidewalks). Those decisions are made by the local governments, needing a large amount of input from the people. We are spending our own money in ways that we see fit locally. Someone from Wisconsin cannot come to our town and dictate how our sidewalks should look and how our highways should be routed.

So you want to play that game.

The FDA, FEDERAL government maintains NATIONAL standards for foods and drugs. This comes out of your FEDERAL taxes. Prior to this people DIED from haphazard if they were lucky to even have standards for the stuff they put in their bodies. This program was begun by a progressive republican, Teddy Roosevelt. Do you want to repeal that federal program? Read, The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair. It was required reading way back when I was in high school.

The FCC. Despite what Faux Soonze, The Weakly Standard and other wing nut command centers spout, the FCC maintains standards for national communication systems. Frequencies in which you can transmit, video and audio standards for broadcast equipment as well as monitoring standards such as inappropriate content over public airways.

NHTSA, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. This FEDERAL program assures that your car, as well as other transportation related systems are safe.

FAA, a NATIONAL program created in 1926 to regulate aircraft.

Shall I go on?

So if you grow your own food, don’t listen or watch and TV or radio or use a cell phone, only walk or don’t fly, your tax dollars are being used for something you won’t use.

There is no constiutional mandate for them, and the states have the option to build most roads

This is the fundamental flaw of the right’s arguments. The constitution is not a document stating what can be done, it is a document blueprinting what cannot be done. The Bill of Rights clearly lays these out. The Supreme Court, based on their political make up at any given time interprets these rights. “Congress shall make no law…, …shall not be…” The genius of the constitution is that we can make the government anything we want within those limits and the congress can enact any law, whether labeled socialism by some or not!

It is stated to such a degree that the 10th Amendment speifically states that "any powers not enumerated in these articles are reserved to the states, and the people, respectively".

Well the Fourteenth amendment blew that up didn’t it? The southern states were using the tenth amendment to prevent your ancestors from having human rights. Do you think they interpreted it wrongly?

Thomas Jefferson famously said that "a government powerful enough to give you everything you need is strong enough to take everything you have". The whole purpose of the constiution was to limit federal power, not expand it.

The whole purpose of the constitution was to limit federal power as regards to PERSONAL rights. Check the ninth amendment.

Benjamin Rush, signatory to the Declaration of Independence and arguably along with Benjamin Franklin the only two true friends of the Black man of the so called founding fathers who live their lives as far as history documents them with out hypocrisy, not owning slaves and then advocating for the freedom of all men as Thomas Jefferson did, was reportedly to have stated:

"The Constitution of this Republic should make special provision for medical freedom. To restrict the art of healing to one class will constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic."

"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship and force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what the dictating outfit offers."

Your right wing interpretation of historic events limits your views of changing events as well as exposes your selfishness which is intrinsic of so called ‘conservative’ values. If you take the constitution in the strict way in which it was written originally, from a right wing point of view, you as a “Black” person, if you are “Black” would not even be posting on this site!
 

muckraker10021

Superstar *****
BGOL Investor
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READ: 3,010 Patients wait in parking lot for free medical care

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Thoughtone your attempt to illuminate the difference between civilization or barbarism to some of the peeps on this porn board is admirable but in all instances, with rare exceptions, your efforts will ultimately be futile.

The “I Got Mine” so “Fuck You” attitude promulgated 24/7 in the Reich-Wing corporate media has had its intended effect. Dumb motherfuckers like (RepubliKlan mascot “Joe the Plumber”) who have no clue why safe drinking water is coming out of their kitchen sink, become sycophants for Billion dollar corporate interest like the “Health Care Mafia”.

Seven “Health Care Mafia”companies control 80% of the private health insurance market. The other 20% of companies sub-contract through the Big Seven. The Big Seven are also ludicrously exempted from anti-trust prosecution. As a result of the anti-trust exemption, the “Health Care Mafia” companies operate as an oligarchy. At their meetings they set a floor but no ceiling for insurance rates, they drop customers days before critical operations are scheduled to take place, they give their bureaucrats million dollar bonuses predicated on how much health care they can DENY (refuse to pay for ) & for how many people they can kick off the insurance.

The collusion is obvious but state or federal prosecutors can’t go after them due to the anti-trust exemption they essentially purchased from the congress. It’s no accident that there are four “Health Care Mafia” lobbyist for every member of congress. It’s no accident that the “Health Care Mafia” as of Aug. 1st 2009 is spending 2,000,000 per day to “destroy” any significant change in their racket.

Why the basic facts about this industry are so hard to comprehend for the so-called “average American”???- is indicative of the Dumbing Down of America brought to us courtesy of the “media of mass deception” specifically television; <s>FOX</s> FAKE News, Lou Dobbs @ CNN etc.



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A Day in the Life of Joe RepubliKlan


Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a
contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that in addition to his federally subsidized
student loans, he attended a state funded university. Joe also forgets that his World War 2 veteran father got his Pharmacology Degree only because of the GI Bill that the Republicans voted against.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."


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