Ground Zero: Mosque; or No Mosque

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
2. You speak of concrete evidence like the Muslim faith believe in a western way of law.

I could be well wrong and we all know the poster is quite capable of exressing his point of view but seems to me he was asking how can you simply "presume" to know what a Muslim, or anyone else for that matter, thinks? YOU SAID, "everyone who disagrees with the mosque, is questioning the Cordova house motives."
- How do you know what their motives are, without any "evidence" ???

- If you're saying there is evidence of mal-intent, then what is it ???​

If there is no concrete (as in something tangible as opposed to your mere suppositions; something that you can show others; or, as your girlfriend might say, something she can feel, etc.), then how can you simply conclude that their motives are bad ? ? ? How?


(A) What good is reaching out to us, if they are unable to hear our point of view, and act accordingly? (B) That is enough "concrete evidence" for me to see that this isn't about reaching out to other faiths.

  • C'mon Bruh. By your own words - YOU have concluded that what YOU believe, is being ignored. In other words, Your way is the truth and the light and theirs, darkness. That is, when you say, "even if they reach out to us (YOU), they are unable to hear our (YOUR) point" = does that not really mean that unless they accept YOUR WAY, their reaching out will simply be in vain ???

    • Is that not the clearest sign of YOUR religious intolerance ???

    • Is not our entire system actually predicated upon the notion that there IS tolerance of religious beliefs ???

  • Does tolerance of religious beliefs necessarily mean the destruction of the underlying political system ??? If so, have you not been living a huge lie ???



QueEx
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
2. You speak of concrete evidence like the Muslim faith believe in a western way of law. What good is reaching out to us, if they are unable to hear our point of view, and act accordingly? That is enough "concrete evidence" for me to see that this isn't about reaching out to other faiths. This is about marking their territory. Like I've said many times before in this thread, there are ways to reach out to America. However, this group want their way, and they know what's better for us, right?
So it's not about hearing a different, opposing point of view (your? Are you in NY?) but concession. That does seem to be the conservative way of doing business. It's not enough to listen to what you say but you have to do as I say or you're not listening.
Marking their territory? It's their land, as long as what they do is legal, let them do as they will. This group has a reputation of being a moderate, modern group so much so the imam worked for the Bush Administration. But now, they have nefarious, anti-American motives?
They have their right to build it, any opposition has a right to protest it but it ends there. This isn't weeks and weeks worth of news material.


3. I find it funny that the left is so adamant towards this issue. God forbid a cross being showed next to Obama on a photo op...

To start, I don't care about "The Left". A wacko is wacko whatever team he claims. But your example is incredibly false since Obama, like every other President, routinely makes appearances in front of religious groups (usually but not always Christian) with very little, if any, controversy.
Do some parties make a stink about religious iconography on public property? Yes and they should but this is a totally different situation and another vintage AAA straw man argument.



Well for one, before 9-11, damn near anyone could get a work visa to come here. Not to mention, the open border to our north, in which, lets any "worthy" person come in from any third world country. Just the overall immigration situation.

:hmm:Break this down. How this relate to Al Quaida? Are there terrorist mad they have a harder time getting work visas (bombs are cheap, I guess)?

I could be well wrong and we all know the poster is quite capable of exressing his point of view but seems to me he was asking how can you simply "presume" to know what a Muslim, or anyone else for that matter, thinks? YOU SAID, "everyone who disagrees with the mosque, is questioning the Cordova house motives."
- How do you know what their motives are, without any "evidence" ???

- If you're saying there is evidence of mal-intent, then what is it ???​

If there is no concrete (as in something tangible as opposed to your mere suppositions; something that you can show others; or, as your girlfriend might say, something she can feel, etc.), then how can you simply conclude that their motives are bad ? ? ? How?

Thank you.



  • C'mon Bruh. By your own words - YOU have concluded that what YOU believe, is being ignored. In other words, Your way is the truth and the light and theirs, darkness. That is, when you say, "even if they reach out to us (YOU), they are unable to hear our (YOUR) point" = does that not really mean that unless they accept YOUR WAY, their reaching out will simply be in vain ???

    • Is that not the clearest sign of YOUR religious intolerance ???

    • Is not our entire system actually predicated upon the notion that there IS tolerance of religious beliefs ???

  • Does tolerance of religious beliefs necessarily mean the destruction of the underlying political system ??? If so, have you not been living a huge lie ???



QueEx


:yes: We need a smiley for :wow:.
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I could be well wrong and we all know the poster is quite capable of exressing his point of view but seems to me he was asking how can you simply "presume" to know what a Muslim, or anyone else for that matter, thinks? YOU SAID, "everyone who disagrees with the mosque, is questioning the Cordova house motives."
- How do you know what their motives are, without any "evidence" ???

- If you're saying there is evidence of mal-intent, then what is it ???​

If there is no concrete (as in something tangible as opposed to your mere suppositions; something that you can show others; or, as your girlfriend might say, something she can feel, etc.), then how can you simply conclude that their motives are bad ? ? ? How?




  • C'mon Bruh. By your own words - YOU have concluded that what YOU believe, is being ignored. In other words, Your way is the truth and the light and theirs, darkness. That is, when you say, "even if they reach out to us (YOU), they are unable to hear our (YOUR) point" = does that not really mean that unless they accept YOUR WAY, their reaching out will simply be in vain ???

    • Is that not the clearest sign of YOUR religious intolerance ???

    • Is not our entire system actually predicated upon the notion that there IS tolerance of religious beliefs ???

  • Does tolerance of religious beliefs necessarily mean the destruction of the underlying political system ??? If so, have you not been living a huge lie ???



QueEx

1. The best evidence I can go by is the lack of sensibility, the group in question, has for the history of the site in question. Not to mention, the logistical issues that consist WITHIN the Muslim community IN New York. Last time I check, most of the Muslim population live outside of Manhattan Island. They also claim that they are trying to reach out to the American people. If that was the case, wouldn't they hear what the American people distaste for this particular issue? Wouldn't they understand that we, as Americans, every religion/race/ethnic background were hurt when 9-11 happened? Trust me, if this group was on the up and up, you would have Christian leaders cosigning this effort.

2. How can I be intolerant if I want the dialogue to take place? Intolerance is ignoring everything because you believe your beliefs are superior than everyone else. Of all people, the Codova house is the ones who are being intolerant.

So it's not about hearing a different, opposing point of view (your? Are you in NY?) but concession. That does seem to be the conservative way of doing business. It's not enough to listen to what you say but you have to do as I say or you're not listening.
Marking their territory? It's their land, as long as what they do is legal, let them do as they will. This group has a reputation of being a moderate, modern group so much so the imam worked for the Bush Administration. But now, they have nefarious, anti-American motives?
They have their right to build it, any opposition has a right to protest it but it ends there. This isn't weeks and weeks worth of news material.




To start, I don't care about "The Left". A wacko is wacko whatever team he claims. But your example is incredibly false since Obama, like every other President, routinely makes appearances in front of religious groups (usually but not always Christian) with very little, if any, controversy.
Do some parties make a stink about religious iconography on public property? Yes and they should but this is a totally different situation and another vintage AAA straw man argument.





:hmm:Break this down. How this relate to Al Quaida? Are there terrorist mad they have a harder time getting work visas (bombs are cheap, I guess)?



Thank you.






:yes: We need a smiley for :wow:.

1. This is the last time I'm going to say it, THIS DEBATE IS NOT ABOUT THE RIGHT TO HAVE A MOSQUE. Why are you still on that?

Since you want to bring up Bush, do you think that this would happen under Bush? Really?

2. The cross reference was towards the Georgetown incident.

3. If you don't know, then you would never get it anyway. How do you think the hijackers got here in the first place? Magic?
 

Liquidheater

Potential Star
Registered
Re: Ground Zero: Mosque; or No Mo

The property owner has stated the intended purpose for the location.

The public officials have stated that the owner in acting within the law.

Those who don't like or who are not at ease with the plans for the property must accept that their position and platform has been established and debated.

Those folks can now go on with the rest of their lives being comforted by their exercise of free speech and their display of public dissent.

If these folks continue to voice their personal dissatisfaction, then at some level their public waling will reach a point of rebel rousing and/or just useless whining.

Let us move on.
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Re: Ground Zero: Mosque; or No Mo

The property owner has stated the intended purpose for the location.

The public officials have stated that the owner in acting within the law.

Those who don't like or who are not at ease with the plans for the property must accept that their position and platform has been established and debated.

Those folks can now go on with the rest of their lives being comforted by their exercise of free speech and their display of public dissent.

If these folks continue to voice their personal dissatisfaction, then at some level their public waling will reach a point of rebel rousing and/or just useless whining.

Let us move on.

I'm sure something else would happen next week to piss off the same 80% of Americans who don't like this situation.
 

Alaskanredman

Star
Registered
Re: Ground Zero: Mosque; or No Mo

I'm sure something else would happen next week to piss off the same 80% of Americans who don't like this situation.

yeah, one of those protesters will assault a Muslim and get charged with an actually crime. :eek:

The outrage will be tremendous. People will question why the Muslim provoked the assault. Phony stats will come out showing how Muslims have increased crime.
 
Last edited:

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Re: Ground Zero: Mosque; or No Mo

1. The best evidence I can go by is the lack of sensibility, the group in question, has for the history of the site in question. Not to mention, the logistical issues that consist WITHIN the Muslim community IN New York. Last time I check, most of the Muslim population live outside of Manhattan Island. They also claim that they are trying to reach out to the American people. If that was the case, wouldn't they hear what the American people distaste for this particular issue? Wouldn't they understand that we, as Americans, every religion/race/ethnic background were hurt when 9-11 happened? Trust me, if this group was on the up and up, you would have Christian leaders cosigning this effort.

Then you have no evidence just supposition based on your own prejudice.
Since it's not a Muslim-exclusive center the logistics of NY Muslims isn't really relevent (though I think they understand that better than you).
Reaching out and listening does not equate concession. I can listen to you and still not do what you want me to do. Since when do people's feelings trump another people's rights?
Every segment of the society was affected including Muslims, do you understand that?
So you need Christians to co-sign them for validation? What kind of sh!t is that? Even so...
http://www.mpac.org/article.php?id=1203
70+ SoCal Interfaith Leaders Release Statement Supporting NYC Park 51 Center at Press Conference
August 21, 2010
A diverse group of more than 40 prominent interfaith leaders joined the Muslim Pubic Affairs Council for a press conference yesterday in front of the Islamic Center of Southern California, where they released a statement signed by 71 local faith leaders in support of the Park 51 Center project in Lower Manhattan and in defense of religious freedom and inclusion for all Americans.

The faith leaders represented more than a dozen faiths and denominations, including Roman Catholic, Jewish, United Methodist, African Methodist Episcopalian, Presbyterian, 7th Day Adventist, Quaker, Unitarian Universalist, humanist, athiest and Muslim.

"President Obama said he would not comment on the wisdom of building a community center in lower Manhattan," said Stephen Rohde, co-president of the Progressive Jewish Alliance and chair of the Interfaith Communities United for Justice and Peace. "We today are commenting on the wisdom. It is wise, it is right, it is good, for that mosque and community center to be built in that place."


2. How can I be intolerant if I want the dialogue to take place? Intolerance is ignoring everything because you believe your beliefs are superior than everyone else. Of all people, the Codova house is the ones who are being intolerant.

I wasn't the person calling you "intolerant" (I don't believe in the concept of "tolerance") but I'll jump in here.
So the organizers of Park 51 are intolerant because they don't bow to the wishes of the masses? You are really pulling some major Reed Richards moves in this thread, AAA.
They already made a concession by changing the name from "Cordoba House" to a more New Yorky, assimilationist-sounding name in "Park 51". But clearly the only thing that will appease many/most of these people will be abandoning the building of the center.



1. This is the last time I'm going to say it, THIS DEBATE IS NOT ABOUT THE RIGHT TO HAVE A MOSQUE. Why are you still on that?

Since you want to bring up Bush, do you think that this would happen under Bush? Really?
I stick to that point because it's the most important point and I refuse to let it be obfuscated with a lot of tangents and strawmen arguments. When you have the superior ground, you don't surrender it.

Bush? So you don't think they would want to build this center if Bush was the President? Why not? Do you not feel they would have felt free to do so? Would that be better in your eyes?
I feel whoever the President is never came into the decision to building this center and there is nothing to suggest otherwise.
I have no idea where you're going with that. The imam worked for Bush as a representative of moderate Islam but now he's a radical with shadowy ties (one being a major stockholder of Fox News).
3. If you don't know, then you would never get it anyway. How do you think the hijackers got here in the first place? Magic?


So you have nothing, huh? Another Reed Richards stretch you can't really explain.
There are more restrictions now than there were when the 9/11 hijackers came to America so how have the restrictions made it worse?

The property owner has stated the intended purpose for the location.

The public officials have stated that the owner in acting within the law.

Those who don't like or who are not at ease with the plans for the property must accept that their position and platform has been established and debated.

Those folks can now go on with the rest of their lives being comforted by their exercise of free speech and their display of public dissent.

If these folks continue to voice their personal dissatisfaction, then at some level their public waling will reach a point of rebel rousing and/or just useless whining.

Let us move on.

:yes::yes:
 

MASTERBAKER

༺ S❤️PER❤️ ᗰOD ༻
Super Moderator
Man Curses Holocaust Survivor at the site of the proposed Ground Zero Mosque.
<object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/366_1282788878"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/366_1282788878" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" allowscriptaccess="always" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>
:angry::smh:
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Man Curses Holocaust Survivor at the site of the proposed Ground Zero Mosque.
:angry::smh:

What's the problem? Being a Holocaust survivor means you can't get cursed out for being a moron? Plus it looked like they were cursing each other out when the video started.

That whole exchange should have been beneath both of them but being a Holocaust survivor does not get you a pass when it comes to trying to oppress someone else.
 

Liquidheater

Potential Star
Registered
Man Curses Holocaust Survivor at the site of the proposed Ground Zero Mosque.
:angry::smh:

Both grown ass men were cursing at each other.

No blows were being thrown.

How does being a holocaust survivor factor into the equation of 2 men arguing at ground zero?

They were not arguing about the atrocities committed by some Germany Christians against some members of Germany's Jewish community.

This shit is so out of hand.

The older guy said that the Muslims can't be there unless it is over his dead body.

That's the fullness of intolerance.

Everybody needs to be a bit more civic minded and a lot less committed to a faction.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Both grown ass men were cursing at each other.

No blows were being thrown.

How does being a holocaust survivor factor into the equation of 2 men arguing at ground zero?

They were not arguing about the atrocities committed by some Germany Christians against some members of Germany's Jewish community.

This shit is so out of hand.

The older guy said that the Muslims can't be there unless it is over his dead body.

That's the fullness of intolerance.

Everybody needs to be a bit more civic minded and a lot less committed to a faction.




:yes::yes:
The same ones complaining about the one guy cursing out a Holocause survivor would have no problem crapping all over that old man if he was on the other side of the debate.
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
20100810_NY_City_mosque.small.prod_affiliate.91.jpg
 

nittie

Star
Registered
Integrity, character, has to be part of the debate. Respect for the people murdered by terrorist. If anything the arguement for the center should be based on what's right. For the last 20yrs America has manufactured reasons to kill Muslims. Allowing Muslims to build a center on that site is the least this country can do in the name of peace it says more about them than it does about U.S.
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
Integrity, character, has to be part of the debate. Respect for the people murdered by terrorist. If anything the arguement for the center should be based on what's right. For the last 20yrs America has manufactured reasons to kill Muslims. Allowing Muslims to build a center on that site is the least this country can do in the name of peace it says more about them than it does about U.S.

Okay.:yes:




Very deep.
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I'm sensing that this has turned into a Islam/anti-Islam situation.

So, now, I'm just going to say FUCK IT. Build the damn thing since the left supports it so much. In fact, how about HOLLYWOOD help fund the building of it?
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I'm sensing that this has turned into a Islam/anti-Islam situation.

So, now, I'm just going to say FUCK IT. Build the damn thing since the left supports it so much. In fact, how about HOLLYWOOD help fund the building of it?
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
I'm sensing that this has turned into a Islam/anti-Islam situation.

So, now, I'm just going to say FUCK IT. Build the damn thing since the left supports it so much. In fact, how about HOLLYWOOD help fund the building of it?

See, if you don't understand a thing or the thing isn't defined in your myopic view of America, its: fuck it; its leftist.

:smh:

QueEx
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
See, if you don't understand a thing or the thing isn't defined in your myopic view of America, its: fuck it; its leftist.

:smh:

QueEx


QueEx, the lord has blessed you with the patients of our ancestors. I refuse to respond to such idiocy.
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5"><center>
Latest mosque issue: The money trail</font size></center>



100903_mosque_site_ap_328.jpg

Following the money trail for the proposed mosque is adding to drama surrounding project. | AP
Photo



p o l i t i c o
By KENNETH P. VOGEL
& GIOVANNI RUSSONELLO
September 4, 2010


First there was the battle over the mosque. Now there’s the battle over who’s funding the mosque and the campaign against it.

The fact that it’s not easy to figure out where proponents and opponents of the mosque project in lower Manhattan are getting their money has given each side the opportunity to cast the other’s finances — and motives — in a sinister light.



The mosque money trail became an issue in its own right when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi outraged Park51 opponents by questioning their motives and calling for an investigation of their finances, later clarifying that the finances of both sides should be transparent as the Park51 plan to build an Islamic cultural center and mosque near ground zero has become the subject of a national debate.

“If I were a Democrat, I would be ashamed of what Pelosi said and embarrassed by it,” said David Horowitz, the former-leftist-turned-conservative, whose <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">David Horowitz Freedom Center has steered nearly $1 million over the past three years to Robert Spencer’s Jihad Watch group, one of the leading opponents of the lower Manhattan mosque plan</span>.

Horowitz bristled when asked about the source of those funds, asserting the media’s time would be better spent delving into the recent refusal by Park51’s developers to rule out accepting contributions from Saudi Arabia and Iran to help pay for the $100 million project, which would be located blocks from where the World Trade Center once stood.

“You ought to find out if Syria or Iran — whose president, or whatever the hell he is, has called for the wiping of America from the face of the earth — is behind [the mosque], but you’re doing an article about my funding,” Horowitz said. “I have nothing to hide about my funding. But it’s not parallel.”

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Mosque opponents have seized on the donations, totaling $900,000</span>, that the government of Qatar and a foundation run by Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">have made to nonprofits or projects headed by Feisal Abdul Rauf, the would-be imam of the Manhattan mosque</span>.

Former Rep. Rick Lazio, who has made his opposition to the mosque a centerpiece of his campaign for New York’s GOP gubernatorial nomination, has repeatedly called on his likely Democratic opponent, Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, to investigate the financiers of the mosque project.

“Are they radical organizations?” Lazio asked at a recent campaign stop. “Are they a foreign government?”

The website of the Coalition to Honor Ground Zero — a loose alliance of anti-mosque groups that sponsored a protest against Park51 in New York last month — features a “Follow the Money” page scrutinizing Rauf’s financing.



And blogger Pam Geller, who with Spencer is organizing a controversial anti-mosque rally for Sept. 11, alleged that the Obama administration was helping Rauf raise money for the mosque from “Muslim countries that are rife with jihad, jiyza and delusions of a global Islamic state” by bankrolling his recent trip to the Middle East. The State Department has said the purpose of the trip was to promote religious tolerance and pointed out that the imam was first recruited for the work by the Bush administration.

Mosque backers contend the allegations of nefarious foreign funding are an effort to apply a more politically palatable veneer to opposition that is based, at its core, on religious intolerance and is part of an effort to stoke Islamophobia and national security concerns to boost the GOP in the midterm elections.


“Today, it’s the funding; tomorrow it’ll be some other smear,” said Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Council on American-Islamic Relations, which this week rolled out an ad campaign addressing the mosque controversy</span>.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">CAIR, too, has come under fire from opponents for accepting $500,000 from bin Talal, among other foreign interests</span>. Hooper said mosque opponents “will use any talking point that they can muster to put forward their agenda of hate and to help those who share their beliefs,” including “a certain segment of the Republican Party.”

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">The left has made its own charges of deception against those financing anti-mosque efforts</span>. The White House-allied Center for American Progress last week suggested in a blog post that the registration of the Coalition to Honor Ground Zero’s website to a well-funded hawkish think tank indicated that defense contractors and deep-pocketed conservative donors were bankrolling the mosque opposition.

The think tank, the Center for Security Policy, which also produced an ominous Web ad opposing the mosque for the ground zero coalition, had a $4 million budget in 2008 (the last year for which it has filed tax returns).

Its chief operating officer, Christine Brim, declined to discuss her group’s donors or its support for the coalition but, in a blog post, criticized POLITICO for asking about funding for both mosque supporters and opponents — which she said “implied a moral equivalency between ‘both sides.’”

In fact, neither side’s funding is quite as clear cut or ominous as their critics allege.

In addition to the donations from Qatar and the Saudi prince, Rauf’s nonprofits — the Cordoba Initiative and the American Society for Muslim Advancement — also received a healthy dose of funding from mainstream American foundations that bankroll countless apolitical organizations.


The Carnegie Corporation of New York, the Deak Family Foundation, the Henry Luce Foundation, the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, the Swanee Hunt Family Foundation and the William & Mary Greve Foundation combined to give $650,000 from 2006 to 2008, according to foundation grant reports reviewed for POLITICO by the conservative Capital Research Center.

A similar Capital Research Center review of grants to CAIR found that it accepted $755,000 from 2002 through 2006 from the California-based Sabadia Family Foundation, though Hooper said it also has accepted smaller contributions from the embassies of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, which have purchased tables at CAIR fundraising events.



“As an American Muslim organization, we have to be extremely careful on [funding] issues because of the tactics used by the Muslim bashers out there,” Hooper said.

He asserted that rebutting allegations about the mosque and Muslims more generally “is sometimes more difficult and expensive than what Robert Spencer and Pam Geller do, which is the promotion of hate. They throw stuff on a blog, make accusations, spread disinformation and feed into existing veins of bigotry. And it doesn’t take a big budget to do that.”

Debra Burlingame, who runs the group 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America and has played a leading role in the Coalition to Honor Ground Zero, said her group has received administrative assistance from Brim’s, including for its anti-mosque efforts.

“It takes manpower to do that. I’m not even sure what that costs them,” said Burlingame, who stressed that the organization is “literally run out of our own pockets” and does not accept donations. “It is the reason why I believe we are so effective — because we can’t be bought.”

But there’s also big money behind the mosque opposition, as highlighted by the relationship between Horowitz’s Los Angeles-based nonprofit Jihad Watch — the website run by Spencer “dedicated to bringing public attention to the role that jihad theology and ideology play in the modern world” — and Joyce Chernick, the wife of a wealthy California tech company founder.

Though it was not listed on the public tax reports filed by Horowitz’s Freedom Center, POLITICO has confirmed that the lion’s share of the $920,000 it provided over the past three years to Jihad Watch came from Chernick, whose husband, Aubrey Chernick, has a net worth of $750 million, as a result of his 2004 sale to IBM of a software company he created, and a security consulting firm he now owns.

A onetime trustee of the hawkish Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Chernick led the effort to pull together $3.5 million in venture capital to start Pajamas Media, a conservative blog network that made its name partly with hawkish pro-Israel commentary and of late has kept up a steady stream of anti-mosque postings, including one rebutting attacks by CAIR against Spencer — who Pajamas Media CEO Roger Simon called “one of the ideological point men in the global war on terror.”



The Chernicks did not respond to messages relayed through Horowitz and a spokesman. But according to Horowitz, Joyce Chernick offered four years ago to fund Spencer and Jihad Watch, then functioning as a stand-alone nonprofit, under the Horowitz Center’s organizational umbrella.

Horowitz said Spencer, who is writing a pamphlet on the mosque for the Horowitz Center, is “part of our small but evidently effective family.”



The Freedom Center had a budget of $4.5 million last year, according to its tax filings, of which $290,000 came from the conservative Bradley Foundation, which also gave $75,000 to the Center for Security Policy last year. Horowitz has received an average of $461,000 a year in salary and benefits over the past three years, while Spencer has pulled in an average of $140,000, according to the center’s IRS filings.

But, Horowitz said, “Robert Spencer, David Horowitz, Pam Geller — we don’t do this for the money — we do this because we believe in it.”

The Freedom Center funds the Jihad Watch website and is paying for events promoting Spencer and Geller’s recently released book, but Horowitz said it is not paying for Spencer and Geller’s Sept. 11 protest or the controversial ads they placed on New York City buses, depicting a plane flying toward a burning World Trade Center next to a rendering of the Park51 building.

The ads were placed by a group called the Coalition for the Preservation of Ground Zero for a one-month run starting Aug. 16, at a cost of $8,000, according to New York’s Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

That coalition, which is separate from Burlingame’s, is a project of the American Freedom Defense Initiative, a nonprofit run by Geller and Spencer and incorporated at the same Bedford, N.H., address at which Jihad Watch was first registered in 2005.

Geller said the AFDI has raised money from individual donations and grants from nonprofit organizations, and Spencer last month told The Washington Post that he and Geller were able to raise $50,000 in recent months for taxi and bus ads.

In a Jihad Watch posting this week, Geller and Spencer called for donations to help fund their Sept. 11 rally and predicted costs could exceed $50,000.

The post concluded that “POLITICO is answering Nancy Pelosi's authoritarian, un-American call to investigate opponents of the mosque and is nosing around our finances — all they'll discover is that we have no huge donations and are relying on the support of free Americans to make this rally a reality.”

Correction: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that Aubrey Chernick had been a trustee of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/41767.html
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<IFRAME SRC="http://factcheck.org/2010/08/questions-about-the-ground-zero-mosque/" WIDTH=780 HEIGHT=1500>
<A HREF="http://factcheck.org/2010/08/questions-about-the-ground-zero-mosque/">link</A>

</IFRAME>
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I tell you the ironic thing about all of this.

Before I state this, I think Terry Jones is crazy. *If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the news*

However, I find it rather ironic that any left wing, free speech advocates aren't yelling the first amendment argument for this dude wanting to burn a Qu'ran on the anniversary of 9-11. Didn't we get a lecture about how the Mosque was a first amendment issue? Where's that argument for this lunatic pastor?

I thought sensibility doesn't matter when it comes to the constitution.

To me, building a Mosque on a site a few yards away from place that were attacked by an Islamic group is just as hateful as a fringe "Pastor" that wants to burn a Qu'ran. Yet, the Muslims get the first amendment argument?
 

thoughtone

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I tell you the ironic thing about all of this.

Before I state this, I think Terry Jones is crazy. *If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the news*

However, I find it rather ironic that any left wing, free speech advocates aren't yelling the first amendment argument for this dude wanting to burn a Qu'ran on the anniversary of 9-11. Didn't we get a lecture about how the Mosque was a first amendment issue? Where's that argument for this lunatic pastor?

I thought sensibility doesn't matter when it comes to the constitution.

To me, building a Mosque on a site a few yards away from place that were attacked by an Islamic group is just as hateful as a fringe "Pastor" that wants to burn a Qu'ran. Yet, the Muslims get the first amendment argument?

After your previous post on this thread, i actually thought you were becoming civilized. I guess I was wrong. Where is the equivalency of preventing a religious group from having a place of worship and someone desecrating a religious scared text. I know of no one threatening to put Jones in jail for burning the Qur'an. The issue is whether doing it is moral also will it result in an international scandal.
 

nittie

Star
Registered
Jones has a right to express himself even if it is as vile as burning the Quran. He's being pressured to stop the burnings the same way those property owners are being pressured not to build a center. There is a moral equivalency and a constitutional one also.
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
After your previous post on this thread, i actually thought you were becoming civilized. I guess I was wrong. Where is the equivalency of preventing a religious group from having a place of worship and someone desecrating a religious scared text. I know of no one threatening to put Jones in jail for burning the Qur'an. The issue is whether doing it is moral also will it result in an international scandal.

Are we talking about the First amendment, or are we talking about decency?

If we are talking about First Amendment protection, both parties have the right to do both things legally.

If we are talking about decency, both parties are equally disgusting IMO.

I would say this, if we do not stop as a civilization, both extreme parties will push this world into a war in the not so distant future. That means reasonable minds from ALL religions. That means the so-called "moderate" Muslims need to step up because they are the group that's absent as a whole.
 

Upgrade Dave

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Are we talking about the First amendment, or are we talking about decency?

If we are talking about First Amendment protection, both parties have the right to do both things legally.


Agreed, though Jones wouldn't have been allowed in the first place because he couldn't get a permit from his local fire dept for a public burning.

If we are talking about decency, both parties are equally disgusting IMO.
Strongly disagree. There is no moral equivalence.

I would say this, if we do not stop as a civilization, both extreme parties will push this world into a war in the not so distant future. That means reasonable minds from ALL religions. That means the so-called "moderate" Muslims need to step up because they are the group that's absent as a whole.


The moderate Muslims are building a community center in downtown Manhattan.
They're not absent at all, they're just not as attention whorish or violent as the more radical members as with all religions.
 

Alaskanredman

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Registered
What has the world come to when building a house of worship is the same as burning a religious text? :smh:

People are playing both sides of this.... But if people are going to say they don't see all Muslims as terrorist, explained to me what is disrespectful about build a mosque anywhere?
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Agreed, though Jones wouldn't have been allowed in the first place because he couldn't get a permit from his local fire dept for a public burning.


Strongly disagree. There is no moral equivalence.




The moderate Muslims are building a community center in downtown Manhattan.
They're not absent at all, they're just not as attention whorish or violent as the more radical members as with all religions.

What has the world come to when building a house of worship is the same as burning a religious text? :smh:

People are playing both sides of this.... But if people are going to say they don't see all Muslims as terrorist, explained to me what is disrespectful about build a mosque anywhere?

I think before we go any further with this debate, a vital question needs to be asked on this thread.

I'm getting the feeling that the supporters of this mosque *the ones who are defending it* does not believe that 9-11 was a terrorist attack. If so, it would explain the lack of sensitivity many show for that event. So, I'm going to ask this for understanding.

Do you, the supporters of this mosque, believe that 9-11 was an inside job by our government?

Before I debate any further, I need to know this answer supporters.

Thanks....
 

Lamarr

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Registered
The Rockefellor Mosque

Has anyone picked up on how the Rockefellers are the ones funding the Ground Zero Mosque? Has anyone noticed that the Imam involved in this is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.

I recommend that people here start calling it the Rockefeller Mosque.

I recommend that people start calling the Imam the CFR Imam or the Imam CFR.

The contributors to the Imam's organization

The CFR membership list

Ask yourself, How many non-profits does the Rockefeller Foundation support?
 

actinanass

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
You've been debating ?

QueEx

I haven't been debating you because you have no position.

Upgrade downright said that he thinks building the mosque right there is an ok thing. Come to think of it, didn't you get on me for asking the simple question of "why?"

Why build the mosque right there when you know it will be a hot button issue?

Why build a mosque where it would be hard for 60 percent of your faithful to get too?

Why open the mosque ON 9-11?

You know that pesky simple question "why?"....
 

Upgrade Dave

Rising Star
Registered
I think before we go any further with this debate, a vital question needs to be asked on this thread.


Do you, the supporters of this mosque, believe that 9-11 was an inside job by our government?

Thanks....



No, I do not. I believe there has been a massive cover up in the government's failure to do it's job and that the attack could have been averted but I do believe (until proven otherwise) that they were brought down by terrorists in planes.

The Rockefellor Mosque

Has anyone picked up on how the Rockefellers are the ones funding the Ground Zero Mosque? Has anyone noticed that the Imam involved in this is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.

I recommend that people here start calling it the Rockefeller Mosque.

I recommend that people start calling the Imam the CFR Imam or the Imam CFR.

The contributors to the Imam's organization

The CFR membership list

Ask yourself, How many non-profits does the Rockefeller Foundation support?


Or I could just keep referring to it as the Islamic community center or cultural center.
I didn't ask myself, I Googled it. The answer seems to be "a bunch".

Upgrade downright said that he thinks building the mosque right there is an ok thing. Come to think of it, didn't you get on me for asking the simple question of "why?"

Why build the mosque right there when you know it will be a hot button issue?
It didn't become a "hot button issue" until outsiders made it so.
And controversy, real or artificial, is not a reason to not do something lawful and moral.

Why build a mosque where it would be hard for 60 percent of your faithful to get too?

It's not a "mosque", just because 90% of the media is too lazy to get it right doesn't mean you have to play dumb too.
It's being built in the heart of Manhattan, that's a pretty good location for such an attraction. Cultural centers aren't just for one group, they're for anyone who wants to visit.

Why open the mosque ON 9-11?

Questions like this expose your lack of wanting to understand the entire issue. I recommend strongly you expand the number of sources you get your information from.

Here's a direct quote from FactCheck.Org
Is the center scheduled to open on Sept. 11, 2011?

Organizers say no. As best we can determine, the idea that the cultural center and mosque would open that day is unfounded speculation. Project organizers say that no official date has been set for the opening of the proposed center. Imam Rauf told Newsday back in May that it could take anywhere from 18 months to three years to raise the money to complete the project, and added that the center wouldn’t open on the anniversary of Sept. 11. Project organizers took to the social networking site Twitter as recently as Aug. 20 to knock down the claim, saying: "Reports that we will open on 9/11 or begin construction on 9/11 are false and inflammatory. Our timeline to build is 18 - 38 months."

The idea that the center and mosque would open on Sept. 11, 2011 — the 10-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks in 2001 — has been bandied about on blogs and discussion boards. The American Freedom Defense Initiative sponsored advertisements that may have also contributed to that thought. The initiative’s ads appeared on New York City buses and asked, "Why There?," with an image of a plane flying into a burning World Trade Center, next to a rendering of the proposed building with the words "September 11, 2011, WTC Mega Mosque."



You know that pesky simple question "why?"....


Why not? Some actual 9/11 victims' families are against it and some are for it while others are indifferent. As many as 300 people killed that day were Muslims, including first responders, is there sacrifice worth less?
 
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