I Been Having A Debate With My Homeboy About Weather, When His Career Is Over , Will He Make The Hall Of Fame. I Say Yes, What Do Yall Think.
Hines Ward Question
- Thread starter KINGFROMQUEENS
- Start date
If his career ended today, no. Needs a couple more seasons at the same level.
I THINK IF IT ENDED TODAY HE WOULD NOT MAKE IT RIGHT AWAY BUT I THINK DOWN THE LINE HE WOULD. HE MAY NOT HAVE ALL THE YARDS BUT THE GUY HAS BEEN A TOUCHDOWN MACHINE ON A TEAM THAT HAS ALWAYS HAD A LOT OF TOUCHDOWN THREATS, AND THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN RUN ORIENTED. THE RING AND THE SUPERBOWL MVP WILL HELP ALSO. I CANT EVEN REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I SAW HIM DROP A PASS. THE GUY IS MONY IN THE BANK.
A couple years. Most likely 3 to 4.
Yup...But,not the 1st go around.
nope, if it took them that long to get Michael Irvin in, Ward aint no shoe in..
Irvin had issues. He screwed himself. If Hines keep doing what he does especially NFL league work, he'll be in
hines Ward Already Has More Td's Than Irvin In Less Time Playing And Way More Rushing Yards, He Has Only 20 Less Receptions And He Is A 4 Time Pro Bowler. If Irving Is In The Hall , Ward Has To Be In. Barring Injury He Is Going To Have Way Better Numbers That Irving.
I say no because he's peers are so much greater. Torry, Marvin, Terrel, Randy, Reggie,Chad, hell even Fitzgerald, smith and Bouldin are going to surpass his numbers. He numbers won't even be in the top 20 receivers by 2015.
DONT FORGET THAT WARD HAS PLAYED HIS ENTIRE CAREER IN A RUN ORIENTED OFFENSE, AND HE HAS ALSO PLAYED ON TEAMS WITH MANY OFFENSIVE THREATS. PUT HIM ON ANOTHER TEAM AND HIS NUMBERS ARE JUST AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER THAN THESE GUYS.
CHAD DONT HAVE THE TD 'S HE HAS
WAYNE EITHER
EVEN THE GREAT HARRISONS STATS DONT BLOW WARDS STATS AWAY AND HARRISON HAS PLAYED 3 MORE YEARS.
WHEN ITS ALL OVER, HE IS GONNA HAVE BETWEEN 10,000 AND 12,000 YARDS REC, AND OVER 100 TD'S. THAT PLUS SUPERBOWL M.V.P. I THINK HE MAKES IT EASY.
some things for you to consider...lemme list some stats for you..
Hines Ward - (Average per Season - not counting 2 games of 08)873.7 Yards/Season, 6.5 TD/Season
10.2 Seasons(.2 stands for 2 games of 08 Season)(Total for Career) - 8872 Yards, 68 TDs
Chad Johnson - 1195 Yards/Season, 7 TD/Season
7.2 Seasons - 8424 Yards, 49 TDs
Reggie Wayne - 997.7 Yards/Season, 6.7 TD/Season
7.2 Seasons - 7163 Yards, 49 TDs
Marvin Harrison - 1162 Yards/Season, 10.25 TD/Season
12.2 Seasons - 14036 Yards, 123 TDs
as you can see, if you add 2 more seasons to Hines Ward with his averages, he still doesnt come remotely close to Marvin Harrison...and with 3 seasons to catch up on Ward, Wayne and CJ will have surpassed his Yards total easily, as well as his TD mark.
well, since most WR dont do so great until their magical 3rd season, ill wipe away both Ward and Harrison's rookie and sophomore season.
Hines Ward - 981.6 Yards/Season, 7.25 TD/Season
8.2 Seasons (No Rookie/Sophomore) - 7988 Yards, 64 TDs
Marvin Harrison - 1224.2 Yards/Season, 10.9 TD/Season
10.2 Seasons - 12334 Yards, 109 TDs
with 2 more seasons, this is what Hines Ward is projected to be at for his career...
10.2 Seasons - 9951 Yards, 79 TDs
so basically, what im trying to say is....when comparing players, know your shit.
You can't watch Hines Ward play and not believe this guy is special. He plays football like no other player in the game. Truly one of a kind. If I had to pick one reciever in this game and I had no clue who my QB would be, I roll with Hines because I know exactly what I'm going to get. He's a big game player. He blocks like a freakin' full back, he's got hands like glue and if the game is on the line he delivers. It's easy to be an elite WR when you have skills and an all-time great QB throwing you the rock. Harrison is out the Picture. Put Hines in Indy and Harrison in Pittsburgh and I personally think Hines numbers dwarf Harrisons now. Last 5-6 years I rank Hines #2 behind T.O.
THE QUESTION WAS DOES HE MAKE THE HALL NOT IS HE BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. I STARTED MAKING THE COMPARISONS WHEN PEOPLE STARTED THROWING OTHER PEOPLES NAMES OUT THERE. ALSO AGAIN, OUT OF ALL THESE OTHER GUYS HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS PLAYED HIS CAREER IN A RUN ORIENTED OFFENSE. THE STEELERS ARE ALL ABOUT THE RUN. THESE OTHER GUYS PLAY IN SYSTEMS THAT ARE ALL ABOUT PASSING.
SO BASICALLY WHAT I AM SAYING IS READ THE QUESTION AND UNDERSTAND IT BEFORE YOU START TALKING SHIT !!!!!!
YOU SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE. HINES HAS NEVER HAD THE ELITE QB TO PLAY WITH , AND HE DOES ALL THE LITTLE THINGS THAT THERE ARE NO STATS FOR. HE IS A BIG GAME PLAYER AND IF HE WAS IN ANOTHER SYSTEM HE WOULD BE THOUGHT OF BY EVERYONE AS A TOP 3 OR 4 GUY IN THE NFL. PLAYING FOR THE STEELERS HAS HELD HIM BACK AS FAR AS STATS. BUT AGAIN I ASK, WHEN DO YOU SEE THIS GUY DROP A PASS OR MISS A BLOCK, OR FUMBLE THE BALL ????
Wouldn't exactly call him a TD machine. He does alot of things well on a football field but there are alot of WRs that find the end zone as much as he does. There are alot of guys in every sport with that "big game" thing attached to their names that are not in the HOF. Being a "gamer" is not a prerequisite. It's about outstanding achievements. Not for a year or two. Or even 5 years. But achievement over the longest period of time. That's what determines a players' true greatness. Playing at the highest level consistently over the longest period of time.
And saying Ward's not on a pass oriented team sort of works both ways. Is he a good enough receiver to still get his numbers without that same running game? When you speak on HOF receivers, they almost all had to do that at one time or another. If you take Willie Parker and Jerome Bettis out the running game and put an extra DB on Hines Ward is he still a 4 time Pro Bowler?? I like the dude, but if you double cover him today, I don't think he gets that much shine
And making the Pro Bowl damn sure ain't a guarantee on getting in the hall either. Harry Carson was a 10 time Pro Bowl Selection who retired around 1988 and only got in there last year!!
James Lofton numbers blow Ward's numbers away and it took him something like 10 years to get in the HOF. He almost did not get there. I think he only had 5 years of eligibility left or something
I think if Ward continues on this path he will get in. But not yet
And saying Ward's not on a pass oriented team sort of works both ways. Is he a good enough receiver to still get his numbers without that same running game? When you speak on HOF receivers, they almost all had to do that at one time or another. If you take Willie Parker and Jerome Bettis out the running game and put an extra DB on Hines Ward is he still a 4 time Pro Bowler?? I like the dude, but if you double cover him today, I don't think he gets that much shine
And making the Pro Bowl damn sure ain't a guarantee on getting in the hall either. Harry Carson was a 10 time Pro Bowl Selection who retired around 1988 and only got in there last year!!
James Lofton numbers blow Ward's numbers away and it took him something like 10 years to get in the HOF. He almost did not get there. I think he only had 5 years of eligibility left or something
I think if Ward continues on this path he will get in. But not yet
NOT SAYING HE IS GOING IN RIGHT AWAY, I JUST THINK HE WILL MAKE IT DOWN THE ROAD. I DO STICK TO MY GUNS AS FAR AS THE TEAM HE PLAYS ON. YOU PUT HIM WITH A STAR QB IN ANOTHER SYSTEM AND HE HAS THE NUMBERS YOU GUYS ARE LOOKING FOR EASY. ALL THE OTHER GUYS MENTIONED HERE HAD GOOD , SOME EVEN GREAT BACKS ON THEIR TEAMS, BUT THEY WERE NOT IN RUN 1 ST PASS 2 ND OFFENSES. HE ALWAYS HAS BEEN IN THAT TYPE OF O AND HAS STILL PUT UP VERY GOOD NUMBERS. LETS SEE WHAT HE DOES THIS YEAR SINCE THE STEELERS SAY THEY WANT TO PASS MORE. HE HAS 3 TDs ALREADY.
LOFTON- 16 SEASONS PLAYED
WARD- 11 (INCLUDING THIS ONE) AND COUNTING
LOFTON- 233 GAMES PLAYED.
WARD- 156 GAMES PLAYED.
LOFTON- 764 REC
WARD- 730 REC
(LOFTON HAS 34 MORE REC IN 77 MORE GAMES)
LOFTON- 75 TDs
WARD- 68 TDs
7 more tdS in 77 more games.
HOW ARE THESE NUMBERS THAT BLOW HIM AWAY. HE IS GOING TO SURPASS THESE NUMBERS THIS YEAR, IN 5 LESS SEASONS. LOFTON ONLY BLOWS HIM AWAY IN YARDS, BUT AGAIN HE HAS 5 MORE SEASONS. WHO KNOWS WHAT WARD WILL PUT UP.
L
I think Hines Ward is a stand up dude and truly dedicated receiver...I think he deserves it someday and I think he's healthy enuf and skilled enuf to keep it up a couple more years.
Quik question:
James Lofton played in 3 Superbowls but never got a win?...no ring?
Is that what the HOF looks at too?
Quik question:
James Lofton played in 3 Superbowls but never got a win?...no ring?
Is that what the HOF looks at too?
THANK YOU. WARD ALREADY HAS BETTER NUMBERS THAN SWANN AND BY THE END OF THIS SEASON HE WILL HAVE BETTER NUMBERS THAN STALLWORTH.
I think he'll get in easy because that nigga take the hard hits that most receivers wont even dare take or just get layed out from i think that will come into play when considering him for the hall of fame
He already has more TD's, total receiving yards, & receptions than Stallworth.
***Keep in mind that the Steeler offense is designed to RUN FIRST, yet he has the numbers that he has.
GUARANTEED!
You are making the mistake of counting the last 5 years of Lofton's career. When he was just hanging on after some serious surgery. And as a testament to how good he was as a receiver, he still was able to maintain a pretty good level of performance. And that was AFTER the blown out. But he was damn sure not the same player he was previously once he got to Buffalo. Although he still did pretty well. He was also approaching 40 years old.
Also, Lofton was not a possession receiver like Hines Ward is. Lofton was a straight up bonafied game breaker. So he was not utilized in the same manner. BUT, he was the type of player that DID get double teamed for a significant portion of his career. And Green Bay had no running game for quite a few years (after Jon Brockington got hurt)
But just out of curiousity, if you take stack up his first 8 seasons against the first 8 season of Ward what's it look like?? I bet if you look at ALL the numbers that define a great receiver, you'll be surprised.
Michael Irvin got delayed because of his issues off the field. If he had been a squeaky clean type of guy off the field, "The Playmaker" would've gone in on the first ballot. And no, I'm not a Cowboys fan. If you look at Hines Ward's body of work you can make the argument he goes in. He's not the flashy Jerry Rice/Lynn Swann type of WR. Hines is a complete reciever. He can catch the deep ball, he can get YACs, he's an excellent blocker. Hines' biggest asset to me is, he never developed that dreaded discease that some recievers get. "goincrossthemiddleitis". I'd put him in but, I'm biased. I'm a Steelers fan.
To be fair to Stallworth though, Hines isn't playing across from another HOF reciever though. Stallworth had to share the spotlight and the ball with Lynn Swann.
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i understood the question and voted on it...i think he might make it, not the 1st time but probably like in 5-8 years.
Yyou stated that Marvin Harrison's #s dont blow away Hines Ward's #s, when in fact they do....
You also said that Reggie Wayne and Chad Johnson wont catch Ward in TDs, which they will...
SO BASICALLY WHAT I AM SAYING IS READ WHAT YOU FUCKING WROTE AND UNDERSTAND IT BEFORE YOU START TALKING SHIT !!!!!!
RECEPTIONS:
LOFTON - 466
WARD -576 ADVANTAGE WARD.
YDS:
LOFTON - 8,816 ADVANTAGE LOFTON
WARD - 7,030
TOUCHDOWNS
LOFTON - 45
WARD -52 ADVANTAGE WARD.
****NOTE****
WARD DID NOT CATCH A TD IN HIS 1ST SEASON AND ONLY HAD 4 IN 2000 AND 2001 AND HE STILL HAD MORE TD'S THAN LOFTON.
THESE ARE THE 1ST 8 SEASON STATS.
HARRISON'S NUMBER DONT BLOW HIM AWAY AND AGAIN HARRISON HAS PLAYED LONGER. MAYBE IN TOUCHDOWNS BUT THATS IT. ARE HIS NUMBERS BETTER YES, BUT NOT BLOWING HIM AWAY.
I NEVER SAID THAT. RE READ THE THREAD SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BULLSHIT YOU ARE TALKING. DAMN YOU STILL AINT PAYING ATTENTION, BUT THANKS FOR MAKING THIS SIDE BAR EASY FOR ME. LOL
So Lofton had 100 less receptions for 1800 more yards in 8 years. In those same years, Ward basically had 1 more TD per season.
Here are a couple more notes:
Lofton's first 8 seasons came in the late 70's and early 80's. An era where teams did not throw that 1 yd TD pass that is so prevalent today and since the mid 90's. Back then, teams basically RAN that ball into the endzone from inside the 5 yard line or kicked the FG. (Not saying that all the TD's that Ward caught are 1 yarders, but he does have an abundance of very short TD catches. Meanwhile, if you check Lofton's, you are not likely to find that many TDs under 10 yards)
One other factor to consider: In Lofton's first few seasons, he only would've played 14 games at most to Ward's 16 games. Not exactly sure when the NFL changed to 16 game seasons but those few games might've brought the numbers closer together
Of course, you can't really compare because they played in different eras. Although not that different. Players todays might be faster (maybe), but the game itself was way more physical than it is today (especially for DBs)
A LOT OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS DEBATABLE AND SOME OF IT IS NOT TRUE. WHEN LOFTON CAME INTO THE NFL THEY WERE PLAYING 16 GAMES JUST LIKE THEY ARE NOW. TEAMS RUNNING INTO THE END ZONE , THERE IS NO DATA ON WHAT THEY DID MORE, BUT WHEN YOU WATCH A LOT OF THOSE OLD NFL HIGHLIGHT REELS, I SEE A LOT OF PASSING PLAYS FOR TOUCHDOWN. SHORT PASSES TOO. I THINK THATS MORE YOUR OPINION , THAN ACTUAL FACT.
ALSO I THINK YOU ARE WAY WRONG ON THE DB THING. YEA DB'S BACK IN THE DAY MAY HAVE BEEN TOUGHER, BUT THEY DID NOT HIT ANY HARDER THAN THE ONES DO TODAY, AND THEY DAMN SURE WERE NOT AS FAST AS THESE GUYS ARE TODAY. HAVE YOU SEEN SOME OF THE DEVASTATING HITS GOING ON THE THE LAST TEN YEARS. THESE GUYS ARE STRONGER AND FASTER THAN BACK IN THE DAY, AND WARD BLOCKS AND GOES OVER THE MIDDLE AGAINST THESE GUYS. DONT GET ME WRONG I AM NOT SAYING WARD IS BETTER THAN ANYONE, BUT TO THINK THAT HE IS NOT IN THE SAME CLASS OF SOME OF THESE GUYS, TO THINK THAT HE IS NOT AN ELITE W/R IS CRAZY TO ME.
OK I DID SOME MORE RESEARCH ON YOUR POINT ABOUT SHORT TOUCHDOWNS. AS FAR AS LOFTON VS. WARD, LOFTON HAS A LOT MORE T/Ds over 30 yards than ward DOES, BUT WARD HAS QUIT A BIT ALSO, PROVING EVEN MORE THAT HE CAN DO IT ALL. THE SHORT PASS (WHICH A LOT OF W/R STRUGGLE TO CATCH BTW) OR THE DEEP THREAT. THE CAT IS NICE.
The defensive backs today are really not faster or stronger than the ones who played in the 70's and 80's. The players who are faster (but not necessarily stonger) are the bigger players like the LINEBACKERS and even some of the defensive linemen like a Javon Kearse. It's not the faster guys who've brought up the level of speed, it's the ones slower ones. And that's mainly due to chemicals.
But when I say it was more physical in the 70's - MID 80's, I am referring more to the RULES than to the players. Today, there are special rules to protect the QBs. There are also special rules to protect WRs. You can't even touch a WR after he's 5 yards from scrimmage. Also, once the ball is in the air, if you put your hands on a WR it's an automatic 1st down. You can't even guard the WR anymore, you have the guard the BALL (which to me is kinda stupid). If you guard the man and do not watch the ball in the NFL (which is the easiest way to do it), it is a PENALTY. Also, you can't hit a WR with your head down, it is considered "dirty" and you might even get thrown out the game. Whereas in Lofton's era, it was par for the course. ALL the best DBs hit that way. You also can't hit a man above the shoulders, you can't hit a man below the knees. The list of shit you can't do today is stupid (and bordering on pussified...Australian Rugby players certainly think it is). It reminds me of the movie Robocop 2, where they had the chic who gave him a new list of directives. The list was so long, he could not do his job. Mofo had to fry that shit out of his brain in order to function properly. That's sort of the way it is today with all these damn rules.
And the 1 yd pass is really not that much of a pyhsical struggle. All the WR needs is a height advantage and he usually wins. Thats why Keyshawn Johnson was so effective at it. Also Plaxico Burriss. DBs are usually the smallest cat on the team. Pretty easy to take advantage of
The game itself was more of a power game in those days. Teams RAN the ball inside the 5. Winning teams did anyway. Of course not everyone did. Usually the losers. If you could not run, you could not win. Which is why those Packers teams Lofton played on usually didn't. He was all they had.
And plz note I say 70's to MIDDLE 80's. Because the late 80's is when all this shit was starting to change for the worse. So you did have teams who started doing that pussy type of 1 yd pass in the 80's. Specially, Elway and the Broncos
But when I say it was more physical in the 70's - MID 80's, I am referring more to the RULES than to the players. Today, there are special rules to protect the QBs. There are also special rules to protect WRs. You can't even touch a WR after he's 5 yards from scrimmage. Also, once the ball is in the air, if you put your hands on a WR it's an automatic 1st down. You can't even guard the WR anymore, you have the guard the BALL (which to me is kinda stupid). If you guard the man and do not watch the ball in the NFL (which is the easiest way to do it), it is a PENALTY. Also, you can't hit a WR with your head down, it is considered "dirty" and you might even get thrown out the game. Whereas in Lofton's era, it was par for the course. ALL the best DBs hit that way. You also can't hit a man above the shoulders, you can't hit a man below the knees. The list of shit you can't do today is stupid (and bordering on pussified...Australian Rugby players certainly think it is). It reminds me of the movie Robocop 2, where they had the chic who gave him a new list of directives. The list was so long, he could not do his job. Mofo had to fry that shit out of his brain in order to function properly. That's sort of the way it is today with all these damn rules.
And the 1 yd pass is really not that much of a pyhsical struggle. All the WR needs is a height advantage and he usually wins. Thats why Keyshawn Johnson was so effective at it. Also Plaxico Burriss. DBs are usually the smallest cat on the team. Pretty easy to take advantage of
The game itself was more of a power game in those days. Teams RAN the ball inside the 5. Winning teams did anyway. Of course not everyone did. Usually the losers. If you could not run, you could not win. Which is why those Packers teams Lofton played on usually didn't. He was all they had.
And plz note I say 70's to MIDDLE 80's. Because the late 80's is when all this shit was starting to change for the worse. So you did have teams who started doing that pussy type of 1 yd pass in the 80's. Specially, Elway and the Broncos
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i can agree with you that it was a tougher game back then, i dont agree with the db's being faster or stronger, but who knows. maybe when we have these talks about players we should only compare players from the same era.
as far as he short pass , watch how many w/r cant catch the short pass. its not that easy. every week you see them dropped all over the nfl. ward dont drop no passes. long, short, across the middle, whatever, he gets the job done, and i think his numbers, his total body of work, his off field character, his ring, and his mvp will earn him a spot with the great ones. i think that we will revisit this in a few years and cats will look at his final numbers and see what i am getting at.
oh and staying healthy is a part of it also. if you cant stay healthy then to me you aint doing your job as a professional athlete, so that should not always be used as an excuse as why a players numbers are down. i am not talking about something like what happened to the n.b.a.'s bernard king, but more like a ken griffey jr type thing. the guy just relied on his talent and never worked out. who knows the numbers he might have put up.